Legends of Tomorrow


Television

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

SHINY!

Liberty's Edge

I think it's fair to say you have to suspend your disbelief pretty hard with LoT (or Flash for that matter, but that's another story).

That doesn't mean I don't really enjoy these shows though and if I'm willing to accept there are a couple of demi-god, half hawk, quasi-immortal people running around in the first place then I can't get too hung up on Jackson being a technical whizz.

Besides maybe Gideon has some kind of futuristic Clippy to help him out.


That's not how suspension of disbelief works. I'm not supposed to accept clear logical inconsistencies just because some fantastic elements exist. It has been neither stated nor implied that Jackson has such an ability or help, so he doesn't.


Krensky wrote:
Jackson is basically Cyborg with Stein instead of implants.

He hasn't retconned anyone from the Justice League yet, at least.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Also, we don't really know what a normal timeship's compliment is supposed to look like. I don't get the sense that a Time Master is also a skilled engineer, so maybe they have really good repair manuals that would allow a non-engineer to actually make a good amount of repairs, and would therefore allow a skilled (not super human, just skilled) mechanic to therefore make repairs.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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Current theory after last night's episode/next episode's teaser:

Kronos is actually Heatwave. After surviving execution from Captain Cold's cold ray, the time masters recruited him as a bounty hunter, since he has the capacity for (and love of) violence combined with already knowing that time travel and the time masters exist. Since we've never seen his face under the mask, he could be anyone, and I'm now suspecting it's someone we know.


JoelF847 wrote:

Current theory after last night's episode/next episode's teaser:

Kronos is actually Heatwave. After surviving execution from Captain Cold's cold ray, the time masters recruited him as a bounty hunter, since he has the capacity for (and love of) violence combined with already knowing that time travel and the time masters exist. Since we've never seen his face under the mask, he could be anyone, and I'm now suspecting it's someone we know.

That'd be pretty cool, actually... It's be refreshing to see Heatwave actually a have a point for once. XD


JoelF847 wrote:

Current theory after last night's episode/next episode's teaser:

Kronos is actually Heatwave. After surviving execution from Captain Cold's cold ray, the time masters recruited him as a bounty hunter, since he has the capacity for (and love of) violence combined with already knowing that time travel and the time masters exist. Since we've never seen his face under the mask, he could be anyone, and I'm now suspecting it's someone we know.

That would be a damn good twist. Here is hoping the writers thought of it too


I... still stand that Heatwave is a TERRIBLE choice for Time Traveling ANYTHING. Too violent, too brutal to be trusted with NOT destroying timelines on a whim.

Even if Rip was stupid or desperate enough to recruit him for his mission.... the TIME MASTERS should have a higher standard.


phantom1592 wrote:
Even if Rip was stupid or desperate enough to recruit him for his mission.... the TIME MASTERS should have a higher standard.

Perhaps they saw a need to fight fire with, er, fire.


Looks something like this

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I kind of hope they time travel outside the 20th Century sometime soon.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

SmiloDan wrote:

I kind of hope they time travel outside the 20th Century sometime soon.

They have already - 2046 Star City.

There's supposed to go to the old west somewhat soon and meet Jonah Hex


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I'm not buying that Snart killed Rory st all. The ending of the episode was framed very ambiguously....we saw Snart fire, but we didn't see the results of the shot.

Of course, had I been in charge, I would had them get rid of him in the easiest possible way....he wanted to stay in 2046....what's the harm? Especially since that's a future they intent to try and make sure doesn't happen. Forcing him to leave, and then killing him seems rather ridiculous.

By the way, it's VERY strange to refer to another character as Rory when Arthur Darvill is one of the stars of the show.


Norman Osborne wrote:

I'm not buying that Snart killed Rory st all. The ending of the episode was framed very ambiguously....we saw Snart fire, but we didn't see the results of the shot.

Of course, had I been in charge, I would had them get rid of him in the easiest possible way....he wanted to stay in 2046....what's the harm? Especially since that's a future they intent to try and make sure doesn't happen. Forcing him to leave, and then killing him seems rather ridiculous.

By the way, it's VERY strange to refer to another character as Rory when Arthur Darvill is one of the stars of the show.

Agree on ALL that.

A few posts up I saw a spoiler stating that they didn't think Rory was dead... and my first thought was 'Well YEAH... it's HIS ship!" Then I saw the episode and facepalmed :D

Soooooo is there any legitimate reason whatsoever that they snuck Atom in as a patient... and didn't have little tiny man hiding in her purse?

