Shield spikes no longer stack with shield enchantment's bashing property?


Rules Questions

51 to 100 of 109 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Nefreet wrote:
Gwen Smith wrote:

So if I buy an item called a "spiked light shield" from the weapons table, can I make it bashing?

I didn't change its size or apply an effect: I just bought a single mundane item.

You bought a mundane light shield with mundane spikes.

You can make it Bashing, but as per the FAQ, it will overlap the effect of the mundane spikes.

Edit: you can't actually purchase a spiked light shield from the weapons table.

It has no price listed.

They have a price based on what the base shield is, but there IS indeed a spiked light shield with a straight price. Well, at least one that you can treat as one. The Madu.


And what happens when you put bashing on a klar?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Klar= light spiked shield when used to bash.

Which means it would be a light shield, +2 virtual sizes, for d6 dmg.

Better off just using the blade.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth is wrong. It does nothing. A klar attack is an armor spike attack not a shield bash. It's NOT a spiked shield.

"A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes".

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

A klar is also a d6 slashing weapon, which is NOT a light spiked shield.

Ergo, yes, a klar can deal damage two different ways...with the blade, which is not a spiked shield, and with the spiked shield.

==Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Unless I missed a FAQ, it is unclear if an attack with the klar blade is a shield bash or not.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

As shield bashes are quite defined in the rules, and are bludgeon or piercing attacks, and slashing attacks are NOT in the paradigm...

An attack with the klar blade cannot be a shield bash.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

A klar is also a d6 slashing weapon, which is NOT a light spiked shield.

Ergo, yes, a klar can deal damage two different ways...with the blade, which is not a spiked shield, and with the spiked shield.

==Aelryinth

I quotes EXACTLY what the PRD says it is. A shield with armor spikes. NOWHERE does it say it's a spiked shield or that it's damage is a shield bash.

Grand Lodge

With this update, it is not unheard of, that they will rule that Shield Spikes, are not an "increase in effective size effect".

FAQs, can call the need, for other FAQs. Crane Wing?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

A shield with armor spikes is a spiked shield by any other name.
Shields do damage when used to shield bash. If you're not bashing, you're not doing damage with a shield.

The d6 slashing damage of the klar comes from its blade and CANNOT be from a shield bash.

==Aelryinth


So, can a klar be enchanted as a blade, as a shield and as a shield as a weapon all at the same time?


Aelryinth wrote:

A shield with armor spikes is a spiked shield by any other name.

Shields do damage when used to shield bash. If you're not bashing, you're not doing damage with a shield.

The d6 slashing damage of the klar comes from its blade and CANNOT be from a shield bash.

==Aelryinth

A spiked shield has different rules than armor spikes so no, they aren't the same thing... Attacking with armor spikes is NOT the same as attacking with a shield spike. Nothing says that an armor spike attack counts as a shield bash like it does with a shield spike. To add to this, shield bash is it's own weapon that only shield spike adds to because of it's special rule. (see shield bash attacks under shield entry)

So a shield bash with a klar would HAVE to be without the blade OR the armor spikes. NOT every attack with a shield is a shield bash.

Melkiador: As far as I can tell it's three things. A shield, a blade attached and armor spikes. A don't see why all three couldn't be enchanted differently.

Sczarni

For reference, the Ultimate Equipment version of the Klar ("armor spikes") is most likely a typo, since both Varisia, Birthplace of Legends and The Inner Sea World Guide, where the Klar was first printed, list it as being a "spiked shield".

Inner Sea World Guide wrote:
The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile. An attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes. See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Varisia, Birthplace of Legends wrote:
The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon composed of a blade bound to the skull of a horned spirestalker gecko. This type of spiked shield is detailed in The Inner Sea World Guide. Its statistics are summarized on the following table.


Nefreet wrote:

For reference, the Ultimate Equipment version of the Klar ("armor spikes") is most likely a typo, since both Varisia, Birthplace of Legends and The Inner Sea World Guide, where the Klar was first printed, list it as being a "spiked shield".

Inner Sea World Guide wrote:
The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile. An attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes. See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Varisia, Birthplace of Legends wrote:
The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon composed of a blade bound to the skull of a horned spirestalker gecko. This type of spiked shield is detailed in The Inner Sea World Guide. Its statistics are summarized on the following table.

Hmmm... That may be true but until they fix it, it's the latest (and therefor 'correct') version. I'll admit it would make more sense that way.

