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This is a friendship problem. If Player T has no other time to socialise with friends and sort through problems, get support and whatnot, of course she's going to latch on to game night as the opportunity to do so.
As for player A, it's not my place to analyse someone I've never met. But I'm going to do it anyway. Sounds like he's taken all his internal frustration and is pushing it out on other people. Empathy and listening are free, and if he can't afford to do that for a friend, that's very sad indeed.
Go out to dinner, socialise. Rejuvenate your friendships and remember why you like each other in the first place. Then make it clear, game night is for gaming.
So be excellent to each other, and party on dudes*.
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So be excellent to each other, and party on dudes*.*** spoiler omitted **
WAs that cloud a reference to Night Vale?
Also yeah, Dude, guy and (depenant on situation) "man" tend to be catch all terms for anyone listening. Lingustics changes over time and now due to the ease of communication everywhere it's evolving faster than ever before.
Blame surfer movies and big lebowski for it's original ubiquitous entry
You seriously don't know Bill & Ted?
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Empathy and listening are free, and if he can't afford to do that for a friend, that's very sad indeed.
There comes a point when it becomes very emotionally draining for you to have to listen to every single problem a friend has and be expected to help them with them.
That's the kind of stuff that ruins a friendship, when it feels like all you're there for is to be a wall the other person can vent at.
I dunno. Based just on what we've heard I really sympathize with this Player A guy. It gets frustrating when a friend does that to you constantly. It doesn't excuse any rude comments he makes but it's certainly understandable.
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There is no one who is more "right" here.
Nobody is going to win.
Everyone will lose. Everyone.
The only way to have resolution, is for everyone to check there baggage at the door.
It's a nice thought. :)
What some consider baggage is others' vital identity, though. There probably needs to be time set aside outside the game for the boundaries to be drawn.
Okay. Their vital identity is not relevant to the game. Maybe "baggage" is the wrong word, but there is no need to be an ever-present discussion in-game.
I game with trans people, and they feel no need to constantly bring it up in game. I also game with a rather obnoxiously conservative christian, and he also manages not to bring up his view in-game.Whatever you want to call it, it should be left at the doorstep.
Good for them! (Not sarcasm; actual compliment.)
Some others might not be so eager to be accepting or conciliatory. Hence my suggestion: take a little time - once, not over and over - work out what's acceptable and what's not, and then game on.
You don't even have to be accepting.
You just check it at the door, game on, and have some fun.
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Sometimes you just need to focus on yourself and don't have the energy left to care much about other people.
Especially persons who used to always help everyone can come to a point where they either break or stop using their energy on others.
That is not being an ass. That is not being a jerk. That is just a case of self preservation.
This really is no trans vs non-trans issue, as many have pointed out. And I have absolutely no problem with LGBT (I think that's the right short in English) people. I once had a flat-mate whom I knew to be gay before he accepted it himself. And I once had a crush for a woman who later decided to become a man, no hard feelings or anything.
But putting your burden on other people's shoulders is not the right way of handling things. And if people offer you to share your burden and later tell you that they can't carry it anymore you should accept that. It sounds like player T is not ready to accept it.
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The Bill & Ted movies are excellent.
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Yoooo so I'm very late to this conversation, but I had a similar, if less intense scenario (two, actually) at my table a few months back. And while in my case transphobia really was the cause of the breakdown of a game, as previously mentioned, this isn't that.
I've had friends like Player A, that feel a philosophical change that causes them to distance themselves and break ties with people. While I vehemently disagree with his views and the things he said, he does have the right to request that game time be dedicated to game time.
THAT BEING SAID, the degradation of a friendship is so much more important than the game, and they've handled it s!@*ty so far. Which is what close friends do at points like this: the same thing happened between me and my DM over feminism, environmentalism, and transness. If their friendship is over, invite them both over to talk to you (so you don't appear to be playing favorites) and let them talk it out without the other players. Like, this part you honestly shouldn't be involved in so much but it's your game and that puts you in a strange authority position.
