That sounds intriguing...
There will be more posts here from the Paizo staff once PaizoCon is over. The AP staff has not yet conducted their Adventure Path Q&A, which will have a lot more Infformation on Hell's Vengeance. Until then, a couple things:
1) Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance take place at the same time, during the same general rebellion throughout Cheliax. Hell's Vengeance has nothing whatsoever to do with Kintargo, and Hell's Vengeance does not in any way "undo" Hell's Rebels. We've had that concern for months and months, and have planned things accordingly to avoid the problems some people here are worried about.
2) The AP staff is very familiar with Way of the Wicked, and I am certain that they will be taking great pains to provide a very different experience. Although I referenced Asmodeus at the Preview Banquet, in fact the PCs in Hell's Vengeance do NOT work for Asmodeus. They work instead for House Thrune, which isn't the same thing. In fact, friction between House Thrune and Asmodeus is a significant plot point in Hell's Vengeance.
More soon.
Encouraging, especially in relation to WotW. Thank you for the clarifications.
Very very exciting!!
Paizo run officially out of ideas?
I probably won't be able to run this AP as written, since I wouldn't trust one of my players to take the subject matter in a non-cartoony way, and my other mainstay have no interest in evil APs. I'll still get the PDFs though, because even when I don't plan to run the adventures, I can typically mine them for ideas, and I enjoy the reading.
With the additional information, it sounds interesting. I was afraid of it undoing what I was hoping to run for my friends. This seems interesting and I can dig it. Not sure about a back-to-back Cheliax-fest, although I wonder if HV will go outside of Cheliax
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I personally think of this as a trilogy.
Council of Thieves
Hell's Vengeance
Hell's Rebels
So you can run the "a new hope" aspect that (if you play up the rebellion aspect possibility from CoT) leads into the events of Hell's Vengeance, which is the Empire Strikes Back story. Then conclude with Hell's Rebels and you've got your Return of the Jedi.
That order might be up some peoples' alley.
2) The AP staff is very familiar with Way of the Wicked, and I am certain that they will be taking great pains to provide a very different experience. Although I referenced Asmodeus at the Preview Banquet, in fact the PCs in Hell's Vengeance do NOT work for Asmodeus. They work instead for House Thrune, which isn't the same thing. In fact, friction between House Thrune and Asmodeus is a significant plot point in Hell's Vengeance.More soon.
This actually abates much of my fears. I'm personally hoping that it's a more Lawful than EVil AP, with LE being the typical alignment. We haven't really had one of those yet...
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I view this as a chance for people being able to play Hellknight characters that mesh well with the themes of an AP.
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I'll wait to hear more about the AP before I decide. There have been a number of calls for an Evil AP, and I feel glad for the people who will like it. I, though, am probably not one of them.
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2) The AP staff is very familiar with Way of the Wicked, and I am certain that they will be taking great pains to provide a very different experience. Although I referenced Asmodeus at the Preview Banquet, in fact the PCs in Hell's Vengeance do NOT work for Asmodeus. They work instead for House Thrune, which isn't the same thing. In fact, friction between House Thrune and Asmodeus is a significant plot point in Hell's Vengeance.More soon.
I think most of us were misinterpreting the "Hell's Vengeance" title then. Hell's Rebels is about a revolution against Cheliax, so the natural conclusion is that. in Hell'S Vengeance, Cheliax is getting their revenge against somebody -- and evidently not the obvious choice of Kintargo. But now I am beginning to think that the theme of this next AP is literally the vengeance of Hell against Cheliax -- and the strife in Hell's Vengeance will be presented as the reason that the Kintargo rebellion in Hell's Rebels actually has a chance of success.
That's a good guess, David, and would fit with Erik's conjecture that Throne and Asmodeus aren't getting along.
My other notion is that perhaps it is Cheliax getting revenge on one or more of their wayward imperial nations that escaped their grasp- such as Andoran (which had its own recent sourcebook)- and bringing them back into the fold.
I personally was already kind of tired of Cheliax even before Hell's Rebels was announced. So many of their APs involve the damn place and it's one of the most commonly referenced locations I've seen.
