Help me create a character to prove level 20 PVP arena fights... aren't reasonable


Advice

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Silver Surfer wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

Or go Diviner, win Initiative, and do the same thing, now with more Time Stop. Why Gate in one Solar when you can Gate in three?

Prob is that Divine Strategist guarantees Initiative win..... Diviner doesnt.

And Miracle is the most powerful spell in the game since technically anything is possible.

Relying on GM Fiat is not how you win these fights. What's "technically" possible isn't highly relevant. What is relevant are these:

•Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower.
•Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
•Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
•Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

This actually makes Wish more versatile, though its material component hurts (incidentally, this is another reason why you're not likely to be using the component-eating half of Miracle).

Diviner Wizard realistically loses initiative only to Kensai (practically a non-issue here; this not a setup that favors a Kensai). It might lose to a Divine Strategist, but... emphasis might. Even then, the Strategist is both highly unlikely to be used (look at the opposition here) and overall less powerful at this level, so the Strategist really needs to make its one free standard action count.


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What's kind of funny is that while the game isn't competitive in nature, virtually 100% of D&D/Pathfinder combat is PvP-esque. This is why balance actually matters, because you may end up fighting X class in any given adventure.


A Divine Strategist can take the Tactics Inquisition to truly win Initiative forever, but yeah, the cleric spell list isn't as overpowered as the wizard one, lacking any form of time stop.

A Noble Scion Oracle though, could arguably cast Time Stop with the right Mystery, while having a super high nigh-Kensai level Initiative.


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Ashiel wrote:
What's kind of funny is that while the game isn't competitive in nature, virtually 100% of D&D/Pathfinder combat is PvP-esque. This is why balance actually matters, because you may end up fighting X class in any given adventure.

Yeah, NPCs with class levels make for very common enemies. And with the way the d20 system works, even most bestiary monsters are generally somewhat PC-like in how they function (How much HP they have, AC, damage potential, etc). Barring unusual abilities that have weird effects in a PC party, a CR 12 monster could more-or-less take the place of a level 12 character.

It's a marked contrast to way that a lot of computer/video game RPGs work, where enemies usually run on completely different rules than the PCs.


Kaouse wrote:

A Divine Strategist can take the Tactics Inquisition to truly win Initiative forever, but yeah, the cleric spell list isn't as overpowered as the wizard one, lacking any form of time stop.

A Noble Scion Oracle though, could arguably cast Time Stop with the right Mystery, while having a super high nigh-Kensai level Initiative.

The Trickery domain has Time Stop. The trouble is, the Tactics inquisition's +WIS to initiative for ~+13 (or the Feather subdomain's +1/2 level to init.) is still less on average than the a Diviner wizard's +1/2 level and treat the roll as a natural 20.

Hmm. Is there any way to get Feather, Trickery and Tactics on a character? Multiclassing just gets you the same domains IIRC.

Edit: read Divine Strategist. OK, that archetype + Trickery gets you a chance at winning init. & casting Time Stop. Or, I guess, max Use Magic Device, get a scroll or two of Time Stop, and you can go with Divine Strategist & take the Tactics inquisition to be sure. Then you frantically buff with spells like Frightful Aspect, or summon stuff then cast Meld into Stone.


kestral287 wrote:


Relying on GM Fiat is not how you win these fights. What's "technically" possible isn't highly relevant. What is relevant are these:

•Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower.
•Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
•Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
•Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

This actually makes Wish more versatile, though its material component hurts (incidentally, this is another reason why you're not likely to be using the component-eating half of Miracle).

I'm afraid its entirely relevant...

Ive never seen anyone use Miracle for anything but a direct request to a deity... component cost or otherwise. Miracle covers all the bases that Wish does with far fewer restrictions...for example there are no "opposition school" restrictions..... so how you think Wish is more versatile I dont know!!!

In addition there is nothing that implies a Miracle could back fire on its caster... something that I have seen several times with Wish.


avr wrote:


Hmm. Is there any way to get Feather, Trickery and Tactics on a character? Multiclassing just gets you the same domains IIRC.

Yes.... an unaligned Ecclesitherge


idk if this prc is in teh pathfinder society,if it is then...
pick any of the above listed caster build . take off 2 levels and 10 skill points to go souldrinker. use the summon pony+suck+regain-summon-spell loop for 50 min before battle start. you start with 5000 temp hp that at the least will last 10 min.
have fun...


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Kaouse wrote:

A Divine Strategist can take the Tactics Inquisition to truly win Initiative forever, but yeah, the cleric spell list isn't as overpowered as the wizard one, lacking any form of time stop.

