To tug this towards shutting down other spell casters that are not casting Limited Wish into Geas, another option that is a bit harder to implement is option paralysis. Give them too much going on to think about, too many variables to calculate easily and keep an eye on the clock. Don't give players half a hour to dig through their sheet, count squares and otherwise dither about until they find just the right thing to do.
Sometimes these mistakes make great adventuring stories as well.
Still, would a spellcaster hurt by continuous damage need a concentration check in order to cast a quickened spell?
Besides Lingering Pain, what other things count as inflicting continuous damage?
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"Is 'Obey me for X days' a single command?"
If you could say Yes or No to the above question and why you think that way, it would help me to understand your argument better. I'll answer it first.
I think once you answer that we can have a more productive discussion as I'm still not sure what exactly you are arguing.
I'll probably regret this, but hey. Boredom.
"Obey me" is a single command that compels multiple services. Fortunately, the spell calls out both requirements, with "a magical command" and "some service" both being singular.
And no, that is not "how the English language works", given that I've broken out the dictionary three times in this thread to disagree with you.
You really need to climb off the "100% RAW" high horse, because it's not helping your case.
Actually, in the PF book Liar's Blade...
Zaqen is under a geas to completely follow Obed's every order. She makes it clear that she literally can not defy him, and the geas apparently has no "end date."
So while I wouldn't take Pathfinder Tales at 100% face value for rules interpretation, there's definitely an instance of an official Paizo product with a character using a geas that is essentially "follow my orders." Perhaps even so far as "obey my orders to both the spirit and the letter." That said...
Going back to the interpretation thing, everyone is free to interpret the rules as they wish, but there is really only one definition that would be Rules as Intended. I think that rather than picking apart the English language to decide how the spell works, it would be easier to simply look at similar spells, and look at the intent behind geas/quest.
It's essentially a more powerful version of dominate monster in just about every way: no saving throw, infinite duration, no Sense Motive to determine the spell is in place, difficult to break free, etc. It has really only one limitation. Casting time.
This is the main reason why I wouldn't allow the limited wish into geas to work at my table. It really piddles with game balance if used in certain situations. Anything that can bypass so many foes in such an absurd way would be too silly to allow under most circumstances. I would need to have a lot of confidence in the players that they were doing it for the sake of a game that is more fun for everyone at the table, GM included.
because a a "patch" is just not feasible in a print game.havent they printed six editions of the core rulebook
Not to mention errata and FAQs.
"Is 'Obey me for X days' a single command?"
If you could say Yes or No to the above question and why you think that way, it would help me to understand your argument better. I'll answer it first.
I think once you answer that we can have a more productive discussion as I'm still not sure what exactly you are arguing.
I'll probably regret this, but hey. Boredom.
"Obey me" is a single command that compels multiple services. Fortunately, the spell calls out both requirements, with "a magical command" and "some service" both being singular.
And no, that is not "how the English language works", given that I've broken out the dictionary three times in this thread to disagree with you.
You really need to climb off the "100% RAW" high horse, because it's not helping your case.
It is a single magic command that leads to a single service. The single service is that the target obey. Please cite a dictionary that contradicts this, as I'd be very curious to see it.
I'm sorry but "Obey me for X days." is a completely valid RAW command that needs no interpretation. I literally cannot comprehend your argument that "obey me" compels multiple services. It does not. It compels one service, namely that the target obey the caster. And I am more then willing to admit I am wrong if you can demonstrate an interpretation otherwise. Obviously, saying "Obey Me" somehow is multiple services rather then one (that the target obey) will not suffice, unless you can demonstrate that such an interpretation is grammatically correct.
"Is 'Obey me for X days' a single command?"
If you could say Yes or No to the above question and why you think that way, it would help me to understand your argument better. I'll answer it first.
I think once you answer that we can have a more productive discussion as I'm still not sure what exactly you are arguing.
I'll probably regret this, but hey. Boredom.
"Obey me" is a single command that compels multiple services. Fortunately, the spell calls out both requirements, with "a magical command" and "some service" both being singular.
And no, that is not "how the English language works", given that I've broken out the dictionary three times in this thread to disagree with you.
You really need to climb off the "100% RAW" high horse, because it's not helping your case.
Rather than picking apart the English language to decide how the spell works, it would be easier to simply look at similar spells, and look at the intent behind geas/quest.
It's essentially a more powerful version of dominate monster in just about every way: no saving throw, infinite duration, no Sense Motive to determine the spell is in place, difficult to break free, etc. It has really only one limitation. Casting time.
