I wrote in your other copy thread the pros and cons I see with the two, so I won't here. That said, I will say, with my experience with the bonded ring, it came in handy quite often. Pulling the perfect spell out of thin air, even though you didn't prepare it is amazingly useful and also makes preparing a touch less tense.
Another thing to consider, is book keeping. With a second familiar, you're going to have a second, smaller sheet of stats to keep up on including used abilities for the day (if they had any) HP, etc... This isn't to say that familiar's are bad at all of course, they can be amazing, it's just whether or not you want a second block of stats to always be aware of.
Also, check availability of magic items in your campaign. If your DM is the type where finding a wand is difficult, but you still want a familiar, you may want to look more into some that make great scouts or have some useful abilities more so then their wand usability.
I stand corrected regarding conc checks.
It's very unlikely most GMs will go after your bonded item, especially if you make it something concealable. That said, it's important to note that if the GM IS out to get you, losing your bonded item will suck way more than losing your familiar. That's all I was saying. If you're losing your bonded item, it's probably not because of sunder.
I stand corrected regarding conc checks.
It's very unlikely most GMs will go after your bonded item, especially if you make it something concealable. That said, it's important to note that if the GM IS out to get you, losing your bonded item will suck way more than losing your familiar. That's all I was saying. If you're losing your bonded item, it's probably not because of sunder.
Well, some of the creatures he represents in the campaign are against you. And the fact that this is one of the two choices every wizard makes seems like it would make it a well known weakness.
If you aren't carrying a pet (and you are as wealthy as most adventurers), then you most likely have a major weak point.
I mean, what self respecting assassin's guild, for instance, wouldn't try to steal an arcane bond when it is contracted to kill a wizard.
They would probably also try to find a way to subtly kill your familiar too (since the extra perception bonuses from the extra feat and extra set of eyes and all). Maybe an evil ranger with a dog that just goes 'oops, my pet gets excitable when it sees small animals'.
I guess that depends on your level of magic and education. There's no Golaripedia to tell the assassins that all wizards have have arcane bonds (except the ones who don't).
If it IS a well known weakness IC, every caster should buy a scorpion pet or three just to use as decoys. And wear 80 rings, each Magic Aura'd into looking super duper magic.
This is the kind of false verisimilitude that causes all of my casters to wear 5 spell component pouches. If it's a well known weakness, there are simple and effective countermeasures every caster can take.
I guess that depends on your level of magic and education. There's no Golaripedia to tell the assassins that all wizards have have arcane bonds (except the ones who don't).
If it IS a well known weakness IC, every caster should buy a scorpion pet or three just to use as decoys. And wear 80 rings, each Magic Aura'd into looking super duper magic.
This is the kind of false verisimilitude that causes all of my casters to wear 5 spell component pouches. If it's a well known weakness, there are simple and effective countermeasures every caster can take.
I am just assuming that the base class is the bog standard for that class- ie- the majority of people coming out of wizard colleges.
So if the guild has either had to target a wizard, or faced a wizard bodyguard, then it would be relevant (and hell, the assassins would do well to have a wizard as a member, or at least as a quick source of scrolls). And I think that something like that (a typical ritual and practice among a well known subculture) would be covered by either a knowledge (local) or (arcane).
But yes, that would be a decent defense. Going with that total exaggerated package would tell them that you probably have an arcane bond (since you are that defensive about it), but it does complicate the matter.
I honestly can't see why anyone would go for the familiar option. The bonded item gives you one free spell that you don't have to prepare, and you're playing a class that can't burn bad choices for something useful unlike the cleric or druid. Maybe if you know exactly what's coming to get you the familiar is more helpful for the wand spam thing but I sure wouldn't take it! Then again I'm never playing a wizard. I like having my best tools usable when I need them, right then and there, rather than having to predict what the GM is going to throw at me today and picking the wrong options.
I am just assuming that the base class is the bog standard for that class- ie- the majority of people coming out of wizard colleges.