Of course if you don't care it's RAW, like a home game, use the old version.

Silver Crusade

As far as whether a spiked shield and effective size changes stack I think will boil down to if you consider "as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger" to be a "size changing effect". The FAQ change covers only size changing effects. My logic says it is not. It is the way the spiked shield is designed. It is not a change. It is not an effect. Without reforging the shield, its not like its going to "change" back.


I took part in this same discussion shortly after the FAQ came out. While the PDT answered some questions with regard to Spiked Shield, they did not answer the specific question asked about bashing and spiked shields. As Nefreet says, they gave a general answer that was clearly aimed at spells.

Applying the general answer to a spiked shield is nonsensical for a variety of reason. I believe the fundamental problem is that when the spiked shield text entry was written, there was no concern over virtual or effective stacking. While I cannot say which was written first, either the shield spikes or bashing author of one would have been aware of the other and one of the two entries would have precluded the other if that were the intent.

There is no logical/IC reason for shield spikes not to work with any magic that increase damage using die increase language. As others have stated, a spiked shield is a weapon in its own right and certainly more sore than armor spikes which per the FAQ would benefit from any stacking. In addition, one entry in the NPC Codex lists a bashing spiked shield whose damage indicates the bashing property increases the spiked shield damage by two steps.

Like other FAQs which the PDT has had to fix, the PDT needs to come back and fix this:

This does not apply to spiked shields which are weapons in their own right.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

cjtSparhawk wrote:
It is not an effect.

Considering Pathfinder often uses "spells and effects" to cover all the bases, I'm not certain it isn't an effect.

N N 959 wrote:
This does not apply to spiked shields which are weapons in their own right.

If we get an answer, I think it is far more likely the answer will be:

This does indeed apply to spiked shields.
Why? The language used is precisely the language pattern they send would trigger it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Risner wrote:
cjtSparhawk wrote:
It is not an effect.

Considering Pathfinder often uses "spells and effects" to cover all the bases, I'm not certain it isn't an effect.

N N 959 wrote:
This does not apply to spiked shields which are weapons in their own right.

If we get an answer, I think it is far more likely the answer will be:

This does indeed apply to spiked shields.
Why? The language used is precisely the language pattern they send would trigger it.

Come on. We all know the reason that the FAQ will be ruled to apply to spiked shields is that martials can't have nice things. ;)

Somebody had t say it.


Only YOU can prevent forum fires.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

N N 959 wrote:

I took part in this same discussion shortly after the FAQ came out. While the PDT answered some questions with regard to Spiked Shield, they did not answer the specific question asked about bashing and spiked shields. As Nefreet says, they gave a general answer that was clearly aimed at spells.

Applying the general answer to a spiked shield is nonsensical for a variety of reason. I believe the fundamental problem is that when the spiked shield text entry was written, there was no concern over virtual or effective stacking. While I cannot say which was written first, either the shield spikes or bashing author of one would have been aware of the other and one of the two entries would have precluded the other if that were the intent.

There is no logical/IC reason for shield spikes not to work with any magic that increase damage using die increase language. As others have stated, a spiked shield is a weapon in its own right and certainly more sore than armor spikes which per the FAQ would benefit from any stacking. In addition, one entry in the NPC Codex lists a bashing spiked shield whose damage indicates the bashing property increases the spiked shield damage by two steps.

Like other FAQs which the PDT has had to fix, the PDT needs to come back and fix this:

This does not apply to spiked shields which are weapons in their own right.

Then there is no logical reason it wouldn't work for Improved Natural Attack, which does exactly the same thing non-magically.

But, they don't stack. And the reason is to keep damage numbers down.
---------------------------
Aaaaand, it's an obvious typo on the Klar in the PRD, because you can't put armor spikes on a shield, only on ARMOR. In case of inherent contradiction, go to the best explanation, which is 'ooops, meant shield spikes.'

Multiple places also call it a spiked light wooden/steel shield. It's a spiked shield, deal with it.

The Klar is all one item, and it's not a double weapon. If it was, it would say so.

You can enchant it as a weapon...this will affect the klar's blade and its use in a shield bash.
You can enchant it as a shield.
In short, you can treat it just like a shield with a pigsticker extending out of it.
It's not a double weapon, or it would say so, so you don't enchant it as a weapon twice.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

---------------------------

Aaaaand, it's an obvious typo on the Klar in the PRD, because you can't put armor spikes on a shield, only on ARMOR. In case of inherent contradiction, go to the best explanation, which is 'ooops, meant shield spikes.'