Atom should be EVERYONE's backup on solo missions and just... 'hide' somewhere. Stay put if it goes well... Jack-in-the-box if things go south?

I like the show... but there is a lot of people acting really dumb at multiple times... it's fraying a couple of nerves.

Like taking Rory back to the chaos land. A much better choice then kill him dead.


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I'm pretty sure they put the B-team writers on Legends of Tomorrow. Same ones that mangled season 3 of Arrow.


I totally agree about dropping heatwave off in 2046.

I also agree about the group's tactics. Maybe Snart will start offering advice they'll all take.

Seriously:
1: Why do they keep splitting up Firestorm?
2: Yes, Atom is the perfect infiltration option.
3: Kendra, you can FLY! Get a ranged weapon, you suck at H-t-H.
4: Rip, you have all the time in the universe....take a few years and get some military/leadership training!

Also, my daughter had a comment about the episode and Jax little 'incident'.

Spoiler:
She thinks it would have been much cooler if he'd kept the transformation (in a limited fashion) and became a firebird when mearged.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Copyright infringement:
Can't have 2 Phoenixes!

Liberty's Edge

Spiral_Ninja wrote:

Seriously:

1: Why do they keep splitting up Firestorm?
2: Yes, Atom is the perfect infiltration option.
3: Kendra, you can FLY! Get a ranged weapon, you suck at H-t-H.
4: Rip, you have all the time in the universe....take a few years and get some military/leadership training!

These are all meta answers but here it goes.

1. Budget. Firestorm's CG is expensive.
2. Idiotball plus Atom's the team's comic relief. He can't be seen being competent on a regular basis. Note: In this week's episode he actually was competent (for an entire episode even!) so maybe things will turn around for him in the near future.
3. From what I understand of her ill-defined powers Kendra's got some form of super strength. Hand to hand should be where she shines.
4. Rip is arguably the main character of the show. He's got the most screen time and story arcs dedicated to him. As such he's got to screw up all the time that he has stuff to improve on.


My issue with 2 and 4 is that while that's certainly an answer...it's still pretty bad writing.

Making the intelligent, heroic (though inexperienced) character turn from well-intentioned and reasonably competent to the one with the Idiot Ball glued to his hands is just...frustrating.

Likewise, you can have characters grow and develop without them being outright incompetent to start. The ONLY time Rip has shown forward thinking has been in the space pirate episode. The man is a Time Master! He's supposed to be an elite! Why does he keep making rookie mistakes?

The Firestorm thing could also be handled better, writing wise. But at least we get to see Stein kick ass sometimes.

3 makes perfect sense. Kendra (or, at least Shayera) is trained in hand to hand. She doesn't know how to shoot a bow or gun or anything.

The frustrating part about THAT is, of course, that she should be BETTER at hand to hand. She's had literally multiple lifetimes to practice! She should be one of the better fighters on the team, even discounting super strength.

Liberty's Edge

I agree it's bad writing but these are the sorts of problems the CW's writers consistently struggle with. Look at how they treat the Flash. He often forgets how his own powers work just so the plot can happen.


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True, though I cut them some more slack there for the simple fact that Super Speed is a classic Story Breaker Power.

Believably writing challenges for the Flash is difficult, to put it mildly.


Sundakan wrote:

True, though I cut them some more slack there for the simple fact that Super Speed is a classic Story Breaker Power.

Believably writing challenges for the Flash is difficult, to put it mildly.

It'd be a lot easier if they didn't decide to scale Flash's speed to "fast-enough-to-go-back-in-time" during the very first season. They could have kept Flash's speed at the level of the Justice League cartoon, for example.

It's infuriating to see Barry act like a freaking idiot every single episode where there's a fight. They could at least try to make easy opponents sat least seem kinda threatening, and remember that physical combat is not the only way villains can attack the hero. The Joker is never shown to be anywhere near Batman's level for combat skills, but he's always a threat. They could do something similar to that for opponents such as Captain Cold and Boomerang. Or at least let them use their powers to create some sort of protective shield around themselves, so that just punching them at twice the speed of sound isn't necessarily feasible or a good idea.

It's amazing how LoT manages to have even worse fights! They have a bunch of superpowered heroes and they all act like idiots both in and out of combat. They don't even try to explain why they don't go for the obvious alternative (e.g.: why not go back to Egypt, one day before Rip and Savage's first encounter and kill him? If that fails, do it the day earlier. Repeat until necessary)

-.-'


Lemmy wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

True, though I cut them some more slack there for the simple fact that Super Speed is a classic Story Breaker Power.

Believably writing challenges for the Flash is difficult, to put it mildly.