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I personally was already kind of tired of Cheliax even before Hell's Rebels was announced. So many of their APs involve the damn place and it's one of the most commonly referenced locations I've seen.
Really? O.O
Of the currently released APs, only Council of Thieves actually takes place there. The argument could be made that Korvosa is Cheliax-like, I suppose. Meanwhile, Cheliax basically had a cameo appearance in Skull & Shackles. That's just about all there is involving Cheliax in the Adventure Paths.
Could you clue me in here, please? What am I missing?
I personally was already kind of tired of Cheliax even before Hell's Rebels was announced. So many of their APs involve the damn place and it's one of the most commonly referenced locations I've seen.
I agree. That's why I'm disappointed. Cheliax bore the Hell out of me halfway through CoT. While that place a nice idea on paper, it really isn't strong enough to support three APs. I'd gladly revist Varisia 5 times or more before we ever see Cheliax again.
But now we're getting two APs in Cheliax back to back. 12 months in that pretty one note country while there are other countries in Golarion that we've never visited yet but read more exciting than Cheliax ever was
I personally was already kind of tired of Cheliax even before Hell's Rebels was announced. So many of their APs involve the damn place and it's one of the most commonly referenced locations I've seen.Really? O.O
Of the currently released APs, only Council of Thieves actually takes place there. The argument could be made that Korvosa is Cheliax-like, I suppose. Meanwhile, Cheliax basically had a cameo appearance in Skull & Shackles. That's just about all there is involving Cheliax in the Adventure Paths.
Could you clue me in here, please? What am I missing?
Council of Thieves is there.
Throughout Skull and Shackles Cheliax is a big looming shadow over the events (they have plans to annex the Shackles).
They're constantly mentioned or referenced in setting books, and have one of, if not the, most detailed write-up of any country.
A LOT of archetypes and Prestige classes are directly connected in some way with the nation (Chelish Diva, Bellflower Tiller, Hellknight, Hamatulatsu Master) along with a Feat line (Hamatula Strike Feat chain...not all of which were published in Empire of Devils, mind you, it's still being supported), and a few magic items from various books.
I'm sure if I owned more Modules there'd be plenty that dealt with Cheliax in some way.
Paizo loves Cheliax. I like it too, but give some other nation a chance in the spotlight.
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I personally was already kind of tired of Cheliax even before Hell's Rebels was announced. So many of their APs involve the damn place and it's one of the most commonly referenced locations I've seen.Really? O.O
Of the currently released APs, only Council of Thieves actually takes place there. The argument could be made that Korvosa is Cheliax-like, I suppose. Meanwhile, Cheliax basically had a cameo appearance in Skull & Shackles. That's just about all there is involving Cheliax in the Adventure Paths.
Could you clue me in here, please? What am I missing?
Council of Thieves is there.
Throughout Skull and Shackles Cheliax is a big looming shadow over the events (they have plans to annex the Shackles).
They're constantly mentioned or referenced in setting books, and have one of, if not the, most detailed write-up of any country.
A LOT of archetypes and Prestige classes are directly connected in some way with the nation (Chelish Diva, Bellflower Tiller, Hellknight, Hamatulatsu Master) along with a Feat line (Hamatula Strike Feat chain...not all of which were published in Empire of Devils, mind you, it's still being supported), and a few magic items from various books.
I'm sure if I owned more Modules there'd be plenty that dealt with Cheliax in some way.
Paizo loves Cheliax. I like it too, but give some other nation a chance in the spotlight.
I'm glad to see it get a chance in the spotlight at all.
The problem with S&S is that, from the PCs' POV, the Thrune invasion is a blip. I don't think the PCs even know until halfway-or-so through Book 5, and the invasion is only the first third or so of Book 6.
I can't find this detailed write-up. The Inner Sea World Guide gives them the same four pages as everyone else gets. There's also a Player Companion. That's about it. They don't even have a Campaign Setting book...
They have a decent number of archetypes and feats, I suppose, although not that much more than various others. I can run some numbers on that tomorrow, if necessary.