So if the guild has either had to target a wizard, or faced a wizard bodyguard, then it would be relevant (and hell, the assassins would do well to have a wizard as a member, or at least as a quick source of scrolls). And I think that something like that (a typical ritual and practice among a well known subculture) would be covered by either a knowledge (local) or (arcane).
But yes, that would be a decent defense. Going with that total exaggerated package would tell them that you probably have an arcane bond (since you are that defensive about it), but it does complicate the matter.
I think any assassins guild worth hiring would know about Arcane Bonds, let's be honest, the source of a wizard's power would be hard to keep a secret unless you're playing a campaign where magic is very rare.
Having said that, you don't even have to try that hard to hide your Bonded Item. If you're an assassin targeting a wizard, you can target the staff, the dagger, the amulet, or one of his rings ... or you can just attack him - what do you do? You COULD waste a couple of turns trying to sunder the correct item (and remember, just because you spend a turn trying to sunder it doesn't mean you succeed) or you could just Death Attack the sucker from the beginning and the job's done.
Once again, once they're a mid-level wizard, even if you DO sunder the Bonded Item, it's not the world-ending debuff it was in early levels.
I honestly can't see why anyone would go for the familiar option. The bonded item gives you one free spell that you don't have to prepare, and you're playing a class that can't burn bad choices for something useful unlike the cleric or druid. Maybe if you know exactly what's coming to get you the familiar is more helpful for the wand spam thing but I sure wouldn't take it! Then again I'm never playing a wizard. I like having my best tools usable when I need them, right then and there, rather than having to predict what the GM is going to throw at me today and picking the wrong options.
I think the familiar probably has a lot more utility outside of combat.
Aside from the passive buff it gives you, most familiars can go unnoticed more easily than a party full of adventurers (although not rogues etc). They have an empathetic link from first level, learn to speak with the caster at 5th level, can speak with animals of it's kind at 7th level and eventually you can even scry on your familiar once per day for free.I can see this kind of extra perception being super useful in the right campaign.
Also just having an extra set of eyes and ears (and hands?) can be super useful in the right circumstances.
Having said that, I agree that the extra high spontaneous spell is pretty amazing, and it's really hard to compete with that.
Again, I'd probably pick the one that fits my character concept rather than looking too deeply into the game mechanics. That's just me though, I'm more into the role-play than min-maxing for the most powerful character.
At this point I'm also wondering if Shinma the Lost is reading these, or if we're all just having a big old debate for our own entertainment?
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My take on Familiar v. Bonded item:
O) Your familiar can be killed.
Balance against:
F) Your item can be sundered.
O)Broken bonded item is concentration check on everything to be able to cast.
- If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell. The DC for this check is equal to 20 + the spell's level. If the object is a ring or amulet, it occupies the ring or neck slot accordingly.
F) You need to find a new familiar.
O) Your Bonded Object can allow you to cast one spell known per day
Balance against:
F) Your familiar can use wands to cast as many spells per day as you have stored in Wands.
O) You can enchant your Bonded Item to some form of magic item proper for the slot it occupies.
Balance against:
F) Your familiar can provide a bonus akin to a feat (+4 Initiative) but are much more limited in what they might grant. All grant Alertness Feat when close to you.
O) Your bonded item has very little utility use
Balance against:
F) Your familiar can[List]Act as a scout.
Aid Another on your or your allies rolls
Deliver Touch Spells
Has the same Skill Ranks as you, so probably good at something.
What you gain with a Familiar:
1) A potential +2 bonus to any and all skill checks you make (your familiar has your ranks, it can even aid another for Knowledge skills) via Aid Another action; and,
2) Extra Standard Action every round. Your familiar can even use this to cast spells from wands; and,
3) +2 to Perception (Increases to +4 if you have 10 or more ranks in the skill); and,
4) +2 to Sense Motive (Increases to +4 if you have 10 or more ranks in the skill); and,
5) +4 to Initiative, OR +2 to one save, OR +2-4 to a very limited choice of skills.
I am sure I missed some bonuses in there.
