thejeff wrote: Also, as I said above, it's usually better to choose the interpretation that doesn't lead to game-breaking conclusions.
The wizard has 9th level spells, the game is already broken. Concluding that a teleportation circle can teleport creatures larger than medium isn't a game breaking conclusion.
While I agree choosing an option that doesn't break things is always better, allowing the circle to teleport huge creatures is no different than allowing the teleport spell to do so. Which it can.
Claxon wrote: thejeff wrote: Also, as I said above, it's usually better to choose the interpretation that doesn't lead to game-breaking conclusions.
The wizard has 9th level spells, the game is already broken. Concluding that a teleportation circle can teleport creatures larger than medium isn't a game breaking conclusion.
While I agree choosing an option that doesn't break things is always better, allowing the circle to teleport huge creatures is no different than allowing the teleport spell to do so. Which it can. It is different. One is an individual 'Per casting' spell the other is a permanent installation. They aren't the same thing.
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In a world where a Decantur of Endless Water is a thing that can easily be bought (which it can, according to the item availability rules in the CRB), the need for proximity to a water source for, say, a viable settlement is completely obviated. To say nothing of the fact that the decantur as described can easily be used as a source of power as well as water.
Once you start down that path, a practically endless series of socioeconomic changes quickly results in a the world that is, if not completely unrecognizable, certainly very unlike Golarion.
Again, it really is best not to look too closely at this sort of thing. :)
Claxon wrote: thejeff wrote: Also, as I said above, it's usually better to choose the interpretation that doesn't lead to game-breaking conclusions.
The wizard has 9th level spells, the game is already broken. Concluding that a teleportation circle can teleport creatures larger than medium isn't a game breaking conclusion.
While I agree choosing an option that doesn't break things is always better, allowing the circle to teleport huge creatures is no different than allowing the teleport spell to do so. Which it can. So this entire discussion would be the same if there was no Teleport circle and the economic debate was based on casters teleporting people?
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The premise presumes that the two cities linked by the teleport circles are the only places in the world worth going to and buying/selling stuff at.
In practice, you got a boat, you can go anywhere that boat can reasonably reach - as opposed to being stuck with just, say, Egorian and Absalom.
Incidentally, you could have an amusing exercise in trying to figure out which kingdoms on Golarion would actually be okay with teleport circle trade routes, BECAUSE of the inherent security threat presented.
I'd expect those things to get taxed/tolled like crazy, too. You want access to the magic overnight shipping, you better expect to pay through the nose for it.
(Under kingdom rules, a pair of permanent teleport circles costs about 25 BP, and would probably give the trade route benefit. Actually pretty reasonable to do. Finding the 17th level wizard to do it is another matter (unless he's part of your ruling council, anyways). Those guys aren't exactly common.
@ Bugleyman - if you look at the NPC wealth rules, you'll see the main reason those aren't everywhere - it's takes a 10th level NPC just to have enough money to possess a 9,000 gp decanter. Or about 4 5th level NPCs pooling their lifes' savings.
PCs are freaking RICH compared to most of the folks they share the world with, which kind of skews things. Normal folks don't have remotely as much money to throw at their problems as the PCs do.
Also, black market trade. Or technically legal horrible trade, like Katapesh's slave trade.
Though suddenly I'm picturing a couple teleport circles linking Irrisen's Childmarket to Katapesh's Fleshmarket.
The security to keep that safe would be insane.
LoneKnave wrote: You guys keep ignoring the volume of stuff a teleportation circle can carry.
It takes (or could take) a fleet of ships weeks or months to carry as much stuff a teleportation circle could carry in a day.
A teleportation circle doesn't replace 1 ship, it replaces all of them that go to the target destination.
Ships could be useful for short voyages where you make many stops along the way I guess, but teleportation circles can move an incredible amount of stuff incredibly fast.
But only that go to the target destination.
And not the ones coming back, unless you have two of them (and no cargo ship travels empty unless something is drastically wrong).
Between key locations, it is a large booster in trade efficiency. It is not, however, viable as a replacement for shipping on the whole.
And for the record, no modern-day container ship makes a single stop. And that's been true for a long time.
It also relies on the specific route having enough volume for spending 100,000 gold to be a viable prospect. For some routes, that will definitely be the case. For all routes? No.
