| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That part I don't buy. Lots of people in the hobby are excited by the OGL, but I don't see how it translates directly to business success.
It took a long time for PF to surpass 4E, despite 4E not having an OGL. Arguably it only did so as 4E was shutting down.
5E is not likely to challenge PF in total sales after the initial Core spike passes because they're not putting out as many books. That would continue to be true if there was an OGL - at least as far as WotC sales and thus revenue go.
Would more (non-revenue generating) 3pp material drive more Core purchases? Maybe. Enough to matter? Maybe. Enough more to give up whatever control they have left over their IP? Much harder to say.
I don't think an OGL necessarily translates into success any more than a more restrictive license - however - there are fantastic things that a less-restrictive license can bring.
1) Story - WotC has some reluctance to write adventures in large numbers and though they are clearly spending more effort with them now, 3rd party adventures can stoke the market through support of busy game masters
2) Utility - There are quite a few electronic tools out there for Pathfinder players and GMs that make my life easier at the game table. In some cases, they are rehashes of the rules but with differing organizational structures that make it easier for me to find and use the information I need - and without having to lug around the books. Those may not help Paizo's bottom line directly, but by making me a happier player and GM, it probably helps me be better disposed toward certain types of PF products.
Indeed. Anecdotal as it is, I've definitely noticed that the OGL helps encourage me to throw money at Paizo, because, in a weird way, I'm also excited about third party stuff that uses the same system (even when I rarely dip into that third party stuff directly...).
Not to stray too far off topic, but since so many smart people with more knowledge of the situation then I are here (not sarcasm) why is it that they've shied away from adventures since 2nd and first edition, honestly the only reason I discovered pathfinder was it was impossible to find 3rd edition adventures that started out at first level, just curious :-)
OTOH, they don't make money on licensing deals to produce adventures.
There are potential advantages, but there are disadvantages too.
It's not clear to me how much those benefits translate into sales of WotC products.
The OGL is far more complicated than an instant win button. Or for that matter a "must have in order to win" thing.
I never said it was sufficient condition to "win," merely that it was a necessary one. Which I believe it is. The relative unavailability of adventures can't be anything but bad for 5E. But that's just my opinion, and all that. :)
|
Not to stray too far off topic, but since so many smart people with more knowledge of the situation then I are here (not sarcasm) why is it that they've shied away from adventures since 2nd and first edition, honestly the only reason I discovered pathfinder was it was impossible to find 3rd edition adventures that started out at first level, just curious :-)
I don't know this for certain, but I'd have to imagine that either the creative forces didn't see a need, or the players didn't make the need known.
Considering that Paizo was a natural evolution from Dragon and Dungeon magazines, it might have been a happy accident that they formulated their plan to provide adventures that contained other information, as adventure paths do, given that they had already been doing that through Dungeon magazine primarily.
Although it does strike me curious to look back and see the dearth of modules.
|
Not to stray too far off topic, but since so many smart people with more knowledge of the situation then I are here (not sarcasm) why is it that they've shied away from adventures since 2nd and first edition, honestly the only reason I discovered pathfinder was it was impossible to find 3rd edition adventures that started out at first level, just curious :-)
Do they have Dungeon as a webzine as well as Dragon? I stopped following when it went out of print copy.
I like physical media. :(
|
Was it Return to Brookmere?I loved the choose your own adventure books they put out for dungeons and dragons, can't tell you how many times I tried to kill off the hero in those by making obviously stupid choices. ah, good timesI loved those also! My favorite had an elf protagonist and a bugbear with a good one liner when he did you in if you chose wrong. Can't remember the name, but it might have been the second or third in the series?
That's the one. :-)
But you haven't proved it was neccessary. OGL did not stop sales of WOTC's 3.X material from taking a deep hike south. People sarted buying 3rd party material to the exclusion of WOTC stuff. Paizo itself, keeps a lot of stuff off of it's SRD, including all setting-related material.
No, I haven't. I'm not sure how such a thing would even be possible. The thread title mentions "belief," after all.
I had that book growing up! IIRC there was a (very human-looking) bugbear with a battle axe...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I look at CCP/White Wolf, as cautionary tale.
I give Hasbro/Wizards credit simply for not being them. D&D actually STILL HAS books on shelves.
What makes you think any of those things are directives from Hasbro?As previously noted, the PDF announcement came directly from a Hasbro Executive.