The only Hamatula Strike-related feats I can find are in C:EoD; can you tell me where you found the others?
Of the Module line, only three (No Response From Deepmar, Tower of the Last Baron, and Treasure of Chimera Cove) are even almost in Cheliax. Two are in Korvosa. The Pact Stone Pyramid and Entombed with the Pharaohs each have secondary Chelaxian antagonists. That's out of forty-five modules surveyed.
As far as I can tell from a rough once-over, Cheliax is in line behind Varisia, Osirion, and the Worldwound in terms of support, with competition from the Shackles and Numeria (and possibly Razmiran and Andoran).
I like the idea of a year-long Cheliax rebellion plot. I'm super excited about Hell's Rebels, and while slightly less interested in Hell's Vengeance right now, I'm keeping an open mind until we know more (or know anything at all, for that matter).
Interesting to see how Paizo manage evil suitable for an audience of players who are 13+ years old
Preference for me would have been more daemonic,evil at its purest and cruel
Look forward to seeing what they bring
I feel like the kicking puppy comment is a joke.
No! You're crying!!
What did GALT!!!! Ever do to you
I'm actually quite pumped about the Hell APs, I do think they should've announced them together, it might've created more Buzz, but alas scheduling...
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When I first heard about this AP, my reaction was largely negative.
My group doesn't do evil in the usual sense - raping, murdering, burning orphanages to the ground, selling one's mother into servitude, kicking puppies. Absolutely will not fly with them doing evil against good.
Then I thought more on it - what if this AP has a Cheliax civil war for the backdrop? More of a evil fighting evil theme than evil fighting good. That is something I think my players could go for.
And I think that may be where this AP is heading. Hell's Rebels and this AP happening at the same time and Erik Mona's statement that House Thrune may be on the outs with Asmodeus definitely sounds like a setup for a Cheliax civil war breaking out.
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When I first heard about this AP, my reaction was largely negative.
My group doesn't do evil in the usual sense - raping, murdering, burning orphanages to the ground, selling one's mother into servitude, kicking puppies. Absolutely will not fly with them doing evil against good.
Then I thought more on it - what if this AP has a Cheliax civil war for the backdrop? More of a evil fighting evil theme than evil fighting good. That is something I think my players could go for.
And I think that may be where this AP is heading. Hell's Rebels and this AP happening at the same time and Erik Mona's statement that House Thrune may be on the outs with Asmodeus definitely sounds like a setup for a Cheliax civil war breaking out.
I can only hope you are right. A purely evil AP doesn't interest me in the slightest other than mining the AP for things to use another time.
The problem with evil adventures is many players have no idea how to be evil that isn't "kill maim rape destroy!" to a level that Freddy Krueger, Jason and Michael Myers would be like "Tone it down, dude."
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Paizo loves Cheliax. I like it too, but give some other nation a chance in the spotlight.
Exactly. Shouldn't an underutilized place like Varisia finally get a chance for its day in the sun?
"...underutilized place like Varisia..." Wow, my sarcasm meter just exploded;)
I am expecting an AP dealing with Distant Worlds concepts, having an Eoxian bonesage as a main villain trying to access the might conceal inside Apostae. The first module of this AP could be situated in the Sodden Lands and end in Eox, which second module could be a tribute to John Carpenter's 1997 Escape from New York and be titled Escape from the Halls of the Living.
If not, a Spaghetti Western with Weird Fantasy themed AP involving the nations of Alkenstar, Geb and Nex could be also interesting, with the PCs working as good aligned agents of Geb trying to stop a nexian experiment which could bring doom to Golarion's magic. It could even have a name which evokes the Western theme, something in the line of The Ballad of Next the Lost.
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I am expecting an AP dealing with Distant Worlds concepts, having an Eoxian bonesage as a main villain trying to access the might conceal inside Apostae. The first module of this AP could be situated in the Sodden Lands and end in Eox, which second module could be a tribute to John Carpenter's 1997 Escape from New York and be titled Escape from the Halls of the Living.