So you split the difference with a few strategic Circles and a bunch of ships at each end anyway.
Saldiven wrote: kestral287 wrote:
The alternative, of course, is to...
But you fail to include the associated costs for having shipping.
You can't get away with having a single ship on a trade route, unless you're willing to tie up all your eggs in one basket. Ships have to be maintained every time they enter dock. Ships are lost and have to be replaced. Ships crews have to be paid constantly.
Shipping by sea is a hazard, and in a medieval setting, trade ships were lost or incredibly late all the time. Valid, but I also didn't include the associated costs of a teleportation circle. It's not like you can stick the circle in the ground and just start strolling through it. You have a great many logistical requirements on both ends of the hub-- things like security, labor to load/unload, securing enough Bags of Holding/Portable Holes, etc.
Which is more expensive is impossible to say, so I just left out both of them.
Saldiven wrote: Teleportation circles take out virtually all of the risk of trade. The initial star-up cost is far higher than a trade ship, but the ongoing costs are far less than 1% of the cost of operating a ship. Pretty much the only ongoing cost is security around the two circles to keep hostile people out of Dispel Magic range.
Additionally, transportation is instantaneous, meaning the commercial enterprise doesn't have to wait weeks or months before realizing the return on their trade investment.
It changes risks, it doesn't remove them.
You have all of your proverbial eggs in one Dispel-vulnerable basket, for example. Sure, the kraken won't get you. What about the warlord and his army you're tempting with a beautiful logistical situation?
You have fewer risks on any given run, but you're overall more vulnerable to targeted disruption. Losing a ship sucks, but you have nine more. Losing a Teleport Circle puts you out of business.
Return on Investment is also unlikely to be instantaneous unless you set up so many Teleport Circles that your investment is better measured in eight or nine figures than six, but it will be faster, aye. Which you need since your actual investment was so much higher.
Turin the Mad wrote: When you have the ability to cast a wish and create demiplanes, why bother with commerce? Money is a means to an end, funding eldritch experiments of all sorts, not the end of itself. Odds are pretty good that cheating Death/Pharasma of your soul is far, far higher on the priority list than something as mundane as ... commerce. To be fair, a Wizard can set up two Circles in a day, using two ninth-level and two fifth-level spells. Probably plus three more fifth-level spells for Teleport. Pretty minor concern for a 17th level Wizard.
As for why... spend a day to make six figures, fund your research for the next six months. Seems like a fair trade to me.
Now, of course, any Wizard who isn't an idiot is going to be demanding a cut of profits, not this piddly 100k. But using the book prices simplifies the comparison.
HowFortuitous wrote: The cost to make a teleportation circle permanent is 22,500. The cost to do the actual spell itself is 1,000. That makes the total cost 23,500, but we'll just bump it up to 25,000 because I like mentally satisfying numbers. Plus the cost of hiring the Wizard. Numbers were ran in the first few posts, it's just shy of a hundred grand per pair of circles.
There's precious little point in a Wizard setting these up on his own; he doesn't have the organization requisite to actually make such a thing function. At best he's a one-time hire. At worst he's a business partner, and while that means he's likely willing to provide the service for that 25,000 you know he'll be collecting a paycheck until the end of his (soon to be immortal) life, and that's going to cost a lot.
LoneKnave wrote: If you count the castle/whatever around the circle, you may as well count building ports for ships as part of the cost. Also, I actually kinda like the spike pit idea above (but again, putting a rock on it to block incoming traffic also works), and that sounds a lot cheaper than the adamantite cage. And same for land transport, to a lesser extent.
I also wonder at what distance do 200 ships become faster at transporting the same amount of goods a TP circle does. Like, packing up one brontosaurus (or *insert large weight limit monster here*) with bags of holding, ant haul etc. has a ludicrous weight limit. We'd need to determine how many rounds it can go in a day, compared to how far a ship can travel.
For example, if a 'saurus can do 20 ships worth of work in one day, then if the ships go 2 days, you'd need 40 ships to keep up with a circle; not counting that during that 1 day the 'saurus goes back and forth, while the ships are just going to the destination then take about the same amount of time to go back.
Thinking about it, I have a feeling the great competitor wouldn't be large ships, but small ships that carry stuff stuffed into bags of holding. Those may be cheaper, need less crew, and maybe can even make better time? I'm not up on shipping rules.