A Noble Scion Oracle though, could arguably cast Time Stop with the right Mystery, while having a super high nigh-Kensai level Initiative.

Variant Multiclass is now a thing, so if a Diviner really wants the Tactics Inquisition...

*Shrug* Though I'm operating on the belief that the Divine Strategist's powers and the Diviner's don't stack. It seems like they wouldn't, due to both adding "level to initiative". If they do, Strategist VMC Diviner Wizard is how you get the most ridiculous initiative score on the planet.

... Well, probably second most. Kensai VMC Diviner is likely to pull out ahead.

Silver Surfer wrote:
kestral287 wrote:


Relying on GM Fiat is not how you win these fights. What's "technically" possible isn't highly relevant. What is relevant are these:

•Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower.
•Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
•Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
•Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

This actually makes Wish more versatile, though its material component hurts (incidentally, this is another reason why you're not likely to be using the component-eating half of Miracle).

I'm afraid its entirely relevant...

Ive never seen anyone use Miracle for anything but a direct request to a deity... component cost or otherwise. Miracle covers all the bases that Wish does with far fewer restrictions...for example there are no "opposition school" restrictions..... so how you think Wish is more versatile I dont know!!!

In addition there is nothing that implies a Miracle could back fire on its caster... something that I have seen several times with Wish.

First, to repeat myself: Relying on GM Fiat is how you waste a Miracle in situations like this.

Second: Wish's explicit abilities are more flexible than Miracle, with things like reversing time.

Finally: Miracle has explicit text that any ability more powerful than those listed comes at the whim of the deity you worship, and can be refused. Durkon can cast Miracle and ask Thor to wipe out the other four fighters with a volcano. Thor can laugh in his face.

And whether or not Thor laughs comes at the choice of your GM. Let's consider the situation here: We have one player attempting to end this fight in the fastest, most brutal method possible, which is an end outside of the goals of the other players.

So, everybody sits down at the table, having spent all this time and work on their characters. You sit down, announce that your initiative is b!%~!@$$ and you go in the surprise round. You cast Miracle, asking Gorum to slaughter everyone else for you.

How do you think the GM is going to react? "Yes, okay, Timmy wins, everybody go home"? Really?

What's far more likely is "Gorum tells you that as one of his mightiest followers, it's your job to show him worship by killing everyone yourself"

That's why you don't want to rely on things like over the top Miracles (or Wishes), or uncontrolled and unpaid Hundred-Handed Ones (unless you have a strategy to stay way the hell out of their way), or anything else that hands explicit power to the GM.

The GM being what he is, he can certainly fiat that, say, no Solars respond to the Wizard's Gate, or your Miracle to duplicate Mind Blank fails because Gorum is a dick. But doing that is an alteration of explicit rules, rather than the GM using the explicit rules that you hand him.

I hope the difference here is clear.


I see two ways to work this. Both use wizard, because the greensting scorpion familiar gives you much-needed initiative boost.

One bogs the game down by summoning crap tonnes of stuff.

The other brings enough offense to one-round kill anyone.

Basically, your basic block-buster wizard. Time stop, and lay down a lot of defensive buffs(greater invisibility, others depending on whether you have pre-arena buff time), then go to town with your things.

Also, before you do that, Cast a quickened(with spell perfection), empowered, intensified(cost removed with that trait, you know), maximized(with a lesser metamagic rod) fireball, for 100+(15d6/2)damage, averaging roughly 118 damage.

On subsequent rounds you shoot out two of those each round. They're not that hard to save against; due to gold constraints the dc is roughly 28.

Still, a high-con fighter has perhaps two-hundred and fifty hp, a barbarian three hundred. That's handily taken out in the space of two rounds, three if you get unlucky.

A variant on the above isn't a wizard, but uses the same basic principle.

Personally, I prefer Sohei over Zen Archer, as it allows you to combine flurry, rapid shot, and manyshot, but both can work just fine. Bottom line, fire a lot of arrows, watch the other pcs go down. Also, have a high AC, although that one is somewhat wealth intensive.


Wouldn't you be able to cast Time Stop a few times, then with Magical Lineage, cast several Intensified/Empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs that are Quickened with Spell Perfection? Delay them so they all go off at once & aimed at several opponents. Take the Time Stutter Arcane Discovery for a few more extra free rounds of actions and you might be able to cast a quikened/intensified/maximized delayed blast fireball too.


Takes up a lot of your spell slots really, really quickly.