And if you pay close attention to the thinks Wizards folks say ("we want to do a license!", it becomes rather clear that something is holding them back. It makes sense that this is Hasbro.
I think it's wotc management who's holding them back, not Hasbro. From what I've heard, wotc management is rather poor in many ways.
The PDF-debate I've been able to find (as recently linked in that other thread, for example) was all wizards of the coast press releases and commentary. Are you sure it was a Hasbro exec?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not to stray too far off topic, but since so many smart people with more knowledge of the situation then I are here (not sarcasm) why is it that they've shied away from adventures since 2nd and first edition, honestly the only reason I discovered pathfinder was it was impossible to find 3rd edition adventures that started out at first level, just curious :-)
I believe the argument goes "DMs buy adventures, players and DMs buy splatbooks, players outnumber DMs buy three to one, therefore there's more money to be made out of splatbooks than adventures".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think it's wotc management who's holding them back, not Hasbro. From what I've heard, wotc management is rather poor in many ways.
I believe current WotC CEO Greg Leeds was a transplant from Hasbro. Sent to promulgate Hasbro culture in WotC management?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks guys, all this happened during my 17+ years away, it's super enlightening learning it :-)
Keep it coming :-)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Argh hate typing on my phone! It always comes out sounding like English is a smurfin' second language
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wizards of the Coast purchased TSR (and thus, D&D) in 1997. Hasbro purchased Wizards of the Coast in 1998. 2 years later, they released the 3rd edition of D&D.
How long they had been working on 3rd edition before the buyout, I don't know. But the supposed greatest edition of D&D was released under a Hasbro-owned Wizards of the Coast, which spawned Pathfinder.
Do I blame Hasbro for D&D's current state? In a way. Hasbro is more concerned about the D&D brand name, and not so much the game all of us think of when someone says "Dungeons and Dragons". I don't think this is ultimately a good thing to do. When someone says "D&D", an image springs instantly to mind, which is typically a not so great image. Just look at D&D in tv shows. Big Bang Theory has it sometimes, Dexter's Lab had an episode, I believe Community did as well, among many others. Hell, the stereotype around here is still "fat disgusting neckbeards who don't shower and dwell in their mother's basement eating cheetohs and chugging mountain dew", and people here play it (I include Pathfinder in this).
D&D video games have been alright. The movies have been atrocious, and I don't see them pulling something good out of their ass on that front. I have never seen the boardgames (or anyone say anything good or bad about them), and Attack Wing I heard was fun but no one wants to play it. I admit the last 2 are from this tiny town I live in, and the first 2 are personal experience. The corporate guy that gave the interview posted in a previous thread said they want to expand the brand to movies and tv shows. That's all well and good if Hasbro would be a lot more generous in the funding department for such things. You won't get Lord of the Rings quality movies, nor Game of Thrones quality tv shows on a SyFy made-for-tv-movie budget. Even a number of those have been superior to any visual media D&D product. Should I bring up the Dragons of Autumn Twilight animated movie? One of the most loved trilogies was crapped upon because Hasbro would rather cut corners.
I love 5th edition, and as I have said many times, it is the best edition WotC has produced. But the way it is being handled makes me sad. I am sure a number of Pathfinder fans would feel the same if Paizo cut their production to 150 pages of adventures per year, and focused all of their attention upon video games, card games, board games, and an Attack Wing-esque game. But that's what fans of 5th edition have to put up with, and it doesn't look like it will change in the near future.
I believe current WotC CEO Greg Leeds was a transplant from Hasbro. Sent to promulgate Hasbro culture in WotC management?
I think it's wotc management who's holding them back, not Hasbro. From what I've heard, wotc management is rather poor in many ways.
I hadn't heard that, cheers. That's at least a connection.
The whole "big bad megacorporation" thing seems too easy and unjustified, to me given D&D's trivial standing in Hasbro's stable of brands. If they're knocking on WotC's door demanding "two story lines and nothing else" how much effort are they putting into brands that are actually significant revenue streams?
I don't see why the blame for any mismanagement of D&D shouldn't be laid at the feet of Wizards' management (they seem disconnected enough from the hobby. I don't see any need to invoke a higher corporate villain).
No matter the company, in comes down to degrees of separation from a game's creative staff, and people running the company.
