RIP SMASH CRUSH. The pinnacle of weaponless fighting.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think I stumbled upon the ultimate route to making an unarmed/natural weapon damage dealer. Or at least a very good route. Very feat intensive, but yowza. I feel like someone could make a guide around this.

Assumptions: Dragon Ferocity does things. Specifically, it makes your unarmed strikes count at a 3:1 scale for power attack. Combined with Pummeling style, it also gives you 2x STR on every damage roll in the sequence. Horn of the Criosphinx provides a 2x STR again on charges. Most importantly, it all gets transferred to Natural Weapons via Feral Combat Training.

Feats:

1)Pummeling Style
2)Pummeling Charge
3) Dragon Style
4) Dragon Ferocity
5) Power Attack
6) Weapon Focus (Claws)
7) Feral Combat Training (Claws)
8) Multiattack
9)Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training)
10) Horn of the Criosphinx
11) TWF, etc.

Beyond that, it's all about getting as many boosts to STR as possible, because every point to your STR gets added 4 TIMES to your damage.

There is a lot of room for variation here, which I think largely comes down to when you want this to go online and race. Ironically, humans and fighters both suck at getting natural attacks but they are extremely effective choices for the concept because they gain so many feats, and Martial Versatility makes it so that the more Natural Attacks you gain, the more they factor into the crazy charge.

So you're at least going to dip into Mutation Warrior. One level nets you a feat. You need a lot of feats. It also nets you a mutagen. 4 levels nets you access to Martial Versatility. 5 nets you Weapons Training and hopefully Gloves of Dueling to boot. 7 gets you a Discovery. If you don't have Claws and Bite yet, Feral Mutagen is the obvious choice. Otherwise Wings let's you Pummeling Charge everything forever. Eventually you're going to get Greater and Grand Mutagen for moar strength. (NOTE: If Gloves of Dueling are off the table, Savage Warrior stacks with Mutation Warrior and provides some solid boons to CMB and charging. You like charging.)

Master of Many Styles 2 is probably going to be necessary to make this come to life early, as you can't get Flurry and want to skip pre-reqs for Pummeling Charge. Costs you a point of BAB, but you get so many extra attacks who cares if you get iteratives slower? It also means you get +3 to your saves and evasion, and odds are you're going to pump your DEX a bit so your reflex save is on point.

Finally, you want some RAAAAAGE. I think I favor the Bloodrager over the Barbarian for this. Abyssal Bloodrager gets claws at 1, and Enlarge Person as a free action at 4. That means +2 Strength AND reach. You can also trade in your level 4 or 8 power for 2 rage powers via Primalist. You also can get bonus feats, including Power Attack that ease the burden a bit. I like Fiend Totem for a gore attack, and Reckless for additional accuracy myself. Blood Conduit also you a free maneuver feat and the ability to channel spells through your fists as a free action. That's not necessary but it's nice.

Race: Human gets you access to Martial Versatility, but you can cheat that with Half-Orcs and Aasimar, both who have paths for natural weapons in race. Half-Orc is probably the best bet for early Bite Access.

Gear: Anything which boosts STR. Amulet of Mighty Fists (Keen being a great pick here because of Pummeling Style's Crit Combos. Add on Furious and Courageous if you're using Rage). Brawling Armor. Gloves of the Duelist.

Level Progression: Heavily depends, but this thing will be a solid martial way before it goes online. If you start Fighter or Barbarian you can always 2 Hand at level 1 and work your way up with the natural weapons. Once you get Dragon Style/Ferocity, Pummeling Style/Charge, and Power Attack, every punch you throw is getting crazy high damage. Every additional Natural Attack you add to that is basically gravy.

The math:

Let's go with Level 11 here. Half Orc, Mutation Warrior 5, MoMS 2, Bloodrager Abyssal 4. Forgive me if my WBL calculations suck, but I don't use that in my home games. Let's assume 20 strength after racial adjustments.

