While I love the ninja class I there are a few small tidbits I wish were different.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


1. No evasion until lvl 10, and even then it takes your first advanced ninja trick:

The ninja's saves are horrible, only reflex is a good save for them and there is nothing wrong with that by itself. However no matter how good your reflex save is nearly everything that targets it deals half damage even upon success. Without evasion having a good reflex save just doesn't feel all that potent, so basically even when relying on my one good save I'm basically guaranteed to take damage with a good chance of failing my other saves. The only classes with good reflex saves that don't get evasion early either get another good save or have bigger hit die. Feeling pretty kinda gyped in this area. Also the class is NINJA. I feel like that is self explanatory.

2. Unarmed combat mastery is an advanced Ninja trick:

This scales with your level minus four, so it's not like if you got this ability earlier it would be over powered. Just change the description to your level minus four (minimum 1) and boom! The option for an unarmed ninja is suddenly much more accessible, and feels better at lower levels. I see no reason to restrict this ability until level 10.

3. The invisibility shenanigans:

First off, vanishing trick is a swift action, so if done right they can stay invisible indefinitely at any level from level 2 and on so long as you have the ki points to spend. A ninja can basically do most every combat with this little strategy. On your first turn go in and attack getting SA possibly, after your done swift action vanishing trick. (This allows you to be invisible until your next turn even though you attacked) Then just repeat the process till the fight is done or you run out of ki. With a decent charisma score you'll be destroying even the toughest enemies for your level single handedly by level two. This only gets worse once you get invisible blade.

I understand eventually a number of things will have an answer for invisibility, but for those that don't this is crazy. I don't know how I would change this or even if I'd give it to them at all. I don't like the idea of just being invisible all the time, I kinda wish they got something else than this, it just feels cheesy most of the time.


At least it isn't as bad as the base Rogue.


The only complaint on effectiveness I had really was not getting evasion quickly. The unarmed mastery tidbit was more looking at a conceptual notion of having an unarmed ninja, I also blatantly said I don't like the invisibility insanity which is a huge part of what makes them better than the rogue. (I think) I feel like you didn't even read the post as most of this was not a complaint on how effective they are, only the first bit was a minor complaint on their effectiveness.


I Think the invisibility is the trick they have that keep them in the game. With out it they are just rogues. I dont see how it Will allow them to destroy anything level appropiate. They get one sneek attack pr round with out flanking that is hardly over any top.
Yes bad saves suck and should be fixed. The unarmed stuff i Can see the point but i Think most ninjas that wanna use unarmed dip monk any Way.


Cap. Darling wrote:

I Think the invisibility is the trick they have that keep them in the game. With out it they are just rogues. I dont see how it Will allow them to destroy anything level appropiate. They get one sneek attack pr round with out flanking that is hardly over any top.

Yes bad saves suck and should be fixed. The unarmed stuff i Can see the point but i Think most ninjas that wanna use unarmed dip monk any Way.

The problem isn't the damage they deal when invisible, it's the fact that no one can hit them unless they specifically have an answer to invisibility, they may not deal a lot of damage per round but that can be quite a few rounds of virtually risk free attacks. I'm not even saying it is OP just kinda dull, plus I don't like the aesthetic of it.

Also on the unarmed stuff, you should know something is wrong with the way a class provides something if its better to take a small dip, than to take the option that your main class provides to get the exact same thing.


You've got a point Peasant.

Granted, you could probably manage fine as an Unarmed Ninja by taking IUS at low level and focusing on delivering sneak attack, then retrain that feat slot after acquiring the talent in question [if after playing without it you felt you needed it. By that time you might find you're happy with what you have and would rather spend that Trick on something else.]


noble peasant wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:

I Think the invisibility is the trick they have that keep them in the game. With out it they are just rogues. I dont see how it Will allow them to destroy anything level appropiate. They get one sneek attack pr round with out flanking that is hardly over any top.

Yes bad saves suck and should be fixed. The unarmed stuff i Can see the point but i Think most ninjas that wanna use unarmed dip monk any Way.

The problem isn't the damage they deal when invisible, it's the fact that no one can hit them unless they specifically have an answer to invisibility, they may not deal a lot of damage per round but that can be quite a few rounds of virtually risk free attacks. I'm not even saying it is OP just kinda dull, plus I don't like the aesthetic of it.

Also on the unarmed stuff, you should know something is wrong with the way a class provides something if its better to take a small dip, than to take the option that your main class provides to get the exact same thing.

I think the invisibility is neat and in good ninja style. And invisibility is not that good. And AOE is still at thing and as you know there is no evasion(unless you dip 2 monk levels;))

I dont have a issue with class dipping so i dont think it is problem to dip monk or swashbuckler to get a bunch of feats in a hurry.


I'm not averse to dipping and thats not what I have an issue with. What I don't like is that the class provides unarmed damage that scales with your level (-4), yet it's done in such a dumb way that it's generally speaking better/easier to get buffed unarmed damage, again, an ability your class provides, by dipping. Idk I just think that unarmed mastery being an advanced ninja trick is silly.


I have a few issues with Ninja myself.
The main one is I hate the fact that the Ki pool is based on Charisma. The whole idea of a Ninja is to blend in. I have been in PFS parties where I ended up being the face cause no one else had any Charisma and the only reason I had was because of Ki. That is uncomfortable for me as I designed it after Kato from "The Green Hornet." If I was building it I would put Ki based on Wisdom as it should be and then either make it a class feature or a Ninja Trick that you may use Wisdom for Disguise Self, and Bluff.


noble peasant wrote:

3. The invisibility shenanigans:

First off, vanishing trick is a swift action, so if done right they can stay invisible indefinitely at any level from level 2 and on so long as you have the ki points to spend. A ninja can basically do most every combat with this little strategy. On your first turn go in and attack getting SA possibly, after your done swift action vanishing trick. (This allows you to be invisible until your next turn even though you attacked) Then just repeat the process till the fight is done or you run out of ki. With a decent charisma score you'll be destroying even the toughest enemies for your level single handedly by level two. This only gets worse once you get invisible blade.

I understand eventually a number of things will have an answer for invisibility, but for those that don't this is crazy. I don't know how I would change this or even if I'd give it to them at all. I don't like the idea of just being invisible all the time, I kinda wish they got something else than this, it just feels cheesy most of the time.

This is incorrect. Level 1 commoner can us the Ready action to attack back with no penalty. This is true until an iterative attack comes on line at 6th+ level.

If you do this, then you give up your attacks of opportunity, because they break your invisibility.

Best us of Vanish is to avoid AoO as you move in to attack or escape.

The Invisible Blade is better, but at 10th+ level, the number of things that see invisible are significant. Good, yes. Great, not quite.

/cevah, with I.B. taken

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