This is very much an interest check, please be clear that i'm not sure I will try to run this.
Last night I had an idea for a campaign where the overarching theme is that the PCs will slowly change alignment. All the players would start out as good aligned characters and slowly play the through the process of falling from grace. Hopefully the endpoint for the campaign would be the now villains coming up with and then carrying out some sufficiently dastardly plot.
Would people be interested in this? I'm not sure I would have the time to GM but if I do I would love to run it. I would also be perfectly willing for someone else to take my idea and run a game (although I would like to be given a spot in said campaign if they do).
I am not sure that I have time, but it is certainly a very interesting idea. Good luck at any rate.
I like it. I rarely believe that Evil is a good idea but as a Fall from Grace arc, I am in. Who killed my father, did me dirty in a deal or sent us to die on a fools mission? Ahhhh who cares I'm sure we will kill em anyway! ;) Hahaha
Interested I am!
As someone who is actually working on a redemption arc for my Lawful Evil bard, it would be interesting to try the reverse. Color me intrigued.
Yes, I would be interested. it seems like a rather interesting scenario to role play through.
I Think I would be interested.
I would definitely be interested, that sounds like a really fun theme to explore.
Sounds cool.
I would also be interested, especially if the game did not start at 1st-level - I'm getting a little bit over building level 1 characters.
If I do end up running this I plan on starting somewhere from level 5-15 depending on what people want. Similarly I might want to include gestalt or mythic if the players want me to.
Level 5 Gestalt sounds awesome.
It does indeed. Many concepts would be available that aren't otherwise possible. I would not, however, be very much into a mythic game.
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Level 5 sounds like a great starting place - characters just establishing themselves as heroes, getting built up before the long fall, ect, ect. Mythic could be neat, particularly with the idea of becoming mythic villains. Gestalt I'm less keen on, but I'd give a shot.
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I am very interested -- concept and gestalt both.
In my experience with this there is one major caveat that must needs overcoming: the point in-game at which the PCs turn / start to turn.
If PC A is ready to switch and has some in-game motives to do so while PC B is still thinking a few more in-game months before turning, it can create many problems.
When a good wizard slowly researches more and more evil for his ambitions, it's gradual; meanwhile, a particular Paladin sees one good deed go punished and, spark, welcome to the Dark Side. Maybe the wizard wanted a few more sessions.
This can be compounded by a DM who is unsure of where the game is going.
In my opinion Sandbox games with this are likely to fail whereas more linear -- if not outright railroad -- adventures are likely to fare better.
But I'm interested.
I think if we're open about some Metagaming early on, maybe agreeing something like, "Hey, why don't we wait 3 or 4 levels of play before we switch and the DM tries to make an obvious few encounters / events that lead us to it...", it can work.
I DM'ed this twice, once in the mid 90s, starting as evil PCs and going good -- it was an utter FAILURE. And I tried once again about 8 years ago in a Game of Thrones urban adventure (this time unaligned to Evil) and it worked reasonably well -- though wasn't a spectacular adventure.
But I'm absolutely interested in this one, should it go forward.
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I'm interested as well, though maybe not necessarily in a gestalt version (mostly cause I've never done one and the bookkeeping sounds hellish :-P).
I agree with the sentiment that we would need to agree on a point where all players should have turned, or have at least gone mostly down their path to their fall.
I've never GM'd PbP games, so unfortunately I will not be stepping up to fill that role :-/
I agree that the turn is hard to do. It might be better to have the turn be at the start of the game or to have a special event trigger a turn in all of us. Being infected with something, or a curse. We could be partway and have that be the point of no return.
We also need to be wary of people who play evil in a stupid way.
But i'm interested either way. Just because something is hard is no reason not to try.
I'm interested!
Also, as far as "The turn" goes there is always the option of having your recruits write a "Vice" or "Weakness" in to their backstory that you can play on. For example: LG Paladin of Sarenrae has a penchant to seek out glory for his god. This character trait, taken to it's extreme, leads to a paladin who slowly becomes blood thirsty and selfish in battle, and ultimately leads to the character seeking out violence at every turn in an attempt to achieve greater glory.