Maximum volume matters far less than actual demand.
For a world of Golarion's size and tech, 200 ships is a gross case of overkill on any one route. There are roughly 5,000 container ships operating across the entire world today, for a population that's a couple orders of magnitude larger than Golarion's and far more advanced (which in turn means that economies are far more specialized).
Calculating maximum possible load is an amusing thought exercise but not actually useful for anything, even judging "useful" strictly by the standards of this conversation.
As for the big ship/small ship thing, the most economical solution (assuming sufficient demand) is big ships loaded up with bags of holding. Small ships aren't significantly cheaper than big ones until you hit the really small ships.
Another thought: let's presume for a moment that the thing to be teleported has to fit in that 5' circle. That immediately leaves shipping as a viable option, because anything that won't fit in a portable hole isn't moving via Circle.
Without the Medium limitation it becomes "anything that won't fit on a brontosaurus' back".
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Claxon wrote: In general, the rules are that there aren't random NPCs of greater than 13th level. While there are higher level characters, they should be rare and important. There wont be sufficient number of them to do this sort of thing, and they would know that doing such would disrupt a large portion of the worldwide economy. Or if you want less abstract reasons, doing this kind of work would put them in public view for whomever they've ticked off the most. There are reasons most high level wizards choose a secluded lifestyle, and interact with the world through disposable minions.
Wooak knows that if some Wizard was to take a couple of industries out of business singlehandedly in two cities with the casting of a couple spells, the lumber guild, the shipwright guild, and the teamster guild (not to forgot the tailor guild for sails, the people that make rope, and other minor players in the ship industry) would form some angry mob and cause some high end economic damage and Wooak would join in the fun.
Wooak also knows egg addled mammals are often not trusting of each other. The ability to move a huge amount of trade goods can also be applied to armies. Wooak seriously doubts the fine people of Almas would trust a portal between their city and say Oppara or Westcrown or even Sothis. Even if teleportation circles existed within the same nation, such a system could be used to take over said nation rather quickly. Since the ability to create a teleportation circle network isn't that far off from the ability to create a rogue circle and link it into the system for your own malevolent reasons. As such Wooak believes that ships would still continue to exist for that reason alone.
thejeff wrote: Claxon wrote: thejeff wrote: Also, as I said above, it's usually better to choose the interpretation that doesn't lead to game-breaking conclusions.
The wizard has 9th level spells, the game is already broken. Concluding that a teleportation circle can teleport creatures larger than medium isn't a game breaking conclusion.
While I agree choosing an option that doesn't break things is always better, allowing the circle to teleport huge creatures is no different than allowing the teleport spell to do so. Which it can. So this entire discussion would be the same if there was no Teleport circle and the economic debate was based on casters teleporting people?
Yes, except for the ease of access the principle is the same. And the ease of access is only better because Teleport Circle can be made permanent.
You could have the discussion be "Why don't casters just play merchant?" since they could magical teleport good around the world all day and turn a big profit by buying things were they were cheap and selling them some place else. Or just being paid to move things from one location to another.
RDM42 wrote: It is different. One is an individual 'Per casting' spell the other is a permanent installation. They aren't the same thing. So? What difference does that make with regard to size? Teleport Circle functions as greater teleport (with some caveats) and greater teleport functions like teleport (with some caveats).
LazarX wrote: Claxon wrote: In general, the rules are that there aren't random NPCs of greater than 13th level. While there are higher level characters, they should be rare and important. There wont be sufficient number of them to do this sort of thing, and they would know that doing such would disrupt a large portion of the worldwide economy. Or if you want less abstract reasons, doing this kind of work would put them in public view for whomever they've ticked off the most. There are reasons most high level wizards choose a secluded lifestyle, and interact with the world through disposable minions. Yeah, Author's fiat.
Claxon wrote: thejeff wrote: Claxon wrote: thejeff wrote: Also, as I said above, it's usually better to choose the interpretation that doesn't lead to game-breaking conclusions.
The wizard has 9th level spells, the game is already broken. Concluding that a teleportation circle can teleport creatures larger than medium isn't a game breaking conclusion.
While I agree choosing an option that doesn't break things is always better, allowing the circle to teleport huge creatures is no different than allowing the teleport spell to do so. Which it can. So this entire discussion would be the same if there was no Teleport circle and the economic debate was based on casters teleporting people?
