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@ElterAgo
First, your world need to be fitted for high level characters from the start, not retrofitted after your PC got a few levels. ...
Granted. But there is already a ‘standard’ world in existence. There are literally dozens of threads that will tell you the captain of an army might be 6th level. A royal champion would be 8th level. There is almost no one in the world over level 10. Except for bad guys that are for some reason waiting until the PC’s are high level before they start causing problems. People start play in that world because it is the ‘standard’ and most of us don’t have the skill to make our own world that makes more sense than that ‘standard’ world. Of if we have the skill we don’t have the time.
If you use any published material at low level for example, it just doesn’t match up very well with high level stuff. Apparently even within a given AP.
Just off the top of my head, I can think of 2 published where the ultimate BBEG has divinations, predictions, auguries, whatever that clearly indicate the PC’s are a threat to his very survival. So confident in the truth of that, he sends assassins to kill them across the nation or world on multiple occasions. Yet for some reason he only sends very weak, inexperienced, and small numbers of assassins after them. Yet at the end of the thing you find out BBEG has literally hundreds of agents more powerful than what he sent and dozens that are much more powerful than what he sent. He actually doesn’t seem to have any agents as weak as what he has been sending. Why? Ok, maybe the first time. But after the PC’s had survived the first couple of tries. Wouldn’t he have said, “Enough of this! Lord Death Slayer take your 50 most powerful minions, teleport over there, and personally ensure I don’t have to worry about this anymore! Report back to me by supper!” Apparently not.
…
On the second issue, the answer is the same os why wasn't Elrond but Frodo carring the ring. Or why in the company there was Legolas instead of Thranduil, why gandal was always somewhere else ecc. ...
That really isn’t. That is some low level guys helping out with a critical side mission while the big guys play ball.
Remember this is a series of novels written by what a lot of people consider to be one of the genre’s greatest authors ever.Even then, some of us couldn’t help but think of why? Why did the BBEG wait until the ring resurfaced to attack. If he had attacked a year earlier, 5 years earlier, or a generation earlier; he apparently would have been unstoppable.
…
The short of it, is that there are always bigger troubles. And on the other hands, you always need fresh blood to rise up through the ranks.
Also, even if 17 level wizards may be aroud, that doesn't mean they are actually available. If you are a 17 level character, you definatly can't be bothered to interrupt your planeshaping resarch to come solving some low level trouble.I encourage you to read the thread that was linked in the first page. ...
Yes, a minor problem is not worth their time. I get that. But that low level issue was apparently wiping out the nobility, turning the entire capitol into zombies, opening a portal to the abyss, eliminating magic from the land, etc… That’s not really a minor problem anymore. It just might be worth 15 minutes of the arch mage’s time to ensure it didn’t happen.
Nope. Instead he decides to just hope that the beginner schmucks won't let his family, home, nation, or magical power won't be wiped out.I will try not to spoil anything for those that haven’t played it yet. There is an AP. A major city has at least 1 cleric capable of casting true resurrection. Several good churches are at least powerful enough that there is fierce competition for influence.
Bad guys have ‘for a long time’ been taking over the government, nobility, and military. A first level detect evil finds which ones have been taken over. A low DC sense motive check reveals people are not behaving properly. In the first couple of days, the PC’s will almost effortlessly trip over dozens of clues that almost anyone should be able to pierce together.
Yet until the PC’s get there, not one of the churches has noticed anything wrong let alone done anything about it.
…
No one ever suggested that running a high level campaign was easy. But the classic complaint that "the games break" is only because people refuse to adapt to the new paradigm. ...
Actually, yes a lot of people do say it is easy. There was another of those just a little ways up thread.
I think a lot of people don’t ‘refuse to adapt’ as much as they can’t figure out how to do it, it is too late in their campaign when they realize it isn’t set up right, or just don’t have that much time to completely re-write everything published for a hobby.…
On a last note, if I remember correctly, in the BECMI starting 10th level you had to deal with characters having castles, reigns, wizard towers, and warriors having armies in the thousands of mens. It's just that right now people complain much too easly.
You only had thousands of troops if you spent all your money on them. That did occasionally happen because some GM’s would let you amass huge amounts of money, but you couldn’t buy magic items. So you quite literally had almost nothing else to do with it.