There is also the "Red Kryptonite" approach, wherein your incorruptible hero becomes a vile perversion of him/herself as a result of contact with a cursed item of some sort. There doesn't need to be any real explanation as to why the character turned away from their better nature, and no need to have the character remain in contact with the item/substance. This turn can also be gradual. If the character realizes that they've contacted an item that does this, and the turn is inevitable, there is a chance for character development in the form of either rejecting or accepting their fate.
...just some ideas...
So is this happening?
I am also quite interested in such a game.
I think this sounds like a lot of fun and would love to be involved in it if you decide to try it.
Fascinating. I'm up for it. The turn over to evil is a tricky one. A war is a good way to do it, or something like a police force. A slow dive from idealism to pragmatism to war criminal.
If you fight dragons long enough, you become a dragon. Stare too long into the abyss, and the abyss will stare back into you.
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The OP indicated that he may not want to DM -- and he hasn't posted since Monday. If there's demand and BillyBrainPan doesn't come back I am willing to throw out a couple ideas as a candidate DM. But I'll wait a couple days not only for BillyBrainPan (cuz it's his Thread) but also because I'm in the middle of building a PC application for another PBP and want to really focus on that during my precious "off" time.
Im still monitoring this thread. If you feel you have the time to run this please do. It's unlikely that I would be able to get this together as a DM anytime soon. I would like a place as a player if you do run it.
Interested.
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Okay,...
If no one objects I'll start putting together an idea for this campaign and present it as an official Recruitment say, by Monday or Tuesday.
It looks like starting 5th Level Gestalt is acceptable to most -- I have tremendous experience both playing and DMing Gestalt so I can help any who are unfamiliar.
And, as I get a feel for what would make for a good game, I'll post my ideas.
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From the responsibility of being transparent, I will note that, despite having 30 years of DMing XP plus another 10 years of running PCs as a child, I'm still new to PBP.
I only ever applied to one PBP (I was selected & we started in Nov) and that campaign is up to, I think, page 37. It's great and it looks like our group of 5 PCs (The Lusty Fools) is in for the long hall.
Other than that, though, I lurked in 10 other PBPs back in Nov, Dec, to get a feel for how it all plays -- but I really did want to just be a Player in a few more PBPs before DMing. Oops.
Finally, I'm currently building a PC application for another PBP that I really want to get picked for and, alas, if chosen, I'll make that a priority over this one (making this one third-of-three among my PBPs).
All that said, I really like this idea and know that it can work. I'd love to hear any ideas and suggestions but won't be able to give any real feedback until I've developed a campaign.
. . . . See you in a few posts!
Make sure you have a good map system. Roll20 is excellent, but i have seen good games run off google drawing.
putting some ideas together.
W E Ray (or Billy, if you decide you have the time to run this) what do you think about 3rd party classes? I'm especially interested in Path of War, both the original material and the current playtest classes. What do you think?
...and do you know how you'll want to do ability scores?
I'm not 100% settled but thinking of a unarmed fighting gestalt cleric of Sun Wukong, the monkey god, who will start as CG and drift through CN to CE. 2nd side of the gestalt will be Warlord (Steelfist Commando) if Path of War is allowed, or Unchained Monk, if Paizo only.
Dotting for interest and will monitor thread. I've always been interested in this sort of arc, although normally I fall into a tendency of redeeming the villain and going from Evil to Slightly Better Than Satan.
Although I agree with the idea that having characters "switch-over" at different times might lead to a few headaches, I think through role playing this will lead to some interesting scenes. I mean -
The Goody-Two Shoes Bard has no coin and pickpockets an extravagantly wealthy traveler - justifying it since the party has no money due to some ill attempt at doing good and no one is giving out coin for his songs.