Yes, except for the ease of access the principle is the same. And the ease of access is only better because Teleport Circle can be made permanent.
You could have the discussion be "Why don't casters just play merchant?" since they could magical teleport good around the world all day and turn a big profit by buying things were they were cheap and selling them some place else. Or just being paid to move things from one location to another.
RDM42 wrote: It is different. One is an individual 'Per casting' spell the other is a permanent installation. They aren't the same thing. So? What difference does that make with regard to size? Teleport Circle functions as greater teleport (with some caveats) and greater teleport functions like teleport (with some caveats). They are different spells.
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LoneKnave wrote: LazarX wrote: Claxon wrote: In general, the rules are that there aren't random NPCs of greater than 13th level. While there are higher level characters, they should be rare and important. There wont be sufficient number of them to do this sort of thing, and they would know that doing such would disrupt a large portion of the worldwide economy. Or if you want less abstract reasons, doing this kind of work would put them in public view for whomever they've ticked off the most. There are reasons most high level wizards choose a secluded lifestyle, and interact with the world through disposable minions. Yeah, Author's fiat. That's how most storys work. Having the world work the way a gamer would design it would still be Author's Fiat. If you're looking for real world economic simulation, you're playing the wrong game.
Zhangar wrote: The premise presumes that the two cities linked by the teleport circles are the only places in the world worth going to and buying/selling stuff at.
In practice, you got a boat, you can go anywhere that boat can reasonably reach - as opposed to being stuck with just, say, Egorian and Absalom.
Yeah, this. Here's a post I wrote on the same topic, different thread, a while ago:
Coriat wrote: There are a number of trade goods that are simply more amenable to shipping than to teleportation. Timber, for example.
Any shipping business in which the journey represents part of the business rather than merely an obstacle is better handled by a transportation method that does not skip said journey. Think coastal trading vessels, or a Mississippi steamboat, making dozens of small stops in between Vicksburg and New Orleans and embarking and disembarking passengers and goods at each one. Teleportation can't do business en route, ships can. (As I wrote in that other thread: teleportation links points, trade links regions).
Even with pirates, a ship's cargo is still much harder to steal than a bag of holding carried by some guy.
In Pathfinder, ships are cheaper in terms of initial capital investment than magical transportation is.
Some points to set against the (very real) advantages teleportation does have to offer.
Deadmanwalking wrote: LoneKnave wrote: You guys keep ignoring the volume of stuff a teleportation circle can carry.
It takes (or could take) a fleet of ships weeks or months to carry as much stuff a teleportation circle could carry in a day.
A teleportation circle doesn't replace 1 ship, it replaces all of them that go to the target destination.
Sure does. Now...how are you getting the money to build one? And to protect it from people who want to sabotage it. And where are you finding a 17th level Wizard to build a pair of them for you?
It's not that this tactic is impossible, it's that it has too high a start up cost, and too rare a necessary prerequisite (a 17th level Wizard) to be remotely common.
LoneKnave wrote: Ships could be useful for short voyages where you make many stops along the way I guess, but teleportation circles can move an incredible amount of stuff incredibly fast. Again, sure, but how are you gonna convince a guy who can create his own demiplane and casually make thousands of gp a day (or more) that what he really wants is to get into mercantile ventures with you? By being one of the most wealthy and powerful nations or trade organisations on the planet. East India Companies.
East India Companies had ships that with ONE small convoy arrival would make more than their country in a YEAR. This was a two year trip Investment.
Now make it happen DAILY. I am a big fan of ships and the age of sail, but sorry, in a world of teleport Magic large shipping lines amd warships are exactly redundant.
Fishing and for poor People, but the profit is so high and with so much flux that it is affordable to more common folk. See the worlds shipping lines now, sending something from China to Your doorstep is a few dollars.
All this in regard to long shipping lines. A similar comparison can be made between planes and ships. It ALWAYS Depends on what you carry and how much you can sell it at destination for.
zylphryx wrote: so from this thread so far, we have the following costs:
- Teleportation circle 50k/pair
- Security wages at each location ~100gp/month for personnel (you will want a decent sized force at either end ... this assumes warriors not spellcasters)
- Security initial costs (equipment, barracks, adamantine cage at either end large enough to encompass a 10'x10'x10' area, etc.) ~750k (probably more from the adamantine costs)
- Vehicles to ship from your shipment depot to all points (as unlike traditional shipping you are going only from one point to one other point, not any number of ports) ??? ... but will need a good mix of land and sea vehicles to haul goods from point of delivery to final destination ... estimate 100 ships and 1000 wagons ... figure of 1.5M for the ships, wagons, horses ...