So it's your contention that rules can NEVER create an exception? You're going to be throwing out a large about of rules on that theory. I guess your going to have to tell the sorcerers in your game they really CAN'T ignore material components under 5gp...

It may be in error but until an FAQ/errata comes out it's RAW. If you feel it's wrong, house rule it but as this if the rules section house ruling isn't a viable answer.

Aelryinth wrote:
---------------------------Multiple places also call it a spiked light wooden/steel shield. It's a spiked shield, deal with it.

You could have it in a million, and the only one that matters is the last one. the most current version IS the RAW legal one. That's Pathfinder's rules. So Pathfinder is telling you that YOU are wrong.

Aelryinth wrote:
---------------------------The Klar is all one item, and it's not a double weapon. If it was, it would say so.

And? A double weapon means you can use it in two hands as more than weapon at once in TWF. How does that have anything to do with a weapon that can be used in different ways outside of TWFing?

Aelryinth wrote:

You can enchant it as a weapon...this will affect the klar's blade and its use in a shield bash.

You can enchant it as a shield.
In short, you can treat it just like a shield with a pigsticker extending out of it.
It's not a double weapon, or it would say so, so you don't enchant it as a weapon twice.

You have rules that the blade is a shield bash?

PRD: "Klar :The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes."

"Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack (see "spiked armor" in the Martial Weapons Table). The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right."

At the VERY least it's a shield with armor spikes on it. Those are two different weapons and can be enchanted differently. Now the weapon text gives stats for the weapon and it's never called it out as a shield bash nor does it match up with a bashes stats. So added together you have:

1) the klar as a weapon (blade)
2) the klar as a shield (shield bash)
3) the armor spikes on the klar.

For it to be the way you think it should be it need rewritten to change armor spikes to shield spike and call out it's attack as a shield bash. stab with a sword doesn't seem like a bash though...


Aelryinth wrote:
Then there is no logical reason it wouldn't work for Improved Natural Attack, which does exactly the same thing non-magically.

While I have not looked into INA, is not the same thing as a spiked shield. A spiked shield is a weapon. Both the klar and maddu reference it as their baseline damage. INA is not a weapon, it's an improvement on a weapon.

Quote:
And the reason is to keep damage numbers down.

Which would be wholly arbitrary and whimsical as stacking a spiked shield with one other spell is not bringing the game to its knees. Do you know how many spiked shield users I have encountered in PFS? Zero. I have never seen another character use it, much less break the game with it.

The problem is "shield spikes" has language that caused it to get caught up in the net of their bid to stop the stacking of spells. But a spiked shield is a specific weapon, not an effect. No more than a large sword is an effect on a medium sword. If the language for shield spikes was penned after this FAQ was coded, then I'd concede the intent.

Sczarni

N N 959 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
there is no logical reason it wouldn't work for Improved Natural Attack, which does exactly the same thing non-magically.
While I have not looked into INA, is not the same thing as a spiked shield.

Have you ignored the original FAQ request? It's been linked in this thread.

It's specifically about Shield Spikes and Improved Natural Attack.

I put them together in the same question, and that's the question that this FAQ answers.

The answer didn't divide the two into different categories. Both use identical language, and both should be handled in the exact same way.


Nefreet wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
there is no logical reason it wouldn't work for Improved Natural Attack, which does exactly the same thing non-magically.
While I have not looked into INA, is not the same thing as a spiked shield.

Have you ignored the original FAQ request? It's been linked in this thread.

It's specifically about Shield Spikes and Improved Natural Attack.

I put them together in the same question, and that's the question that this FAQ answers.

The answer didn't divide the two into different categories. Both use identical language, and both should be handled in the exact same way.

While your question did include them, the response did not. In fact they worded differently than you did. You asked about "What happens when a magical damage-increasing effect and a non-magical damage-increasing effect interact?" and that was NOT answered.

What they DID answer was "enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield" which related but not directly on point. It's an answer on two different types of magic effects, not so much one on magic and non-magic ones.

A spiked shield isn't under an effect that changed it's actual size and it's not under an effect that increases it's effective size. It's BUILT to do more damage.

The spiked shield entry should feature small and medium damages instead of how it is now. However, since it was created WAY before this FAQ it was done the way it is. If it make you feel better, think of us as wondering is the spiked shield is in need of an errata/FAQ in light of this FAQ as we don't believe that it should fall under it for the reason we've highlighted.

