Gm hands out solo experience in group of six players


Advice

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Bran Towerfall wrote:

hi guys,

last night we were faced with a situation that made some of the players at our table upset. we were in a dungeon and we found a well. a fellow pc and myself detected magic inside. we lowered the monk into the water and planned if he was in trouble he would yank on the rope. the monk's perception shows an undead skeleton wearing magic items stuck on bottom of well pinned under a rock. we pull him up and send the cleric down to deal with it. hovering out of the skeleton's reach he channels till the undead is killed and then collects magic item. when he is pulled up, the gm awards him solo experience for killing the skeletal champion.( 600 experience points)

How did he hover there? Was he using a spell? Was he climbing? Or did you lower him down with a rope?

If the latter at least the ones holding the rope directly helped kill the skeleton.

However, it was a jerk move. Tell that to the gm and if he reacts badly start a new game without him.


This is just bad GMing and it sounds staged. I echo those above that do not give individual party XP awards but give group XP. There is no "catch up" mechanism inherent in Pathfinder to make individual XP rewarding anything other than needlessly frustrating for all involved.


we had him on a rope
he got the experience
he put the magic item on his character sheet

all in about 1 minute real time .....fellow pcs stunned but did not want to disrupt the game mid-session


Bran Towerfall wrote:

we had him on a rope

he got the experience
he put the magic item on his character sheet

all in about 1 minute real time .....

Should have let go of the rope and sealed up the well.

Come back a week later for his equipment.


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Petty Alchemy wrote:
Everyone has different definitions for Munchkin/Optimizer/Minmaxer, it's one of the things the gaming community can't seem to pin down.

I think that's because for a lot of people the definition ultimately boils down to "People who play the game in a way I personally don't approve of."


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bran Towerfall wrote:

we had him on a rope

he got the experience
he put the magic item on his character sheet

all in about 1 minute real time .....

Should have let go of the rope and sealed up the well.

Come back a week later for his equipment.

i'm sure he would show up next week with a hulk action figure and find out his cleric has grown gills


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Bran Towerfall wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bran Towerfall wrote:

we had him on a rope

he got the experience
he put the magic item on his character sheet

all in about 1 minute real time .....

Should have let go of the rope and sealed up the well.

Come back a week later for his equipment.

i'm sure he would show up next week with a hulk action figure and find out his cleric has grown gills

And that my friend is a sign that the GM is full... of shit.

Time to find a new group [or found it yourself.]

DISCLAIMER EDIT: This is predicated on the GM actually permitting such, not your assumption he would. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt until he actually does it, then ABANDON SHIP if he did.

Scarab Sages

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Tell your GM that this sort of XP awarding when carried to its farthest extrapolation leads to XP greedy PCs "arranging" for other members to die during big battles so they can claim a greater share. I don't think I need to tell you how easy this would be for a cleric? Eventually the others are a level or two lower than the lucky survivor, and then guess what? The other players die more often facing a higher CR encounter for their lower level characters.

This actually happened in one of my groups (I was the GM). This one player would rush ahead or sneak off to solo kill monsters and gather loot (he was a optimized barbarian so it actually worked a good portion of the time). He also conveniently found reasons not to come to the aid of of players in combat situations, which resulted in several very avoidable deaths. Once I saw what he was doing, I changed tactics. I had to start awarding XP so that 25% was based on treasure and kills, 50% based on group cooperation, and 25% based on achieving group goals. Needless to say, the "killer" PC was not happy with this new arrangement. Being more experienced now, I would have told him after the game to stop or find a new table, but at the time that was my feeble effort to amicably resolve the out of game issue in-game.

Fast forward a handful of years and now our group only uses story point leveling, where we do NOT keep track of XP and everyone levels at the same time. I highly recommend this method.

If your group is set on using XP, everything, and I mean everything is divided equally. If the GM wants to award a bonus, have him grant a hero point, a boon from an NPC, gold, a one time re-roll or bonus added to a roll, etc. Because anything else is a breach of the social contract at the table. And that rarely ends well if it continues....


