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Pricing Mithral Armor for Unusual Creatures


Rules Questions

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Lune wrote:
So was this ruled on? You'd think they would put it in the thread if they did.

This one hasn't been FAQ'd yet. Just that we have no promises on when this item reaches the top of the queue, But, since January, the PDT has been issuing FAQs again. So at least you can hope for an answer instead of knowing no FAQs for a month.


I'm not sure why you thought I was talking about anything other than what this thread topic is but to be clear the purpose of my post is that I am still looking for clarification on this topic.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's been a while since this thread was last touched, but last night one of our PFS GMs ruled that Mithral Armor for a large-sized creature received the large-sized multiplier, based on the existence of a (very, very expensive) huge-sized Mithral Breastplate that was printed on a Chronicle.

That ballooned the price of large-sized Mithral Kikko Barding from +4000gp to +16000gp.

I can't blame him for ruling that way. There is no real guidance currently in any other sourcebook, so the Chronicle is the best evidence out there, for him.


It's way to bad that FAQs have seemingly gone from low priority to no priority ;)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Thanksgiving Xmas, Starfinder, and New Years. Not much supposed to get done this time of year.


The flow has been slowed down since Pathcon. Starfinder is the only thing that could cause for that long. But even then, that's exactly what I said. It went from low priority of getting 1 a week, to no priority of not needing even one a month.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Bumping this to see if there is any directions to be given.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Wow. 176 hits? This has got to be towards the top of the queue by now.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

1 person marked this as a favorite.

178 now!

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:

Thank you!

For the record, this FAQ request wouldn't just be for Mithral. Here's a list of all the special materials that are priced by armor type:

Good list, but Paizo site cut off the one I wanted to clarify. Gold, the special material has two costs, one of the Gold Plated and the other for pure Gold weapons and armor. It's smushed into a misleading single paragraph that makes it appear as if there's only one entry for Gold items.

Gold Plating is 3x base price and has the same properties as the item would normally have (as in, no weight increase, no hardness decrease, and so forth). As far as I can tell, the only advantage here is the appearance of the armor, as it doesn't "do" anything other than increase the cost.

[Pure] Gold items are 10x base price and +50% weight. Gold Weapons have half normal hardness, Gold Armor has Hardness 5. Gold Armor has 2 less AC and increases armor check by 2. Gold weapons are Fragile, while Gold Armor is not. Gold Light Piercing or Slashing weapons take -2 on damage rolls.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

personally I think this one is rather clear. The size adjustment is a scalar applied to costs on medium sized items (which includes special materials to make those medium sized items). Special material cost adjustments are for medium sized equipment (as medium size is the assumed size).

It is a simple rule and done for rough simplicity rather than accuracy. It is up to a home game GM to change the rules to a workload and per pound basis for materials if they want something more accurate and precise.

Personally I can see adding the cost modifier at the end as the benefit is static (but you are covering roughly 4 times the area but the weight doubled...) from a game mechanics point of view, but that isn't how the rule reads. This has been an issue for years(pre-Paizo)... and it's been left in the GMs lap for years.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Apparently this is still a thing that needs answering?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yep. Been watching this one for myself for years hoping for clarification.

Azothath: Your interpretation is great for home games. No so good for PFS where table variation is an issue.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Weirdo wrote:
Apparently this is still a thing that needs answering?

Maybe it'll be covered in Starfinder =)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Apparently this is still a thing that needs answering?
Maybe it'll be covered in Starfinder =)

Or in the Armory 2. It see a good topic for a booklet on equipment, while it is too long for a FAQ.


if large and larger ranged weapons don't get range increment increases and small and smaller ranged weapons don't get range increment decreases i don't see a problem with special materials not changing cost based on size either


Lady-J wrote:
if large and larger ranged weapons don't get range increment increases and small and smaller ranged weapons don't get range increment decreases i don't see a problem with special materials not changing cost based on size either

Honestly sizing in general needs to be redone from top to bottom. The world is built around medium making it so that as you point out range doesn't change for being larger or smaller, spells don't scale making AoEs for tiny and smaller WMDs and for huge and larger more like dodgeball.


Talonhawke wrote:
Honestly sizing in general needs to be redone from top to bottom. The world is built around medium making it so that as you point out range doesn't change for being larger or smaller, spells don't scale making AoEs for tiny and smaller WMDs and for huge and larger more like dodgeball.

Those all sound like good things. I don't think it would be a better game if halfling ranged attackers could only attack half as far or if gnome sorcerers fired tiny fireballs.


Well i don't think going to that extreme would be the case in fact small-large the same sizing should still be fine for the most part. But when you suddenly get to tiny and they or huge and the ranged weapons have no difference other than damage. Or their versions of spells work on drastically different scales vs their sizes it gets odd. I like the internal consistency to be sure but it still hits me the same way that because armor just makes you harder to hit that colossal creatures thick hides don't actually do anything to stop weapons that shouldn't be able to penetrate at all.