This is the main reason why I wouldn't allow the limited wish into geas to work at my table. It really piddles with game balance if used in certain situations. Anything that can bypass so many foes in such an absurd way would be too silly to allow under most circumstances. I would need to have a lot of confidence in the players that they were doing it for the sake of a game that is more fun for everyone at the table, GM included.
Thank you. This is a perfect example of how to disagree with RAW.
So let's get back to shutting down spell casters. My memory fails me, but isn't there some sort of poison or gas that lowers/damages Intelligence or Wisdom or Charisma (depending on whom you face)? I know that sort of thing has existed in other games (used to great effect in Shadowrun, for example) but I don't recall offhand the names of something quick and potent for Pathfinder.
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Word games. Flag it and move on instead of continuing to feed him.
Not to mention errata and FAQs.because a a "patch" is just not feasible in a print game.havent they printed six editions of the core rulebook
It's also, arguably, an overhaul of a previous overhaul (3.5) of a system (3e).
It's almost as if there are some baseline assumptions and ground-floor mechanics that are going to need to be adjusted.
You're not trying to have a discussion, Anzyr. Which is why I knew I would regret typing that-- and you weren't fast enough to hit me in the boredom phase when I would have walked into it anyway.
When you actually want to have a meaningful, engaging discussion, feel free to let me know by taking the time to read the posts I've written and actually responding to them instead of saying "I don't understand" over and over again. See... when I answered your question that you specifically posited so you could understand the counterargument, and your response is "I don't understand?"
That's not a meaningful discussion. You either literally cannot process the notion that people might disagree with you, you're being willfully ignorant and hoping that if you shout loud enough everyone will stop talking, or you simply can't be arsed to try to understand by reading the thread, where I've already done the thing you asked.
I don't know which it is, but I'm frankly beyond caring. So:
I disagree with you.
I disagree with you based on words that you yourself wrote and supported by the Merriam-Webster dictionary.
I am highly unlikely to agree with you, especially given that you're not even attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue.
I am far from alone in this opinion, as this thread should amply demonstrate. This is a divided question and is divided based on the literal words written on the page.
Given that it's divided based on the words on the page, you do not have a RAW stance. You have what you believe to be the RAI stance.
Unless you can convince Mark and his team to issue an FAQ on exactly how Geas works and what its limits are, that is the best you will have. And that's fine. This game runs on RAI. But when you masquerade around with your interpretation as the One True RAW that we must all follow, you turn yourself from a respected member into a joke and a laughingstock-- that is literally what you have done, in my eyes, over the last three days.
I'd like to move this to PMs and have sent one in that regard, so let's drop the issue for this thread and return to original topic.
So let's get back to shutting down spell casters. My memory fails me, but isn't there some sort of poison or gas that lowers/damages Intelligence or Wisdom or Charisma (depending on whom you face)? I know that sort of thing has existed in other games (used to great effect in Shadowrun, for example) but I don't recall offhand the names of something quick and potent for Pathfinder.Couple poisons do it, but poisons... are still kind of terrible. Unchained's poisons and diseases are better, and the appropriate one (an Int poison for Wizards, Wis for Clerics, etc., or any Mental Disease) locks out the highest level of casting and knocks two points off the DC as their starter effect. The problem is the saves, which are still low. The highest DC poison in Unchained that targets a mental stat is 18, highest Disease is 16.
Feeblemind is the supercounter if you can drive the Will save home. 5th level spell and Arcane casters eat a -4 to their save, but that's still not necessarily easy. 'Course, if you can land it they move from "one of the most dangerous people on the planet" to "prey animal".
Of course, if you are landing Feeblemind you probably could have landed suffocate instead. Will at a -4 penalty would be roughly equal to Fort for a non-wis based caster. Plus suffoctate works on anything that breathes, and has an effect on a successful save.
Besides Lingering Pain, what other things count as inflicting continuous damage?
Bleed damage, being on fire, acid arrow, standing in a duration damaging spell like frost fall just to name a few.
So let's get back to shutting down spell casters. My memory fails me, but isn't there some sort of poison or gas that lowers/damages Intelligence or Wisdom or Charisma (depending on whom you face)? I know that sort of thing has existed in other games (used to great effect in Shadowrun, for example) but I don't recall offhand the names of something quick and potent for Pathfinder.Poison DC's tend to be low and fairly easily resisted even by classes with poor fortitude saves. Arcane casters have an incentive to boost their fort save so I wouldn't expect them to have much of a weakness there. Even if you do land it the damage tends to be fairly small and take quite a long time to do anything while also offering extra saves to get rid of it.