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redcelt32 wrote:
Fast forward a handful of years and now our group only uses story point leveling, where we do NOT keep track of XP and everyone levels at the same time. I highly recommend this method.

So much this.

There's no good reason to use EXP in my mind. It's a clunky mechanic at its core, one that feeds the leveling mentality AND helps put the players into a more video-game oriented state of mind.

So much better to level the group when appropriate, either at specific storypoints if the GM is doing some form of written storyboard RP, or when 'the time is right' if doing something more open-world.


By that logic the cleric should also no longer be getting any exp since clerics are only good for healing and you know, they aren't actually killing monsters. Like the monk which scouted and you guys who were pulling the rope.

I myself am surprised the rest of the party allowed the cleric to hoard the loot all for himself. If my usual group was there we will start talking about shared loot (if not exp being a metal mechanic), contracts (or the possibility of now having contracts), threats, fights and inevitably the party leaving the cleric to die in the hole with his so important magic item.


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redcelt32 wrote:

Tell your GM that this sort of XP awarding when carried to its farthest extrapolation leads to XP greedy PCs "arranging" for other members to die during big battles so they can claim a greater share. I don't think I need to tell you how easy this would be for a cleric? Eventually the others are a level or two lower than the lucky survivor, and then guess what? The other players die more often facing a higher CR encounter for their lower level characters.

This actually happened in one of my groups (I was the GM). This one player would rush ahead or sneak off to solo kill monsters and gather loot (he was a optimized barbarian so it actually worked a good portion of the time). He also conveniently found reasons not to come to the aid of of players in combat situations, which resulted in several very avoidable deaths. Once I saw what he was doing, I changed tactics. I had to start awarding XP so that 25% was based on treasure and kills, 50% based on group cooperation, and 25% based on achieving group goals. Needless to say, the "killer" PC was not happy with this new arrangement. Being more experienced now, I would have told him after the game to stop or find a new table, but at the time that was my feeble effort to amicably resolve the out of game issue in-game.

Fast forward a handful of years and now our group only uses story point leveling, where we do NOT keep track of XP and everyone levels at the same time. I highly recommend this method.

If your group is set on using XP, everything, and I mean everything is divided equally. If the GM wants to award a bonus, have him grant a hero point, a boon from an NPC, gold, a one time re-roll or bonus added to a roll, etc. Because anything else is a breach of the social contract at the table. And that rarely ends well if it continues....

This is what my groups does. We simply all level at the same time at various plot points in either an official AP or homebrew campaign. Makes all of these issues null and void and makes the game more fun for all involved.


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Omnitricks wrote:
By that logic the cleric should also no longer be getting any exp since clerics are only good for healing and you know, they aren't actually killing monsters.

This isn't AD&D anymore pardner, Clerics are killing machines in 3E and- to a slightly lesser extent- Pathfinder


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thejeff wrote:
Dosgamer wrote:

Yep, 1st ed was all about who got in the final blow and felled the monster. You contributed 50 hp but the thief felled it with his dagger for 4 hp? Thief gets 100% of the xp. People used to haggle over magic items, too, because of the xp they were awarded for receiving them.

I think that was an optional/house rule even back in AD&D.

That may be true, but giving out XP evenly to the whole group wasn't part of the standard rules set, if I recall. If you ganged up on a monster that was distributed evenly to those who contributed. I DM'd where if you did something solo, you got the full experience for it.


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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Dosgamer wrote:
Yep, 1st ed was all about who got in the final blow and felled the monster. You contributed 50 hp but the thief felled it with his dagger for 4 hp? Thief gets 100% of the xp. People used to haggle over magic items, too, because of the xp they were awarded for receiving them.
I think that was an optional/house rule even back in AD&D.
That may be true, but giving out XP evenly to the whole group wasn't part of the standard rules set, if I recall. If you ganged up on a monster that was distributed evenly to those who contributed. I DM'd where if you did something solo, you got the full experience for it.