- Wages for transport crew and animal upkeep 30k in stable fees, 12k in monthly wages for teamsters, 18k in monthly wages for ships crews
Teleportation Circle total cost 2.4M+ gp to set up, +25k every time a circle gets dispelled, +10k to replace a ship, and 60k+/month in wages and upkeep.
- Traditional shipping 200 ships ... 2M
- Wages for transport crew 36k in monthly wages for ships crew
Traditional shipping total cost 2M+ gp to set up, +10k to replace a ship, and 36k+/month in wages and upkeep.
Traditional shipping is still cheaper, not only on the initial cost for a 200 ship fleet, but also on monthly expenses. Additionally, since traditional shipping is delivery from port A to port B, not static point A to static point B, it does not need to worry about secondary shipping infrastructure.
And let us not forget the trade wars that would erupt between 17th level 30+Int wizards would be far more devastating to the surrounding areas than a conflict between rival merchants...
Great sum up on costs, though without knowledge of profit per day/trip/month these numbers cannot be compared.
Luckily RPGs dont have economically minded wizards or indeed the world would just be barren wastelands or one big monopoly joke.
Errant Mercenary wrote: Deadmanwalking wrote: LoneKnave wrote: You guys keep ignoring the volume of stuff a teleportation circle can carry.
It takes (or could take) a fleet of ships weeks or months to carry as much stuff a teleportation circle could carry in a day.
A teleportation circle doesn't replace 1 ship, it replaces all of them that go to the target destination.
Sure does. Now...how are you getting the money to build one? And to protect it from people who want to sabotage it. And where are you finding a 17th level Wizard to build a pair of them for you?
It's not that this tactic is impossible, it's that it has too high a start up cost, and too rare a necessary prerequisite (a 17th level Wizard) to be remotely common.
LoneKnave wrote: Ships could be useful for short voyages where you make many stops along the way I guess, but teleportation circles can move an incredible amount of stuff incredibly fast. Again, sure, but how are you gonna convince a guy who can create his own demiplane and casually make thousands of gp a day (or more) that what he really wants is to get into mercantile ventures with you? By being one of the most wealthy and powerful nations or trade organisations on the planet. East India Companies.
East India Companies had ships that with ONE small convoy arrival would make more than their country in a YEAR. This was a two year trip Investment.
Now make it happen DAILY. I am a big fan of ships and the age of sail, but sorry, in a world of teleport Magic large shipping lines amd warships are exactly redundant.
Fishing and for poor People, but the profit is so high and with so much flux that it is affordable to more common folk. See the worlds shipping lines now, sending something from China to Your doorstep is a few dollars.
All this in regard to long shipping lines. A similar comparison can be made between planes and ships. It ALWAYS Depends on what you carry and how much you can sell it at destination for. Since this is a rules discussion, what are the rules for profit from such a merchant voyage? Or a teleport circle for that matter.
The only bit I've seen that gives any benefit at all is the bit about Trade routes in the kingdom building rules and I'm not familiar enough with those to know if it being a circle or a boat makes enough difference to matter.
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Errant Mercenary wrote: Luckily RPGs dont have economically minded wizards or indeed the world would just be barren wastelands or one big monopoly joke. Actually the actions of wizards DO tend to leave barren wastelands for other reasons. :)
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There's just a lot of bad analysis going on here.
ElterEgo, quoting LoneKnave:
Quote:
Quote:
You guys keep ignoring the volume of stuff a teleportation circle can carry.
It takes (or could take) a fleet of ships weeks or months to carry as much stuff a teleportation circle could carry in a day.
A teleportation circle doesn't replace 1 ship, it replaces all of them that go to the target destination.
Ships could be useful for short voyages where you make many stops along the way I guess, but teleportation circles can move an incredible amount of stuff incredibly fast.