If their friendship is over, then fine. But if you and your players are fine with Player T talking about her personal life, and you folks are friends, then let her talk. Player A's philosophical views do /not/ give him the right to drag down a friend. If his views no longer let him accept the plight of marginalized populations, fine. I'm trans and I play with people who won't accept feminists, vegans, or trans people because they have the respect to keep it out of the game.
In return, Player A is not going to go after Player T. That's starting s#*@ and it's no good. I get it. A lot of what she's said, actually, I see it and I live it. But this argument will damage this whole social support she's got going.
If your other players and you aren't comfortable with her sharing during the game, you as the DM have to talk to her about it. But if it's just Player A, he needs to be quiet because transwomen are often very short on social resources.
And @blackbloodtroll - I've seen your opinion throughout the thread, no need to re-iterate your adamant stance against the mixing of personal life and game life, but a lot of us lack resources to differentiate the two. Groups that can always keep it separate are great: I have one like that now. But it isn't always like that. Friends are friends, and playing a game doesn't change that.
Sorry for the wall of text, I've just seen this happen, especially in groups where someone is a minority. If either of them or both of them refuse to cooperate, kick them out and salvage your individual friendships with them if you have them. If they'll play by your rules and show each other some respect, your game can go on fine.
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I have been in a similar situation. A former friend of mine is gay (and/or transgender, not entirely sure), and everything she does and says is about being gay. She only watches TV shows with gay characters, she always plays gay characters in RPGs and all her posts are about being gay.Now, I have no problem with gay people, plenty of my other friends are gay, but they are not "only" gay. They don't identify as solely being gay. They are gay AND academics, or gay AND nerds, or gay AND artists, etc.
Some people are like that. In one game I'm in there is a woman who, after becoming a mother, was only about children. She only talked about her child, her character had profession midwife, everything was only about children, having children, birthing or pregnancy.
This has nothing to do with being gay or whatever but with some people having single-thematic personalities.
Sometimes it lessens after some time, because it's not new anymore but sometimes it sticks. The woman above became annoying enough with her child fixation that I made sure to not have a second gaming group in which we both take part in. After some time it got better but then another member of the group became father* and that triggered her again.
*is that the right way to say it in English? To become father?
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From what you've said, I know is that your table felt like a safe enough environment in the past that T felt open enough to be very open about her life and problems, and that T & A (ha) used to be pretty close friends. In the past month or so A has had an abrupt and profound experience or epiphany involving lawyers at furcon. The result, you feel, has been a fairly extreme shift in outlook/personality. This has led A to feel that the table is no longer a place where T should be open about her life (not the trans part, just the personal frustrations part), which he seems to have informed the table of in a rude manner. T in response to A has also responded in a rude manner.
Did I miss anything?
Here are some questions:
1) So I guess this is when you need to decide what kind of gaming group you have. Are you:
a) A group of friends who play Pathfinder
b) A group of Pathfinders who play friendly
c) A mixture of A and B
d) Totally not worth the frustration.
Now all are valid options, your playstyle is your playstyle and your interpersonal relationships are your interpersonal relationships.
I've played at all, and enjoy a, b, and c as long the overall table vibe is good. I don't enjoy option d obviously.
If you chose:
(a) it's your place, should you want it, to as a friend to try to ameliorate the situation.
(b) It's your place as a player, and your responsibility as the GM to have them behave civilly at your table. Do so in a friendly and open-handed manner.
(c) As a player at this table, your first responsibility is as a friend, your second is as a GM. "Choose wisely."
(d) You no longer have this problem, and can just call it quits (which may lead to some others problems though).
2) Hey I guess you didn't choose (d) in the last question! The next question is what do you want the group to be and how does that compares to what it is currently?
3) How do the other members of your group feel about the situation. If you don't know, ask them each privately without asking T & A (their opinions seem clear)?
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Empathy and listening are free, and if he can't afford to do that for a friend, that's very sad indeed.
There comes a point when it becomes very emotionally draining for you to have to listen to every single problem a friend has and be expected to help them with them.
