Clarification regarding Monks / Brawlers, Power Attack and Dragon Style


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

So I have a question on the interaction of Power Attack and Dragon Style.

Please consider the following:

Based on the above:
Does a Monk's Unarmed Strike count as a Primary Natural Weapon, which is never defined?
If so, and a monk makes his first unarmed strike of the round using Dragon Style and thus at a 1.5 modifier, does he qualify for the increased damage from power attack?
Does the 1.5x strength bonus (1.0 + 0.5 = 1.5) allow a Monk to qualify for the increased damage from power attack?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:
Does a Monk's Unarmed Strike count as a Primary Natural Weapon, which is never defined?

No. A monk's unarmed strike is an unarmed strike. It is furthermore and IMPROVED unarmed strike due to his feat.

Scarab Sages

SlimGauge wrote:
B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:
Does a Monk's Unarmed Strike count as a Primary Natural Weapon, which is never defined?
No. A monk's unarmed strike is an unarmed strike. It is furthermore and IMPROVED unarmed strike due to his feat.

I'm pretty sure it's a natural weapon (See point 3) or at least is treated as one for spells and effects. The question or not is treated as "primary natural weapon" for the effects listed in Power Attack.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

It benefits from spells and effects that improve natural weapons, but it is NOT a "primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls". It would have to be that before modification by Dragon Style. If it was a primary natural weapon, Dragon Style would not modify it.


SlimGauge wrote:

It benefits from spells and effects that improve natural weapons, but it is NOT a "primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls". It would have to be that before modification by Dragon Style. If it was a primary natural weapon, Dragon Style would not modify it.

The Unarmed Strike counts as whichever is best for it. Which is why it benefits both from Magic Weapon and Magic Fang equally.

It is a Natural Weapon, a Manufactured Weapon, and both at the same time.

Hence why it can benefit from all number of effects.

Power Attack is an effect (Feats have long since been clarified to be effects). It affects Natural Attacks differently from manufactured weapons.

The Unarmed Strike counts as a natural weapon when it needs to.

Dragon Style makes the attack deal 1.5x Str damage.

Therefore, the Unarmed Strike gets the increased benefit of power attack, since it is a Natural Attack that deals 1.5x Str to damage.


"Primary" is defined--there's a listing of what is primary and what is not on the natural weapon chart. "Primary" is related to how the natural weapon is attacked with. Primary weapons have no attack penalty and deal full Str damage or 1.5x Str if it is the only natural attack you have.

Monk Unarmed Strikes do count as natural weapons, but do not count as primary or secondary because you never attack with them as natural weapons. Dragon Fury/Style absolutely does not interact with Power Attack.


My take on it. They do not count as primary or secondary natural weapons and power attack specifically calls out "primary" natural weapons/attacks. This may have been an oversight to not say if they count as secondary or primary, but as it stands they don't.

If an FAQ is put forth at best I see the monk getting power attack with the +3 damage per -1 penalty only on the first attack, but what I really expect is the +2 damage per -1 penalty to attack, for then entire round.


I'd say so - note though that dragon ferocity doesn't give 1.5 str to the rest of your flurry - it only adds a bonus = .5 str to your damage - which is different.


here is a thread on this same question with 189 posts. No official answer but Mark, as rogue eidolon, said it doesn't work. I would suggest reading the linked thread before posting more in this one.


Ckorik wrote:
I'd say so - note though that dragon ferocity doesn't give 1.5 str to the rest of your flurry - it only adds a bonus = .5 str to your damage - which is different.

Dragon Style: "Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round."

That is why dragon style was called out. The rest of the attacks get an additional strength bonus which is what you are referring to.

That is why I said it might be possible to get the extra damage on power attack on the first attack, but not for the rest of the attacks.

edit: However I also agree that unarmed strikes are not primary natural weapons.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:

My take on it. They do not count as primary or secondary natural weapons and power attack specifically calls out "primary" natural weapons/attacks. This may have been an oversight to not say if they count as secondary or primary, but as it stands they don't.

If an FAQ is put forth at best I see the monk getting power attack with the +3 damage per -1 penalty only on the first attack, but what I really expect is the +2 damage per -1 penalty to attack, for then entire round.

Dragon Ferocity grants the extra 0.5 strength bonus to the rest of your unarmed attacks in a given round.

I'm going to flip the thought around for a second.
Let's say I was a Tengu with the Claw Attack Trait (2x Claw Primary attacks).
If I took Feral Combat Training (Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.).
And I had Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity, I would be able to apply 1.5x Strength to both of my claw attacks right?
Would this tengu then qualify for the additional damage from Power Attack?

Scarab Sages

Ckorik wrote:
I'd say so - note though that dragon ferocity doesn't give 1.5 str to the rest of your flurry - it only adds a bonus = .5 str to your damage - which is different.

They FAQed this part at least.

FAQ: Dragon Ferocity and Tiger Claws: These feats both tell me to add 1/2 my Strength bonus to damage. How does that affect my damage? Does that reduce down to 1/2? wrote:
No, Dragon Ferocity should read "While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks" and Tiger Claws should read "If you use Power Attack in conjunction with this attack, increase your Strength bonus on one of the damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, normally to a total of 1-1/2 your Strength bonus." These changes will be reflected in future errata.


B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

My take on it. They do not count as primary or secondary natural weapons and power attack specifically calls out "primary" natural weapons/attacks. This may have been an oversight to not say if they count as secondary or primary, but as it stands they don't.

If an FAQ is put forth at best I see the monk getting power attack with the +3 damage per -1 penalty only on the first attack, but what I really expect is the +2 damage per -1 penalty to attack, for then entire round.

Dragon Ferocity grants the extra 0.5 strength bonus to the rest of your unarmed attacks in a given round.

I'm going to flip the thought around for a second.
Let's say I was a Tengu with the Claw Attack Trait (2x Claw Primary attacks).
If I took Feral Combat Training (Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.).
And I had Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity, I would be able to apply 1.5x Strength to both of my claw attacks right?
Would this tengu then qualify for the additional damage from Power Attack?

Dragon Feriocity is irrelevant to the conversation. It does not do the same thing as Dragon Style even if unarmed strikes were primary attacks.

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