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I think any assassins guild worth hiring would know about Arcane Bonds, let's be honest, the source of a wizard's power would be hard to keep a secret unless you're playing a campaign where magic is very rare.
Having said that, you don't even have to try that hard to hide your Bonded Item. If you're an assassin targeting a wizard, you can target the staff, the dagger, the amulet, or one of his rings ... or you can just attack him - what do you do? You COULD waste a couple of turns trying to sunder the correct item (and remember, just because you spend a turn trying to sunder it doesn't mean you succeed) or you could just Death Attack the sucker from the beginning and the job's done.
Once again, once they're a mid-level wizard, even if you DO sunder the Bonded Item, it's not the world-ending debuff it was in early levels.
Actually, the way you would do this is send an Unchained Rogue with skill unlocks in Appraise and Improved Steal and Greater Steal as feats.
Now you can...
Recognize the most expensive item on the Wizards person. Bet you that's the Bonded Item.
Make a Steal CMB check against a Wizards CMD to take it without their noticing.
If you do it right, none of this has even provoked combat.
Bonus points if you've done enough reconnaisense ahead of time to know what type of item the bonded item is, so you don't have to wonder between Amulet and Ring.
Not that a GM should ever target their player like that.
I think any assassins guild worth hiring would know about Arcane Bonds, let's be honest, the source of a wizard's power would be hard to keep a secret unless you're playing a campaign where magic is very rare.
Having said that, you don't even have to try that hard to hide your Bonded Item. If you're an assassin targeting a wizard, you can target the staff, the dagger, the amulet, or one of his rings ... or you can just attack him - what do you do? You COULD waste a couple of turns trying to sunder the correct item (and remember, just because you spend a turn trying to sunder it doesn't mean you succeed) or you could just Death Attack the sucker from the beginning and the job's done.
Once again, once they're a mid-level wizard, even if you DO sunder the Bonded Item, it's not the world-ending debuff it was in early levels.
Actually, the way you would do this is send an Unchained Rogue with skill unlocks in Appraise and Improved Steal and Greater Steal as feats.
Now you can...
Recognize the most expensive item on the Wizards person. Bet you that's the Bonded Item.
Make a Steal CMB check against a Wizards CMD to take it without their noticing.
If you do it right, none of this has even provoked combat.Bonus points if you've done enough reconnaisense ahead of time to know what type of item the bonded item is, so you don't have to wonder between Amulet and Ring.
Not that a GM should ever target their player like that.
Still, appraise does seem like a counter.
Sure, there is a simple counter to that counter (not enchanting your ring- making it cheap and shoddy)...but that nerfs one of the advantages of bonded objects (ability to enchant your item without feats). Plus, it eats up an item slot.
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I think any assassins guild worth hiring would know about Arcane Bonds, let's be honest, the source of a wizard's power would be hard to keep a secret unless you're playing a campaign where magic is very rare.
Having said that, you don't even have to try that hard to hide your Bonded Item. If you're an assassin targeting a wizard, you can target the staff, the dagger, the amulet, or one of his rings ... or you can just attack him - what do you do? You COULD waste a couple of turns trying to sunder the correct item (and remember, just because you spend a turn trying to sunder it doesn't mean you succeed) or you could just Death Attack the sucker from the beginning and the job's done.
Once again, once they're a mid-level wizard, even if you DO sunder the Bonded Item, it's not the world-ending debuff it was in early levels.
Actually, the way you would do this is send an Unchained Rogue with skill unlocks in Appraise and Improved Steal and Greater Steal as feats.
Now you can...
Recognize the most expensive item on the Wizards person. Bet you that's the Bonded Item.
Make a Steal CMB check against a Wizards CMD to take it without their noticing.
If you do it right, none of this has even provoked combat.Bonus points if you've done enough reconnaisense ahead of time to know what type of item the bonded item is, so you don't have to wonder between Amulet and Ring.
Not that a GM should ever target their player like that.
Still, appraise does seem like a counter.
Sure, there is a simple counter to that counter (not enchanting your ring- making it cheap and shoddy)...but that nerfs one of the advantages of bonded objects (ability to enchant your item without feats). Plus, it eats up an item slot.