People complained just as much back then. It was just about different things. As I recall, one of the big ones was that even 20th level characters couldn’t challenge the gods.
.
.
Again, I'm not saying it is impossible to have a good high level game. But it is much harder to achieve than a good low-mid level game.
the OP asked why their aren't many high level games. I believe that is a large part of why. The stuff that is published, the stuff accepted as 'standard,' the rules themselves, what people expect at various levels, and just plain person skill sets make it more difficult.
Granted. But there is already a ‘standard’ world in existence. There are literally dozens of threads that will tell you the captain of an army might be 6th level. A royal champion would be 8th level. There is almost no one in the world over level 10. Except for bad guys that are for some reason waiting until the PC’s are high level before they start causing problems. People start play in that world because it is the ‘standard’ and most of us don’t have the skill to make our own world that makes more sense than that ‘standard’ world. Of if we have the skill we don’t have the time.
But... that's a world building issue with the setting the GM has either created or selected. Not an innate issue of high level itself.
Granted. But there is already a ‘standard’ world in existence. There are literally dozens of threads that will tell you the captain of an army might be 6th level. A royal champion would be 8th level. There is almost no one in the world over level 10. Except for bad guys that are for some reason waiting until the PC’s are high level before they start causing problems. People start play in that world because it is the ‘standard’ and most of us don’t have the skill to make our own world that makes more sense than that ‘standard’ world. Of if we have the skill we don’t have the time.But... that's a world building issue with the setting the GM has either created or selected. Not an innate issue of high level itself.
Granted. But it is one of the things that contribute to many people not wanting or not feeling able to play at high levels. Especially if they start at low levels.
I have DM'ed one group from level 1 to level 37 using 3.5 rules. I DM'ed another group from level 1 to level 25 again using 3.5 rules.
Likely I will not do so again, the reason for it is two fold:
1. I am older and busier at work and I have a child, high level games require substantial amounts of work by the DM and I simply haven't the time anymore.
2. With so many adventures out there which are written for low level characters, I would like to be able to run through some of them. Though my group may switch to Cthulhu or Star Wars in the next several years as we have been playing D&D for such a long time.
One adventure to get it right was "Diplomacy" (Dungeon #144), IIRC, in which an 18th level party is trying to outmaneuver various other bidders for a demi-plane full of diamonds or something. It provides a reason for high-level enemies to be in one place, minimizes mindless combat and endless slog-fests, and assumes that everyone is actually using the abilities they have (you're pretty much assumed to have a diplomancer bard backed by major arcane and divine support).
Funny you should mention this adventure Kith, I ran this one and I recommend it, really fantastic.
The idea of teleportation inspiring lawlessness... is completely alien to me
Larry Niven has writing about that specific topic for the last 40 years.
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Negative levels aren't even an issue in pathfinder for someone dying and coming back to life, it's so easy to get rid of it.
Anyway...high level plays, this what going on in my current campaign and I'm a player:
-Our Paladin, if the enemy is evil...smite evil+Litany of righteousness make short work of said opponent, being able to ignore the enemy DR is a big deal for brute monsters.
-Our fighter, Smash with his hammer, he is using the barbarian archetype to wield two two handed hammers. He has many sundering feats as well, usually breaking the enemy weapon is not a problem.
-Cleric , i leave 1/4th of my spell slots open, so I can prepare all of them for 15 min during the day, if we ever need a specific spell(Like life bubble..yeah did get to use that spell once). I can currently cast miracle so might as well say that I have all the spells that matter.
-2 wizards, one is a controller and the other is a blaster. The controller is focusing on spells dcs and it is virtually so high, that baleful polymorph is almost guaranteed to work most of the time. The blaster is using admixture+dazing spells of course, so big strong hits.
We are near the end of it and must say, finding anything challenging is pretty hard now.
Negative levels aren't even an issue in pathfinder for someone dying and coming back to life, it's so easy to get rid of it.
Anyway...high level plays, this what going on in my current campaign and I'm a player:
-Our Paladin, if the enemy is evil...smite evil+Litany of righteousness make short work of said opponent, being able to ignore the enemy DR is a big deal for brute monsters.