Sczarni

graystone wrote:
What they DID answer was "enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield" which related but not directly on point.

That's part of it, but you're leaving out the rest.

The meat of the FAQ response wrote:
effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one.

What do shield spikes do?

Increase a shield's effective size by 1.

What does Bashing do?

Increase a shield's effective size by 2.

Ergo, they don't stack. You go with the larger of the two.

Which is the question I asked in the original request.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Nefreet, I see what you are saying. But I am in the camp that thinks spiked shields suffer from poor wording and were not an original part of the intent. I could be wrong, but like others have said, it is no different than taking a large longsword and saying you can't stack enlarge person on top of it because the damage was originally calculated by taking a medium long sword and raising the damage die.

I would rule that they still stack. Just my two coppers.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

graystone wrote:
think of us as wondering is the spiked shield is in need of an errata/FAQ in light of this FAQ as we don't believe that it should fall under it for the reason we've highlighted.

If that is true, start a thread asking for that to happen.

There shouldn't be doubt as to whether or not the pattern "as if they were one size category larger" falls under the FAQ. Spiked Shields do not currently stack with Bashing. Ask whether or not they should is fine. But they do not now.


Nefreet wrote:


What do shield spikes do?

Increase a shield's effective size by 1.

This is where I disagree. The shield is improved to deal more damage over a normal shield. It's 'size' isn't changed in the same way as an enlarge or bashing. From my perspective, it's the same as you telling me a large shield can't have bashing because I increased it's damage 'size'.

You see it as being answered, fine. I don't and you pointing to the same info only shows those same facts and doesn't really add anything.

James Risner wrote:
graystone wrote:
think of us as wondering is the spiked shield is in need of an errata/FAQ in light of this FAQ as we don't believe that it should fall under it for the reason we've highlighted.

If that is true, start a thread asking for that to happen.

There shouldn't be doubt as to whether or not the pattern "as if they were one size category larger" falls under the FAQ. Spiked Shields do not currently stack with Bashing. Ask whether or not they should is fine. But they do not now.

How is it not relevant in a thread called "Shield spikes no longer stack with shield enchantment's bashing property?"

Secondly, an exception written into the current FAQ has the same effect as a new FAQ JUST about the spiked shield. SO an FAQ here should have the same effect as that different one. It's seems more likely that an FAQ will happen any time soon vs actually altering the wording in the book as an errata.


James Risner wrote:
graystone wrote:
think of us as wondering is the spiked shield is in need of an errata/FAQ in light of this FAQ as we don't believe that it should fall under it for the reason we've highlighted.

If that is true, start a thread asking for that to happen.

There shouldn't be doubt as to whether or not the pattern "as if they were one size category larger" falls under the FAQ. Spiked Shields do not currently stack with Bashing. Ask whether or not they should is fine. But they do not now.

I actually asked Mark to explicitly address the question of why would armor spikes benefit from Lead Blades, but not a shield spikes. He ignored the question. I asked him again. He ignored the question. He's answered plenty of other things that have been answered by FAQs.

There is no IC basis for saying a spiked shield can't be buffed, but armor spikes can. The wording is OOC...not IC.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Interesting, yet the question answers itself.

Since spiked shields provide a virtual size increase to the base weapon, and Armor Spikes don't have that language, it works on the one and not the other.

And an attack with the Klar's blade is not a bash, it's an attack with the klar's blade. You can bash or attack with the blade, it is your choice.

A bash is if you use the shield itself, and the only way you can attack with a shield is to Bash with it.

If you want to go with Armor Spikes, Graystone, feel free. You now have a normal shield, since Armor Spikes do NOT modify shield damage, and the point is moot, since there's nothing to stack. Armor Spikes don't even change a shield's damage to piercing!

So either you go with 'oops, meant shield spikes', which is plainly and obviously what is intended, or you simply have Armor Spikes on a shield that literally do nothing for it. You can't even modify them as weapons since that only works if they are attached to armor!
============
As far as my personal opinion goes...I'd have them stack. I don't see the harm in it, and I always thought it cool that a bashing large shield was actually a decent weapon.

But as far as the FAQ goes...they don't stack. I know James Jacobs, for one, didn't like the fact that a Bashing Large Shield was such a great offhand weapon.

