So I have two players who have had a falling out


Gamer Life General Discussion

1 to 50 of 275 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Silver Crusade

So one of my players, I'll call him Player A, has hit a moment in his life where he has moved beyond believing that he can save or help other people. He is focused on getting his act together, centering his life on himself and becoming "a respectable person with a future." He is cutting people who are "freaks" or refuse to take responsibility for their problems out of his life. Over the course of a few weeks he has gone from Social Justice Warrior to happily abandoning people around him in order to "unlock" his future. He is tolerant of people who don't have their crap together, but he isn't going to help them.

There is also a trans person, I'll call her Player T, in the group that has been ousted by Player A. Player T has been coming out as trans for the past year, and Player A has been supportive of her. However, Player A has made it quite clear to Player T that her problems are ~her~ problems, not his. It sounds like their friendship is dissolving, however it could implode into a nova as Player A has determined that the plight of trans people is their problem, and that he simply does not care in any way shape for form about them. From his perspective if they improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in.

So, what should I do here? Two former friends, one who used to be a white knight wanting to rise everyone up together and the other who was a close friend of this person, and now they have a concerted divide between them.

I am considering allowing it to play out just to see what happens.

Grand Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Tell them to work out their in game conduct, or you'll eject them both.

Then one of two things will most likely happen. They'll work out their in-game conduct even if the out game friendship dissolves, or you'll wind up booting one or both of them.


Uh... how is this Trans vs Not Trans?

This sounds like Person vs Person, Person T's gender stuff doesn't seem directly related at all. [Granted gender stuff may be the content of those 'problems' but he doesn't seem to have issue with the gender itself, just the problems.]


11 people marked this as a favorite.

Is Player T doing anything at all here? It sounds like the problem is entirely Player A. Also he's an a%~#@$@.

Silver Crusade

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Uh... how is this Trans vs Not Trans?

Person T emphasizes her Transgenderism all the time, uses the group, most notably and formerly Person A, as her outlet for her frustrations. The trans issue is actually one of the reasons why the two are deteriorating.

She will complain about trans stuff, and he will retort with a remark suggesting that this isn't the time or the place to be talking about her issues.
This just makes her angry. She actually called him "cis scum" last game after a particularly cold exchange between the two.


So . . . What's the question exactly? Is person A wanting to leave the game because of Person T? If so then let him. Is person A wanting person T to leave the game because person A doesn't want to be around them? If so then kick person A out of the game.

It honestly sounds like Person A has some pretty serious personal issues that they are projecting on anything and everything around them so as to avoid dealing with the real reason why they are unhappy. Bottom line is that Person A does not sound like a team player, and being a team player is a pretty important part of TEAMWORK GAMES like Pathfinder.

Paizo and their world (Golarian) are very pro LGTB(forgot the rest of the acronym). If Player A is not comfortable playing alongside a Transperson, then Player A probably should not be playing Pathfinder or any of Paizo's other products.


20 people marked this as a favorite.

So this is Player A going "Your problems are your problems, not mine" and Player T going "F~!! you for not wanting to carry my burdens for me"?

Sounds like ejecting Player T for being a troublemaker solves that problem pretty damn quick.

This is only tangentially related to trans issues at best. This is one player finally growing up and realizing it's unhealthy for him (and arrogant of him) to try and solve everyone else' problems for them and the other player thinking they're entitled to someone else trying to solve their own personal problems for them.

Silver Crusade Contributor

LGBTQ. :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm with Rynjin. Player T is making waves with the group when there needn't be any. Player A is being a bit of an ass, but he's not the one initiating conflict here.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

Whatever you do, don't "allow it to play out just to see what happens". Do not allow your players to continue their feuds during the game. If there are members of your group that want to keep supporting Player T (i.e. people that want to be friends with her), try to set aside some time before the game starts, or encourage them to work something out on their own time.

It sounds like Player T has come to regard this gaming circle as a circle of close friends, and if she's overestimating the closeness people want, she needs to make some adjustments.

I'm wondering how much of a dick Player A has been about this. Your post makes it sound like he was pretty confrontational about this life decision. How does he behave when Player T starts to vent?

Quote:
if they improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in.

Also, this is really weird and kind of creepy.

Silver Crusade

ElSilverWind wrote:

So . . . What's the question exactly? Is person A wanting to leave the game because of Person T? If so then let him. Is person A wanting person T to leave the game because person A doesn't want to be around them? If so then kick person A out of the game.