Against divine casters Clerics and Druids are both rocking good fortitude saves with reasons to invest in charisma Oracles have divine protection and all three can cast delay poison which lasts an hour per level.
Poison is just not a very effective option.
And Absorb Toxicity is a 5th level Wizard spell with a decent (10min/lv) duration that makes the caster immune to all diseases and poisons. Witches and Druids get it a full level before Wizards and Alchemists get it as a 3rd level extract.
And Absorb Toxicity is a 5th level Wizard spell with a decent (10min/lv) duration that makes the caster immune to all diseases and poisons. Witches and Druids get it a full level before Wizards and Alchemists get it as a 3rd level extract.So let's get back to shutting down spell casters. My memory fails me, but isn't there some sort of poison or gas that lowers/damages Intelligence or Wisdom or Charisma (depending on whom you face)? I know that sort of thing has existed in other games (used to great effect in Shadowrun, for example) but I don't recall offhand the names of something quick and potent for Pathfinder.Poison DC's tend to be low and fairly easily resisted even by classes with poor fortitude saves. Arcane casters have an incentive to boost their fort save so I wouldn't expect them to have much of a weakness there. Even if you do land it the damage tends to be fairly small and take quite a long time to do anything while also offering extra saves to get rid of it.
Against divine casters Clerics and Druids are both rocking good fortitude saves with reasons to invest in charisma Oracles have divine protection and all three can cast delay poison which lasts an hour per level.
Poison is just not a very effective option.
There is no reason to expect enemy spellcasters to have every single buff Spell with 10/min pr level duration up( unless he is Holding his cat familiar in a box). But i agree that poison is not amazing.
Ultimately, the problem I find with universal solutions for dealing with casters is that casters are extremely varied, even within their specific types of caster (i.e. arcane or divine). An arcane caster can be/have all of the following:
High AC
Good Saves
Physical Combat Oriented
Grapple oriented
Headbutt his enemies (if you think I'm kidding combine magus plus the dwarven boulder helmet)
Basically, there are things that will work well against some casters, but very poorly against others. Seeing as you can't control what the caster is/does, I would recommend looking at options that remove you as a target (since you really can't control your allies, either). Readying an action to move out of sight when the caster begins to cast can remove you from their target list (which can be really effective if everyone in your group readies the same action; this is also a highly effective way to deal with charge based characters, btw).
Finding ways to make yourself better are a good idea as well: carrying items that move status conditions (potions of lesser restoration remove blindness/deafness are a fantastic investment at the middle game and higher, for example), trying to insure that your saves are good, especially your Fort and Will saves (since for a large part, the Ref save failures mostly just inflict higher amounts of damage). Have good touch armor class (Dexterity can help here, but there are other ways to do it as well). Having a high enough UMD can turn anyone into a pseudo-caster, too (wands are only dc 20, after all).
Everyone should carry a ranged weapon of some kind (even if they're suboptimal with it). Unlike a potion of fly, arrows shot from a bow can't be dispelled.
Okay, can I get feedback on this idea of a Mage Killer?
a Half Elf Kensai with Dwarven Racial Heritage
VMC Wizard (Void school)
Arcana (6 - 1 = 5)
Disruptive
Spellbreaker
Lingering Pain
Bane Blade
Reflection
Bonus FCB Arcana (3)
Flamboyant Arcana
Arcane Deed: Precise Strike
Arcane Deed: Evasive
Feats (5 + 2 = 7)
EWP: Whip (Kensai)
Weapon Focus: Whip (Kensai)
Racial Heritage: Dwarf
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Weapon Finesse
Slashing Grace: Whip
Bonus Magus Feats (3)
Shatter Spell
Quicken Spell
Extra Arcana: Spell Blending: Planar Binding
His weapon will be a +1 Phase Locking Distracting Whip. According to JJ, the Monowhip should work with all whip related feats, so if possible I'll upgrade to it. Worst comes to worst I get rid of Distracting for Agile. With Arcane Pool, he can add +4 Keen and Bane, making it a +10 weapon.
I contemplated making him STR based to save on feats, but then he couldn't be assured to win Initiative, so I decided against it.
The Void school should give him a bonus to his saves against spells and his familiar will be a Greensting Scorpion to help further boost his initiative. The Arcane Discovery I chose for him will be "Knowledge is Power" to help boost his CMB and CMD to competitive levels.
Planar Binding is just to get access to Wish from an Efretti.