==Aelryinth

Scarab Sages

Let's actually read the rules on these:

Shield Spikes wrote:

These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.

An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Bashing wrote:

A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.

Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull's strength; Price +1 bonus.

So with the current FAQ, Lets say I have a A Medium Spiked Shield with +3 Flaming Shield Spikes and the Bashing Shield Enchantment.

Since the Shield Spikes are enchanted in it's own right, what stats are used?

As the damage increase do not stack because of the unfortunate unnecessarily complicated description of shield spikes, the Shield does damage as the Bashing Enchantment, or 1d8. Is that damage Bludgeoning or Piercing? Does it function as +1 to hit or +3? Does the target take +1d6 Fire damage?

Sczarni

graystone wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

What do shield spikes do?

Increase a shield's effective size by 1.

This is where I disagree.

Aren't you the one that champions "RAW"? How can you argue the silliness of Armor Spikes on a Klar while simultaneously ignoring the description of Shield Spikes?

as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You have an error.

Shield Spikes are not enchanted of themselves. Shield Spikes modify the shield. They are NOT armor spikes, which ARE enchanted themselves.

Thus, you have a Large spiked shield, +3 flaming and +1 Bashing (+1 Min required). (minor note, there is no medium spiked shield, there's light or heavy).

Spiked Changes the damage to piercing. A shield bash with a heavy shield is normally d4. Spikes improve this to d6 and change it from Bludgeon to Pierce.

Bashing changes the d4 to d8, instead, not stacking with the spikes. It has no effect on damage type, so type is still piercing.

+3 flaming gets added on afterwards.

So you have a d8 20/x2 +3 Flaming Weapon if you choose to bash with it.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
Since spiked shields provide a virtual size increase to the base weapon, and Armor Spikes don't have that language, it works on the one and not the other.

it's not really a virtual or actual size change. It's a weapon design that does more damage and isn't an effect like the size increases the FAQ states.

Aelryinth wrote:
And an attack with the Klar's blade is not a bash, it's an attack with the klar's blade. You can bash or attack with the blade, it is your choice.

Those deal different damages though. You'd count them as all the same weapon?

Aelryinth wrote:
A bash is if you use the shield itself, and the only way you can attack with a shield is to Bash with it.

You last quote says differently, unless you ARE saying those are different weapons.

Aelryinth wrote:
If you want to go with Armor Spikes, Graystone, feel free. You now have a normal shield, since Armor Spikes do NOT modify shield damage, and the point is moot, since there's nothing to stack. Armor Spikes don't even change a shield's damage to piercing!

Want? That's what the RAW is. That is why I said the klar has three attacks. Blade, bash and armor spikes. And the armor spikes aren't listed as doing anything different so an attack with them does exactly what is states under it's entry.

Blade: 1d6 ×2 S
Bash: 1d3 ×2 B
Spikes: 1d6 ×2 P

Aelryinth wrote:
So either you go with 'oops, meant shield spikes', which is plainly and obviously what is intended, or you simply have Armor Spikes on a shield that literally do nothing for it. You can't even modify them as weapons since that only works if they are attached to armor!

It works BECAUSE it says it does. They are attached to shield, so they works, because it says so. A specific rule can and DOES overrule a general rule. How can you NOT understand this. AS I asked before, can sorcerers in your would use Eschew Materials because the book SAY you need to have the material components and you seem to think that one rule can't allow you to do something another rule disallows.

Aelryinth wrote:

As far as my personal opinion goes...I'd have them stack. I don't see the harm in it, and I always thought it cool that a bashing large shield was actually a decent weapon.

But as far as the FAQ goes...they don't stack. I know James Jacobs, for one, didn't like the fact that a Bashing Large Shield was such a great offhand weapon.

==Aelryinth

Cool to know. For myself, I don't understand why it would be treated the same as outside effects boosting the damage. It's pre-packaged that way. It's more of a logic thing than balance or anything else. It really doesn't make sense to me.

Now the dev's may shoot me down and I'd be fine with that. Quite a few FAQ's aren't to my liking. I'd at least like to know they've looked at the spiked shield itself for their ruling. It'd be even nicer is they'd say why they rules that way. Who knows, maybe they see something I haven't.

Nefreet wrote:
graystone wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

What do shield spikes do?

Increase a shield's effective size by 1.

This is where I disagree.

Aren't you the one that champions "RAW"? How can you argue the silliness of Armor Spikes on a Klar while simultaneously ignoring the description of Shield Spikes?

as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you

LOL Point out any inference of shield spikes in "Klar :The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes."