It honestly sounds like Person A has some pretty serious personal issues that they are projecting on anything and everything around them so as to avoid dealing with the real reason why they are unhappy. Bottom line is that Person A does not sound like a team player, and being a team player is a pretty important part of TEAMWORK GAMES like Pathfinder.

Paizo and their world (Golarian) are very pro LGTB(forgot the rest of the acronym). If Player A is not comfortable playing alongside a Transperson, then Player A probably should not be playing Pathfinder or any of Paizo's other products.

When I talked to Person A he made it clear that he isn't annoyed with transpeople, but instead he is annoyed with people (in general) who make excuses for why things are not going well for them. From what I gathered, he is just tired of listening to people who don't have their acts together complain about and invent reasons why they can't get their acts together.


9 people marked this as a favorite.

Looks like they both need to get their act together to be honest.

Person A: If you don't want to bother with other people anymore, then good for you... but don't be an a@$+#!& about it.

Person T: Cis-Scum? Really? Really? Some allies get burned out from being a part of a movement and need time to recharge. Respect that.

Both people: Keep it away from the table for god's sake. Fantasy RPGs were made to have fun, not bring the real world into things. Have fun, be friends, if there are personal things, don't let them get in the way of the game and story being told.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have to say, I feel like this forum would be cut in half if a sticky was put at the top linking would-be threadposters to Dear Abby's website.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The game time is not the place for anyone to constantly air out their personal problems. This is where "A" has the right of it, and it seems the "T" wants everyone to know of her issues due to her gender.

Maybe asking "T" to leave the personal problems for other times. Everyone is there to play the game, not council her.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Why does player A believe that helping others and having your act together are mutually exclusive? What constitutes a "freak?" I think that's a bit narrow minded, and to be blunt, a rationalization for being selfish. Sure, he's not obligated to help solve player "T"s problems, but he doesn't have to be a jerk about it.

"Growing up" and "maturing" doesn't mean one has to become self-serving, ruthless and uncaring. And those traits simply do not make a person "respectable with a future." As for "T", the person has come out and identified; so be strong about it. Sounds like they both have a lot of growing to do.

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Whatever you do, don't "allow it to play out just to see what happens". Do not allow your players to continue their feuds during the game. If there are members of your group that want to keep supporting Player T (i.e. people that want to be friends with her), try to set aside some time before the game starts, or encourage them to work something out on their own time.

It sounds like Player T has come to regard this gaming circle as a circle of close friends, and if she's overestimating the closeness people want, she needs to make some adjustments.

I'm wondering how much of a dick Player A has been about this. Your post makes it sound like he was pretty confrontational about this life decision. How does he behave when Player T starts to vent?

Quote:
if they improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in.
Also, this is really weird and kind of creepy.

Keep in mind that the respondents are showing how THEY feel about trans issues. For quite awhile trans folk like my spouse have had problems getting the rest of the LGBT community to recognise them as well, being almost as problematic as acceptance by "straights" or "cis" as the new term being used. Player A has taken the position that if the problem is ignored enough, it doesn't exist, in an additional decision to be a self-absorbed prick. It's an understandably hard stance on Player T since one of the definitions of friendship is people who have each other's back when they need support.

This is not a venue for armchair lessons on how to handle social interaction. Any advice, including the ones I've given in my earlier post should be taken with a degree of salt, and with an understanding that we all do have to live together and being hard-assed selfish, is going to bite back on you some day.


Gwaithador wrote:
"Growing up" and "maturing" doesn't mean one has to become self-serving, ruthless and uncaring. And those traits simply do not make a person "respectable with a future." As for "T", the person has come out and identified; so be strong about it. Sounds like they both have a lot of growing to do.

Most of the most well respected, most conventionally-successful people in this world are self-serving, ruthless and uncaring to the core [though they may or may not put a compassionate front out for display to the public.]


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
LGBTQ. :)

Thank you.

Okay now that we know a bit more. It sounds like this isn't really so much a Trans vs. Non-Trans issue. Player A is tired of listening to Player T's problems, and Player T is upset a person they trusted is shutting them out and is lashing out because of it. I still stand by player A being at fault, but would reprimand Player for her use of offensive language. Insulting other player is never allowed.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I see a lot of refereeing about who's right (nobody, naturally), and very little advice.