Belt of Giant Strength +4, Brawling Armor (+2), Gloves of Dueling (+2), Amulet of Mighty Fists (Ferocious +2), BAB +10, Enlarge Person (+2 STR, -1 Attack Rolls), Mutagen (+4 STR), Bloodrage (+4 STR), Weapons Training +1, Weapons Focus (+1 but only to claws)

34 STR = 12 STR Mod

28 to hit, 25 after Power Attack

Damage: 28+ 12 (Dragon Ferocity)+ 12 (Horn of the Criosphinx) +9 (Power Attack)

Full Attack:

Punch/Punch/Claw/Claw/Bite
+25/+20/+24/+24/+23
1d8+61/1d8+61/2d6+61/2d6+61/1d6+61

If every hit lands, you are doing 312 damage minimum. You're probably charging when you do this, so add +2 to hit. And it's one shot to bypass DR, and it all crits if one crits.

I don't think even the War Priest can touch this. What do you guys think? I feel like somebody may have already discovered this, but just in case they haven't...


Cross-posted from the other thread you left this in:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Apologies for the thread necromancy, but I think I stumbled upon the ultimate route to making an unarmed/natural weapon damage dealer. Or at least a very good route. Very feat intensive, but yowza.

Assumptions: Dragon Ferocity does things. Specifically, it makes your unarmed strikes count at a 3:1 scale for power attack. Combined with Pummeling style, it also gives you 2x STR on every damage roll in the sequence. Horn of the Criosphinx provides a 2x STR again on charges. Most importantly, it all gets transferred to Natural Weapons via Feral Combat Training.

Let's stop the train here: these don't stack like you think they stack.

We're going to put aside Pummeling Style/Dragon Style interactions, because they're very open to table variation. You could get 2x Str on every attack, or 2x for one and 1.5x for the others. The language is open.

Horn of the Criosphix + Dragon Style though?

Nope.

Horn says you get 2x times you Strength modifier. Dragon Style (+ Ferocity) says 2x your Strength modifier, then 1.5x. So you get... 2x. These bonuses explicitly do not stack together, per the FAQ regarding attribute bonuses (the same thing disabled Monk/Sacred Fist from getting 2x Wis-to-AC).

Also, your natural attacks would be secondary here. So they would only get half-Str anyway. And you need Feral Combat Training twice, if you want the Bite to benefit.

The best way to do this legally is, ironically enough...

Warpriest.

Master of Many Styles 2/Sacred Fist 18. Though Sacred Fist 20 can do it if you use Horn of the Criosphinx over Dragon Style-- depends on how confident you are that you can keep charge lanes open, ultimately.

Master 2 lets you run two styles at once, which is all you need. Sacred Fist provides Flurry, alongside better bonuses via buffs and more capabilities in general from Cleric magic. Get Dragon Style and Pummeling Style going and have at it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:

Cross-posted from the other thread you left this in:Let's stop the train here: these don't stack like you think they stack.

We're going to put aside Pummeling Style/Dragon Style interactions, because they're very open to table variation. You could get 2x Str on every attack, or 2x for one and 1.5x for the others. The language is open.

Yeah, I realize that, which is why I prefaced is as an assumption. Let's assume your table goes with it though, for the sake of theory crafting.

Quote:

Horn of the Criosphix + Dragon Style though?

Nope.

I think you are absolutely correct on this. So lop off 12 damage off every strike. Fair enough.

Quote:
Also, your natural attacks would be secondary here. So they would only get half-Str anyway.

Feral Combat training applies all my unarmed feats to my natural weapons. That should mean Dragon Ferocity and Dragon Style give them all 2x STR. (Again, assuming your table allows this interaction with Pummeling Style. But if they do, Feral Combat Training is pretty clear.)

Quote:
And you need Feral Combat Training twice, if you want the Bite to benefit.

Hence Fighter 4 for Martial Versatility. You get Feral Combat Training to apply to all your Natural Weapons, and you can hopefully pick up more.

Quote:

The best way to do this legally is, ironically enough...

Warpriest.

Master of Many Styles 2/Sacred Fist 18. Though Sacred Fist 20 can do it if you use Horn of the Criosphinx over Dragon Style-- depends on how confident you are that you can keep charge lanes open, ultimately.

Master 2 lets you run two styles at once, which is all you need. Sacred Fist provides Flurry, alongside better bonuses via buffs and more capabilities in general from Cleric magic. Get Dragon Style and Pummeling Style going and have at it.