Piazo continues to do well, because the folks running the company are literally as passionate of gamers, as the their customers.
I'm sure the heads of Hasbro (whom the WOTC staff have to wait for a green light from in all things), have never played D&D in their lives. I'm betting their whole approach to 5e was, "Make it sell better than 4th", without caring enough to want to know why 4th failed. The WOTC staff gets it, but they're working under suits, who are wary to invest too much in brand that didn't preform as well as hoped last time around.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
One thing you have to realize about the OGL is that while it resulted in a huge renaissance in TTRPGs as a whole, it also looks like a stunningly bad strategy in hindsight. How much market share did WotC lose to Paizo as a result of the OGL? If you're the WotC guy trying to pitch a 5E OGL to his boss, that boss is going to ask if maybe you'd like to go ahead and give Lisa Stevens the whole company while you're at it. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Never mind that there are plenty of reasons WotC lost market share--customer satisfaction being at the top of that list--your typical exec is going to see the OGL as a market leader's growth strategy that failed.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One thing you have to realize about the OGL is that while it resulted in a huge renaissance in TTRPGs as a whole, it also looks like a stunningly bad strategy in hindsight. How much market share did WotC lose to Paizo as a result of the OGL? If you're the WotC guy trying to pitch a 5E OGL to his boss, that boss is going to ask if maybe you'd like to go ahead and give Lisa Stevens the whole company while you're at it. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Never mind that there are plenty of reasons WotC lost market share--customer satisfaction being at the top of that list--your typical exec is going to see the OGL as a market leader's growth strategy that failed.
If only that were to happen :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing you have to realize about the OGL is that while it resulted in a huge renaissance in TTRPGs as a whole, it also looks like a stunningly bad strategy in hindsight. How much market share did WotC lose to Paizo as a result of the OGL? If you're the WotC guy trying to pitch a 5E OGL to his boss, that boss is going to ask if maybe you'd like to go ahead and give Lisa Stevens the whole company while you're at it. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Never mind that there are plenty of reasons WotC lost market share--customer satisfaction being at the top of that list--your typical exec is going to see the OGL as a market leader's growth strategy that failed.
There is no "doing the same thing," because the OGL cat is out of the bag. No matter what, you still have to compete with 3E WITH the OGL. Not OGLing your new system simply hobbles it.
Also, while the OGL was necessary for Pathfinder to exist, but it didn't cause Pathfinder to beat 4E. That fiasco (from WotC's point of view) came from the mis-managment of D&D -- exactly the bad management they're (apparently) still laboring under.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
More likely to fill in a gap from the retiring CEO.I believe current WotC CEO Greg Leeds was a transplant from Hasbro. Sent to promulgate Hasbro culture in WotC management?
I think it's wotc management who's holding them back, not Hasbro. From what I've heard, wotc management is rather poor in many ways.
If only those two things weren't mutually exclusive...
|
4E also did quite well, dominating the field for years, despite the nerdrage and growing competition from PF.
Yes, despite all the "We're number one!!!!" cheerleading from the Paizo Defense Force, they didn't really take that #1 slot until 4E had all but shut down production of new material. Which makes being #1 SUBSTANTIALLY less impressive.
These forums are chock-full of people who don't understand what the OGL is in the slightest. Many seem to consider it some sort of official seal of quality.
I've not encountered that at all. In fact, most people I interact with seem to be well aware of companies like FFG and the need to be discerning.
However, you get plenty of good with the bad. There are at least half a dozen companies making solid Pathfinder adventures via the OGL, whereas on the 5E side, Goodman is the only third party I know of making 5E adventures. Not releasing 5E under the OGL has had a chilling effect.
Many of 4E's ills were self-inflicted, but we're getting pretty far afield.
|
|
I believe the argument goes "DMs buy adventures, players and DMs buy splatbooks, players outnumber DMs buy three to one, therefore there's more money to be made out of splatbooks than adventures".Which is why during the waning years of 3.X, WOTC was cranking them out one per month.
1. Waning? By the time 3.5 was released, the splat production was in full overdrive.
2. One per month was a lowballed figure. It was probably more like an average of 2+ per month.|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wizards of the Coast purchased TSR (and thus, D&D) in 1997. Hasbro purchased Wizards of the Coast in 1998. 2 years later, they released the 3rd edition of D&D.