Time to bust out that great old chestnut, "talk to the players". Ask them if their friendship or lack thereof is going to (continue to) be a problem for the game, and if so, how they intend to remedy it.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Is person A being insulting or just blasé? Did they use the term "freaks" or is that your paraphrasing? You can't make someone care, but you can certainly let them know if they're being rude or insensitive. Sometimes people drift apart, sadly, but you can't make them be the person you want them to be. If you just sit on the sidelines and say, "not my problem, deal with it amongst yourselves" your entire group will probably fall apart. Like it or not, fair or not, true or not, there is the perception that the GM is supposed to be a fair arbiter of disputes. You don't have to pick sides but you do have to make some sort of statement. That statement might be that they have to take care of it between themselves somewhere else, but it absolutely cannot be that they have to take care of it at the table, in front of everyone while you just sit there silently. Then they both get defensive, feeling judged and backed into a corner, and everything will fall apart. I recommend having a private discussion with one, then the other, give yourself a day or two to think if you have to and try to come up with a solution.

I am also curious as to what exactly you meant by the word "ousted". If A thought T was being pushy and talking too much, it's not necessarily a case of A being a jerk (they may just be tired). Many people do not want to talk about religion or politics or reproductive rights or [insert hotly debated topic here] and we really don't have enough information here to reach any conclusions about relative guilt in this instance, even though it doesn't look good. I wish you luck in your conversations with them, regardless.

EDIT: Woah, while I was typing, a bunch of posts went up. Looks like some have posted some of what I said and more information from Osric pertaining to specific barbs thrown around. If words like "freak" and "scum" are being thrown around, there definitely needs to be a time-out on both sides, but I'm not sure this situation can be salvaged. =[


Pull them both aside and slap them with a Gauntlet of Social Justice Armistice.

First problem is this: T really shouldn't be bringing that drama to the session and expecting y'all's table to be her support group --- unless y'all's table is actually cool with that.

Second problem is this: just from the way you describe them, it seems like both of them have a bit of toxicity in their attitude, and it'd be a shame if the rest of the table fell into politics over it.

The conclusion is to pull them aside - apart and/or together - and let your position be known, how the drama is not acceptable at the table. In short: +1 to LazarX's suggestion.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ElSilverWind wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
LGBTQ. :)

Thank you.

Okay now that we know a bit more. It sounds like this isn't really so much a Trans vs. Non-Trans issue. Player A is tired of listening to Player T's problems, and Player T is upset a person they trusted is shutting them out and is lashing out because of it. I still stand by player A being at fault, but would reprimand Player for her use of offensive language. Insulting other player is never allowed.

I will say this: For all the talk about Player A being a "white knight"/"social justice warrior", have they really evolved? It's the same pretentiousness, just a more familiar kind—"All must fend for themselves, which works out well for me. If you don't have your life together, that's not my problem."

I mean, they're still coming across as pretty self-superior. Just not self-righteous.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Take it from a gamer whose gamer group has moved a couple of decades down the road: enjoy gaming for the togetherness and escape from day-to-day concerns. Everyone at the table is just another gamer and we're all there to have a good time.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I will say this: For all the talk about Player A being a "white knight"/"social justice warrior", have they really evolved? It's the same pretentiousness, just a more familiar kind—"All must fend for themselves, which works out well for me. If you don't have your life together, that's not my problem."

I mean, they're still coming across as pretty self-superior. Just not self-righteous.

It sounds like A had a shift on the idealism-cynicism spectrum. It's something that happens.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.

It's normal for friends to rant to each other, but it's also normal for friends to burn out if they keep hearing the same story.

If Player A doesn't want to listen to that stuff anymore (but you guys are still friends), invite Player T (and anyone else that's supportive) an hour or half hour early to the session to just chat.

Get it out of your systems. Then sit down and game with Player A.

Silver Crusade

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I'm wondering how much of a dick Player A has been about this. Your post makes it sound like he was pretty confrontational about this life decision. How does he behave when Player T starts to vent?

He came back from a fur con where he evidently met some lawyers, doctors and former military people. Supposedly he had an enlightening conversation with them that boiled down to, "if you make excuses you will fail in life. If you take accountability for each and everyone one of your failures and learn from them, then you will become successful. If you want to be respected then you need to act, look and speak like a person worthy of respect.

When Person T starts to vent, Person A just looks her direction and says something like, "Dude, come on: we're here to play Pathfinder, not listen to how bad your life is" or after Person T was complaining about the job market and how her Ph.D is worthless he growled, "Do you look like someone who someone else would like to hire and work with? People kind of like things that fit their ideas of what they should or shouldn't look like."

Silver Crusade Contributor

Osric the Vindictive wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I'm wondering how much of a dick Player A has been about this. Your post makes it sound like he was pretty confrontational about this life decision. How does he behave when Player T starts to vent?