If not, a Spaghetti Western with Weird Fantasy themed AP involving the nations of Alkenstar, Geb and Nex could be also interesting, with the PCs working as good aligned agents of Geb trying to stop a nexian experiment which could bring doom to Golarion's magic. It could even have a name which evokes the Western theme, something in the line of The Ballad of Next the Lost.
That all sounds much better to me than 1 year of cheliax.
Don´t get me wrong - i like Cheliax and i´m sure it will be executed very good (not as good as in galt though ;-))but i would like more diversity too.
Also i think a Campaign in the Five King Mountains (King of all Dwarves) or in Kyonin is overdue. I can see that in the later case they don´t do it because the enemies would be demons and Treerazer as big bad and that is too similiar to Wrath of the Righteous but one year of devils is not better.
Also i would love a campaign set in Brevoy (maybe after Ultimate Intrigue is out) with political machinations between noble houses like Game of Thrones but maybe the paizo staff thinks this is thematically too close to Reign of Winter...
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so, time to guess what the next AP after this coming year of Hell will be. My guess: Hell's Indifference - A Cheliax based AP for neutral characters
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You realize that evil does not mean destruction and maiming.
If you capture escaped slaves and return them to their abusive master (or even a master that is not actively abusive but still uses the slaves and allows them not even the illusion of any sorts of freedom) then that is an evil act. If you shut down an Underground Railroad that sneaks escaped slaves into Andoran or Varisia then it's an evil act. If you insist on payment rather than do something out of the goodness of your heart, it could be considered borderline - imagine coming across that Underground Railroad and blackmailing the people involved into paying you not to reveal them... or having slaves pay you to smuggle them to safety.
Consider for a moment Reign of Winter. In RoW, you are going out of your way to free Baba Yaga from her daughter. While you do this to save Golarion, you are STILL letting loose an ancient evil that conquered the land of Irrisen over a thousand years ago and has enabled an evil and cruel feudal government backed by monsters to reign over that area. By freeing Baba Yaga, you are committing an evil act even if it is to do a greater Good. I could very easily see RoW run as an Evil Campaign with the PCs acting for their own self-interest - especially if they realize the White Witches are not going to let them hold any power of their own... or that Baba Yaga could provide them with a greater reward.
Hell's Vengeance is an Evil Campaign. It is not a Chaotic Evil campaign, however. As such, the path of evil will be far more subtle and that has me intrigued.
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I agree the fact that it's Lawful Evil means they should be able to play off the adventure and achieve a desired consumer base more effectively if your not constantly killing, pillaging, and raping all the time.
besides the subtle evil like Al Pacino in 1997's "Devil's Advocate" is alot of fun to play.
Totally agree with Tangent101.
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There will be more posts here from the Paizo staff once PaizoCon is over. The AP staff has not yet conducted their Adventure Path Q&A, which will have a lot more Infformation on Hell's Vengeance. Until then, a couple things:
1) Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance take place at the same time, during the same general rebellion throughout Cheliax. Hell's Vengeance has nothing whatsoever to do with Kintargo, and Hell's Vengeance does not in any way "undo" Hell's Rebels. We've had that concern for months and months, and have planned things accordingly to avoid the problems some people here are worried about.
2) The AP staff is very familiar with Way of the Wicked, and I am certain that they will be taking great pains to provide a very different experience. Although I referenced Asmodeus at the Preview Banquet, in fact the PCs in Hell's Vengeance do NOT work for Asmodeus. They work instead for House Thrune, which isn't the same thing. In fact, friction between House Thrune and Asmodeus is a significant plot point in Hell's Vengeance.
More soon.
So my initial reaction to this was "meh". But the more I think about it, the more I'm kinda interested in both adventure paths. The thing that turned me off the most is the idea that you're working for Asmodeus, but working for House Thrune proper? That would be interesting.
I'll judge when I learn more details. I know people felt the same about Iron Gods, which is my baby AP, so I can't "meh" at anything until I learn more.
...Of course this could also mean that, after a dual adventure path set in the Inner Sea Region, maybe afterwards we get an AP that's set outside the area? Whether that be another Golarion nation or another planet...
Also, Hell's Vengeance's theme song is this. Completely.