Or wear gloves
I think any assassins guild worth hiring would know about Arcane Bonds, let's be honest, the source of a wizard's power would be hard to keep a secret unless you're playing a campaign where magic is very rare.
Having said that, you don't even have to try that hard to hide your Bonded Item. If you're an assassin targeting a wizard, you can target the staff, the dagger, the amulet, or one of his rings ... or you can just attack him - what do you do? You COULD waste a couple of turns trying to sunder the correct item (and remember, just because you spend a turn trying to sunder it doesn't mean you succeed) or you could just Death Attack the sucker from the beginning and the job's done.
Once again, once they're a mid-level wizard, even if you DO sunder the Bonded Item, it's not the world-ending debuff it was in early levels.
Actually, the way you would do this is send an Unchained Rogue with skill unlocks in Appraise and Improved Steal and Greater Steal as feats.
Now you can...
Recognize the most expensive item on the Wizards person. Bet you that's the Bonded Item.
Make a Steal CMB check against a Wizards CMD to take it without their noticing.
If you do it right, none of this has even provoked combat.Bonus points if you've done enough reconnaisense ahead of time to know what type of item the bonded item is, so you don't have to wonder between Amulet and Ring.
Not that a GM should ever target their player like that.
Yeah, if your GM's targeting you that hard, it's either important to the plot that you lose your item, or your GM doesn't know how to GM. I've had GM's that play against the players in the past (usually it's a player's first time as GM), and it's always terribly boring and we never get past the first chapter in their "EPIC WORLD-SPANNING CAMPAIGN".
If it IS important to the story to nerf the wizard that hard, chances are "losing the Bonded Item" is just the mechanic the GM is choosing to use this time.
That was a pretty good build you made for stealing items from wizards, but allow me to counter with a build for ridding them of a familiar.
Class: Ranger
That's pretty much it, I'm sure you can fill in the details.
What you gain with a Familiar:
1) A potential +2 bonus to any and all skill checks you make (your familiar has your ranks, it can even aid another for Knowledge skills) via Aid Another action; and,
2) Extra Standard Action every round. Your familiar can even use this to cast spells from wands; and,
3) +2 to Perception (Increases to +4 if you have 10 or more ranks in the skill); and,
4) +2 to Sense Motive (Increases to +4 if you have 10 or more ranks in the skill); and,
5) +4 to Initiative, OR +2 to one save, OR +2-4 to a very limited choice of skills.I am sure I missed some bonuses in there.
So at best with a Failiar you're gaining +2 to Skill Checks (and a bunch of extra knowledge skills), +4 Perception & Sense Motive (on top of the +2 to all skills), +4 Initiative (or another choice) and an extra standard action.
Most of that is good, but not earth-shattering. But an extra standard action is AMAZE-BALLS.I'd say at low levels, the familiar is definitely better, but at high levels you have to compare that with an extra casting of Mage's Disjunction, Gate, Time Stop, Wish, or whatever your preferred spell is (you don't even have to choose, it's a spontaneous cast).
Also, the down-side of losing your Bonded Item is horrible at low levels, but gets less and less important as you reach higher levels.
THEREFORE:
Low levels, Familiar is better.
Mid levels, it's kind of even.
High Levels, Bonded Item is better.
Exactly where the shift from "Low" to "Mid" to "High" occurs is probably fairly subjective, depending on your preferences and play-style.
(In the examples I gave, I guess "High" levels start at Level 17 when you get your first 9th level spell. 8th level are pretty powerful too, it just depends what you think is more powerful than the extra familiar abilities).
I say this every post, but I'd go with the one you like more thematically, the bonus you get is exactly that - a bonus. Treat it like one and you won't feel like you're missing out.
If the GM is out to get the wizard he can just make the bad guy sunder his handy heaversackt( it acts like bag of Holding, meaning if it breaks everything inside is lost forever) and take away the Spellbook.
But we dont play with that kind of GMs where i am from.