-Our fighter, Smash with his hammer, he is using the barbarian archetype to wield two two handed hammers. He has many sundering feats as well, usually breaking the enemy weapon is not a problem.
-Cleric , i leave 1/4th of my spell slots open, so I can prepare all of them for 15 min during the day, if we ever need a specific spell(Like life bubble..yeah did get to use that spell once). I can currently cast miracle so might as well say that I have all the spells that matter.
-2 wizards, one is a controller and the other is a blaster. The controller is focusing on spells dcs and it is virtually so high, that baleful polymorph is almost guaranteed to work most of the time. The blaster is using admixture+dazing spells of course, so big strong hits.
We are near the end of it and must say, finding anything challenging is pretty hard now.
This is why it is so hard for a DM. The DM in many if not most instances, needs to re-stat villains of pre-written adventures at high levels become a cake walk. If the DM shifts the needle too far the other way, the party is just crushed, tis a tough balancing act :-)
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If you use any published material at low level for example, it just doesn’t match up very well with high level stuff. Apparently even within a given AP.
Just off the top of my head, I can think of 2 published where the ultimate BBEG has divinations, predictions, auguries, whatever that clearly indicate the PC’s are a threat to his very survival. So confident in the truth of that, he sends assassins to kill them across the nation or world on multiple occasions. Yet for some reason he only sends very weak, inexperienced, and small numbers of assassins after them. Yet at the end of the thing you find out BBEG has literally hundreds of agents more powerful than what he sent and dozens that are much more powerful than what he sent. He actually doesn’t seem to have any agents as weak as what he has been sending. Why? Ok, maybe the first time. But after the PC’s had survived the first couple of tries. Wouldn’t he have said, “Enough of this! Lord Death Slayer take your 50 most powerful minions, teleport over there, and personally ensure I don’t have to worry about this anymore! Report back to me by supper!” Apparently not.
Here's how I see this. The divining BBEG uses his divinations to find threats to his rule. There are 170 low level parties that may someday thwart his plans.(low level groups are a dime a dozen) So he sends out his numerous minions to handle the threat. Most come back but 23 of the parties survived. So he sends his more powerful minions to deal with the greater nuisance, and so forth. By the time the actual true threat of the PC party is narrowed down, and he's sending his big guns at them, they've had time to level up and can meet the threat. Also all the lesser guys are hiding or dead by now. It all depends on how you spin it.
I once ran a campaign where the BBEG killed all the PCs personally in the first session due to a prophecy. The campaign transitioned to one where the PCs were spirits in the afterlife who eventually returned to kill the villain.
Remember this is a series of novels written by what a lot of people consider to be one of the genre’s greatest authors ever.
Even then, some of us couldn’t help but think of why? Why did the BBEG wait until the ring resurfaced to attack. If he had attacked a year earlier, 5 years earlier, or a generation earlier; he apparently would have been unstoppable.
Well, it's explained in some of the books that Sauron was pretty depowered. He needed time to build up his strength and armies, and it was actually the Ring resurfacing that spurred him to act before he was really ready even then.
From a deeper point of view, good always just barely wins because it was all in the song before creation that Melkor messed with but couldn't actually change. Middle Earth really has predestination.
I will try not to spoil anything for those that haven’t played it yet. There is an AP. A major city has at least 1 cleric capable of casting true resurrection. Several good churches are at least powerful enough that there is fierce competition for influence.
Bad guys have ‘for a long time’ been taking over the government, nobility, and military. A first level detect evil finds which ones have been taken over. A low DC sense motive check reveals people are not behaving properly. In the first couple of days, the PC’s will almost effortlessly trip over dozens of clues that almost anyone should be able to pierce together.
Yet until the PC’s get there, not one of the churches has noticed anything wrong let alone done anything about it.
How does detect evil help here? Anyone under level 5 doesn't ping, and even being Evil isn't actually a crime in most areas. Heck, you can be LE and obey the letter of the law while getting your rocks off as the bureaucracy messes with people's lives. Evil can be just petty dbaggery making people's lives miserable.
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From all these stories, then, I think I've been lucky. The three DMs that I've played with over the years (and continue to play with) all enjoy upper-level play just as much as the lower.