It'd be a lot easier if they didn't decide to scale Flash's speed to "fast-enough-to-go-back-in-time" during the very first season. They could have kept Flash's speed at the level of the Justice League cartoon, for example.

That Flash actually wasn't any slower. The JL cartoon just better justified it...going at full speed tended to cause LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTS of collateral damage (like phasing through objects making them EXPLODE), so he deliberately held back all the time, just like Superman did until the last episode.

The one time he DID cut loose, he almost merged with the Speed Force permanently, so decided it was a bad idea to go that fast for more than one reason.


Yeah... Kinda... Even with the "he's holding back" explanation, there many scenes that imply they are not as Powerful as their comics counterparts... Specially Superman.

Either way, my point still stands.


My latest peeve is with the intro. "I gathered an elite team of heroes...".

No, Rip, no you did not. The Avengers are an elite team of heroes. The Justice League is an elite team of heroes. You gathered a terrible team of heroes, because they rarely work well as a team.

If the line said "I gathered a team of elite heroes," I'd give it a bit more leeway. Where the emphasis lies now is wrong.


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Well, I mean...none of those words are correct.

He didn't "gather" them (he kidnapped them).

They're not a team (that requires working together).

They're not elite (literally the reason he kidnapped them is because they're overall worthless to the timeline).

And they're not heroes (see above, plus, you know, the thief and assassin being the core members of the crew).


Sundakan wrote:
And they're not heroes

Some of them are, even if they're not yet very good at it.

But yeah, agreed on all other points. I'm almost disappointed that the show has been renewed for next season.

But hey, this is the network that also just renewed Supernatural. Will that @#^%$ thing never die?


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Hey, this season of Supernatural is legitimately good. Like, best it's been since season 4 good.

Liberty's Edge

Sundakan wrote:
He didn't "gather" them (he kidnapped them).

Umm... no. He introduced himself and asked them to join him. He did misrepresent several details, but the only one 'kidnapped' was Jackson... and that was Stein's doing.

Quote:
And they're not heroes (see above, plus, you know, the thief and assassin being the core members of the crew).

I'd say Rory was the only one where a case couldn't be made for calling him a 'hero'. For example, the 'assassin' joined that organization unwillingly, was only a member for a few years, spent most of that time in training, left as soon as she could get away, and then spent her time stopping criminals and saving innocents until she was killed. Sounds like a fairly standard comic book 'hero' backstory to me.

All that being said, yeah I laugh every time the intro calls them an 'elite team'.


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Well, I thought last week's episode was above average compared to the previous few, but I'm still mad at their "tactics" and the choices that they make.

I watched this episode with my 6 (soon to be 7) year old daughter. It was interesting that I could teach her about how people were intolerant in the past of interracial marriage and homosexuality (though I still think that when you are trying to "blend in", you don't have your backstory be an interracial couple in the 50's, especially when the wife is the one that Savage wants to find and kill).

Anyway, as my daughter was watching the show and she saw Snart blast a guy with his gun, she was like: "Wait, that guy has a freeze gun? Why don't they just have him shoot Savage?" Indeed.

I mean, they were a little bit more tactical, but they had the knife, knew where Savage was living, and had the element of surprise. "We need to figure out what Savage is up to at the hospital". Why? Your mission is to kill him, not to dick around with all of his little plots throughout history.

Give Cold's gun to Ray, have him hide in Kendra's pocket at least during the meeting. Pop out, freeze his legs, blade to the heart. Game over.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I just started watching "The 100" and at least it makes sense for them to make really bad decisions. They're teenaged criminals who are out in the woods for the first time ever. But the grownups on LoT don't have that excuse.


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mbauers wrote:

Well, I thought last week's episode was above average compared to the previous few, but I'm still mad at their "tactics" and the choices that they make.

I watched this episode with my 6 (soon to be 7) year old daughter. It was interesting that I could teach her about how people were intolerant in the past of interracial marriage and homosexuality (though I still think that when you are trying to "blend in", you don't have your backstory be an interracial couple in the 50's, especially when the wife is the one that Savage wants to find and kill).

Anyway, as my daughter was watching the show and she saw Snart blast a guy with his gun, she was like: "Wait, that guy has a freeze gun? Why don't they just have him shoot Savage?" Indeed.

I mean, they were a little bit more tactical, but they had the knife, knew where Savage was living, and had the element of surprise. "We need to figure out what Savage is up to at the hospital". Why? Your mission is to kill him, not to dick around with all of his little plots throughout history.