Yeah, solo I'd agree with, but "all xp for the last blow" was commonly talked about, but not an actual rule, AFAIK.


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Bran Towerfall wrote:


has this come up in any of your games?

other players have said to me that if that's the way its going to go from now on ......they would be inclined to adventure away from party, win initiative and try to one-hit kill, shut doors in battle to take all monsters for themselves.

Not in PF, but in my very first ever AD&D game. The DM and other player had managed to talk me into playing a psionicist (ie, a psion); due to my lack of understanding of the class's game mechanics, the other player also convinced me that getting the attack and defence modes required access to the Telepathy discipline.

This led me to roll a Telepath. (In retrospect, I wouldn't have considered it.)

Our first encounter was on a ship. The other player, whose character was a chaotic neutral elf fighter/monk (3/3) named Xain, with EVERY psionic power from the 2e CPsiH as a wild talent, destroyed the ship in one round... and then demanded solo experience for the encounter because I never had a chance to act. Luckily, the DM said no.

----

The opposite happened in the last campaign I played; a character actually ran among three separate (but kindasorta proximate) encounters in order to participate in each and argue that he should have a share of each encounter's EXP.


I don't give XP at all. Players level up when I deem appropriate. Usually all at the same time, and if not all at the same time within the same session.


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I'm actually a big fan of solo Xp, but even I have to agree that was a bad call. If everybody was there and helping in whatever reasonable capacity they could, give them Xp. Even the fighter who didn't do anything because it was smarter to let the cleric handle the situation. You don't just give trap Xp to the rogue.

The only time I do solo Xp is if only one player shares the burden. If the rogue goes ahead to scout, ends up screwing up and handles an encounter by himself? He gets solo Xp since he was the only one at risk.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bran Towerfall wrote:
Ulrik of Belkzen wrote:
If the monk feeds on the cleric's blood until the cleric dies, does he get the cleric's XP?
i'm sure the gm would have to look thru 30 books to make a ruling on that..lol

Don't feel so smug... the way the folks post questions here, I don't think they'd feel comfortable with characters tying shoelaces unless they find a mechanic that gives a skill DC for the task.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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HowFortuitous wrote:

I'm actually a big fan of solo Xp, but even I have to agree that was a bad call. If everybody was there and helping in whatever reasonable capacity they could, give them Xp. Even the fighter who didn't do anything because it was smarter to let the cleric handle the situation. You don't just give trap Xp to the rogue.

The only time I do solo Xp is if only one player shares the burden. If the rogue goes ahead to scout, ends up screwing up and handles an encounter by himself? He gets solo Xp since he was the only one at risk.

I dunno, sucks for the rest of the party that they didn't get to play while the rogue was soloing, unless you're an amazing juggler.


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Petty Alchemy wrote:
HowFortuitous wrote:

I'm actually a big fan of solo Xp, but even I have to agree that was a bad call. If everybody was there and helping in whatever reasonable capacity they could, give them Xp. Even the fighter who didn't do anything because it was smarter to let the cleric handle the situation. You don't just give trap Xp to the rogue.

The only time I do solo Xp is if only one player shares the burden. If the rogue goes ahead to scout, ends up screwing up and handles an encounter by himself? He gets solo Xp since he was the only one at risk.

I dunno, sucks for the rest of the party that they didn't get to play while the rogue was soloing, unless you're an amazing juggler.

It's also possible he might have an assistant GM who can take over one part of the game while he handles the other. It can work pretty well that way.


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LazarX wrote:
Don't feel so smug... the way the folks post questions here, I don't think they'd feel comfortable with characters tying shoelaces unless they find a mechanic that gives a skill DC for the task.

GAH! I've hitherto not given that thought!