Personally, I find the 9-18 range to be the sweet spot for most campaigns, but we also have a strong tendency to carry over characters, and grow campaigns until we reach a point where we're all satisfied with where our characters are.
Our longest running campaign (in 3.5) reached somewhere over 45th lvl, and actually resulted in all the characters taking up positions in the pantheon of Gods (several replaced deities outright, others, such as mine, became heralds of sorts. That was an awesome campaign that spanned years, both in and out of game, and remained challenging right up to the end. Almost got TPKed a few times, but we managed to pull through. And surprisingly, I think the number of times we had to resurrect a party member could probably be counted on one hand. We did resurrect an entire village that was destroyed as a result of our actions, but our own lives? Stayed alive by our own means, thank you very much.
I've often wished for epic level rules for Pathfinder, as in an honest to goodness Epic Level Handbook. But we'll make do without it.
Anyway, in Pathfinder, our campaigns seem to end somewhere in the 21-25 range. That always seems like a nice place to end. And it gives a chance to put some of those capstone abilities to the test. No point in getting them if one isn't going to do at least a *little* adventuring after that point, hmmmm?
I know in our planning sessions, we almost always pick somewhere in that range for our end goal.
Here's how I see this. The divining BBEG uses his divinations to find threats to his rule. There are 170 low level parties that may someday thwart his plans.(low level groups are a dime a dozen) So he sends out his numerous minions to handle the threat. Most come back but 23 of the parties survived. So he sends his more powerful minions to deal with the greater nuisance, and so forth. By the time the actual true threat of the PC party is narrowed down, and he's sending his big guns at them, they've had time to level up and can meet the threat. Also all the lesser guys are hiding or dead by now. It all depends on how you spin it. ...If you use any published material at low level for example, it just doesn’t match up very well with high level stuff. Apparently even within a given AP.
Just off the top of my head, I can think of 2 published where the ultimate BBEG has divinations, predictions, auguries, whatever that clearly indicate the PC’s are a threat to his very survival. So confident in the truth of that, he sends assassins to kill them across the nation or world on multiple occasions. Yet for some reason he only sends very weak, inexperienced, and small numbers of assassins after them. Yet at the end of the thing you find out BBEG has literally hundreds of agents more powerful than what he sent and dozens that are much more powerful than what he sent. He actually doesn’t seem to have any agents as weak as what he has been sending. Why? Ok, maybe the first time. But after the PC’s had survived the first couple of tries. Wouldn’t he have said, “Enough of this! Lord Death Slayer take your 50 most powerful minions, teleport over there, and personally ensure I don’t have to worry about this anymore! Report back to me by supper!” Apparently not.
Not unreasonable, but not how it was written. As it was written (in one of them, I haven't read the other) the BBEG knows that the PC's are destined to thwart him. He sends a single 3rd level assassin across the world taking months to get there. Next he sends three (or five) 3rd level assassins across the world taking months to get there. Next he sends six 3rd level assassins with a 5th level leader across the world taking months to get there. Etc...
When you finally get to his lair it is chock full of bad guys (not one of which is less than 8th level), many of whom had teleport and quite a few of the real big badguys have greater teleport.Yes, a good GM might have re-written that story. Assuming he has the whole series at the start, sees the problem, knows how to fix it, and has the time to fix it.
...
How does detect evil help here? Anyone under level 5 doesn't ping, and even being Evil isn't actually a crime in most areas. Heck, you can be LE and obey the letter of the law while getting your rocks off as the bureaucracy messes with people's lives. Evil can be just petty dbaggery making people's lives miserable.
A previously LG society, rulers, nobles, and army. Are suddenly all evil. I don't know why but the write-up specified the power making them evil did ping on detect evil. Plus almost anyone in charge of anything is actually a spawn of something now (easily above the 5 HD limit). To top it off they are obviously not acting normal now.
Maybe not obviously illegal. But it seems like just maybe it might have been enough to get someone in all those high powered clergies suspicious enough to cast a couple of low level divination spells. Just possibly.
The PC's had the whole thing pretty much figured out in about 1/2 day in-game time and about 30 minutes of RL play time.