Give Cold's gun to Ray, have him hide in Kendra's pocket at least during the meeting. Pop out, freeze his legs, blade to the heart. Game over.

...

o_O

She's absolutely right.

Well, that's it then. If a first grader can find the problem in your story, then you've pretty much bottomed out on your writing. Time to pack it in.


Troodos wrote:

This could be a chance to bring in DC characters from other times: Jonah Hex, the Demon Knights, the Justice Society etc.

Also, may I say this: THE LAST CENTURION WILL NEVER DIE

I've got a BBC souvneir book that used pre=production scrips for material. That's how I know that they were going to orginally refer to Rory as "The Constant Warrior". Last Centurion is infinitely more cooler.


Rip Hunter is supposed to be one DC's Universe's truly manipulative bastards. I'm not seeing it carried well here.

Dark Archive

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Rip Hunter is supposed to be one DC's Universe's truly manipulative bastards. I'm not seeing it carried well here.

I never cared for Rip Hunter, and wanted Booster Gold in this role (even if he'd be pretty redundant in a group with Iron Man What Shrinks Occasionally).

Seeing what they've done with it, I'm glad I didn't get what I want, since it would have probably been a truly sucktacular Booster Gold...

It's pretty much become the Sara and Snart show, with those annoying other people...


Set wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Rip Hunter is supposed to be one DC's Universe's truly manipulative bastards. I'm not seeing it carried well here.

I never cared for Rip Hunter, and wanted Booster Gold in this role (even if he'd be pretty redundant in a group with Iron Man What Shrinks Occasionally).

Seeing what they've done with it, I'm glad I didn't get what I want, since it would have probably been a truly sucktacular Booster Gold...

It's pretty much become the Sara and Snart show, with those annoying other people...

If they weren't allowed to use Blue Beetle (subbing in the Atom) it's almost a given they weren't going to be allowed to use his partner in bwahaha either.

Sovereign Court

Oh come on. Stein was pretty darn cool in the last few episodes. Especially the one with the time pirates.


Hama wrote:
Oh come on. Stein was pretty darn cool in the last few episodes. Especially the one with the time pirates.

Agreed. If anything i'd say it was the Snart/Stein hour. Sara has been remarkably uninteresting the whole series.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Rip Hunter is supposed to be one DC's Universe's truly manipulative bastards. I'm not seeing it carried well here.

We already saw in the pilot that he manipulated the team with the premise of them being legends in the future. Could he be playing a long con now, manipulating them with seemingly poor leadership somehow? Maybe as a way to force them to step up and become leaders by filling the vacuum, rather than rebelling at his orders, and only then will they be ready to take down Vandal Savage.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
He didn't "gather" them (he kidnapped them).
Umm... no. He introduced himself and asked them to join him. He did misrepresent several details, but the only one 'kidnapped' was Jackson... and that was Stein's doing.

I missed this before.

Think back to the start of the first episode though. When he raygunned them and dragged them onto his ship. =)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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Spoiler:
JoelF847 wrote:

Current theory after last night's episode/next episode's teaser:

Kronos is actually Heatwave. After surviving execution from Captain Cold's cold ray, the time masters recruited him as a bounty hunter, since he has the capacity for (and love of) violence combined with already knowing that time travel and the time masters exist. Since we've never seen his face under the mask, he could be anyone, and I'm now suspecting it's someone we know.

BAM! Called it!

Sovereign Court

I suspected it too.

Dark Archive

JoelF847 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

BAM! Called it!

Perhaps you should start writing for the show. I mean it couldn't hurt.


Hama wrote:
I suspected it too.

Ditto! At least as early as just after he lets the pirates aboard the Waverider.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Marik Whiterose wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

BAM! Called it!

Perhaps you should start writing for the show. I mean it couldn't hurt.

I'd accept that job offer in a heartbeat! Know anyone who works for CW?


Huh... Last episode was actually pretty good. I'm pleasantly surprised.


JoelF847 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

BAM! Called it!

Sigh... you did indeed. Still stand by that it was a terrible idea. I find myself with zero respect for these 'time masters'. For people interested in preserving the timeline and stopping people from messing with it... Cronos leaves a trail of bodies everywhere he goes.

I remember once he 'checked the records' to see if they were 'important' or not... but most of the time he's just blasting everyone in sight. He causes more trouble than Rip could ever do.

Sovereign Court

So

Spoiler:
Talia Al'ghul in 1960. Maybe Batman is an old man in this verse.


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Hama wrote:

So

** spoiler omitted **

Or...

Spoiler:
Maybe she drank from the Lazarus pit?

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