Dying from negative hit points while CO-Damage


Rules Questions


Hi together.

Yesterday we fought a Peluda and ran into a problem.
The Peluda deals CO-damage with her poison. It happened, that one character dropped from 14 to 8 CO.
Overall (including the hitpoint damage dealt by the CO-damage)he dropped to -9 hp.

Is he dead?

CRB->Combat->Dead.
"When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead."

So what is the "Constitution score"?

We read this:
CRB->Glossary->Ability Score Damage, Drain, Penalty
"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."

So first sentence seemed to make it clear:
if current hp < CO-Score you die (first quotet rule).
if you take CO-Damage it lowers your CO-Score (second quotet rule).
so: if current hp < current CO = you die.

But whats that second sentence? It states that it would not actually reduce the "ability". What the hack is the difference between "ability" and "ability score"? We couldnt solve this mystery...

So we tried to get more input and read this:
CRB->Glossary-> Ability drain.
"Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."

The words are chosen pretty badly. They say it "actually reduces ... the relevant ability score". Well, not that helpful, since ability damage already reduces the "ability score". it only doesnt reduce the "ability". Wich makes no sense since they wanna point out a difference saying "actually".

After reading and reading i couldnt get that straight. I think this is how its meant:

Ability-Drain: you die from CO = 0 and you die from negative hp equal to CO-Score including the Drain (10 CO, 4 Co-Drain you die when being at -6hp).
Ability-Damage: you die from CO = 0 but you still need to drop to your original CO-Score (without CO-Damage) to die by negative hp.
Ability-Penalty: you cant drop to 0 CO and you still need to drop to your original CO-Score (without CO-Penalty) to die by negative hp.

Is that correct, and is there any other sources i forgot?
ty already


I agree the phrasing is poor. But i think this is what it means:

Ability-Drain: you die from CO = 0 and you die from negative hp equal to CO-Score including the Drain (10 CO, 4 Co-Drain you die when being at -6hp).
Ability-Damage: you die from CO = 0 and you die from negative hp equal to CO-Score including the damage
Ability-Penalty: you cant drop to 0 CO and you die from negative hp equal to CO-Score including the penalty

What they mean by 'does or does not actually reduce the ability score', is the reduction in the maximum ability score. Ability drain actually reduces your maximum ability score, whereas a penalty is only temporary and damage can be healed.

'but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability'
So al long as you have damage or a penalty, your ability score is reduced for all effective purposes, although as I said, I agree the phrasing is poor. This means that you should treat the con score as lower than the original, even though it is temporary. you lose maximum hp and yes, would die faster at negative hp.


Marking for interest.


There is no material difference between 'ability' and 'ability score'.

So ability damage never actually reduces your ability score. you just compare the damage you have taken to the relevant score.
Compare

PRD on ability damage wrote:
If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score,
to regular damage
PRD on damage wrote:
Damage reduces a target's current hit points.

Penalties work the same way as damage.

Ability damage: you die from negative HP damage = your full con or abiilty damage equal to your full con.
Ability penalty: you can only die from negative HP damage = your normal con.
Ability drain: you die from negative HP damage = your drained con or drain equal to your normal con.

It only gets a little messy if you have a mix of penalties, drain and damage - I am not sure whether penalties and damage stack and if so which applies first (i.e if you have a 10 con and 5 points of damage and a penalty of -5 are you dead?)

One thing to note is that with ability damage the only penalties you take are those listed, so for example strength ability damage doesn't actually affect your carrying capacity. Ability drain actually reduces your ability so affects every aspect of that ability and will reduce carrying capacity.


Yeah, the only question is if this FAQ:

Quote:
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.

applies to ability damage as well.


That FAQ only applies to drain as both ability score bonuses and drain actually change the ability score.

It doesn't apply to damage or penalties because they don't actually change the affected ability score. They impose penalties based on the amount of damage/penalty you are affected by.

Another example. Strength 16.
1 point of ability drain actually reduces the score to 15. you will now be treated in all respects as strength 15.

1 point of ability damage does nothing thanks to this little snippet:

PRD wrote:
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Your strength is still actually 16.


I posted this response and examples in an earlier thread. It may be helpful here as ability drain versus damage is often misunderstood.

Lakesidefantasy wrote:


An important distinction is that ability damage does not affect your ability score. If you have a strength of 16 and you take 3 points of strength damage your strength score is still 16.