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5. Being damm stingy on what you allow for custom crafting. This is one of the biggest ways that campaigns go off the rails... when you've got the functions of 3 or more items combined into one.The combined item rules released in the Magic Compendium were a very much needed boon to Martials and rules I refuse to run/play without when dealing with a gear-dependent system. [Thankfully I don't actually run a gear-dependent system anymore,so that's one issue I don't have to deal with.]
Now when you're talking about actual custom items rather than just combining items? I can see how those could conceivably cause issues.
Combination items are by definition custom items. I see what you're looking at when it comes to martials, but on casters, they lead to tons of abuse, and generally tip the balance even more in their favor.
With magic tattoos and shadow piercings, you can put 3 items in your slots WITHOUT custom items... SO going by the rules, it's all already 100% fine. If it's off the rails, it isn't with custom items.
1. No allowing temporal factor design into demi-planes.
2. Not allowing simulacrum to create an army of fully functional, obedient copies of yourself and powerful creatures even if at half level.
3. Not allowing Blood Money to use stats beyond the natural score... i.e. No augmenting your Strength stat to 50 and burning it for the spll.
4. Rigidly enforcing the variable nature of spells such as teleport and plane shift. and in the latter case, insisting on the proper tuning fork foci.
5. Being damm stingy on what you allow for custom crafting. This is one of the biggest ways that campaigns go off the rails... when you've got the functions of 3 or more items combined into one.
... and there are lots of others. There's no such thing as a game system that doesn't benefit from a bit of tweaking at the high levels/point scores/etc. of the gme.
Those rules loophoole should be closed always, not simply in high level games. High level just makes everything bigger.
Custom crafting is broken right out of the gate, and if you actually allow crafting feats the game break right at level 3 when one of the PC has double the item worth of the others.Blood money shenanigans can start right at level 5.
Create demiplan and Simulacrum are DM spell needed for world building. It's the same reason why dominate person is in the CRB, it's needed for the DM to set up some of the classical plots. You are not actually going to permit a 9th level caster to go around with 40 dominated people.
I see lots of high level play. All the AP I've run end between 17 and 20th level.
Now I have a ton of 1st to 5th level characters. A game starts and dies before it gets past that point.
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I'll throw my $0.02 in. All the 3.X variants tend to break around level ~13 (mileage may vary). Around then you either have one really big baddie who Save Fails his/her way into an early grave from one PC or you have a ton of fodder who can't hit worth a damn and are not a challenge for the PCs.
You can try to fix the problem by throwing bigger things at the PCs, but if they survive they they get a ton of exp so the problem only escalates as they power level.
OR you could custom build every single baddie for every single encounter and spend 4+ hours of DM prep work for every single 3 hours of Pathfinder. That is always a joy!
Don't get me wrong. Pathfinder is fun, but it's still got the problems of it's parents.
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Aelryinth post is a perfect explaination of why there are no high level games: most people can't be arsed with actually adapt to the new paradigm and just want to run the same exact crap, just with higher numbers.It's more of an explanation of why HIS games don't work out. DM's giving casters the most favorable interpretations of magic, and PC's more insterested in powergaming then engaging in a story. Much of what he says that gives spellcasters such power is the cumulative result of coerner interpretations of magic that are vetted right here on this venue. Much of this can be fixed with minor tweaks of spell use. such as...
1. No allowing temporal factor design into demi-planes.
2. Not allowing simulacrum to create an army of fully functional, obedient copies of yourself and powerful creatures even if at half level.
3. Not allowing Blood Money to use stats beyond the natural score... i.e. No augmenting your Strength stat to 50 and burning it for the spll.
4. Rigidly enforcing the variable nature of spells such as teleport and plane shift. and in the latter case, insisting on the proper tuning fork foci.
5. Being damm stingy on what you allow for custom crafting. This is one of the biggest ways that campaigns go off the rails... when you've got the functions of 3 or more items combined into one.
... and there are lots of others. There's no such thing as a game system that doesn't benefit from a bit of tweaking at the high levels/point scores/etc. of the gme.
None of this actually addresses the imbalance between Martials and Casters, or even any of Aelryinth's other point. Believe me I rigidly enforce Teleport and Plane Shift. In fact, a player failing teleport 3 different times in one campaign was an on-going joke. That does nothing to rein in caster's power. I also don't allow custom magic items (though I do allowing further enhancement of specific armor/shield & weapons) and that does nothing to rein in casters power since this rule hurts martials much more then casters. I have to ask LazarX, have you ever played at levels 15+ and furthermore 19+?
