Detecting a succubus with change shape (su)


Advice


My group is shortly going to run into a succubus bound to a profaned temple, and I had a few questions about how they might determine that she is indeed a succubus. The group is level 7 and contains a sorcerer, a barbarian and a monk.

I'm considering giving the succubus a couple of cleric levels (thinking of something along the lines of this), and that she is permanently in the shape of a female human (using Change Shape). She's not designed as a combat encounter, rather she wants the group to break the binding holding her, with an ultimate intention to infiltrate a nearby city and gain power (inspired partly by the Sisters' Market). She will try to avoid displaying her true nature at all costs, and will try to convince the group to help her with words rather than any of her abilities.

Does the change shape spell result in a continuing aura of transmutation that is detectable by Detect magic?

Her dialogue will give the group an impression that she's not exactly what she seems, but are there any other mechanical ways (excluding sense motive's 'hunch' or a good arcana check) that they might work this out?

This is the first time I've looked into binding outsiders, and it seems that a permanent binding of a succubus to an area would be a relatively complicated procedure (a permanent magical circle against evil + dimensional anchor), and I'm not sure if a permanent magical circle laid out in silver underground would be a feasible thing, or if it would instantly obvious to someone with a magical background and detect magic. Any suggestions on how best to go about setting up that area/situations?


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The permanent magic circle vs. evil & dimensional anchor are obvious under detect magic. Sorry. Change shape 'functions as a polymorph spell' and the text for supernatural abilities doesn't say that it's not detected as magic, and that it is cancelled by antimagic field (so there is something magic there.)

Basically the succubus would have to rush them or have a really good lie handy ('I'm an angel, honest!' might not be enough for your PCs once they've identified the circle as being against evil.)


I am always foggy on this- could she hide her aura by wearing items with a transmutation aura, or would people perceive them as separate?

If you can use items, then just give her a nice transmutation cloak or clothes. The should cover enough to confuse things (if they can be confused)

The cloak of the hedge wizard with a transmutation focus is a fairly innocent item (gives prestidigitation at will, as well at will mage hand and 1/day of enlarge person and expeditious retreat). Since it gives useful noncleric spells, it is a fairly simple excuse to write off. It is also relatively cheap (as far as magic items go), so that shouldn't arouse suspicion either.


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Well, let me ask you a question then... Do you *want* her to be found out as a part of the story? Or are you just trying to cover your bases in case the players are interested?

I mean a sorcerer, barbarian, and monk... There's nothing in there that says 'gotta find the evils and smashes it' like having a cleric or pali in the party does. Also don't know their alignment or motivations.

Whatever you do though, don't let the monk grapple her. There have been... discussions of what happens when you grapple Succubi.

Heh. Honestly though, if you want them to find out, you can always leave bits of clues. If the circles under the ground, have some surreptitious bits of broken floor in a corner out of sight that you can see the circle clearly on for the sorc to identify. (Don't forget, magic auras are LoS, so if there's stone in between the spell and you, you don't see anything). You could also have her behavior just be a bit out of place for the cleric she's emulating, requiring a religion check from the monk. Perhaps she left interesting non-human tracks in areas of the church the barbarian can compare using K: Nature.
Perhaps while poking around, one of them finds a secret passage to the basement... where her summoning circle is. Who knows?

Or... if it's really not critical they find out, just let it run however it runs and if they don't realize it, then *shrug* and have her ready to give them grief (or a reward) when you make them encounter her later.

... Just a few thoughts.


rungok wrote:
Well, let me ask you a question then... Do you *want* her to be found out as a part of the story? Or are you just trying to cover your bases in case the players are interested?

Some interesting tidbits in there, in particular the line of sight nature of Auras - I'd always assumed they permeated most materials (except perhaps solid walls of stone or earth). The fact that it can be blocked by obscuring vision is very interesting indeed.

I would at this stage prefer that they don't discover her, but would like to be prepared in case they do. She's not after conflict, so unless they seriously piss her off she won't try to kill them (as I feel like it'll be a hard encounter given they are only three of them).

Mmm, I am aware of the particular difficulties of grappling Succubi...