*begins searching forums*

Well, there goes 20 hours of my life I'll never have again... for the record, the forums are split on the skill used for shoe-tying. There's a compelling case to be made for allowing ranks in Profession (cobbler) to substitute for Sleight of Hand... and a few 3.0 grognards insisting on house-ruling Use Rope back into Pathfinder... and a substantial minority camp insists it should be a CMB check against a Tiny object's CMD.

Who knew?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
quibblemuch wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Don't feel so smug... the way the folks post questions here, I don't think they'd feel comfortable with characters tying shoelaces unless they find a mechanic that gives a skill DC for the task.

GAH! I've hitherto not given that thought!

*begins searching forums*

Well, there goes 20 hours of my life I'll never have again... for the record, the forums are split on the skill used for shoe-tying. There's a compelling case to be made for allowing ranks in Profession (cobbler) to substitute for Sleight of Hand... and a few 3.0 grognards insisting on house-ruling Use Rope back into Pathfinder... and a substantial minority camp insists it should be a CMB check against a Tiny object's CMD.

Who knew?

Well-played, sir.


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For adventurer Paths we simply stopped using XP. The Path says "players should be x level when they start this bit" Poof we are that level.

For the Sandbox game I'm putting together to run, after we finish Mummy's Mask, I'm using an XP-pot.

-No XP for killing monsters
-XP awarded for achieving goals, solving mysteries or resolving quests ( For Example: If the quest is get rid of the Goblin lair, I award the same amount of XP for if you kill them all, convince them to move, use illusions to make them think their cave is haunted or whatever. As long as the Goblins leave the XP goes in the pot)
-XP awarded for resolving Key points in a Dungeon (EX: Find and clense the secret shrine to Phasmara hidden on level 2)
-XP awarded for resolving a personal sub-plot or challenge
-XP awarded for good Role-playing
-XP awarded for bringing me a cola, bag of chips or other snackage
-XP awarded for game contributions like Player Journal, portraits of PCs and important NPCs, or anything in general that is cool
-XP awarded for doing something cool, funny or just generally awesome

All XP, regardless of who earned it, goes in the Pot
Once PCs return to town an start Downtime XP Pot is divided equally among all members of the party. Nobody gets any XP until you are back in town and the group has some downtime.

I'm fine with awarding XP based on the action of a single player but it goes in the Pot and everyone benefits from it.

having characters with different XP values just gets messy


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
HowFortuitous wrote:

I'm actually a big fan of solo Xp, but even I have to agree that was a bad call. If everybody was there and helping in whatever reasonable capacity they could, give them Xp. Even the fighter who didn't do anything because it was smarter to let the cleric handle the situation. You don't just give trap Xp to the rogue.

The only time I do solo Xp is if only one player shares the burden. If the rogue goes ahead to scout, ends up screwing up and handles an encounter by himself? He gets solo Xp since he was the only one at risk.

I dunno, sucks for the rest of the party that they didn't get to play while the rogue was soloing, unless you're an amazing juggler.
It's also possible he might have an assistant GM who can take over one part of the game while he handles the other. It can work pretty well that way.

It's also feasible in PbP. Some of the standard FtF limitations and tropes aren't really needed there.

Which has interesting possibilities that aren't usually exploited.


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The GM is learning, take it easy on him. If he is receptive there is a conversation to be had that encouraging competitive behavior in pathfinder is not how the game was designed, there may be some fun off the start but it crashes and burns eventually.

If he is not receptive; stick around, let him make mistakes and learn from them, he will become a better GM, or take a turn GMing, lead by example, or find a different group.

But seriously this is an honest, new to the game, doesn't know where this path leads mistake.


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quibblemuch wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Don't feel so smug... the way the folks post questions here, I don't think they'd feel comfortable with characters tying shoelaces unless they find a mechanic that gives a skill DC for the task.

GAH! I've hitherto not given that thought!