Also a game that doesn't need tweaked at high levels is Legend, so they exist.
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The idea of teleportation inspiring lawlessness... is completely alien to meLarry Niven has writing about that specific topic for the last 40 years.
I like Flash Crowd. It's a good story. Two things about it though.
1. It is set in a world where teleportation is cheap and easy. No 9th level wizardly studies, no 'needs to have visited' limits. See interesting news story, activate, boom, you're there. Commoner 1s have teleport is different than wizard 9 and sorcerer 10s have teleport.
2. It is one possible outcome. It is not the most probable outcome, and most importantly, it is not the only possible outcome. Most of the discussions on teleport and its effect upon society ignore that possible effects are not mandatory effects. For every world that fails to invent ships because teleport circle works better for their economy and trade, there are a hundred more where ships and teleport coincide.
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[Citation Needed]Create demiplan and Simulacrum are DM spell needed for world building. It's the same reason why dominate person is in the CRB, it's needed for the DM to set up some of the classical plots. You are not actually going to permit a 9th level caster to go around with 40 dominated people.
Not really, unless you have failed to comprehend what this sort of communication entails.
Dekalinder is sharing things from his games' perspective. As are you, presumably, as am I, and Kirth, and even Anzyr with his DC 10 local shopping sprees.
These perspectives might be pertinent to your own, or they might be foreign. But putting a disclaimer of 'in my experience' is rather pointless. No one is offering anything other than their experience or second hand accounts of someone else's experience. Some people control armies at 6th level. Some still can't get past the guard to the library to check out a book. Some people have mages run this mother. Some have them scrambling in the dirt for their components.
There is no citation needed, because everyone's citation is "in the games with which I'm familiar." Whether they've sat down to play those games, or just theorycrafted them up in their own minds. That's the citation.
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High level play is a super heroes game; if you can't embrace that then you're going to struggle with running it.
Heh. I actively encourage custom magic items. Having non-standard stuff can be pretty fun (even if it's as simple as a pair of ruby slippers that cast interplanetary teleport 3/day, or a magitech shotgun that shoots an intensified diamond spray every time it's fired (walls lose!)), and there's often the case of "this item is sort of neat, but it doesn't quite fit. Maybe if it did _____ instead."
PCs getting to play with GM toolkit stuff is a feature, not a bug. (Whether the players have the maturity to handle getting their hands on the toolkit is another matter.)
I personally enjoy high level play, precisely for the over-the-top stuff involved. And that it can be just plain weird.
(My PCs are, reasons I won't get into here, currently exploring a crashed Star Destroyer on Hoth. The derelict Star Destroyer somehow still has power, droids, soldiers, AT-STs, etc. (How it has power directly relates to why the PCs are there, actually).
And a mythic (also related to why they're there) sith wookie with truespeech (he speaks in wookie, everyone inexplicably understands him) is in charge of the derelict. Because nothing bars high level play from veering into the absurd.)
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Along the way, we seem to have forgotten that rules on magic item and pocket plane creation were made to regulate PC activity, not the DM. No one ever asked for a list of spells that went into creating Strahd's fortress in Ravenloft, or that spinning giant diamond fortress floating inside a volcano, or that storm giant's castle riding the clouds. They were just there for us to explore, get pasted in, and conquer if we could.
Actually I want that. (kind of) I don't need to know the specifics, but anything an NPC can do should be explainable within the system. Sure, maybe the answer is that it requires a special Craft Arcane Fortress feat, 10 years of downtime, and millions of gp - so that a PC likely wouldn't want to do it - but if a player says "hey, how do I make a floating cloud castle?" I want to be able to answer it. NPCs shouldn't get special powers because they are NPCs. They may get special powers because they are vampires, or demons, or dragons, or because they did a evil ritual and sacrificed people to the dark gods - but not just because they are NPCs and the players can't have that.
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Did you win intitiaive?
No
Can you make 4 dc 69 fort saves in a row?
Drat, only 3 with rerolls.
You're dead.
Alright guys, getting a pizza. Let me know when you res me.
Did you win intitiaive?