On the other hand ability drain actually lowers your ability score. Three points of strength drain would lower a 16 strength to a 13.

For every 2 points of ability damage, you take a -1 to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. (However, I don't know if this would have any effect on things like carrying capacity and what level of spells you can cast.)

The distinction can be important. For instance, 3 points of ability damage to a 16 strength imparts a -1 penalty to attack rolls, but 3 points of drain would lower the score to 13 and subsequently lower attack rolls by 2.

Ability damage is tracked separately and counts up from zero (similar to non-lethal hit point damage). If your ability damage equals or exceeds your ability score you fall unconscious, with the exception of constitution damage--in which case you die.

Ability drain subtracts directly from your ability score (similar to lethal hit point damage). If your ability score is lowered to zero different things happen, you don't always go unconscious, as in the case with dexterity.

So for instance, you could have a strength score of 16 and suffer 3 points of damage. You would now be taking a -1 penalty to attack rolls and swim checks etc. Later you could take 3 points of strength drain which would lower your score to 13 and your attack rolls would be lowered by 2 while simultaneously suffering a -1 penalty from the 3 points of damage. Later on you could get walloped for 10 more points of damage and fall unconscious because your total accumulated strength damage is 13 which is equal to your score of 13 down from 16 because of the drain.


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As to the original question, I believe the character who suffered the peluda's attacks would not be dead in the scenario presented. The character suffered damage to their constitution score rather than drain, so they would not die until -14 hit points.


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Lakesidefantasy wrote:
As to the original question, I believe the character who suffered the peluda's attacks would not be dead in the scenario presented. The character suffered damage to their constitution score rather than drain, so they would not die until -14 hit points.

I agree. Ability damage does not alter your ability score: it just imposes penalties, just like the description says: "This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but [b]it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."

If the character had taken Con drain, he would be dead.
If the character had taken Con damage, he's still alive.

Note that Con damage will reduce your hit points, so you are easier to kill with Con damage. But they still have to get you to -(your actual Con score).


So if you are under a Bear's Endurance spell, you do not then gain any negative HPs before you die?

I think the intention is that it matters what your Con is at the second you are at negatives to determine when you die, not what it would be if you were healed.


It appears that bear's endurance increases your actual ability score, so you would gain actual hit points and you could take 4 more hit points of damage before dying (-18 rather than -14).


@lakesidefantasy:
how does this: "An important distinction is that ability damage does not affect your ability score."

go along with this:
"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores."

I mean the rule is literally saying the exact opposite of your interpretation. except for the following sentence that states that your "ability" is not affected.
either thats simply b+@%%~#@ with 2 sentences in the same rule saying the exact opposite of each other, or there needs to be a difference between "ability" and "ability score". but i cant find that difference.
however if there is any kind of difference, the rule make sense again, since the rule about death says you day at negative CO-"Score" and ability damage affects the "ability score" but not the "ability".
but if thats correct, there is no difference between ability damage and drain anymore, except for the way of healing it.

this is kinda weird. i did get into trouble with pathfinder rules many times yet, but in very specific cases(like two-shield-fighting).
But deciding if a character dies or not is pretty much the most basic thing in an rpg, and the rule is not even at this basic point clear -.-
sry 4 the flame but i´m a bit pissed atm, since i cant find any "official" statement about that case, and i dont think im "reading problems into the rule" that arent there...


Bear's endurance does not increase your actual score. You need access to a temporary score for 24 hours before it becomes permanent.

As for the OP's question you die based on the original constitution score.


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Actually, if you read the whole FAQ, it does. Your death would be based on your current Constitution, not what your score would be without temporary modifiers.

FAQ wrote:

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.

For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.

Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.

A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.

It even talks about how carrying capacity is actually affected, but not mentioned in the temporary rules. This is a case of making up a fake rule to make the real rule simple which in turn makes everything complicated as possible. In one way, you might die, and another you might live. But both are valid.

So, I guess you should decide as a table, or PFS should decide as a sub-system if that makes sense, which version will be used in regards to characters: The quick way, or the precise way.

I am sure my table will go with the precise way when I bring this to it. But YMMV.


The difference between ability damage versus ability drain sows a lot of confusion. But, I think now that we have brought temporary versus permanent bonuses into the conversation it has made it unesseccarily more confusing.

