Elven Curve Blade + Unarmed Strike


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Liberty's Edge

If I am wielding an Elven Curve Blade with two hands, can I also make an Unarmed Strike with my feet in the same round? How does making multiple attacks work (If at all) with Unarmed Strike + Two-handed Weapons?

Silver Crusade Contributor

I believe it does not work, since you only have two "hands" worth of effort to attack with.

There was a very controversial FAQ on the subject. :)


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It depends.

If you are say a 6th level fighter using an elven cuve blade you could attack with Elven Curve blade as your first iterative, and unarmed Kick with your second.

You could not however dual wield to get 2 attacks with Elven Curve blade and also a Kick.

Shadow Lodge

Ughbash is correct.

You can also make Attacks of Opportunity with either. This is useful if your 2 hander is a reach weapon and you are using UAS to threaten adjacent squares, or if you have a feat like Snake Fang or Vicious Stomp that lets you make extra AoO but requires those attacks to be UAS.


What you need to attack with both weapons as if dual wielding is ability to Flurry, and inclusion of Elven Curve Blade in weapons you can use for your Flurry. Only way I know of to do this is to get 6 levels of Sohei Monk (which is not enough because Elven Curve Blade is not in the list of weapon groups you can get Sohei Monk Weapon Training with) and 5 levels of Fighter (or enough levels of some other archetype that has its own unrestricted Weapon Training), and you use the latter to get Weapon Training with any group that gets Elven Curve Blade (Sohei Monk restricts what its Weapon Training works with, but doesn't restrict Flurry to weapons that you got Weapon Training from Sohei Monk). So Rules As Written, it's possible, but you are going to need FOREVER to come online (for PFS or the Council of Thieves AP, you would be 2 levels short of retirement).

Strangely, the Sohei Monk weapons that you can get training with include Spears and Polearms (but not any type of sword unless it is also a Monk weapon), so if you used an Elven Branched Spear (another two-handed exotic weapon that is Finessable, and has Reach) or a Fauchard (probably the best all-around polearm), you could get online a whole lot faster and without multiclassing.

Also note that Sohei Monk's Unarmed Strike is like the Improved Unarmed Strike feat rather than a normal Monk's Unarmed Strike -- its damage doesn't scale with level.

Shadow Lodge

Well, you do get the initial damage boost to d6.


You can absolutely attack with unarmed strikes at the same time as a 2 handed weapon.

The FAQ mentioned specifies Armor spikes and a Spiked gauntlet.

The Spiked gauntlet is easy, since it is on a hand, and your hand was on the 2 handed weapon. However, the armor spikes bit was not well received.

However, Unarmed strikes, Boot Blades, Barbezu Beards, and Dwarven Boulder Helmets do not use hands, and can be used to two-weapon fight at the same time as a 2-handed weapon. You take appropriate penalties (-2 on all attacks if you have the TWF feat, -6 with the 2handed weapon and -10 on the unarmed strike if you don't have the TWF feat)

Your unarmed strikes also get only half strength modifier to damage when TWF (barring certain feats and abilities).

Shadow Lodge

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

You can absolutely attack with unarmed strikes at the same time as a 2 handed weapon.

The FAQ mentioned specifies Armor spikes and a Spiked gauntlet.

The Spiked gauntlet is easy, since it is on a hand, and your hand was on the 2 handed weapon. However, the armor spikes bit was not well received.

No, it wasn't well received. That doesn't mean it's not the official rule. If you think it's a bad rule you can change it in your games or suggest that other people change it, but don't misinform people about it.

TGMaxMaxer wrote:
However, Unarmed strikes, Boot Blades, Barbezu Beards, and Dwarven Boulder Helmets do not use hands, and can be used to two-weapon fight at the same time as a 2-handed weapon.

When you are using a two-handed weapon, you are using your off hand and are therefore unable to make an off-hand attack even if the weapon used does not use a physical hand (eg armour spikes). Source

FAQ:
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.