No
Can you make 4 dc 69 fort saves in a row?
Drat, only 3 with rerolls.
You're dead.
Alright guys, getting a pizza. Let me know when you res me.
They won't be able to go far for that Pizza in high level play. Since Miracle/Wish Duplicating Resurrection is only a standard action. Heck you have a whole other spell and 30 ft. you can move after that. People die multiple times in some of my high level fights. Death just isn't a big deal at that level.
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Greater Teleport cannot miss, cannot be stopped (except by Forbiddance), and if you're wrong you just return to where you cast the spell. Forgot travel and local laws, anything not covered by Forbiddance (so someone paid an 11th level cleric several pounds of gold) or actively watched by a guard at all times will just disappear.
Cannot be stopped, except by forbiddance, or teleport trap, or a few other high level spells. In addition you have to know where you are going (e.g. have someone describe it in detail) or have been there yourself. But sure, if you are playing a game where you are a thief it is pretty powerful. Hardly the norm though in most campaigns for Greater teleport to be used to loot, then flee the country. Plus there's still a story to be had there. You want to rob the king's treasury? You need to find out where it is, and find a way to get inside before the heist. Seems like the makings of an adventure, especially since there is likely to be a guardian you don't know about.
Meet the spell Turn rumors into reliable information. Takes a while if you start with rumors (2 months on average) but can literally turn rumors into reliable information. Oh, and includes the note that:As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are "legendary," as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.
Legend Lore takes days or weeks of downtime in which you are not engaged in conflict. It makes no promises as to what type of lore you will receive, or even if you will receive any. In addition to saying that 11th level is a rule of thumb (e.g. not always certain), there is a spell you might have heard of that blocks all divinations about a subject. I think it might be called mind blank.
So it works on everything level 11 or CR 11 or higher.
This is false. How do you read "rule of thumb" and come back with "works on everything"? I don't understand.
So not necessarily something you can learn super fast, but the fact that you can turn vague rumors into concrete information (information that was forgotten or never generally known) with no chance of failure or misinformation is pretty powerful.
Sure. If you have days or weeks to spend preparing divinations and have a starting point you can gain more information. If you have vision you can even so so much more quickly. How much info you get depends on the GM and how much you started with. Do you know what a great way to have more information to start with is? Checking with an expert on the subject matter.
In either any case, neither Legend Lore nor Vision promise you more than vague and incomplete information at worst, or legends and stories at best. That isn't revealing all secrets quickly or easily.
If you've regularly played high level combat you should be super familiar with this line: "Everyone roll a Will/Reflex/Fort save". Auras, AoEs, death throes, breath weapons, I'm sure I could find more names for them. High level combat is no place for a low-level character to find themself. They'll probably be dead by accident before they can...
Sure, that's not what he said though. He said any low level friends, allies, or lovers will be hunted down and killed by your enemies. I don't buy that. It's a possible plot, but not a foregone conclusion. And that's where, again, people lose me. The assumption that something that can be done will be done, whether speaking to simulacrum armies, low level allies murdered, divinations solving all problems, blood money wishes, or anything else.
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Did you win intitiaive?
No
Can you make 4 dc 69 fort saves in a row?
Drat, only 3 with rerolls.
You're dead.
Alright guys, getting a pizza. Let me know when you res me.
They won't be able to go far for that Pizza in high level play. Since Miracle/Wish Duplicating Resurrection is only a standard action. Heck you have a whole other spell and 30 ft. you can move after that. People die multiple times in some of my high level fights. Death just isn't a big deal at that level.
Hell, battle res is a thing as soon as limited wish (to duplicate raise dead) becomes available.
At high levels, death is another status effect to overcome (though one of the pricier and nastier ones, at 6,500 to 25,000 a pop). It's low levels where death means it's pizza run time.
If you die ... walk it off.
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Did you win intitiaive?
No
Can you make 4 dc 69 fort saves in a row?
Drat, only 3 with rerolls.
You're dead.
Alright guys, getting a pizza. Let me know when you res me.
They won't be able to go far for that Pizza in high level play. Since Miracle/Wish Duplicating Resurrection is only a standard action. Heck you have a whole other spell and 30 ft. you can move after that. People die multiple times in some of my high level fights. Death just isn't a big deal at that level.