*begins searching forums*

Well, there goes 20 hours of my life I'll never have again... for the record, the forums are split on the skill used for shoe-tying. There's a compelling case to be made for allowing ranks in Profession (cobbler) to substitute for Sleight of Hand... and a few 3.0 grognards insisting on house-ruling Use Rope back into Pathfinder... and a substantial minority camp insists it should be a CMB check against a Tiny object's CMD.

Who knew?

Wow, what is the CMD of an unattended tiny object?

10 -5 (str) -5 (dex) -4 tiny = -4 CMD?

So basically "don't roll a 1." It is an attack after all. Also, that's about right. 5% of the time I'd say I have to pull the strings and try again.

But for the record; DC 5 profession sailor or escape artist check.


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BigDTBone wrote:
But for the record; DC 5 profession sailor or escape artist check.

Bah! Everyone knows sailors don't wear shoes. They're like hobbits of the sea.

And Escape Artist only works to get OUT of shoes. Clearly it was not intended to enable PCs to secure their shoes. That's why manacles don't use it to secure prisoners.

(I think I rolled a 20 on my Thread Hijack maneuver check.)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigDTBone wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Don't feel so smug... the way the folks post questions here, I don't think they'd feel comfortable with characters tying shoelaces unless they find a mechanic that gives a skill DC for the task.

GAH! I've hitherto not given that thought!

*begins searching forums*

Well, there goes 20 hours of my life I'll never have again... for the record, the forums are split on the skill used for shoe-tying. There's a compelling case to be made for allowing ranks in Profession (cobbler) to substitute for Sleight of Hand... and a few 3.0 grognards insisting on house-ruling Use Rope back into Pathfinder... and a substantial minority camp insists it should be a CMB check against a Tiny object's CMD.

Who knew?

10 -5 (str) -5 (dex) -4 tiny = -4 CMD?

So basically "don't roll a 1." It is an attack after all. Also, that's about right. 5% of the time I'd say I have to pull the strings and try again.

But for the record; DC 5 profession sailor or escape artist check.

Wrong sir! Rope Use/Survival is for Untying the shoelace. Escape Artist for slipping the shoe off without untying.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Greylurker wrote:

having characters with different XP values just gets messy

We managed to deal with it in our WOTR and simply rely on Herolab letting us know when it's level up time. :) For the most part, some characters have simply leveled up a session later than others.


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Ulrik of Belkzen wrote:
If the monk feeds on the cleric's blood until the cleric dies, does he get the cleric's XP?

only if he does it within the hour and even then he only gets 25% of it. Luckily he still gets the xp for the murder of his friend.


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quibblemuch wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
But for the record; DC 5 profession sailor or escape artist check.

Bah! Everyone knows sailors don't wear shoes. They're like hobbits of the sea.

And Escape Artist only works to get OUT of shoes. Clearly it was not intended to enable PCs to secure their shoes. That's why manacles don't use it to secure prisoners.

(I think I rolled a 20 on my Thread Hijack maneuver check.)

No no no, the escape artist is an opposed check against your feet escaping the shoe.


DM Livgin wrote:

The GM is learning, take it easy on him. If he is receptive there is a conversation to be had that encouraging competitive behavior in pathfinder is not how the game was designed, there may be some fun off the start but it crashes and burns eventually.

If he is not receptive; stick around, let him make mistakes and learn from them, he will become a better GM, or take a turn GMing, lead by example, or find a different group.

But seriously this is an honest, new to the game, doesn't know where this path leads mistake.

Learning is good an all. But after that happened if he is not listening I would not stay. Grab the 5 players (you+4) not involved, elect a new gm, and have your own group.


I usually handle this sort of thing as "the entire party gets 50% listed XP," And then divide the rest of the XP up amongst the members of the group who actually did something. So the monk would get some for scouting; the people pulling on the rope would get some for helping the party, and the Cleric would get some for smiting (channeling). Everyone helped? Great! Everyone gets XP; someone's holding back? Great! they now have an incentive to stop being anti-social.

Sovereign Court

That's the kind of game you run, not walk, away from.