How long they had been working on 3rd edition before the buyout, I don't know. But the supposed greatest edition of D&D was released under a Hasbro-owned Wizards of the Coast
Hasbro invented time travel, and the only thing they did with it was publish AD&D?
|
|
There are at least half a dozen companies making solid Pathfinder adventures via the OGL, whereas on the 5E side, Goodman is the only third party I know of making 5E adventures.
You can add Rite Publishing, EN Publishing, and Frog God Games to that list, as well as a whole host of much smaller publishers.
Here is a list of 5E adventures available on DriveThruRPG. At least a dozen or so publishers represented there. That's JUST adventures, there are other publishers putting out other types of 5e products.
Also, while the OGL was necessary for Pathfinder to exist, but it didn't cause Pathfinder to beat 4E. That fiasco (from WotC's point of view) came from the mis-managment of D&D -- exactly the bad management they're (apparently) still laboring under.Did PF "beat" 4E? Pathfinder certainly thrived and grew, but IIRC according to the publicly available numbers, it only passed 4E when 4E was ramping down and they were starting work on 5E. I'd love to know that wasn't true.
I guess it depends on semantics.
Pathfinder achieved market leadership. I doubt that would have ever happened if 4E had been more successful, just as I doubt that 5E would have been developed as (relatively) soon as it was if 4E hadn't withered on the vine. Bill S. repeatedly spoke about 4E being aimed at the "next decade" of play; I seriously doubt they intended to kill it after only five years. Further, the length of "dead time" between 4E and 5E was quite long, another reason to believe it wasn't planned.
The point is, I think the game was WotC's to lose, and they lost it. Unfortunately, they seem to be repeating many of the 4E era mistakes (hostility toward digital formats, no OGL, etc.) with 5E. On the other hand, they seem to have a much more popular system on their hands this time around. I have no idea whether that will be enough, but given the light release schedule, I am inclined to believe that it won't be. Either way, it was within their power to do digital right with 5E, and they failed.
4E also did quite well, dominating the field for years, despite the nerdrage and growing competition from PF.Yes, despite all the "We're number one!!!!" cheerleading from the Paizo Defense Force, they didn't really take that #1 slot until 4E had all but shut down production of new material. Which makes being #1 SUBSTANTIALLY less impressive.
I only saw 4th edition being number 1 on IcV2 which doesn't say a whole lot to be honest. Paizo has it's own online store and sells PDF's. 4th edition did not so it's only common sense that they would sell more books in stores.
There are at least half a dozen companies making solid Pathfinder adventures via the OGL, whereas on the 5E side, Goodman is the only third party I know of making 5E adventures.You can add Rite Publishing and Frog God Games to that list, as well as a whole host of much smaller publishers.
You're correct. It appears that the lack of an OGL hasn't proven as ruinous as I had thought to third party publishers. Of course, then doesn't that also undermine the arguments against releasing 5E under the OGL?
To me, it is clear that WotC's problems are not due to the OGL, but to a host of unrelated, bone-headed decisions. The OGL simply made a convenient scapegoat. YMMV.
|
|
Did PF "beat" 4E? Pathfinder certainly thrived and grew, but IIRC according to the publicly available numbers, it only passed 4E when 4E was ramping down and they were starting work on 5E.
It'd be kind of like me running past Usain Bolt while he was opening his mailbox, and then celebrating that I had beat him in a race.
I believe gamers want to feel that a game is being actively supported and 5th edition just doesn't feel that way, well at least not to me.
|
|
You're correct. It appears that the lack of an OGL hasn't proven as ruinous as I had thought to third party publishers.
It's not exactly a giant leap. Editions prior to 3rd have had people publishing adventures for them since 2006 (when OSRIC first came out). None of those systems had the OGL. It's not a huge leap to use the same logic that allows retroclones, their supplements, and their adventures to legally exist to move forward to do the same for 5th edition as well.
Give it a little time, it's only been 8 months :-)
What do they have on tap for the summer, they just released an adventure that's reviewed well on Amazon :-)
Glad you're ecstatic. For myself, I still miss the old school Storyteller 'verse.I look at CCP/White Wolf, as cautionary tale.
I give Hasbro/Wizards credit simply for not being them. D&D actually STILL HAS books on shelves.
I still love the World of Darkness games. I'm just glad the Hasbro/Wizards marriage, has not been as sexless as CCP and White Wolf...