Secondly, you are complaining that I'M doing what you suggest doing with the klar. That the text is in error and should be updated.

Thirdly, I'd argue that the damage increase for the spiked shield isn't an effect as called out in the FAQ. I'll admit it's a fine hair to split but it's at least a RAW argument.

I'm suggesting that either the FAQ should have an exception for the spiked shield or the spiked shield should be worded to remove the effective size.

YOU are suggesting that I ignore the latest version of a weapon and instead use one an older one.

What's the difference? I think the raw is incorrect and should be changed to fix to match. Isn't that what you want for the klar?

Personally, I'm not sure the klar is in error. It IS a departure from previous versions but that's happened before (see scorpion whip) and it's functional as is. Until someone speaks up we aren't going to know.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Atar, you're being willfully obtuse.

Here's the text of armor spikes.
--------------------
Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
---------------

1) Armor Spikes don't modify a shield. Nowhere. If mounted on a shield, they don't allow you to do extra damage in a grapple, because that's a spiked armor rule. Shields are not spiked armor.
So what you have is the capability of doing d4 piercing damage with them as a light weapon.
They don't stack with Bashing, because Bashing is a shield enhancement, and Armor Spikes are not part of a shield. You have to enchant Armor Spikes on their own, and since they aren't part of the shield, if you Bash, any extra effects like Flaming won't be added in.

This is what you are arguing. A Klar is no longer a spiked shield. It's a shield with Armor Spikes on it. So, it's a got a d6 slashing blade, a d3 Shield Bash, or a d4 Piercing attack.

By their definition, Armor Spikes have to be enchanted separately.

There's no such language for the d6 slasher on the Klar. So you can add weapon enhancements to the shield and blade as one unit. The Armor SPikes, by definition, have to enhanced separately.

And I REALLY find it hard to understand why you are having difficulty following the klar's wielder from having the choice of a d6 slashing attack, or shield bashing with it, and now, with your interpretation, Armor Spiking the enemy.

Regardless,
As soon as you say Armor Spikes, there's no stacking questions. Armor Spikes don't modify a shield's damage at all, they are their own damage.

This is a specific rule that is nowhere contravened in the description of a klar. Anything you are reading into it is simply a non-event and house rule.

==Aelryinth

Scarab Sages

Are you sure shield spikes are not enchanted separately?

Quote:
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.


Imbicatus wrote:

Are you sure shield spikes are not enchanted separately?

Quote:
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Bingo.

A spiked shield is a weapon in "its own right." The text used to describe the damage is superfluous because the spike shield's damage is specifically listed. Nowhere in the game is there any evidence of intent to prevent a spiked shield from working with bashing or Lead Blades. What the PDT did is focus on things that use the "effective size" text to group up all the spells and keep them from stacking. They should have specifically excluded a spiked shield because nothing IC supports its inclusion.

I'm not going to be a slave to rules formalism when it results in stupidity. It's tantamount arguing that Shield Master removes all penalties from attacking with your shield. There's nothing more for me to add to this conversation.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Imbicatus wrote:

Are you sure shield spikes are not enchanted separately?

Quote:
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

YOu just quoted it.

A spiked shield can be made into a weapon. Unlike Armor Spikes, which are called out precisely as being enhanced.

You are enhancing the shield, and shields can be enhanced as martial weopons. SPikes modify the shield. Shields are listed as weapons on the weapon table, they can be enhanced as weapons.

So, yes, I'm sure.
------------

The language is the entire basis of the FAQ, and why it doesn't work.

You can argue semantics magical and non-magical, but it doesn't matter. As it stands, they do NOT stack. The language is the key, not the magic of it.

House rule as you like. I certainly will.

--Aelryinth

Sczarni

graystone wrote:
I'd argue that the damage increase for the spiked shield isn't an effect as called out in the FAQ.

How can you argue that?

They literally responded in the FAQ request thread that was asking specifically about Shield Spikes and Bashing.

How much more direct of a response can you ask for?


Aelryinth, I can help but look at your posts and say "you're being willfully obtuse". The klar says it counts as a light shield with armor spikes. Armor spikes are normally attached to armor but this gives an exception. (rules can do that) It's as simple as looking on the weapon chart for armor spikes and doing what is says

"Armor Spikes don't modify a shield": Never said it did. They however act as armor spikes as the weapon description. That gives damage and extra damage on a grapple. Also spiked armor is a d6 for medium.