The Paladin (going with extreme stereotypes but could have been anyone) sees this and they have a quick exchange. In the end the coin is kept and the Paladin starts to face some harsh realities about his/her actions and consequences. (ie, even though they ran out of gold doing good, it left them in a worse spot than was intended)
It's a basic and honestly crude scenario, but it's a good illustration of what I mean. Just because one party member starts to go grey it can be roleplayed as a setup for other party members to get some introspection into their character's and their choices/lives, quite possibly causing their actions from then on to be swayed a little more evil until soon enough everyone has actually strayed from the path.
W E Ray (or Billy, if you decide you have the time to run this) what do you think about 3rd party classes? I'm especially interested in Path of War, both the original material and the current playtest classes. What do you think?
I have an idea of a Soulknife (Soul bolt archetype)/Marksman if it is allowed... though I guess I can come up with something else if not.
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I prefer to avoid 3PP at almost all costs -- but I'm also a firm believer that DMs should try to allow the Players to make the PC they want to make to maximize their enjoyment (We invest so much of our precious-little free time to this; we should get as much as possible out of it!).
Here's my answer:
If you have an alternate PC concept that you would also really enjoy playing, please present that one (I'm not sure of the tone with your "I guess I can come up with something..." statement). I know most Players have lots more PC concepts than campaigns just like DMs have lots more adventure ideas than gaming sessions!
Think about this, it's a game with a DM you don't know who doesn't know you -- and who is still relatively new to PBP. In fact, none of us really know each other's gaming style, and we don't have the option of hanging out or discussing stuff over the table.
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I had an idea for a campaign where the overarching theme is that the PCs will slowly change alignment.
All the players would start out as good aligned characters and slowly play the through the process of falling from grace.
Hopefully the endpoint for the campaign would be the now villains coming up with and then carrying out some sufficiently dastardly plot.
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So,... thus were the words that got us all interested in this Thread -- and it looks like I'm going to attempt running it.
I now have a good handle on a framework for a campaign of this nature, to be developed and, of course, modified as you make your PCs and play the game.
But first I want to throw a few things out, to begin a dialog with prospective players, about how the campaign should be played -- to make sure we're all looking for the same experience. ...So peruse my relevant thoughts and posit your own opinions.
I figure in a couple days or so I'll be ready to start a new Thread for serious Recruitment, giving everyone here a Link. I'll likely start that Thread with an edited version of what follows--
PC Generation:
I don't like auditing Crunch. I don't like Crunch. I know the rules very well and have been doing this for a long time -- I'm competent -- but it's not what I enjoy about playing D&D. I'm here for the roleplay & story. So,... please be honest and try to make my job easier.
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Alignment
More importantly, and I can't emphasize this enough, for me, Chaotic and Lawful are PERSONALITY alignments while Good and Evil are ETHICAL alignments. I know this can really undermine all the dynamic of Neutral but it doesn't have to, there is plenty of room for alignment outside of Chaos & Law / Good & Evil.
For the game, understand this, YOU define what the alignment means for YOUR PC. The other players decide for their PCs -- MY NPCs will all have the definition I gave a paragraph ago. It is NO PROBLEM AT ALL if two players have slightly different interpretations of what LG means for their Paladins. I can absolutely go into detail with examples if you'd like. But for me a LG Wizard has a "lawful" personality and is "good" morally. And that's how ALL the NPCs will be.
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Grognards
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Gameplay
I guess I could go on but there's really no need.
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Technology
Just in terms of abilities, point buy or rolled?
What Darkest said, and how many points or what roll method. Though it may be getting a bit ahead, what kind of starting wealth as well.
Another question for you is what races will be allowed? the core ones only can be more than a bit boring, though I have an idea bouncing around using them.
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Point buy -- but I'm willing to listen to a roll-for-abilities argument and consider it in context to the game we're about to play and what suits it better.
I'm open to look at all applications (regardless of Race, etc.). If, on the other hand, you propose a gunslinger, I'll track you to your home, rip out the pages of your UC that have that gawd-offal thing, and thus improve your life and humanity.