I'm planning to throw a couple of babau in the area as well, in order make the discovery of things like summoning rings a little less obvious.

avr wrote:
The permanent magic circle vs. evil & dimensional anchor are obvious under detect magic. Sorry. Change shape 'functions as a polymorph spell' and the text for supernatural abilities doesn't say that it's not detected as magic, and that it is cancelled by antimagic field (so there is something magic there.)

Thanks for the clarifications on those ones, I'll have a think about different ways of approaching it then.

Liberty's Edge

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In terms of Magic Circle, you could always have it be a Magic Circle Against Chaos.

That works just as well, and won't trip as many alarms in players' heads.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

In terms of Magic Circle, you could always have it be a Magic Circle Against Chaos.

That works just as well, and won't trip as many alarms in players' heads.

If I saw a plain old humanoid trapped in a dimensional anchor'd magic circle against *anything* the first thing I would do is demand the trapped outsider change to their true form. I would be extremely skeptical of any claims that they aren't using change shape or similar.

It isn't such a dead giveaway as circle/evil, but the mere presence of a binding circle gives away the fact that the entity within is almost certainly an outsider. Narrowing it down to chaotic outsiders leaves you with beings that are usually happy to reveal their true form in order to prove their good intentions (CG), beings that probably won't care (CN), or beings that will probably not reveal their true form because most adventurers don't willingly release trapped Infernals or similar (CE). I wouldn't trust the being at all if I didn't know what it was.

The OP may also want to look into Binding. You might be able to make that work for you. It is difficult to break the spell, however, so you may need to introduce a maguffin to help break the spell.

Sczarni

I would expect that your party won't be convinced by her lies, no matter how good they are. Expect the unexpected.


Why use the binding rules? Use something like Geas instead to make her "stuck" in place and unable to plan an escape without becoming weakened. None of the blantently obvious tools of the trade for binding required. Having it cast by a much higher level caster means she would have trouble finding someone to remove it etc.

Have it be punishment for trying to take advantage of said caster, so she is stuck in that location, unable to think about leaving or being humbled without the spell kicking in. Sure she could leave or scheme but every day she does she takes a -3 to every stat (up to -12) which would leave her very vulnerable (Str 13, Dex 17, Wis 14). This could give you some leeway on character interaction that you are looking for.

Young woman basically cursed to be stuck there? What hero would not want to help?

Shadow Lodge

Misdirection can mask the magic aura from her Change Shape, though the person detecting magic gets a will save.


Don't put the binding circle on the floor. Or under it. So much as a single stone can break the circle, let alone burying it. Put the circle in the ceiling, she can always explain that it was meant to keep evil out as the faithful huddled beneath it for protection.


avr wrote:

The permanent magic circle vs. evil & dimensional anchor are obvious under detect magic. Sorry. Change shape 'functions as a polymorph spell' and the text for supernatural abilities doesn't say that it's not detected as magic, and that it is cancelled by antimagic field (so there is something magic there.)

Basically the succubus would have to rush them or have a really good lie handy ('I'm an angel, honest!' might not be enough for your PCs once they've identified the circle as being against evil.)

A succubus would be a VERY good liar. Her magic aura could be explained away by saying she's a sorceress or something. There has to be some way for a creature to mask its aura of evil, and even if there is, she should be able to invent some kind of lie about to explain that. Maybe she was held prisoner in the temple for a long time and so the evil taint has rubbed off on her or something.

Anyway, it seems plausible to me that you should be able to present the succubus to the party as a grateful or penitent damsel in distress whose life and soul needs saving. Succubi can grant inspirational boons to the characters as an inducement. Immediately after being rescued, she might do other favors for the party. Most PCs do a very bad job at courtly roleplaying: she might act as the party's face in certain situations, at least initially.

Shadow Lodge

Change shape is a supernatural ability. Do a search on supernatural abilities and detect magic and you get... a lot of debate as it seems an undefined area in the rules. I'd personally say no, su abilities don't produce magic auras.