TGMaxMaxer wrote:
You take appropriate penalties (-2 on all attacks if you have the TWF feat, -6 with the 2handed weapon and -10 on the unarmed strike if you don't have the TWF feat)

Without the TWF feat, the penalties for making an off-hand attack with a light weapon such as an UAS are -4 on the primary and -8 on the off-hand, not -6 and -10. This is assuming that your main-hand weapon is a light or one-handed weapon (because otherwise you can't TWF).

TGMaxMaxer wrote:
Your unarmed strikes also get only half strength modifier to damage when TWF (barring certain feats and abilities).

Only if you are using them as your off-hand attack. Presumably this would be the case if your other weapon is as big as possible* but it bears clarifying.

*One option would be to grab a longsword or if you have EWP a bastard sword, two-hand it for single attacks, and switch to a one-handed grip and TWF when you can full attack. I'm not sure that's actually advisable, though, since the cost for an Amulet of Mighty Fists to keep your UAS well enhanced (in addition to the magic longsword) would outweigh any damage benefits compared to just using a greatsword or simple TWF.

Grand Lodge

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You can only two weapon fight with a two handed weapon, if you use a Sea-knife, or Barbazu Beard.

This is because, in spite of the FAQ, these weapons have text explicitly allowing it.

Outside of the FAQ, there are no written rules disallowing the combination of two handed weapons, and two weapon fighting.

Shadow Lodge

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Hence the FAQ being controversial. However, it exists, and it is inappropriate to claim as TGMaxMaxer did that because the FAQ only specifically mentions armour spikes it doesn't disallow TWF with an elven curve blade and UAS.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

thatcheriliff wrote:
If I am wielding an Elven Curve Blade with two hands, can I also make an Unarmed Strike with my feet in the same round? How does making multiple attacks work (If at all) with Unarmed Strike + Two-handed Weapons?

You need 3 hands for that.

You are using your main hand and an offhand to use the Curved Blade. To also use the unarmed strike, you need a third hand.

Grand Lodge

Unarmed Strikes are not "fist only".

You can kick people.

I get what you are saying though.

What you mean, is you need a third metaphysical hand.

Alchemists, with three hands, can't do it either.

The two-handed weapon consumes an attack, that hasn't happened, because it uses the off-hand, which does not exist, unless you are two weapon fighting, which you are not doing, because it consumes a potential attack.

It is a circular reasoning, based off unwritten rules, but there is a FAQ/Errata for it.


@BBT: By the same logic, a full-round action subsumes both your standard and move action that haven't happened and vice versa. If you make a move action to move 30', you cannot then start a full-attack that round but if you moved 30' in your last turn, you can make a full-attack this turn. That's a matter of action economy. Making attacks is a matter of attack economy. The off-hand "exists", but an off-hand attack doesn't exist if you aren't using TWF rules. But you still have your "off-hand" in the same way you have your "swift action". They just clarified that when the book says you use two "hands" to wield a weapon, it is talking about both your actual, physical hands, as well as the attack economy and weapons not wielded in a hand are only exempted from the physical hands restriction, not the attack economy restriction.

Grand Lodge

So, can I attack with my off-hand, without two-weapon fighting?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, can I attack with my off-hand, without two-weapon fighting?

The physical one? Or the action economy one?

Yes you may attack with a physical one? (6th level Fighter with two swords each doing one attack)

Yes you may attack with the action economy one? (1st level Fighter with a greatsword)


blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, can I attack with my off-hand, without two-weapon fighting?

If you're a Kasatha, sure you could use twf with a two-handed weapon, though this seems to be a specific example that trumps the general rule though.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, can I attack with my off-hand, without two-weapon fighting?

You can't attack with your off-hand, but you can leverage your off-hand attack economy to wield a 2-h weapon.

Sovereign Court

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You can only two weapon fight with a two handed weapon, if you use a Sea-knife, or Barbazu Beard.

This is because, in spite of the FAQ, these weapons have text explicitly allowing it.