Blade vs bash: It's not called out as a separate weapon and there are pro's and con's to both. Myself, I'd go with enchanting them differently but RAW most likely is enchanting both as once without the extra wording.

"And I REALLY find it hard to understand why you are having difficulty following the klar's wielder from having the choice of a d6 slashing attack, or shield bashing with it, and now, with your interpretation, Armor Spiking the enemy": I LITERALLY said you could and even listed the damages and attacks.
"Blade: 1d6 ×2 S
Bash: 1d3 ×2 B
Spikes: 1d6 ×2 P"

On another note, no this has no stacking issue as it isn't a shield with a shield spike on it. If it was, as Nefreet and you seem to suggest, it would.


Nefreet wrote:
graystone wrote:
I'd argue that the damage increase for the spiked shield isn't an effect as called out in the FAQ.

How can you argue that?

They literally responded in the FAQ request thread that was asking specifically about Shield Spikes and Bashing.

How much more direct of a response can you ask for?

They NEVER EVER mentioned it. I don't even know if it was you're particular thread that they specifically made the FAQ for. (they put the FAQ in all thread talking about it so the same FAQ often shows up in multiple thread)

What I do know is what was actually posted on the FAQ. No mention of shield spikes, bashing, strong jaw, INA or even your question of magic vs non-magic effects. For a reply to your exact questions it did a VERY poor job it was indeed a direct reply just to your post. Or, you know it could be a reply to the general question and not about the exceptions there should be in it.

I can't assume the FAQ was all about you Nefreet. "Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?" Note how this isn't your wording or quoting you. All I know is that they didn't address the spiked shield and I don't and can't know why unless they say. The FAQ wasn't "spiked shields don't stack with bashing" but a general FAQ.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

graystone wrote:

Aelryinth, I can help but look at your posts and say "you're being willfully obtuse". The klar says it counts as a light shield with armor spikes. Armor spikes are normally attached to armor but this gives an exception. (rules can do that) It's as simple as looking on the weapon chart for armor spikes and doing what is says

"Armor Spikes don't modify a shield": Never said it did. They however act as armor spikes as the weapon description. That gives damage and extra damage on a grapple. Also spiked armor is a d6 for medium.

Blade vs bash: It's not called out as a separate weapon and there are pro's and con's to both. Myself, I'd go with enchanting them differently but RAW most likely is enchanting both as once without the extra wording.

"And I REALLY find it hard to understand why you are having difficulty following the klar's wielder from having the choice of a d6 slashing attack, or shield bashing with it, and now, with your interpretation, Armor Spiking the enemy": I LITERALLY said you could and even listed the damages and attacks.
"Blade: 1d6 ×2 S
Bash: 1d3 ×2 B
Spikes: 1d6 ×2 P"

On another note, no this has no stacking issue as it isn't a shield with a shield spike on it. If it was, as Nefreet and you seem to suggest, it would.

ARMOR SPIKES ON A SHIELD ARE NOT SPIKED ARMOR.

There is no damage listing on any table for armor spikes on a shield. Only for use on ARMOR.

They are a light weapon if used on SPIKED ARMOR, doing d6. I was using the stats for a Spiked Gauntlet.

If they are mounted on armor, you can do damage in a grapple. They are not mounted on armor, they are mounted on a shield. They do nothing on a shield.

Since a shield is not armor, ARMOR SPIKES DO NO DAMAGE WHEN MOUNTED ON A SHIELD, due to lack of weapon entry on the tables! There are no rules for what Armor SPikes do when added to a shield, they are all contingent on being added to armor!

Gotta love RAW.

Please get back to me when you find an entry for an Armor-Spike Shield (not a spiked shield, and not spiked armor).

I was getting irritated because you kept calling the slashing blade a shield bash, which it patently is NOT. d6 slashing is listed nowhere in the shield bash rules, and the Klar does not call it out as an exception for the bashing rules.

I will also note that the cost of a Klar is extremely efficient, since adding Armor Spikes to any armor is +50 gp, and a Klar is merely 12 gp.

Actually, a Klar is cheaper then a light wooden shield with armor spikes, and does better damage. Whoever would bother using a wooden shield? Except for masterwork cost savings, of course. It's actually cheaper then a shortsword + Wooden shield. Eesh!

==Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
Quote:
Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
Quote:

Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?