Scarab Sages

Think about this... diminutive creature with alchemist levels using bombs...bombs are not modified by size


Lorewalker wrote:
Think about this... diminutive creature with alchemist levels using bombs...bombs are not modified by size

I know....from a mechanics standpoint I understand the need to not have Giants flinging fireballs scaled up to 4 colossal sized square radius. But it still makes my head hurt at times.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

And this popped up again, this time on facebook in a PFS group.

Any chance on a indication for an answer to this?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

We're almost at 200 FAQ hits.

Maybe that means something?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

It would just be nice to know if they are close to a resolution.

I'd really like to know if I can keep my Mammoth's huge noqual fullplate (24150 gp), or if I'm going to have to turn into a medium sized +1 fitting noqual fullplate (21650 gp) which I can then fit onto the mammoth. Makes storing it even easier, as it'll turn back to medium sized as soon as I take it off her.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Answered in FAQ.

FAQ wrote:
Cost Multipliers for Items: When an item has a cost multiplier, for instance for its size, unusual shape, or composition, does that apply before or after additional costs such as for making the item masterwork or using a special material?First add up the total cost of the base item, including any special material. Then multiply by any multiplier for the size and unusual shape from Table 6-8. After that, add any additional cost for masterwork, if that isn't already part of the special material. Finally, apply any multiplier for discounts such as the 1/3 cost multiplier for crafting the item. For example, a chain shirt costs 100 gp and a mithral chain shirt costs 1,100 gp after the +1,000 gp cost for mithral. If you were applying the 1/3 cost multiplier for crafting the item using the Craft skill, the cost multiplier from Table 6-8 based on size and body type, or both, you would apply those multipliers to the full 1,100 gp cost for the mithral chain shirt. This means a mithral chain shirt built for a rune giant costs 8,800 gp and a mithral chain shirt built for the tarrasque costs 35,200 gp. On the other hand, a Large masterwork cold iron greatsword costs 550 gp (50 gp for a greatsword, doubled for cold iron, doubled again for a Large weapon, then adding masterwork last because cold iron isn't always masterwork).


WOO for FAQ Tuesday!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I am very glad to finally have an official answer to this.

I am also very sad that an agile mithral breastplate for a horse now costs 17600g despite weighing, and presumably taking up the same amount of mithral as a mithral chain shirt for the same horse that costs 4400g.


booooooooo


3 people marked this as a favorite.

So here's what's super funny about this. Let's say you want medium Mithral full plate normally 10,500gp.
Buy tiny mithral full plate 5,250gp and put fitting on it for 2,000gp.
Now a medium person can wear the full plate making it medium mithral full plate +1 for 8,250gp, cheaper than a normal suit would cost!
This plan is even better the larger you are.
This means a mithral full plate for a rune giant that would normally cost 84,000gp is only 8,250gp. That's over a 90% discount!


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:

So here's what's super funny about this. Let's say you want medium Mithral full plate normally 10,500gp.

Buy tiny mithral full plate 5,250gp and put fitting on it for 2,000gp.
Now a medium person can wear the full plate making it medium mithral full plate +1 for 8,250gp, cheaper than a normal suit would cost!

All this tells me is that fitting is extremely undercosted in light of this new FAQ. Great for PFS though, as it lets you get cheaper armor. (Now that I look at it, I think fitting is undercosted even before this FAQ; it still comes out better to make a tiny fitting item even if you applied the multiplier first for the more expensive items. Using multipliers first before adding: tiny mithral fitting fullplate is 11750gp, large mithral fullplate is 12000gp, huge mithral fullplate is 15000gp, etc. -- it only doesn't come out ahead if you go small or medium.)

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm just happy to have an answer. Even if it goes against the way I interpreted the rules.

Thank you, PDT.

*starts the arduous task of adjusting all of his PFS companions*


Can fitting be applied to barding?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

That's ouch.

Guess I'm going to be using the fitting enchantment to keep my mammoth in her noqual fullplate.


Chess Pwn wrote:

So here's what's super funny about this. Let's say you want medium Mithral full plate normally 10,500gp.

Buy tiny mithral full plate 5,250gp and put fitting on it for 2,000gp.
Now a medium person can wear the full plate making it medium mithral full plate +1 for 8,250gp, cheaper than a normal suit would cost!
This plan is even better the larger you are.
This means a mithral full plate for a rune giant that would normally cost 84,000gp is only 8,250gp. That's over a 90% discount!

Super-happy with this. This just made the price for 'normal' characters cheaper!!! And it made barding cheaper!!! [+2000 for tiny vs x4 cost for large]

Nefreet wrote:
I'm just happy to have an answer. Even if it goes against the way I interpreted the rules.