Though both have negatives that make them not really worth it. (Though I have considered trying a weird build using a Barbazu Beard & Panther Style so that the AOOs you provoke become beneficial.)


Panther style only reacts to AoOs provoked by movement, not by other means.

Sovereign Court

Kazaan wrote:
Panther style only reacts to AoOs provoked by movement, not by other means.

Well - nvm then.


thatcheriliff wrote:
If I am wielding an Elven Curve Blade with two hands, can I also make an Unarmed Strike with my feet in the same round?

I'd allow it, provided the character has the Monk 'Unarmed Strike' class ability (or similar ability in other classes). Specifically, if it has this language:

Quote:
A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.

The reasoning: Unarmed Strike (non-monk) does not have the language of being able to strike with multiple parts of their body. Even the improved unarmed strike feat lacks this detail. Therefor, the character needs to be specifically trained to do so and should benefit from this training.


I always thought that the wording used for the Monk's unarmed strike was to allow him to do stuff like take out jailors with his feet alone while still manacled to a prison wall - or take out assassins with his feet alone while pretending to be a waiter carrying a tray of filled champagne glasses at the king's cocktail party. :)

More seriously, I'm in the camp that ínterprets it thusly: a (normal) character has only two hands' worth of attacks. The off-hand can be used to carry/use a shield, use an off-hand weapon for a two-weapon attack, or add the extra leverage needed to wield a two-handed weapon. In all cases, the off-hand is still being used, and takes a part (active or not) in the attack. A foot, elbow, and any other attack form from the Monk's unarmed strike class feature can only be used if the off-hand is empty or otherwise uninvolved with the combat (carrying the McGuffin, etc.) that round.


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An unarmed strike is not restricted to fists, even if one is not a monk. Anyone can kick, regardless of whether they have improved unarmed strike or not. Saying that you have to have levels in monk to kick is ridiculous.

FAQ Support:

Unarmed Strike: For the purpose of magic fang and other spells, is an unarmed strike your whole body, or is it a part of your body (such as a fist or kick)?

Quote:
a creature's unarmed strike is its entire body


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

An unarmed strike is not restricted to fists, even if one is not a monk. Anyone can kick, regardless of whether they have improved unarmed strike or not. Saying that you have to have levels in monk to kick is ridiculous.

FAQ Support:

Unarmed Strike: For the purpose of magic fang and other spells, is an unarmed strike your whole body, or is it a part of your body (such as a fist or kick)?

Quote:
a creature's unarmed strike is its entire body

More support that a FAQ is needed for shields and hands since the ONLY place that states that a non-monk CAN use feet+ for their unarmed strike is that FAQ for Magic Fang.

People point to the Buckler and say that the rule about attacking and retaining AC is Buckler only since it isn't pointed out anywhere under "shields" in general. But using more than a fist for unarmed strike is only listed under Monk and not pointed out anywhere else (like under Unarmed Strikes, or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat). However, now we have a FAQ that says you can kick. We also need a FAQ to say using your shield "hand" to do anything causes you to lose your shield bonus to AC. (even though it is specifically called out under Heavy shield that you can't use your shield hand for anything else period).

EDIT: Just realized this was the spin off thread from the 2 handed + Shield thread, and not actually that thread.


Canthin wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

An unarmed strike is not restricted to fists, even if one is not a monk. Anyone can kick, regardless of whether they have improved unarmed strike or not. Saying that you have to have levels in monk to kick is ridiculous.

FAQ Support:

Unarmed Strike: For the purpose of magic fang and other spells, is an unarmed strike your whole body, or is it a part of your body (such as a fist or kick)?

Quote:
a creature's unarmed strike is its entire body

More support that a FAQ is needed for shields and hands since the ONLY place that states that a non-monk CAN use feet+ for their unarmed strike is that FAQ for Magic Fang.