That's the kind of stuff that ruins a friendship, when it feels like all you're there for is to be a wall the other person can vent at.
I dunno. Based just on what we've heard I really sympathize with this Player A guy. It gets frustrating when a friend does that to you constantly. It doesn't excuse any rude comments he makes but it's certainly understandable.
What Rynjin said.
I've been to that point where being a friend was more draining than stepping away. I have a slight bit more control than A about lashing out, but I've distanced myself from the problem friend.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would like to throw out there that there is very high rate of suicide in the trans community. Abruptly removing a primary support mechanism can be devastating to someone who already feels troubled and alone.
If you and your group care at all for Player T then I would suggest those of you who do speak with her in a more personal setting to ease into the idea that you would like downplay personal issues during game time. You are not trying to remove the support group but rather trying to preserve an environment where everyone at the table can release their current cares at least for a few hours and deal with problems that can be solved with dice and clever misuse of illusion spells.
You can also take Player A aside and tell them not to antagonize Player T as it also hurts the carefree environment.
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I feel for "T". I really do. They are going through something in life I will never fully understand because I cannot walk in their shoes. I can empathize and "get it", but never fully understand.
I understand "A" much better. I have had enough people in my life that, for one reason or another, need extra attention. There comes a time, personally, that I cannot divest that much energy into their needs. Generally due to the fact that their needs never end.
Sometimes they need to let their needs take a backseat when with friends, their support group. This helps keep those that are trying to support you from burning out from everything needing to revolve around them.
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I could see either's point, if the other were always eating up all of the group's time by focusing discussion on their own personal issues. Especially if game time is being sacrificed for those discussions.
So, the important question is, "Can A and/or T play the game at the table without repeatedly bringing up their own personal stuff?" If they cannot, then that's a problem. They are basically taking time away from all of the other people at the table. If these issues are only present when not playing, then I'd just let them work themselves out. A's new world view isn't likely to last for very long anyway, as it's very hard for people to so quickly change such things.
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Does no one from this group ever meet up outside game?
What is wrong with having one scheduled period of time, where the woes of the world, are not focus of discussion?
Seriously, how can a temporarily, agreed upon, suspension of such discussions be something that offends someone?
Does no one from this group ever meet up outside game?
What is wrong with having one scheduled period of time, where the woes of the world, are not focus of discussion?
Seriously, how can a temporarily, agreed upon, suspension of such discussions be something that offends someone?
I'm not so sure it is even the individual topic that is causing the issue. It sounds more like people who make every topic about THEIR topic, which means they are trying to dominate the group's time. This is bad. If this isn't what's happening, then I don't see what the problem could be.
It's like the guy who tries to make everything about his ex-wife.
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Does no one from this group ever meet up outside game?
What is wrong with having one scheduled period of time, where the woes of the world, are not focus of discussion?
Seriously, how can a temporarily, agreed upon, suspension of such discussions be something that offends someone?
I'm not so sure it is even the individual topic that is causing the issue. It sounds more like people who make every topic about THEIR topic, which means they are trying to dominate the group's time. This is bad. If this isn't what's happening, then I don't see what the problem could be.
It's like the guy who tries to make everything about his ex-wife.
Indeed. It doesn't need to be about one thing.
Both seem to be in competition, to dominate the group discussions, with outside issues/views/etc.
If all those things were checked at the door, there would no longer be a competition.
There are nice ways to respond to "b%~@+ing" about things personal to you.
But, "b!%@~ing" about things personal to you also comes with the risk that you may get reactions you don't want or are rude.
In a game setting, amongst friends, I'd hope the nice road would be taken.
Same goes for advice. You don;t always get the advice you want to hear when you ask for it.
I'd pull each player aside and ask how long this is going to go on, because, you know, you're more responsible now and you don't have time for this s@&@. If T can't talk around A without A being a dick, then they can both leave, as you're not going to play favorites because their problems aren't your problems.
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I doubt we can really see what the real problem is without more information, probably from several sources.