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DM Livgin wrote:

The GM is learning, take it easy on him. If he is receptive there is a conversation to be had that encouraging competitive behavior in pathfinder is not how the game was designed, there may be some fun off the start but it crashes and burns eventually.

If he is not receptive; stick around, let him make mistakes and learn from them, he will become a better GM, or take a turn GMing, lead by example, or find a different group.

But seriously this is an honest, new to the game, doesn't know where this path leads mistake.

not a new gm

has the most gaming experience of anyone on the table
stuck in his old school d&d ways
doesn't research pathfinder
doesn't prepare before session
doesn't read monster and encounter stat blocks until fight begins
running a homebrew campaign he made for 2.0 d&d made over 20 years ago
sloppy conversions on monsters like displacer beasts
thinks pcs who dont play core classes/races or multi-class are over complicating the game


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Bran Towerfall wrote:

not a new gm
has the most gaming experience of anyone on the table
stuck in his old school d&d ways
doesn't research pathfinder
doesn't prepare before session
doesn't read monster and encounter stat blocks until fight begins
running a homebrew campaign he made for 2.0 d&d made over 20 years ago
sloppy conversions on monsters like displacer beasts
thinks pcs who dont play core classes/races or multi-class are over complicating the game

First, cast Expeditious retreat.

Now, run! Get to the chop-ah!

-Ghorrin Redblade


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Bran Towerfall wrote:
DM Livgin wrote:

The GM is learning, take it easy on him. If he is receptive there is a conversation to be had that encouraging competitive behavior in pathfinder is not how the game was designed, there may be some fun off the start but it crashes and burns eventually.

If he is not receptive; stick around, let him make mistakes and learn from them, he will become a better GM, or take a turn GMing, lead by example, or find a different group.

But seriously this is an honest, new to the game, doesn't know where this path leads mistake.

not a new gm

has the most gaming experience of anyone on the table
stuck in his old school d&d ways
doesn't research pathfinder
doesn't prepare before session
doesn't read monster and encounter stat blocks until fight begins
running a homebrew campaign he made for 2.0 d&d made over 20 years ago
sloppy conversions on monsters like displacer beasts
thinks pcs who dont play core classes/races or multi-class are over complicating the game

Oh, well ya, ummm. I withdraw my comment.


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Bran Towerfall wrote:
DM Livgin wrote:

The GM is learning, take it easy on him. If he is receptive there is a conversation to be had that encouraging competitive behavior in pathfinder is not how the game was designed, there may be some fun off the start but it crashes and burns eventually.

If he is not receptive; stick around, let him make mistakes and learn from them, he will become a better GM, or take a turn GMing, lead by example, or find a different group.

But seriously this is an honest, new to the game, doesn't know where this path leads mistake.

not a new gm

has the most gaming experience of anyone on the table
stuck in his old school d&d ways
doesn't research pathfinder
doesn't prepare before session
doesn't read monster and encounter stat blocks until fight begins
running a homebrew campaign he made for 2.0 d&d made over 20 years ago
sloppy conversions on monsters like displacer beasts
thinks pcs who dont play core classes/races or multi-class are over complicating the game

Well, in that case all you can really do is talk to the guy and explain what's wrong. If he won't come around, perhaps try GMing a few sessions for the group so you can demonstrate how you think things should be run. If you're not up to the task, try encouraging the other players in the group to give it a shot.

More GMs in your area and circle of friends can't hurt. Being on the other side of the screen might give your current GM a better perspective on how to run the game, while providing some competition to motivate him to find ways to improve. :)


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BigDTBone wrote:
No no no, the escape artist is an opposed check against your feet escaping the shoe.

Does that include a +2 circumstance bonus if the shoes are masterwork? Because I don't wear non-masterwork shoes. I got a style to manifest...