People point to the Buckler and say that the rule about attacking and retaining AC is Buckler only since it isn't pointed out anywhere under "shields" in general. But using more than a fist for unarmed strike is only listed under Monk and not pointed out anywhere else (like under Unarmed Strikes, or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat). However, now we have a FAQ that says you can kick. We also need a FAQ to say using your shield "hand" to do anything causes you to lose your shield bonus to AC. (even though it is specifically called out under Heavy shield that you can't use your shield hand for anything else period).

EDIT: Just realized this was the spin off thread from the 2 handed + Shield thread, and not actually that thread.

The text of unarmed strike in UE states an unarmed strike can be a punch or kick. "An unarmed strike is an attack such as a punch or a kick where the attacker is not using a weapon to make the attack". it right in the PRD...


graystone wrote:
The text of unarmed strike in UE states an unarmed strike can be a punch or kick. "An unarmed strike is an attack such as a punch or a kick where the attacker is not using a weapon to make the attack". it right in the PRD...

Ah, my bad. I was using the CRB and flipping through pages. Didn't think to look in a newer book.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
An unarmed strike is not restricted to fists, even if one is not a monk. Anyone can kick, regardless of whether they have improved unarmed strike or not. Saying that you have to have levels in monk to kick is ridiculous.

You are right, that would be ridiculous. However, allowing only monks (or classes that have the 'Unarmed Strike' class ability) to make unarmed attacks while attacking with another two-handed weapon, seems perfectly justified. They have specialized training.


So, a question:

Free your hand from a two-handed weapon is a free action, so with BBA 6+, can I do two Curved Blade strikes, let the hand go free and do the strike from the Two Weapon Fighting?


DeathlessOne wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
An unarmed strike is not restricted to fists, even if one is not a monk. Anyone can kick, regardless of whether they have improved unarmed strike or not. Saying that you have to have levels in monk to kick is ridiculous.
You are right, that would be ridiculous. However, allowing only monks (or classes that have the 'Unarmed Strike' class ability) to make unarmed attacks while attacking with another two-handed weapon, seems perfectly justified. They have specialized training.

OK. Pick up a broom and hold it in both hands. Now kick something. Did that take specialized training?


Metal Sonic wrote:

So, a question:

Free your hand from a two-handed weapon is a free action, so with BBA 6+, can I do two Curved Blade strikes, let the hand go free and do the strike from the Two Weapon Fighting?

There's a little wiggle room here, but it looks like the extra attack from TWF is more restrictive than iterative attacks or a monk flurry-of-blows.

FAQ

Like an unarmed strike, armor spikes are not inherently associated with a particular hand, so it is not immediately logical that one shouldn't be able to do this. However, the designers have decided that it can't be done, as well as not being able to be used with spiked gauntlets. If you can't let go of your sword and punch with a spiked gauntlet, you probably can't let go of your sword and punch with a bare fist. Likewise, if you can't ram your spike-enhanced shoulder into a foe, or kick with spiked greaves, after attacking with a sword, you probably can't ram your non-spike-enhanced shoulder or kick with an ordinary foot either.

Edit: to be clear, this is referring to the EXTRA attack(s) you get from TWF. As I posted upthread, you can absolutely attack with armor spikes, a spiked gauntlet, or unarmed strikes while wielding a two-handed sword, as long as you aren't getting more attacks than your BAB gives you (along with bonus attacks from things like Haste, Blessing of Fervor, or flurry of blows).


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
OK. Pick up a broom and hold it in both hands. Now kick something. Did that take specialized training?

Not in how you described it. Now lets see you apply that to a combat situation where your stance and balance play a huge factor into the outcome, where you need to be able to shift in a moments notice to react to your opponents movements and you decide to kick them, after swinging a two handed weapon.

So . . . Yeah. I think it does require specialized training in order to do it properly.

Scarab Sages

DeathlessOne wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
OK. Pick up a broom and hold it in both hands. Now kick something. Did that take specialized training?

Not in how you described it. Now lets see you apply that to a combat situation where your stance and balance play a huge factor into the outcome, where you need to be able to shift in a moments notice to react to your opponents movements and you decide to kick them, after swinging a two handed weapon.

So . . . Yeah. I think it does require specialized training in order to do it properly.