Another thing to keep in mind: All polymorphing does is give a circumstance bonus to your disguise check. Anyone rolling a high enough perception can see through it. It's a decent bonus, but high perception characters could certainly have a chance to see through to the creatures true form.
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks.

Liberty's Edge

gnoams wrote:
Change shape is a supernatural ability. Do a search on supernatural abilities and detect magic and you get... a lot of debate as it seems an undefined area in the rules. I'd personally say no, su abilities don't produce magic auras.

I'd be inclined to say they do, but not one detectable as any particular sort of magic.

gnoams wrote:
Another thing to keep in mind: All polymorphing does is give a circumstance bonus to your disguise check. Anyone rolling a high enough perception can see through it. It's a decent bonus, but high perception characters could certainly have a chance to see through to the creatures true form.

That does give the succubus a +29, and if she's been trapped a while, she could've taken 20 on her Disguise check. So...DC 49 to see through is pretty reasonable. And almost impossible to see through for most parties who encounter a baseline succubus (ie: level 8 or so at most).


gnoams wrote:
Change shape is a supernatural ability. Do a search on supernatural abilities and detect magic and you get... a lot of debate as it seems an undefined area in the rules. I'd personally say no, su abilities don't produce magic auras.

The problem with this line of argument here is that change shape is very specific in that it functions as a polymorph spell, and is specific on what parts it disregards. As it is magical it will detect to detect magic and since it functions as a specific subschool will detect as such.

Another question is why the succubus is trapped where it is trapped. If I specifically trap an outsider somewhere I tend to make it pretty freaking obvious and put warnings up on not messing with it/freeing it.

Such things are not perfect of course but a consideration of the surroundings is definitely in order.


Malag wrote:
I would expect that your party won't be convinced by her lies, no matter how good they are. Expect the unexpected.

I don't expect the players to be convinced, but the characters are likely to be given the succubus' bluff, disguise and diplomacy scores. But yes, there's always the possibility of a 20.

Skylancer4 wrote:
Have it be punishment for trying to take advantage of said caster, so she is stuck in that location, unable to think about leaving or being humbled without the spell kicking in. Sure she could leave or scheme but every day she does she takes a -3 to every stat (up to -12) which would leave her very vulnerable (Str 13, Dex 17, Wis 14). This could give you some leeway on character interaction that you are looking for.p

I love this suggestion and had not considered a geas at all. The only issue would be that the party at this stage probably wouldn't be able to break a geas (unless the geas is specifically something they can help her achieve).

Weirdo wrote:
Misdirection can mask the magic aura from her Change Shape, though the person detecting magic gets a will save.

Will definitely consider this, especially as the party may be combat at some point and thus noticing her hiding behind them casting a spell may be less obvious (in the face of a howling babau, that is).

Will be giving greater thought to why she's trapped there and whether or not the group would be all that uncomfortable by knowing that she's a succubus. While they are mostly good, that alone won't make them want to get rid of her. I just like the idea of a big reveal a while later...


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The geas was just an alternative seeing as you were having issues with your idea. There are always "other ways" to do things, as a player most of them aren't worth doing due to the required hoops and investment. As a GM that really isn't an issue. Yeah it's nice to dot your "i's" and cross your "t's" BUT the majority of the time your players aren't going to get into the nitty gritty of it. As long as it is plausible and works without disrupting things (too much out of the ordinary), that is all they need to work with it. As long as it seems like it is following the "rules" and you aren't stammering trying to come up for reasons if an odd question comes up, the game moves smoothly on. If you have an idea for an encounter (or more) you don't need a 20 page back story to justify it and it is often wasted on the the PC's.

One of the first times we ran an AP, the person running it was amazed at the amount of info on the "behind the scenes" and after the 3rd book, she commented on how much of it we didn't know or even looked into lol. Not that we were all hack and slash, but we just ended up bumbling by some breadcrumbs or went an entirely different way then intended, etc. Stuff that happens regularly in games. You just need to flesh it out enough that it works for the story and makes some sense when given a look over, as long as you have that you can typically field questions as needed on the spot. And that allows you to focus more on the rest of the story. Just my 2 cents ;)

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