As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).

Sczarni

Graystone, look for yourself.

That's the only FAQ request that was answered. It had over 100 hits. It's the only thread they posted a response to. And their response answers the question I posed:

The question I posed wrote:
Do damage dice increases (such as Shield Spikes & Bashing) stack together?
The answer that was given in that exact same thread wrote:
if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies.


Nefreet, I still don't agree with it. I see your point. I think the answer to your question is specifically what was given. But the problem with it, in my view and I think others, is that the question is in error. The answer never addresses that.

Many of us do not believe or agree with your assumption that Shield Spikes actually are a "as if size..." modifier. I know what it says. I know how you get to where you are. I can't say you are wrong.

An example of how I see the question in error would be, "Do all felines, (such as tigers and wolves) give birth to live young? Yes, all felines give birth to live young." The question is answered, but I am sure we both know, wolves are not felines.

It may be a stretch, but your examples may have been left out of the answer on purpose. And we may all be incorrect whereas you are correct.

In rules examples, the text doesn't matter so many times that it makes arguments claiming the text, especially RAW, is invalid, valid. It at least does this well enough to be presented as a strong argument when a large portion (at least 25%) disagree with the base reasoning.

As recently shown above, the text about penalties in Shield Master are so incorrect as to be completely unreasonable unless you make a rather large leap in logic.

I feel that vision and lighting are still boggled. The status of light in a square is only based on the viewer. What is dim light for a human MAY be normal light for an elf. Yet the Assassin version of HiPS works against both viewers in the same square, absolutely negating the elves benefit of doubling the range of a light source, which should make it harder to hide from an elf. The only way, RAW, that is possible is to explicitly, for no reason, ignore low-light vision. Yet there is no RAW anywhere that says that should be done. But most people think I am the one that is boggled on that one.

Stealth really doesn't work. And as I found out today, there are at least 3 versions of Crane Wing floating around.

That is how we, the players on this forum, can come to wildly different views on the rules of this game, and all think we are correct. In my opinion Pathfinder 1.5 is absolutely in order that addresses the overuse of "game terms" with multiple meanings, rules text with no meaning, and the hierarchy of rules well beyond "specific trumps general" as there is always contention as to which is specific and which is general.

As Aelryinth points out, we think one part of the rules is incorrect and ignore it, you think a different part is incorrect and ignore it. Amazing how that happens, isn't it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Nefreet wrote:
The question I posed wrote:
Do damage dice increases (such as Shield Spikes & Bashing) stack together?
The answer that was given in that exact same thread wrote:
if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies.

That answer could have only been more direct by saying Spiked Shield instead of one size and Bashing instead of two sizes.

I'm kinda amazed at this thread. I can't seem to understand why there is so much desire to reject the plain wording about Spiked Shield is a size adjustment and multiple size adjustments do not stack.

Scarab Sages

James Risner wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
The question I posed wrote:
Do damage dice increases (such as Shield Spikes & Bashing) stack together?
The answer that was given in that exact same thread wrote:
if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies.

That answer could have only been more direct by saying Spiked Shield instead of one size and Bashing instead of two sizes.

I'm kinda amazed at this thread. I can't seem to understand why there is so much desire to reject the plain wording about Spiked Shield is a size adjustment and multiple size adjustments do not stack.

The answer in that thread is referring to Improved Natural attack and Strong Jaw.

Scarab Sages

Also, we reject that spikes on a shield are an effect that increases it size. It does damage as if it were a larger size, but the same can be said of a club and a morningstar or a short sword and long sword.

The size increase wording is what is in error, because shield increases do not make a shield larger. They make it different kind of weapon.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I think by now we know WHY people want bashing and spiked shields to stack.

It's a 'different item', not a 'size increase'. Basically, it's a non-magical addition that upped the damage.

This is quite literally no different then an animal with Improved Natural Attack...a non-magical addition that ups the damage.

Unfortunately, BOTH use the 'effective size increase' language, instead of simply setting the damage to x. If they would have left the language completely out, and just said light spiked shields are d4 and large spiked shields are d6, we would not have a problem here.

They didn't, and so we do.

==Aelryinth

Sczarni

Komoda wrote:
we think one part of the rules is incorrect and ignore it, you think a different part is incorrect and ignore it. Amazing how that happens, isn't it.

Care to entertain me?

51 to 100 of 109 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Shield spikes no longer stack with shield enchantment's bashing property? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.