Would have liked to see some more Bonded Item options. The concept behind Bonded Witch was a step in this direction, but it definitely stumbled in the execution, seeming haphazardly thrown together. Gravewalker and especially Cartomancer are much better put together thematically, although Gravewalker is pretty much villain-only, and Cartomancer has a serious bug until you get to 3rd level (DON'T use your Deadly Dealer ability at 2nd level, or you risk hosing your Spell Deck -- yes, you could use a different Harrow Deck for this purpose, but that's asking for a Yosemite Sam-style mixup). Of course, none of these are Wizards, but they demonstrate the principle.
There's one thing that I've noticed when looking at the Bonded Object vs Familiar debate myself that I'm kinda surprised hasn't come up in the discussion at all (or if it has I've just missed it):
The Familiar grants a good amount of benefits up-front, but two very important things: it's Natural Armor and INT score (plus some other abilities), are tied to the level of the class that grants it. If you decide to go into a prestige class, the power of your familiar is gonna be stunted until you can start putting levels into that class again (if ever).
The Bonded Object, on the other hand, provides all of its benefits up-front and scales in power with the level of your spells, which is something that typically will continue to scale even if you multi-class/prestige.
When I was looking at building a Mystic Theurge a good while back (when the early entry SLA trick was still valid), I noticed that my familiar wouldn't be getting stronger again until 13th level or so (when I'd be done with MT and could start taking levels of Wizard again); this would have left it really weak and in a lot of danger of dieing to anything we might fight at the time.
The Bonded Object would only lose out on a single level of spell progress (the one level I took of Cleric) but continue to be useful as I gained more spell levels via MT. Having it be a ring meant I could keep it safe on my person and generally untargetable.
There's one thing that I've noticed when looking at the Bonded Object vs Familiar debate myself that I'm kinda surprised hasn't come up in the discussion at all (or if it has I've just missed it)That's been mentioned at least once.
Multiclassing changes the question outright though, and goes both ways-- if I was going Wizard into Witch, or Eldritch Guardian Fighter, or something else that does have a familiar but not spellcasting, than the reverse applies.
Certain types of multiclassing answer the question for you, one way or the other, but they're the exception rather than the norm.
It's been mentioned, but I don't think anyone's put this much detail in.
You're right, for normal Multi-classing they're both kind of rubbish (unless you're getting another class with a familiar), but for Prestige Classes the Bonded Item keeps scaling with your Prestige Class (Via spell progression).Either way they're fairly specific examples, but since we've talked in depth about everything else, we should mention this as well.
There's one thing that I've noticed when looking at the Bonded Object vs Familiar debate myself that I'm kinda surprised hasn't come up in the discussion at all (or if it has I've just missed it):
{. . .}
I went into a good bit of detail on it in this post (on the first page of the thread).
^It does, but it can also be an enchanted item, and as noted in posts above, in many cases you can put the enchantment on yourself even if you do not have the Item Crafting feat.
^It does, but it can also be an enchanted item, and as noted in posts above, in many cases you can put the enchantment on yourself even if you do not have the Item Crafting feat.
And at cost, too.
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One thing nobody mentioned yet about the arcane bond on a weapon is that you might end up rendered powerless by social customs.
There's a story with that. My first PFS character, a wizard, I decided against a familiar, mainly because I didn't want to deal with yet another set of stats. A free +1 weapon right at the start looked inviting, so I went with a quarterstaff.
So, we go on an adventure to a land where horrible things happen very often. We go to an audience with a potentially hostile local noble and we have to disarm at the gate.
Me: This is my walking stick, I need it for walking.
Guard gives a dubious look...
Our Gorumite Cleric (holding up his greatsword): This is also a walking stick, us Gorumites like them large, metallic and sharp.
Our Ranger (with his bow): This is a walking stick, we Elves like them wooden with this bit of string.
A guy who looks suspiciously like Grima Wormtongue walks in on us and makes sure we have nothing.
So don't pick a weapon, ring is the best (and if you want to be always ready, Eschew Materials with Spell Mastery for critical spells).