I wish I had more time to write more but I'll just have to wait till later.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:

The difference between ability damage versus ability drain sows a lot of confusion. But, I think now that we have brought temporary versus permanent bonuses into the conversation it has made it unesseccarily more confusing.

I wish I had more time to write more but I'll just have to wait till later.

It does. Remembering that every -2 ability damage equal -1 modifier, no matter what your score is, is an often overlooked rule.


wraithstrike wrote:
Lakesidefantasy wrote:

The difference between ability damage versus ability drain sows a lot of confusion. But, I think now that we have brought temporary versus permanent bonuses into the conversation it has made it unesseccarily more confusing.

I wish I had more time to write more but I'll just have to wait till later.

It does. Remembering that every -2 ability damage equal -1 modifier, no matter what your score is, is an often overlooked rule.

So basically the character woulda died because the character would had to minus 3 hit points per level right. Or would that only be the total hit points and if the character was already lower than the minus from his total, it wouldn't effect the actual hit points they had?

Tbh the drain and damage is very confusing.


Continue reading the section to the end, where it says:
"Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."

Only ability drain reduces the ability score. Ability damage does not adjust the actual ability score, it just applies penalties based on how much ability damage you've taken.

Con damage can't kill you by itself; Con drain can.
Con damage does not reduce your actual Con score and therefore does not change how many hit points below 0 you have to take before you die.

Here's why it's confusing:
The ability damage text says:
"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores." At this point, "dealing damage to an ability score" is not defined: we don't have any idea what this means.

It's the next sentence is where they define this new term and explain what that means:
"This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability."

Until they give us that second sentence, "deal damage to an ability score" doesn't have any actual meaning in game terms.


Well, I'd feel bad after almost killing my player last session from this very thing. But I'll console myself in thinking no, it's right to have lower con mean lower threshold. So I don't feel bad at all.


You know what does have a relevant meaning in game terms:

FAQ wrote:
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

It doesn't matter HOW you get a lower Con. If you have a lower Con, you have a lower Con. When you have a lower Con, you die faster. You die faster because you have less hit points and because your threshold after reaching 0 and below is lower. That is what it means to, "affect all of the same stats and rolls..."

The FAQ clearly states that the rules that Gwen Smith stated were only to keep the game moving faster. The FAQ also goes on to say that really, the penalties should affect everything.

It isn't confusing. It just sucks that there are clearly two competing rulings for applying any type of ability damage/drain/penalty. There is the "quick" method and "precise" method, as laid out in the FAQ.

Again, your table will have to choose which one to follow.


Gwen Smith wrote:

Continue reading the section to the end, where it says:

"Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."

Only ability drain reduces the ability score. Ability damage does not adjust the actual ability score, it just applies penalties based on how much ability damage you've taken.

Con damage can't kill you by itself; Con drain can.
Con damage does not reduce your actual Con score and therefore does not change how many hit points below 0 you have to take before you die.

One correction, Con damage can kill you. It just can't cause your death by changing the negative HP threshold you die at.

PRD wrote:
If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.

Sorry for the pedantry, this one time seemed appropriate though.


Komoda wrote:


It doesn't matter HOW you get a lower Con.

Constitution damage does not lower your constitution score.

Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:


If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.

Constitution damage is tracked separately from your score. When you take ability score damage you add up rather than subtract down.


i think we´ll follow the FAQ way.
i just cant Play this:

Lakesidefantasy wrote:

Constitution damage does not lower your constitution score.

while the rules are saying this:

CRB wrote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores

thanks for all the replies!

edit: komoda can you post a link to the FAQ section?


The FAQ _Ozy_ linked upthread

I'm sorry we couldn't help clarify it for you.


An interesting thing to note is that the effects of an ability score of zero found in the "Getting Started" section of the Core Rulebook pertain to an actual score decrease as in the case with ability score drain.

On the other hand, the section on ability score damage found in the "Glossary" describe the effects when the damage equals your score.

For instance consider Dexterity;

Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:


If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score.

versus,

Core Rulebook Getting Started wrote:


A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).

There is a fundamental difference between ability score damage and ability score drain.


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Baumfluch wrote:

i think we´ll follow the FAQ way.

i just cant Play this:
Lakesidefantasy wrote:

Constitution damage does not lower your constitution score.

while the rules are saying this:

CRB wrote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores

thanks for all the replies!

edit: komoda can you post a link to the FAQ section?