You are absolutely correct, IF you are shipping a whole bunch of stuff from one location to just one other location very often. However, that isn't what usually happens with trade routes. Trade ships at that approx. level of tech would sail down the coast stopping and trading at each location.
They stop at each location BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO, to get food, fresh water, etc. They do trading while they are there because why not?
If they could go 1000km quicker than they currently go 1 km, you can bet your boots that trading and traveling patterns **would also look different**. The world would simply be different. There's no need to stop at least every 3 days, so highly profitable trade goes quickly between large centers. This in turn changes the economic opportunities available near those centers, concentrating population.
"Trade ships at that approximate tech level" AREN'T at that approximate tech level. Magic is a tech all its own.
This thinking is unbelievably bizarre. Permit me to paraphrase:
Quote: teleportation wouldn't work that way because in the real world shipping patterns don't conform to teleportation-friendly patterns. Roll me in dough and call me a biscuit! Real world trading patterns aren't like the trading patterns we would expect in a world of multiple teleportation circles? You don't say! How wise! How insightful!
Sigh.
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As for security... really? You think this is more vulnerable than a ship that sinks in a storm? Where do you think you're going to put this teleportation circle?
You do realize that more than a few monarchs can be taken out with a single fireball - much less 20 fireball-attempts. EVERY SETTLEMENT IN THE WORLD ALREADY HAS THIS SECURITY PROBLEM.
The good thing is that you can place more than one target within the same security net, protecting your monarch and your teleportation circles with the same funds, the same security resources, and the same people.
Also...
...trade is good for **everyone**. The more things cycle through different communities/places/markets the more people make money. Every market in the loop makes more money. If you are a nation, you don't want your neighboring nations' trade routes disrupted unless and until you actively go to war and need to deny a specific resource. The threat to these circles is overstated by those who think it would be frequently targeted, and the resources needed to protect them are overstated by those who fail to perceive that any wealthy community will have multiple attractive and vulnerable targets within its borders already.
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My takeaway? Ships of some kind still exist, though metal ships might be much more available than one would assume. The primary purposes of such ships, however, are not transport of goods between markets. No, one would primarily have resource extraction ships (fishing boats, etc.), escorts (to protect the fishing boats, etc.), troop carriers (to engage in offensive military operations), and war ships (to defend against troop carriers and also against foreign war ships).
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More later if I have time.
LazarX wrote: Errant Mercenary wrote: Luckily RPGs dont have economically minded wizards or indeed the world would just be barren wastelands or one big monopoly joke. Actually the actions of wizards DO tend to leave barren wastelands for other reasons. :) Hey, it stimulates economy! You know how much profit can recultivation of post-magic warfare business bring?!
Okay, going by my population demographics (which are based rather directly on the settlement rules), we're talking maybe 1 in 100,000 people being 17th level in Golarion (or other settings using the settlement rules as written).
Now...how many of those are Wizards? Let's say 1 in 10. It's probably less than that, but hey, for simplicity. So, literally 1 in one million people (or less) can do this.
Now, let's assume Golarion has half a billion people, again, that's probably too high, but we'll go with it. That means that there are 500 people in the world who could do this. A very small number worldwide, of which only a fraction are in the Inner Sea region.
So let's examine who there is to do this in the Inner Sea Region:
Nobody. At least, nobody listed in official resources.
In this somewhat outdated post, I look for 15th level or higher NPCs in the Inner Sea who aren't Evil. Y'know what there aren't any of on that list? Wizards high enough level to pull this trick.
There are certainly Wizards on the list (the Elven queen is a 15th level Wizard, for example), but none are of sufficient level. And there are certainly Wizards of sufficient level (Razimir, a powerful Drow, the Runelords, a Lich or three)...but there are no non-Evil Wizards of sufficient level listed that I've been able to find.
Now, do non-Evil Wizards of sufficient level exist? Almost certainly. Are they common? No. For whatever reason, most Wizards high enough level to do this in the Inner Sea region are Evil. Is it any wonder people don't trust a Wizard sufficiently to make all their trade depend on him? And even if they did, most of the Evil Wizards I listed wouldn't be interested anyway, they have other priorities than mere money.
You know what the best part of a shipping by boat/cart/vehicle is? You aren't one DC 20 Sleight of Hand skill check away from losing your entire shipment. The opposed Perception check is only to notice you got robbed, if they make the DC 20 check they succeed on the stealing.
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