Yeah it does. The Improved unarmed strike feat represents that training. Otherwise you flail about so much you provoke an AoO if you attempt it.


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thatcheriliff wrote:
If I am wielding an Elven Curve Blade with two hands, can I also make an Unarmed Strike with my feet in the same round? How does making multiple attacks work (If at all) with Unarmed Strike + Two-handed Weapons?

This has got to be around the 8th thread on this topic in the last two weeks...

The following should work in most cases:

--------------------------------------------------

1) Calculate how many normal main hand attacks you get (MHA)

2) Calculate how many offhand attacks you get (OHA)

3) You can continue making attacks as long as neither of these values drop below 0:
___a) Make a one handed attack: Subtract 1 from MHA
___b) Make an offhand attack: Subtract 1 from OHA
___c) Make an attack requiring two hands: Subtract 1 from both MHA and OHA

SPECIAL: If, and only if, you make nothing but two handed attacks in a round, you may instead make a number of such attacks equal to your MHA.
(instead of the above procedure)

4) Perform any additional natural attacks you possess, provided the limb associated with each of these attack has not already been used.

--------------------------------------------------


Imbicatus wrote:
Yeah it does. The Improved unarmed strike feat represents that training. Otherwise you flail about so much you provoke an AoO if you attempt it.

I disagree. All that feat does is allow you to no longer provoke when making an unarmed strike, and lets you deal lethal or non-lethal damage with one. It does not work like a Monk's Unarmed Strike. It does not state you no longer have off-hand attacks with unarmed strikes. It does not say you can make attacks with your unarmed strike if both your hands are full.

Improved unarmed strike is specialized training, as it is a feat. It is not Unarmed Strike, which could be considered highly specialized training.

Scarab Sages

DeathlessOne wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Yeah it does. The Improved unarmed strike feat represents that training. Otherwise you flail about so much you provoke an AoO if you attempt it.

I disagree. All that feat does is allow you to no longer provoke when making an unarmed strike, and lets you deal lethal or non-lethal damage with one. It does not work like a Monk's Unarmed Strike. It does not state you no longer have off-hand attacks with unarmed strikes. It does not say you can make attacks with your unarmed strike if both your hands are full.

Improved unarmed strike is specialized training, as it is a feat. It is not Unarmed Strike, which could be considered highly specialized training.

The feat doesn't need to say you can make attacks with your unarmed strike if both your hands are full because the CRB combat chapter already does.

From the Combat Chapter on Pg. 182

Unarmed Attacks wrote:
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:


Imbicatus wrote:


The feat doesn't need to say you can make attacks with your unarmed strike if both your hands are full because the CRB combat chapter already does.

Except it doesn't. It is specifically lacking the language that you can make an unarmed strike while your hands are full. It doesn't even mention making attacks while you are wielding another weapon. Only the Unarmed Strike ability of the monk (and similar entries) have the language of being able to make unarmed strikes while their hands are full.


A creature's unarmed strike is its entire body.

A creature's unarmed strike is its entire body.

A creature's unarmed strike is its entire body.

A creature's unarmed strike is its entire body.

I don't see how people are still getting this one wrong.


I blame the schools.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Everybody wants to get extra attacks. But you can't scam the system for extra attacks. Doesn't matter if you're a monk, if you have a special feat, or if you have a third hand. You simply don't get extra attacks, with the sole exception of using TWF, which as its name suggests implies fighting with two weapons, each of which can be wielded in one hand.

Scarab Sages

Wheldrake wrote:
Everybody wants to get extra attacks. But you can't scam the system for extra attacks. Doesn't matter if you're a monk, if you have a special feat, or if you have a third hand. You simply don't get extra attacks, with the sole exception of using TWF, which as its name suggests implies fighting with two weapons, each of which can be wielded in one hand.

This isn't about TWF. It's about Iterative Attacks and AoOs. You cannot use TWF to make an attack with a Two handed weapon and an attack with an unarmed strike.