The CRB explains what that means IMMEDIATELY thereafter.

CRB wrote:
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

It goes on to list for each ability what should be adjusted when one takes damage to that ability.

CRB wrote:
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.

It does not list the point at which one dies from HP damage as one of these statistics, therefore, it is not altered by constitution damage, but only constitution drain.

Having constitution damage apply a penalty to how far you can go into the negatives is a completely reasonable house rule, but it's pretty clear that ability damage only does precisely what it says it does, and nothing more.

The question of what happens if someone has Bear's Endurance in effect and goes into the negatives is a little trickier. Based on the CRB text alone, I would have argued otherwise, but then the FAQ contradicts it.

Note that the FAQ specifically says bonuses, which does not include penalties or damage. FAQs should not be generalized from; they apply to the specific question and rules they address, only. If the designers wanted this to affect what ability damage does, they would have said so.


Redneckdevil wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Lakesidefantasy wrote:

The difference between ability damage versus ability drain sows a lot of confusion. But, I think now that we have brought temporary versus permanent bonuses into the conversation it has made it unesseccarily more confusing.

I wish I had more time to write more but I'll just have to wait till later.

It does. Remembering that every -2 ability damage equal -1 modifier, no matter what your score is, is an often overlooked rule.

So basically the character woulda died because the character would had to minus 3 hit points per level right. Or would that only be the total hit points and if the character was already lower than the minus from his total, it wouldn't effect the actual hit points they had?

Tbh the drain and damage is very confusing.

If the con score was 14 then you still need to get to -14 to die. Con damage does not change that.


Actually, if we take the rules as written, if you take 12 CON damage and have a CON of 14, you should die at -8 [14-(12/2)].

This FAQ on Abilities' bonus should have been addressed to ability damage and penalties too. Although we all can agree that they are temporary adjustments, they are not called out to follow the same rules as Ability temporary bonus, so eventhough the stance of Komoda looks reasonable, it is an extrapolation.

And just to add up, what happens when a penalty, which can not reduce an ability below 1, is affecting a creature that then takes damage or is drained? Some people argue that, as you take 2 different tracks for drain and damage, just as lethal and non-lethal damage, they won't interact. But this is a bad proposal, considering that there is only 1 ability. And then we have to keep track of 3 different 'damages'? Can someone with 14 STR be drained for 13 points, have a penalty of -15 STR and got 13 points of STR damage and still be able to move? It depends on the order on which it is affected but those 'damages'? Shouldn't be. Sounds kinda ridiculous to me.

Bottom line is that those rules concerning to ability damage, drain and penalties should get clarified.


"A temporary ability score bonus" aka, temporary Constitution damage, "should affect all of the same stats" aka, Max HP and HP one can go negative", and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Deciding to use the "quick rules" or the "precise rules" is completely legitimate as both are presented as legal options. Deciding that the FAQ does not apply at all, is not.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Seems to me it's a simple hierarchy of effects, not an order of operations problem.

Ability drain affects your actual ability score.
Ability damage imposes a penalty on your ability score's bonus
Ability penalties function like ability damage but cannot reduce a score below 1.

So, Str 14, 13 drain, 13 damage, -15 penalty.

Drain reduces the score to 1.
Damage reduces it to 0, character is unconscious.

Better example: Str 14, 5 drain, 7 damage, -4 penalty.

Drain reduces the score to 9 (modifier is now -1)
Damage applies a -3 penalty (total -4) and because 7 is less than 9 character is still conscious.
Penalty applies no penalty because the combined damage and penalty cannot reduce a score below 1, which in this example is only -1 of the penalty applying, which has no effect on bonus.

Yes, there's the weird case that if the starting score was 15 the penalty would be applying a -1 modifier (because two points of penalty now apply), but it's a trivial matter to say that damage and penalties stack for the purposes of determining the modifier, but cannot have more total damage than the actual score -1 unless the ability damage portion is equal to the score or higher.


Komoda wrote:
"A temporary ability score bonus" aka, temporary Constitution damage

Nope. Those are not in any way the same. Ability damage is not a bonus.

Ability damage "does not actually reduce an ability". It gives specified penalties.

Similarly, rules for how temporary bonus hit points work don't apply to hit point damage.


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Damage is not a bonus. It really isn't.

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