He came back from a fur con where he evidently met some lawyers, doctors and former military people. Supposedly he had an enlightening conversation with them that boiled down to, "if you make excuses you will fail in life. If you take accountability for each and everyone one of your failures and learn from them, then you will become successful. If you want to be respected then you need to act, look and speak like a person worthy of respect.

When Person T starts to vent, Person A just looks her direction and says something like, "Dude, come on: we're here to play Pathfinder, not listen to how bad your life is" or after Person T was complaining about the job market and how her Ph.D is worthless he growled, "Do you look like someone who someone else would like to hire and work with? People kind of like things that fit their ideas of what they should or shouldn't look like."

Wow. :(

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

In the end, none of those issues matter, in regards to your game.

That should be handled out of game.

Like I said:

Leave at the door, or leave the game.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Ban A from the planet.


Osric wrote:
"if you make excuses you will fail in life. If you take accountability for each and everyone one of your failures and learn from them, then you will become successful. If you want to be respected then you need to act, look and speak like a person worthy of respect.

Yeah, that pretty much confirms what I was rudely assuming. He's switched from "I'm better than people because I'm righteous" (which is what you indicated he was before) to "People who are struggling do so have only themselves to blame".

The first part of what he said is fine, if a little (okay, a lot) unnecessarily rude to someone who's clearly been treating him like a friend all this time. The second part is a bit more dubious—if people are not hiring her because of her transgenderedness (which is kind of what it sounds like he's saying) then that is definitely something worth complaining about and hardly her fault.

Also, again, way unnecessarily hostile. :P


Osric the Vindictive wrote:
When Person T starts to vent, Person A just looks her direction and says something like, "Dude, come on: we're here to play Pathfinder, not listen to how bad your life is" (1) or after Person T was complaining about the job market and how her Ph.D is worthless he growled, "Do you look like someone who someone else would like to hire and work with? People kind of like things that fit their ideas of what they should or shouldn't look like." (2)

(1) That's pretty much right on. Y'all are there to play Pathfinder.

(2) That, though... that's cold. I'd rather not go beyond the term "cold" for a description.

Silver Crusade Contributor

"Dude", though. It sounds like A should know better. :(


Anyways, I could definitely see her losing her temper at this point. I think Player T has definitely been thoughtless in her venting, but maybe it could have been resolved had Player A decided to be mature, take her aside, and explained his feelings ("Look, I really do sympathize, but I'm at a stressful point in my life right now and I come here to relax."). That would have been the nice thing to do for a gaming buddy.

Instead, he decided to be sarcastic, crazy self-superior, and overall kinda a dick.

On a scale of 1-10, Player T's bad behavior rates a 6,5—not great, needs some work. Player A's is at least an 8. It's different magnitudes of social moronicness.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

My guess is that all of this started with player A being putting too much energy into supporting his friend player T and finally snapping and over-reacting. Or it might be he has been too supportative of more than one person.

One thing that is just objectively true is a transgender person isn't just someone who is a freak who has to get their act together. Gender is a huge part of everyone's identity and being stuck in the wrong body is a major pain.

The fact that anyone will even contemplate gender re-assignment therapy, the operation I mean, or any doctor will perform it, speaks volumes about how serious it is.

You could try suggesting to both of them role playing sessions should be about playing a game and forgetting real world problems for a while. Worth a try. It may allow both to continue in the same group.

These questions are a bit beyond, well a lot beyond, the sorts of question you normally get on Pathfinder threads.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
"Dude", though. It sounds like A should know better. :(

In all fairness, while its original meaning was masculine, 'dude' has become fairly gender neutral.

I was chuckling over the reaction because I find many 'alternative lifestyle' people tend to be a bit hypersensitive to anything that could imply their choices aren't being recognized/acknowledged [including a certain subset of the feminist community.]


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Instead, he decided to be sarcastic, crazy self-superior, and overall kinda a dick.

On a scale of 1-10, Player T's bad behavior rates a 6,5—not great, needs some work. Player A's is at least an 8. It's different magnitudes of social moronicness.

Huh... sacrificing game time to rant about personal problems rates worse than casually being a dick?

Total opposite of my own views on the subject. [Right down to 8 vs 6ish]


10 people marked this as a favorite.

That is weird. I regard deliberate cruelty as much worse than thoughtless complaining. It's really weird that you see "my game time is being wasted" as a bigger problem than "another human being is in pain".

I'm phrasing it like this because I'm not sure I'm understanding you, because I have trouble understanding how anybody could actually think deliberately trying to hurt people's feelings is less of a crime than...whining.

"Casually being a dick" to someone is also known, "casually", as "bullying".

1 to 50 of 275 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / General Discussion / So I have two players who have had a falling out All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.