You can use TWF to make an attack with a one handed weapon and a kick whilst holding a shield.

You can make an attack with a two handed reach weapon at reach and use an iterative attack to make a kick or headbutt against an adjacent opponent.

You can make an attack with two handed reach weapon and threaten AoOs with both the reach weapon and an unarmed strike.


DeathlessOne wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:


The feat doesn't need to say you can make attacks with your unarmed strike if both your hands are full because the CRB combat chapter already does.
Except it doesn't. It is specifically lacking the language that you can make an unarmed strike while your hands are full. It doesn't even mention making attacks while you are wielding another weapon. Only the Unarmed Strike ability of the monk (and similar entries) have the language of being able to make unarmed strikes while their hands are full.

Are you serious? The first thing I would do to any DM that tried this is to pick up the rulebook, and then kick him.


Wheldrake wrote:
if you have a third hand.

An actual 3rd arm (non-vestigial) gets you an extra attack through multiweapon fighting.


Imbicatus wrote:


This isn't about TWF. It's about Iterative Attacks and AoOs. You cannot use TWF to make an attack with a Two handed weapon and an attack with an unarmed strike.

Well, there has been a misunderstanding. Also, a lack of clarification on my part. I was arguing against using TWF with 2H weapon and unarmed strike and was perceived to be arguing against something else entirely. There is no disagreement here, after all.


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OK then... I was confused as to where the confusion was coming from. You don't get an extra attack using TWF, that's made clear in the FAQ, but there isn't anything stopping you from using one iterative attack with a two-handed weapon, and the next iterative attack with an unarmed strike, without letting go of the two-handed weapon. Monks can do this in a flurry with any combination of weapons and unarmed strikes, disregarding the TWF rules.


graystone wrote:
Wheldrake wrote:
if you have a third hand.
An actual 3rd arm (non-vestigial) gets you an extra attack through multiweapon fighting.

Actually, it doesn't...

Multiweapon fighting lowers the penalty for attacking with multiple weapons, but doesn't inherently give you additional attacks.

However, pretty much every creature with more than two arms has special rules which allow them to attack with all their arms. (but this isn't an automatic feature of possessing additional limbs)


Byakko wrote:
graystone wrote:
Wheldrake wrote:
if you have a third hand.
An actual 3rd arm (non-vestigial) gets you an extra attack through multiweapon fighting.

Actually, it doesn't...

Multiweapon fighting lowers the penalty for attacking with multiple weapons, but doesn't inherently give you additional attacks.

However, pretty much every creature with more than two arms has special rules which allow them to attack with all their arms. (but this isn't an automatic feature of possessing additional limbs)

Normal section of the multi-weapon fighting feat. "A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)" So it's normal that an extra arm grants an extra offhand. Note the "ALL it's off hands" part.

The 'special rules' for races are pretty much just a reiteration of what they already get. For instance, the Multi-Armed ability of the Kasathas does absolutely nothing after it gives you 4 arms as everything after that is what normally happens with extra arms. It's like elven/orc blood ability on a 1/2 elf/orc. The subtype already gives everything the ability said. It literally is a waste of ink that just restates what you can do.


graystone wrote:
Byakko wrote:
graystone wrote:
Wheldrake wrote:
if you have a third hand.
An actual 3rd arm (non-vestigial) gets you an extra attack through multiweapon fighting.

Actually, it doesn't...

Multiweapon fighting lowers the penalty for attacking with multiple weapons, but doesn't inherently give you additional attacks.

However, pretty much every creature with more than two arms has special rules which allow them to attack with all their arms. (but this isn't an automatic feature of possessing additional limbs)

Normal section of the multi-weapon fighting feat. "A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)" So it's normal that an extra arm grants an extra offhand. Note the "ALL it's off hands" part.

The 'special rules' for races are pretty much just a reiteration of what they already get. For instance, the Multi-Armed ability of the Kasathas does absolutely nothing after it gives you 4 arms as everything after that is what normally happens with extra arms. It's like elven/orc blood ability on a 1/2 elf/orc. The subtype already gives everything the ability said. It literally is a waste of ink that just restates what you can do.