Heh. I've been there. Sometimes things get hairy when you can only true resurrect two guys a round.
...and this sort of thing is what we mean when we say that high level play is different. You can indeed reach a point where raising the dead is as casual as a low level cure light wounds.
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High level play, is another reason, I hope Paizo does a Planar Campaign book. There are plenty of "Outsiders", that can challenge the upper levels.
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Technically Kain, Dekalinder was saying that no other GMs [or at least a tiny microcosm of GMs] allow those spells to be used as written Admittedly even I dislike Simulacrum and Demiplane shenanigans, but I certainly have always permitted the use of Dominate Person as the spell is actually written.
No. Not once you understand the unstated citation implicit in everyone's posts here. He hasn't said anything about your games, because he can't. He's simply not qualified to speak on your games, anymore than I am. So in his experience, Simulacrum and Dominate person are DM stuff. In my experience, I just authorized the wizard PC in my game to utilize non-combat wealth to make simulacra, because the spell won't really be impacting combats and such. In Anzyr's world, simulacra are a stepping stone to infinite free wishes.
Now, we can argue about what the designers intend, or what the rules actually allow in the most legalistic manner, but essentially, no one discusses the hobby in a vacuum. It is always informed by our experience.
Really, it's rather surprising that a hobby based around a ruleset that explicitly allows the GM to both change or ignore actual rules and make up rulings on the spot rules for uncovered situations has the sort of connected and cohesive fanbase that it does. But such is DnD. Or Pathfinder, these days.
I think everyone is entitled to at least one Level 20 character, so I am gunning hard at our current campaign to finish, since 2 players have never had one (standing at 18 atm.)
Yeah, it's still a bit of a game of rocket tag nowadays. But abilities need to progress in some way, to stray away from how it is during low levels. I don't mind players instantly taking out a foe at this stage, and why should I? It makes it much easier on me anyway, and they feel powerful at the same time.
If they knock out my BBEG with one "rocket," I see that as a failure on my part on making the encounter challenging (which, makes me the only victim. They still get to feel powerful). I usually try to stray away from having only one Super-villain at a time anyway; so rather than getting lucky on an attack/save and eliminating the major threat all together, a new one simply emerges. There's always a bigger fish.
High level play, is another reason, I hope Paizo does a Planar Campaign book. There are plenty of "Outsiders", that can challenge the upper levels.
YES
Everytime I think my character is all that and a bag of chips, I just remember some of those monsters that would put me in my place. Such as a warband of Thanatotic Titans.
For me:
High level rounds get to complex, the "spikes" (like save or die mechanics) etc. get to extreme.
Also if you play homebrew the DM needs expotential more time to prepare and it's also more difficult to create challenges due to the additional options the players have (or you tailor the challenges to the player, which then feels artifical "why does this guy has the "counter X" spell memorized, when X is really rare in this area?").
For me the best games are between Level 2 to 10
Formerly, my favorite reason to not play high-level games is that everyone died at lower levels. Sadly, with the removal of "resurrection survival" checks, that's no longer a thing.
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...and this sort of thing is what we mean when we say that high level play is different. You can indeed reach a point where raising the dead is as casual as a low level cure light wounds.But that's not really different. It seems different, because you're thinking of it as dead. Which in our experience is pretty final. But mechanically speaking it isn't any different than a low level character getting dropped below zero by an attack and brought back up again by CLW.
You're taken out of the fight by an attack and brought back into it using up a resource. The names of the attacks, conditions and resources change, but the basic mechanics don't.
I disagree. It's different because you're no longer playing a numbers game. How many hit points of damage does a resurrection spell heal?
At some level, bonuses to damage become meaningless because you can one-shot anything -- if you hit it, you kill it. At that point, you need to re-think your strategy because putting more resources into adding additional damage is literally useless.
Or, to put it another way, "I can cause more damage than their cleric can heal" is no longer a viable strategy, and you need to allow for that.
The same thing, of course, applies, when you're in the world of "I hit on anything but a 1" or "I save on anything but a 1" and so forth.
There comes a point where Pathfinder stops being a game of percentages and odds and instead turns into rock-scissors-paper, where paper will always beat rock no matter what rock does.