While I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm very curious as to how that works out. I haven't used the War Priest itself but my early attempts at building them weren't super encouraging. They are good, mind you. And I've seen people present great numbers for them. But they don't seem to hit for 50+ damage a hit, and their iteratives have much steeper penalties to hit. They also need to APPLY their buffs, and with styles in play can get rather swift action starved. My build above needs at most 1 round of prep to get fully buffed, and mutagen's duration + Style Master mean you may walk into a fight ready to pounce. And the thing wrecks without mutagen, too.

Am I just massively underestimating their buffs?

(One factor: my table doesn't allow traits, so I haven't been able to get Fate's Favored for Divine Favor shenanigans.)

Thanks for taking the time to respond!


Attempting to use Feral Combat Training and Dragon Style to override the secondary natural attack rule will get... very iffy, very very fast.

I would be shocked to see a GM allow that one, frankly. Now, if you weren't using the unarmed strikes? Sure, Bite at 2x Str all day. But once they become secondary you have other rules in play that need to be dealt with.

Sacred Fist:

Using the same level eleven and one buff round, same equipment as much as it's applicable. Master of Many Styles 2/Sacred Fist 9:

Round one, activate styles (both, via Combat Style Master), cast Divine Favor (which is frankly on the weak end of your buffs, but it works).

Round two, Fervor out Channel Vigor and charge. Strength is a 24, using your numbers - Mutagen/Rage/Enlarge.

You hit at:

+10 BAB (Flurry baseline), +3 (Divine Favor), +1 (Channel Vigor emulating Haste), +7 (Str), +1 (Weapon Focus), +2 (Brawling armor; fun fact in that a Sacred Fist can legally Flurry in any armor), +3 (Amulet of Mighty Fists) -3 (Power Attack, taken with your 6th level Warpriest Bonus Feat from Human FCB), -various for Flurry.

= +24/+24/+24/+19/+19 [this is discounting charge bonuses, but good enough for our purposes]

Roughly comparable accuracy. Less money spent, as no Gloves of Dueling. Fair's fair, no reach for the Sacred Fist, but that's what Pummeling is for. Worth noting: next round, we can use a point of ki instead of Fervor to get a sixth attack, which will firmly put the Sacred Fist ahead.

Damage goes:

5.5 (1d10 for being an 11th level Monk) + 14 (Strx2) + 3 (Divine Favor) + 2 (Brawling) + 3 (Amulet of Mighty Fists), + 9 (Power Attack) = 36.5 per hit.

This is less than your setup, but doesn't require the loose rule interpretation of the whole secondary natural attacks/Dragon Style thing. I'm also not fully built here: using 15,000 less gold, for one. If nothing else, that means a Monk's Robe, which pushing each hit up by 3.5 damage to an average of 40 while still leaving 2k to spare. Realistically better options can be found.

On feats,the ones I used were: Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus feat), Pummeling Style (bonus feat), Pummeling Charge (bonus feat), Dragon Style (bonus feat), Power Attack (bonus feat), Stunning Fist (bonus feat), Dragon Ferocity, Weapon Focus, and Combat Style Master. Assuming Half-Orc, then, that leaves three feats open. Four if Human. Using, say, one of those on Improved Natural Attack jumps damage by +3.5 (+4.5 if we also have the Monk's Robe). These two alone bring net damage up to an average of 44.5, which is very close to your setup, and realistically ahead under most GMs.

So: Far less table variation, potential for more hits via ki, and this Warpriest has a lot of room to upgrade his capabilities.

Note that this is one of the weakest Sacred Fist levels. The next level represents a tectonic shift in power:

- +1.5 damage/hit off the unarmed strike going up to 2d6.
-Fourth-level spells. Better buffs ahoy. The big one is Greater Magic Weapon, which pretty much lets you totally change out your Amulet of Mighty Fists for one that only grants special abilities.
-Major blessings. The Warpriest can do the same shenanigans, now with an angel as a flank buddy.

Down the line it'll get better. If he sets up for it, at level 15 he can take Spell Perfection for Quickened Blood Crow Strikes. Two full attacks in the same round? Yup.