It's not clear to me that the problem is just that A has gotten sick of listening to T's problems and trying to help. A seems to have had a more fundamental philosophical transformation to something of a self-centered jerk, with justifications about it being best for everyone.
This isn't two near strangers arguing about politics, this is two formerly close friends falling out. That's never pleasant or easy to deal with. Not fixable by just not bringing up politics in game.
Probably closer to a couple breaking up and still trying to game together.
That's really the point. If they can't check it at the door, than they can't game together.
Imagine a bunch of friends got together every Sunday, to bake a cake.
One friend, suddenly wants to interrupt baking, every time, to discuss a another friend who got shot years ago. This invokes another friend, to give a speech, every time, about global disarmament.
No cakes, are ever baked.
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*is that the right way to say it in English? To become father?
When you use a noun there it needs an indefinite article. "to become a father.
If you used an adjective there instead, you wouldn't need the article. "to become angry" "to become wealthy" etc.
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That is weird. I regard deliberate cruelty as much worse than thoughtless complaining. It's really weird that you see "my game time is being wasted" as a bigger problem than "another human being is in pain".
I'm phrasing it like this because I'm not sure I'm understanding you, because I have trouble understanding how anybody could actually think deliberately trying to hurt people's feelings is less of a crime than...whining.
"Casually being a dick" to someone is also known, "casually", as "bullying".
The thing is, it sounds like Person T is dragging everyone through her land mine/barbed wire field of agony each and every week. Without progress. It just keeps starting at the same point and going from there every week without fail.
Everyone has their own personal tolerance level for this sort of stuff. After a certain point someone is bound to say "Enough".
Could Player A have been more "sensitive"? Probably.
Could Person T be one of those soul sucking vampires who moan and groan about all their problems and try to drag everyone around them into their pit of misery (and also happens to be T as well)? Also just as likely.
Game time should be for game. Not therapy.
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So two friends had a falling out, well it happens.
Try reduce the amount of sharing and off topic discussions at the table, and schedule a separate time for anyone who wants do participate (maybe a shared dinner or something) to talk your their real lifes (you know the stuff you can talk about with close friends).
That said, I know how it feels to have others air their grievances to you (I might be to good at that, apparently people love to tell me their problems), and sometimes even I need a friendly ear to talk about my own problems.
Every gaming table has their own set of unwritten rules, and those should be relatively obvious to everybody.
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And, as I said before, it sounds like it's not just actual gaming time,...
Which makes me wonder, "How does everyone else feel about both sides of this argument?" Do they feel that A and/or T is monopolizing the group's time? Are players B,C,D and E getting as much time to talk about what's important to them as T and A are taking?
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That is weird. I regard deliberate cruelty as much worse than thoughtless complaining. It's really weird that you see "my game time is being wasted" as a bigger problem than "another human being is in pain".
I'm phrasing it like this because I'm not sure I'm understanding you, because I have trouble understanding how anybody could actually think deliberately trying to hurt people's feelings is less of a crime than...whining.
"Casually being a dick" to someone is also known, "casually", as "bullying".
The thing is, it sounds like Person T is dragging everyone through her land mine/barbed wire field of agony each and every week. Without progress. It just keeps starting at the same point and going from there every week without fail.
Everyone has their own personal tolerance level for this sort of stuff. After a certain point someone is bound to say "Enough".
Could Player A have been more "sensitive"? Probably.
Could Person T be one of those soul sucking vampires who moan and groan about all their problems and try to drag everyone around them into their pit of misery (and also happens to be T as well)? Also just as likely.
Game time should be for game. Not therapy.
Possible. Maybe you'd file this as "could have been more 'sensitive'", but going from a "Social Justice Warrior white knight" to calling her a "Freak" and saying "if they (trans people) improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in", suggests to me there's something more going on.
Bolded: The first post of the OP indicates that Player A has said that in general, apparently to many people with whom he has cut ties. Not specifically to Person T. Player A may have also said those things about Person T (which is very poopy if it happened) but we have gone from some generalizations about people who haven't got their act together, to the specific argument between A and T.