Yep, I never would have ruled this way but I'm more than happy to pay less for my equipment: it just means that ANY mithral/adamantine armor/barding bought will be tiny +1 fitting. This also make carrying an extra suit of armor/barding more viable.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ugh. One of my PFS characters wields a large-sized Adamantine Bastard Sword. He'll probably have to fork over another 3000gp before he can use it again.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Weapons aren't left out, either!. Feel free to buy your tiny-sized toothpick and wield it like a hero.
(though this doesn't help if you actively do wield weapons of a size greater than yourself, such as through Titan Mauler.)

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
so question, where does masterwork fit in? Is that a before multiplier or after?

Masterwork is now prior to multiplier, according to the FAQ.


Saethori wrote:

Weapons aren't left out, either!. Feel free to buy your tiny-sized toothpick and wield it like a hero.

(though this doesn't help if you actively do wield weapons of a size greater than yourself, such as through Titan Mauler.)

It doesn't matter much as the only weapons with costs are small, medium and large. It's cool you can make other sizes usable, but you have no way to figure out how to make them.

Liberty's Edge

Quick PFS fact check... can I buy tiny armor? The cost is indeed listed in the CRB and in the Guide I believe the Small/Medium/Large clause is what's always available and with the right amount of fame I can buy tiny armor... is this correct?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Note that a Campaign Clarification for fitting is already in the works. Most likely, you'll only be able to get such armor at your character's default size.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
Note that a Campaign Clarification for fitting is already in the works. Most likely, you'll only be able to get such armor at your character's default size.

UGH. right cause the thing we need with a nerf is another nerf. Of course.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Druids local 704 is optimistic about the possibility of keeping fitting legal for your little bundle of joy for when they make their grown spurt.

Armor early and armor often.


Chess Pwn wrote:
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
Note that a Campaign Clarification for fitting is already in the works. Most likely, you'll only be able to get such armor at your character's default size.
UGH. right cause the thing we need with a nerf is another nerf. Of course.

that's generally what paizo does when there's a nerf incoming they just swing the nerf bat around and nerf a whole bunch of stuff which generally impacts other things that they have already nerfed


GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
Note that a Campaign Clarification for fitting is already in the works. Most likely, you'll only be able to get such armor at your character's default size.

What would be the point of the enchant if doesn't work on armor not your size?


graystone wrote:
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
Note that a Campaign Clarification for fitting is already in the works. Most likely, you'll only be able to get such armor at your character's default size.
What would be the point of the enchant if doesn't work on armor not your size?

so a druid can buy medium armor and then wildshape into something large and put the armor on.

Personally I feel that if the PDT didn't want "some loophole" to break their rule they should have made a non-exploitable rule, like saying only the base price gets modified. That way there's no real reason to try and find a way around an oppressive rule.


Chess Pwn wrote:
so a druid can buy medium armor and then wildshape into something large and put the armor on.

That's quite niche... And is this meant as a PFS rule? I can't see a general pathfinder rule that it's forbidden to buy armor not your size.

Chess Pwn wrote:
Personally I feel that if the PDT didn't want "some loophole" to break their rule they should have made a non-exploitable rule, like saying only the base price gets modified. That way there's no real reason to try and find a way around an oppressive rule.

I'm right there with you. IMO, this enchant shows how... skewed the ruling is when a simple enchant now saves you 70,000+gp.

PS: there is also Resize Item + permanency. Or a Ring of Perfect Sizing.


graystone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
so a druid can buy medium armor and then wildshape into something large and put the armor on.

That's quite niche... And is this meant as a PFS rule? I can't see a general pathfinder rule that it's forbidden to buy armor not your size.

Chess Pwn wrote:
Personally I feel that if the PDT didn't want "some loophole" to break their rule they should have made a non-exploitable rule, like saying only the base price gets modified. That way there's no real reason to try and find a way around an oppressive rule.

I'm right there with you. IMO, this enchant shows how... skewed the ruling is when a simple enchant now saves you 70,000+gp.

PS: there is also Resize Item + permanency. Or a Ring of Perfect Sizing.

yeah, this is something PFS is thinking of implement so people can't use "a very inexpensive backdoor to circumvent the FAQ and design team altogether. "


So 'Fitting' is an additional cost, or are SOME flat costs applied BEFORE and others AFTER multiplication?

Masterwork costs are multiplied?

Urgh wut?


Chess Pwn wrote:
yeah, this is something PFS is thinking of implement so people can't use "a very inexpensive backdoor to circumvent the FAQ and design team altogether. "

Ok, that makes more sense. It sucks for PFS people but at least the damage is contained there.

Shifty: Fitting is after basic enchanting +1: as such, no multiplication. Masterwork is part of basic creation, so multiplied. Not sure what happens if it's added after creation but I'd guess it's multiplied.

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