Further, traits would add a strict +1 to hit/damage; the other trait would likely go to Magical Knack to keep caster level up. Also hilarious saves, but hey.

Next, note the massively increased flexibility of this Warpriest. He's still having trouble hitting things? No problem. Let's drop a Greater Stunning Barrier. You hit him, you get Stunned for the round. And wouldn't that be fun with Medusa's Wrath, though that's not something that can really be up and running at the current level. And is so feat intensive that you're probably still better off with Quickened Blood Crow Strike, to be fair.

Your party needs out of combat divine support because a Shadow ruined your day? Warpriest is packing Lesser Restoration and a wand of CLW.

And buff rounds. They are a thing. In any situation where there's more than one round of buffing available, the Warpriest clearly pulls ahead.

Finally, defenses. The Sacred Fist has Evasion for both Reflex and Fort saves (Improved for Fort actually). He'll also have a better Ref and Will save overall-- saves of +9/+6/+9 before stats, where your setup is looking at +11/+5/+5. That Will save is gonna suck.

The tl;dr response then: your setup has mildly better numbers if you can get a GM to work with you, but that's offset by greater costs (the Sacred Fist I used as a comparison is under-wealth by comparison and has three open feats; even the high-end version with throw-in feats/wealth was still two feats under par and only just behind in damage), greater flexibility (I made no use of Blessings, and of course the spells are a thing), definitively greater power from round three on (hello there, ki attack), less table variation (the only iffy question the Sacred Fist has is the Pummeling/Dragon thing), better defenses (AC will be roughly equal, but Warpriest saves are better balanced and a high Will is pretty huge), and more growth potential (the level 15 test between these two? It is not pretty).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So let me say this: I think you are correct that the SF is probably better in a vacuum as a standalone character. It's certainly more versatile. That said, the Natural Weapon build hits harder and more often, probably has party support, and has less resources to track.

Specific rules override the general, and there doesn't seem to be anything contradicting this that I can find. A DM may not allow it, but mine has, and has said no to the Sacred Priest flurrying in armor by contrast. Is there an official FAQ on this? Because I've seen a lot of argument on that point both ways. Also, why especially would a DM object to this build? You yourself say even with all these things taken as given, the build barely eclipses the SF in DPR and that is all it does.

Dropping Horn of the Criosphinx, my build still has 2 feats left to play with. It could very easily drop 1 into TWF, for example, and that adds a whole new attack to the sequence. It could also trade out the Abyssal Rage Power for Fiend Totem and Reckless, adding another attack onto the sequence and granting +2 accuracy onto each hit. I also didn't factor in a +2 bonus for my Amulet of Mighty Fists, which stacks with the Furious Enchantment. Let me recalculate.

Belt of Giant Strength +4, Brawling Armor (+2), Gloves of Dueling (+2), Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (Furious +2), BAB +10, , Mutagen (+4 STR), Bloodrage (+4 STR), Weapons Training +1, Weapons Focus (+1 but only to claws), Reckless +2, TWF -2,
32 STR = 11 STR Mod

20

+25 to hit
+51 damage

Damage:

Full Attack:

Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite/Gore/Kick
+25/+25/+24/+24/+23/+23/+20
54.5/54.5/54.5/54.5/53.5/55.5/54.5

That's 381.5 on average if everything hits. Your Sacred Fist does 182.5 if everything lands. That's not a small difference. And while the SF provides it's own Haste, it's pretty common for a party member to drop Haste or Blessing of Fervor. That pushes the gap between them apart further.

Also, he gets +2 on the Will Save while raging, and he could probably take Superstition later if he needs to. There's also the War Priests limit to spells, though that's probably a wash with Rage and Mutagen limits. Depending on length of encounters and how they are spaced, either character could outlast the other.

Length of encounters is a factor too. My understanding is most combat lasts 3-5 rounds. The War Priest can buff to a higher level... but at that point the Naturalist has probably eviscerated the enemy.

The Sacred Fist, again, is probably the more potent character overall. And I doubt there's a great answer to Double Bloodcrow Strike, although that's a pretty intense resource expenditure and swift actions are a thing.

But if you want a simple martial smash fest, because your divine support is already covered for example, the Naturalist seems like a pretty solid option. :)

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