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Bran Towerfall wrote:

not a new gm

has the most gaming experience of anyone on the table
stuck in his old school d&d ways
doesn't research pathfinder
doesn't prepare before session
doesn't read monster and encounter stat blocks until fight begins
running a homebrew campaign he made for 2.0 d&d made over 20 years ago
sloppy conversions on monsters like displacer beasts
thinks pcs who dont play core classes/races or multi-class are over complicating the game

It sounds to me like you're not enjoying the game.

I know people have been saying "EXPEDITIOUS RETREAT!" and it sounds like they're joking, but from reading everything you've written I'd say that finding a new game - with a new GM - is really what you seem to be looking for (even if it's you who's the GM).

The single Exp. for that skeleton was a mistake on his part, no matter how you look at it (I'm in the "GM tells us when we level up" camp for the record).
But aside from that, I'm not surprised if he's not paying attention when you tell him it's a mistake.
Think about when you run a game (or any activity), would you like it if people were constantly telling you you're doing it wrong? From what you've said, it's not just the occasional correction - 2 of the players actually have their computers out, ready to go, so that you can correct your GM. To quote the Pathfinder Core Rulebook (p396): "All rule books, including this one, are his tools, but his word is the law."

Now, I'm not trying to start a new argument here, but it's probably a better strategy to do something constructive instead of just contradicting the person you've all elected to be the arbiter of rules.
If you do want to have someone there with a rulebook out, maybe talk to your GM beforehand, and have that person be a GM's assistant, so when the GM needs a monster, he can just ask that person for the info.
If you feel there are corrections needed, take notes and talk to him after the session's over. That way you're not directly contradicting him in front of everyone (and embarrassing him?) and you're not interrupting the flow of play for other players.
When all is said and done, it's all pretend anyway. If he got the rules for wraiths wrong, so what? They were magic resistant? These were a different kind of wraith. If you manage to beat them anyway, you can feel like you accomplished something more important.
Your characters likely wouldn't know the difference, and if your character actually does have ranks in the relevant Knowledge skill, maybe they'd be fascinated to have found this new sub-species of monster?

Basically what I'm saying is that even if you have problems with his style of GM-ing, at least he's putting himself out there. If you don't like it, maybe offer your services as GM instead? If that's not a solution, and you really don't want to play with this group ... well there's a pretty obvious solution to that too. (And I wouldn't judge, I've left groups because their style didn't suit me.)

PS. Sorry for the super long post, it's 5am and I'm too tired to edit this down, sorry if it's too rambling. No offense meant, so I hope none is taken, I hope this helped in some way =P


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quibblemuch wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
No no no, the escape artist is an opposed check against your feet escaping the shoe.
Does that include a +2 circumstance bonus if the shoes are masterwork? Because I don't wear non-masterwork shoes. I got a style to manifest...

My shoes aren't masterwork, but the laces are ... can I still apply the bonus?


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MrCharisma wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
No no no, the escape artist is an opposed check against your feet escaping the shoe.
Does that include a +2 circumstance bonus if the shoes are masterwork? Because I don't wear non-masterwork shoes. I got a style to manifest...
My shoes aren't masterwork, but the laces are ... can I still apply the bonus?

According to the Haberdasher's Handbook, RAW, the non-masterwork eyelets counteract any benefit the laces might provide. Though strictly, that part of the rules was talking about masterwork buttons enabling you to quick-don a shirt as a swift action instead of a move action - but I think the same principle applies. The bonus defaults to the lowest quality part of the whole, not the highest. Otherwise, everyone would just pay for a masterwork pommel fastener instead of the whole sword - and THAT would break the game.


It is situations like this, and about a hundred others, that pushed my friends and me into scrapping the use of XP altogether.