Yeah, not quite ready for specific build guidelines -- Outside of starting at Taldor and having a few of the NPCs ready (cuz I've used 'em before) I'm really still in the embryo stage of design. So I don't yet know just how high (or medium or low) powered we should go.
I was hoping you guys would throw a few things out there that would give me a bit more time.
.... I think starting with a short "good-guys adventure" (save the princess / get the cat out of the tree / help the old lady with her groceries -- D&D style of course). This way we can all get a feel for each other's "goodness" -- thus enjoy more the eventual fall. Then I'll introduce an NPC or two that can be a catalyst to change things, or maybe a few different perspectives introduced by already known NPCs. Then the PCs kinda take over, more Sandboxy.
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Epiphany!
I think it would be great -- when we start proposing character concepts -- to publicly post the starting alignment and state-of-PC, and only PM your ideas for a fall from grace.
This way the other Players only know your good side and have no idea (especially if you're clever) of how you'll fall to the Dark Side.
That sounds like an interesting idea, I like it, and I understand about the stage, I just recently started a home brew campaign of my own and it is one hell of a difference from running an ap online.
What kinds of feedback would you want us to give you just now?
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all questions / comments / expectant-ideas-of-the-campaign are welcome & encouraged at this point.
Not sure how satisfactory my responses can be yet....
But rest assured on two things: first, right now most stuff is preeety open, and second, when I'm ready to start recruitment in earnest (and start another Thread, I'll have everything I need to have nailed down and give clear descriptions of the campaign guidelines.
Fair enough.
Now here's another idea, since this campaign starts good and slides into evil, will it then turn all that around and bring redemption in the end? Be an interesting way to go about things I think, and depending on just how dark the pcs go, the act that redeems them would be suitably golarian shattering in it's impact.
Ah, the vader syndrome.
As long as we get to kill jar jar.
:)
I like what I have heard so far W E Ray. I'm assuming we will be able to decide what it is exactly that finally drags our souls down into the abyss.
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Who says you aren't going to the 9 Hells, instead?! Mwahahahaha
You can't kill Jar Jar -- I'm not yet done torturing it to death.
Wow Drogeny, I hadn't thought of that but I love it.
.... I think that this is something we as a group will get to discuss in the next few days (and I don't know that it's an early priority) but I think that it will ultimately depend on two things: the individual Player and his or her idea for that PC -- and how the campaign develops and plays out. And just because I love the idea doesn't mean everyone will.
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Remember also that, whatever your character concepts are developing into that 1: We still gotta play as a group; you gotta have a reason to stay as a "team" or something like that. And 2: Please allow the campaign and its NPCs an opportunity to play a roll in your character as well. I'm not writing a novel that railroads your PC; don't write your own novel, start to finish, of your PC. Leave some room open for development.
Who knows, maybe some of us won't even want redemption!
And I like Jar Jar... >.>
Stealing a bit from the clone wars, but also game of thrones, a civil war is an excellent war to slide to evil. Taldor is rife with possibilities for that. If the King (er...emperor?) dies, his daughter is is legally unable to take the throne, but tries to anyway. Other unscrupulous nobles with distance relation to the throne step up and suddenly you have a multi sided war. Add in threats from other kingdoms in the south, west and north and the place would quickly become a quagmire. The party starts off with idealistic followers of one side or other (say the princess) and are the war progresses, pragmatic or ordered decisions slowly convert idealism into dogma into callousness.
For example, a group of Saranrae cultists are found hiding in the northern woods, trading with a rival healing for supplies. We are ordered to exterminate them. ("Wipe them out! All of them!" or if your want actual historical quote "Massacre them. The lord knows his own.")
After many such deeds, a moment of redemption may happen.
Just thinking out loud.
Sounds really interesting. I have a few ideas that could work out; cant wait for recruitment.
Any war would be a good backdrop for it, a civil war even more so.
Something that is more intruige based would be an interesting basis as well, after all nothing aids a fall so much as when the lines between right and wrong become grey or almost non-existent.
The gaining of more power makes a good basis for it too, after all, power corrupts.