Just because it lists a penalty for potential offhand attacks doesn't mean additional attacks are automatically granted.

Having additional limbs does not automatically grant you more attacks.

To reiterate, if Kasathas didn't have the Multi-Armed racial trait, they would only have one offhand attack despite having 4 arms (regardless of whether they have the Multiweapon Fighting feat).

To make this perfectly clear, if a human chooses to kick as their primary unarmed strike, can they then make two offhand attacks as their arms/hands have not been used yet?
No.

Scarab Sages

Byakko wrote:

To make this perfectly clear, if a human chooses to kick as their primary unarmed strike, can they then make two offhand attacks as their arms/hands have not been used yet?
No.

Sure they can, if they have ITWF.


thatcheriliff wrote:
If I am wielding an Elven Curve Blade with two hands, can I also make an Unarmed Strike with my feet in the same round? How does making multiple attacks work (If at all) with Unarmed Strike + Two-handed Weapons?

If your using a two handed weapon, as per the TWF with a Two handed weapon FAQ, you cannot get EXTRA attacks by kicking or punching or armor spikes or whatever.

What you COULD do though is this:

Say your BAB is +11. You could swing twice with your Elven Curve Blade and kick once. That nets you no additional attacks and does not violate any rules.

It is less optimal, more than likely, than just swinging your ECB a third time but it is legal.

But unless you have Improved Unarmed Combat that kick will cause an AoO from your enemy.


Byakko wrote:
graystone wrote:
Byakko wrote:
graystone wrote:
Wheldrake wrote:
if you have a third hand.
An actual 3rd arm (non-vestigial) gets you an extra attack through multiweapon fighting.

Actually, it doesn't...

Multiweapon fighting lowers the penalty for attacking with multiple weapons, but doesn't inherently give you additional attacks.

However, pretty much every creature with more than two arms has special rules which allow them to attack with all their arms. (but this isn't an automatic feature of possessing additional limbs)

Normal section of the multi-weapon fighting feat. "A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)" So it's normal that an extra arm grants an extra offhand. Note the "ALL it's off hands" part.

The 'special rules' for races are pretty much just a reiteration of what they already get. For instance, the Multi-Armed ability of the Kasathas does absolutely nothing after it gives you 4 arms as everything after that is what normally happens with extra arms. It's like elven/orc blood ability on a 1/2 elf/orc. The subtype already gives everything the ability said. It literally is a waste of ink that just restates what you can do.

Just because it lists a penalty for potential offhand attacks doesn't mean additional attacks are automatically granted.

Having additional limbs does not automatically grant you more attacks.

To reiterate, if Kasathas didn't have the Multi-Armed racial trait, they would only have one offhand attack despite having 4 arms (regardless of whether they have the Multiweapon Fighting feat).

To make this perfectly clear, if a human chooses to kick as their primary unarmed strike, can they then make two offhand attacks as their arms/hands have not been used yet?
No.

1) It's clear when you read the normal section of the feat that you are incorrect. "a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands" + "It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands." How can you have penalties on attacks you don't get?

If it worked like you think, the normal would say "a –10 penalty on attacks made with its off hand" since you think the normal says it gets only one.

2) Having additional ARMS does indeed grant extra off hand attacks. It's what the normal section says. Plural, multiple off hands.

3) To reiterate, a Kasathas' Multi-Armed racial trait does absolutely NOTHING other than grant 4 arms. The rest only reiterates what it could already do because it has 4 arms.

4) The human can't normally as it can only use two weapon fighting. If it can grow a true extra arm somehow then it has no problems making a primary kick and two off hand attacks (arms, headbutts, ect). Heck it could make a boulder helmet, armor spikes and a kick if it wished as it's off hand attacks don't have to correspond to it's actual/physical hands.

The normal section tells you how attacks with multiple weapons work and it automatically replaces part of the two weapon combat section when you have 3+ arms.

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