His attack plan is to beat their initiative and then Dimension Door next to them and Full Attack. If he doesn't kill them, he leaves them with a difficult to make Concentration check. If they still win Initiative and turtle up with say, Prismatic Sphere, then he counters with Shatter Spell. If they Time Stop and buff up their combat capability, then he'll attempt to strip them of key spells with Greater Dispel Magic, or Arcane Spell Thief.
What's his weakness?
What is he getting from the dwarf blood?
Shatter Spell.
Shatter Spell.
ok thanks for answering.
It's possible to get a +13 INT mod with access to Wish, though extra finagling required to abuse Planar Bound Efreeti.
18 (Point buy) + 2 (Race) + 5 (levels) + 5 (Wish) + 6 (Enhancement) = 36 = +13
Hemorrhages Point buy though. Ah, Improved Initiative. That one is going to be annoying to fit in, but I suppose I can take your advice. If I go with Agile instead of Distracting, I can save on Slashing Grace and go for Swashbuckler's Initiative too, I guess. Then I'd only need a 16 in INT for Point Buy, which is much more manageable.
Probably shouldn't forget to add the "Dueling" weapon Property, either. Fairly certain whips count on that front.
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The latter is based on Spell Combat's deliciously cheesy interaction with Dimension Door: you can declare Spell Combat, teleport via Dimension Door, and then still get off your attack sequence, since you are not taking "any other actions". Thus are the joys of Spell Combat being a single action that does a lot of stuff....
I think this one is debatable. Some would say that the turn is over after the teleport even if it stops mid action.
I can use Dimensional Agility instead of Swashbuckler's Initiative and just take the tanked stats, I suppose.
Don't really need the Sandals though, since Kensai are never surprised, and act perfectly fine in the surprise round.
I can use Dimensional Agility instead of Swashbuckler's Initiative and just take the tanked stats, I suppose.
Don't really need the Sandals though, since Kensai are never surprised, and act perfectly fine in the surprise round.
there are two feats in not taking the spellsunder 2/Day but it is a very good trick.
It's pretty much necessary, IMO. Prismatic Spheres and other caster defenses are all but impossible to get through without some version of Spell Sunder, and Shatterspell is the only way for the Magus to get it.
I am considering the possibility of VMC Barbarian, but it seems like Rage is somewhat of a waste if I'm DEX based instead of STR based, which I have to be if I want to be competitive with Initiative. And I'll still need Agile Maneuvers instead of Knowledge Is Power, so it's not like I'll be saving that much.
I wonder if I can take Unchained Barbarian's Rage, but keep the regular Barbarian's rage powers with the VMC? That way, I can be Dex based, gain the benefit of raging, and still have access to Spell Sunder.
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If you take Spell Combat's feat description that literally then you cannot cast dimensional door because it has a casting time of 1 swift action and the feat specifically states it must have a casting time of 1 standard action.
We are assuming the Kensai catches Wizards when they have their pants down? No prep spells or other defenses that wizards would have in place at all times, like Contingency?
You could use the Dimensional Dervish feat to teleport in, make a full attack, and pop out again, but it's more limited, and requires three feats.
Contingency is hard to account for, since it's so flexible. That said, one of the more common contingencies is to teleport away to safety, so that the wizard can cast some prep spells before re-entering combat. The Phase Locking weapon would prevent that, at least to some degree (I suppose one could dispel the lock with a quickened dispel and then pop out, but that could be tricky depending on circumstances).
If you take Spell Combat's feat description that literally then you cannot cast dimensional door because it has a casting time of 1 swift action and the feat specifically states it must have a casting time of 1 standard action.
We are assuming the Kensai catches Wizards when they have their pants down? No prep spells or other defenses that wizards would have in place at all times, like Contingency?
DD dosent have a swift action as casting time.
Dimension Door is a Standard Action, and thus useable with Spell Combat.
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... If the two detect each other at equal range and are immediately aware of each other? The Kensai gets a surprise round.
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Why is that?
I would love to see how you consistently make a concentration check of 55-- or 59, if you want to summon big guns; 55 was assuming a Wall.
25 (Caster Level) + 13 (Int, it can get higher than that) + 4 Trait + 6 Feats + 7 Items = +55 Concentration plus I can take 10s. There are more that I didn't add in, those are just the basics.
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i think you May have to break that number up even further, for dimwits like me. And i dont think you can take 10, with out a special power that let you, since it is a stressfull situation.
Edit: how do you get 5 permanent summoned creatures?
The Kensai's level 13 ability includes always acting during the surprise round.Why is that?...
... If the two detect each other at equal range and are immediately aware of each other? The Kensai gets a surprise round.
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But if no one is suprised there is no suprise round.