We level up every few game sessions, by GM fiat. Take it from me -- it is liberating to cast off the shackles of XP calculation. Less busywork for the GM = more time to spend on game in other areas. The end result is the same anyway -- we level up every few sessions or so.


mr charisma...ty for post

running the wraith wrong is not the end of the world. some of the players are frustrated because every session has some avoidable mistake and rule fiasco. when you know the party is going to fight x y and z monsters next session and you have a week to study and prepare for this and then you can't find them in your books or are familiar with their sla and combat powers.... gets old real fast. some players also are upset because they had their characters die in combat and later found out the rules were misapplied causing their demise. i've talked to him multiple times about doing his homework before we play. since he has been running games for over 20 years, he feels that he can gm on the fly. one of our players expressed interest in becoming a dragon disciple and he called me up saying "why do you guys have to make things difficult by using 3rd party materials and splat books?" and then "what book is this dragon guy in anyways?"

core
core
core...for god's sake the damn core rulebook


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You should encourage him to join these boards and start airing out his problems/concerns.

I'm thinking he'll either come around to some extent or abandon Pathfinder for a retroclone :P

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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MrCharisma wrote:
Think about when you run a game (or any activity), would you like it if people were constantly telling you you're doing it wrong?

I find it fascinating how many old-school roleplayers fail to recognize the utter normality of healthy adults correcting each other while playing a game. When normal, healthy adults get together for some recreation, it's totally normal to hear statements like "Remember you have to stand behind that line" or "Don't forget to pick up your resources this turn" or "No, you have to throw underhanded" or whatever else. Reminding each other of how the rules of a game work is a normal thing that normal people do in normal circumstances. And frankly, if someone got offended about it, they'd be regarded as a child.

I'm still trying to figure out what it is about a certain demographic of roleplayers that makes them think this dynamic is completely thrown out the window as soon as we're talking about an RPG GM.

Quote:
From what you've said, it's not just the occasional correction - 2 of the players actually have their computers out, ready to go, so that you can correct your GM.

You make it sound like people normally wouldn't have had such devices handy but were motivated enough by their desire to correct the GM that they expended effort to prep such devices. In reality, most modern Americans would already have such a device handy (usually a phone) just because they always take it with them and therefore just happen to have ready access to the rules as a byproduct of already having had the device at hand.

Lantern Lodge

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Jiggy wrote:

Sometimes, a parent thinks their child couldn't possibly get into trouble in the few minutes they're not looking... and the child stays put.

Wait, not constantly watching your children is a bad idea? <looks right, looks left, and then proceeds to duck down in the shame of being a non-perfect parent>

O.o


we want the game to run faster and smoother. we take no joy in telling the gm that the ogre can't just pick up the dwarf and start running out of combat with him. "but the ogre is bigger than the dwarf?!?"

yes true..but you have to follow the grapple rules

"i hate the $%$# grapple rules, it was so much easier in 2nd edition"


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Bran Towerfall wrote:

we want the game to run faster and smoother. we take no joy in telling the gm that the ogre can't just pick up the dwarf and start running out of combat with him. "but the ogre is bigger than the dwarf?!?"

yes true..but you have to follow the grapple rules

"i hate the $%$# grapple rules, it was so much easier in 2nd edition"

Have you ever tried GMing Bran?

It seems like you're suited for it. At the very least, you recognize some of the biggest issues GMs can have, and that's half the battle.

Offer to give your GM a break and handle the next game. See what happens.


kestral287 wrote:
Bran Towerfall wrote:

we want the game to run faster and smoother. we take no joy in telling the gm that the ogre can't just pick up the dwarf and start running out of combat with him. "but the ogre is bigger than the dwarf?!?"

yes true..but you have to follow the grapple rules

"i hate the $%$# grapple rules, it was so much easier in 2nd edition"

Have you ever tried GMing Bran?

It seems like you're suited for it. At the very least, you recognize some of the biggest issues GMs can have, and that's half the battle.

Offer to give your GM a break and handle the next game. See what happens.

i was running the game two games ago. it went real well and when it was finished, the current gm asked if he could run his homebrew from 2nd edition d&d. he's not a fan of the paizo adventure paths/modules. we agreed with the caveat that conversions would be put thru the paizo conversion system. it's been a sloppy no sheriff in town nightmare.

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