Also, Spell Perfection doesn't work for that. Before you include the cost reduction that Perfection applies, the spell has to be 9th level or under. With Lineage, you have 7+(1-1)+2+4=13th level spell. You can Quicken a Delayed Blast Fireball, but you'd need both Spellhunter and Lineage and no other metamagic for 7+(4-2)=9, -2=7.

Finally that would deplete your 9th level slots really, really quickly. And presumes that nobody is built with Evasion.

Basically: too open to counters for the cost.

Liberty's Edge

20th level diviner with improved initiative and Exile Trait (Total Initiative bonus of +16 to one's dex Bonus, and with a nat 20 at level 20 that means it's +36 plus dex bonus)

1st Round- Time Stop Maximized
*1st Round - Telekinesis to help move everyone to same area(preferably a Corner to fall off of)
*2nd Round - Antimagic Field (widen & Extend) Around the enemies (20ft area for 400 Minutes)
*3rd round - Wall of Stone around the 20ft Field at full size- Dome works best)
*4th round - Limited Wish to reinforce (ie/ Double Hardness and HP of the stone wall)
*5th Round - Summon Monster VIII with Maximized Rod and Extend Spell for 5 Huge Earth Elementals debate adding Empower Spell for an additional d2 for the giggles

Repeat until defeated or exausted

Items required for amusement

Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell
Greater Belt of The Ant (mixes belt of giant str & Ant Haul)


Forgot Elf, for another +2 Initiative.

That said, Telekinesis targeting a creature would fail under Time Stop. And you'd be better off reinforcing the Wall of Stone with another Wall of Stone, not wasting a Limited Wish.

A Rod of Maximize is too expensive for the game constraints, which only allow 100,000. Staff of the Master or a metamagic gem are the only ways to Maximize Time Stop here.


I agree that letting others have there fun and not try to ruin it is the Way to go. But that said i Think i would go with a low budget version of the vaccum. Every one is gonna be starved on protective gear, because of the low budget. School savant(forsigth divination) arcanist. Int 30 (19+5+6) spell focus, greater spell focus spell perfektion (mass suffocate) one of the tricks to get the +2 bloodline power from arcane and arcanist boost Will give you a fair shot at every one in turn one.

Liberty's Edge

kestral287 wrote:

Forgot Elf, for another +2 Initiative.

That said, Telekinesis targeting a creature would fail under Time Stop. And you'd be better off reinforcing the Wall of Stone with another Wall of Stone, not wasting a Limited Wish.

A Rod of Maximize is too expensive for the game constraints, which only allow 100,000. Staff of the Master or a metamagic gem are the only ways to Maximize Time Stop here.

true enough Single Charge effects to max would work best or a rod with like 10 charges


I think the point of this excercise was to show that 20th level arenas are stupid.

As for burning too many spells, well, this is an arena battle. You only have to have enough to win this one fight. Which is another reason that arena battles are borked as all hell.

I'm going to assume that the bit about spell perfection was to Eigengrau - I'm aware of the limitation and observed it in my last post.

The bit about evasion is true, no denying that.

We really need some orb spells a la 3.5e - anyone know of some good candidates? Preferably a level 3 spell, that way rods of metamagic will be cheap.


The Dragon wrote:

I think the point of this excercise was to show that 20th level arenas are stupid.

As for burning too many spells, well, this is an arena battle. You only have to have enough to win this one fight. Which is another reason that arena battles are borked as all hell.

I'm going to assume that the bit about spell perfection was to Eigengrau - I'm aware of the limitation and observed it in my last post.

The bit about evasion is true, no denying that.

We really need some orb spells a la 3.5e - anyone know of some good candidates? Preferably a level 3 spell, that way rods of metamagic will be cheap.

That entire post was to Eigengrau actually. Your build has its own problems-- namely, somebody is likely to bring Evasion to the party-- but that's relatively easy to solve with some sort of backup capabilities, which a 20th level Blockbuster has plenty of room for. Virtually by definition of Spell Perfection, your slots above level 6 are going to be open, so you could easy go Time Stop -> buffs + Prismatic Sphere + Summon Monster VIII (better off saving that ninth-level slot), then spend the next three rounds opening Gates up for Solars, then pop out and mop up the battlefield with fireball spam. Anyone evasive gets to eat triple Solar. Anyone not evasive just dies.

I'm not a particular fan of blastering here, because the wealth limit and lack of pre-buffing hurt your defenses. Personally I would rather take the coward's way out and hide in a Prismatic Sphere than take my scrawny AC-less-than-twenty four-buffs-top rear end outside and get shot by a Zen Archer.


Well I did my metamagics wrong apparently.

It will all depend on where veryone starts on the arena map and who can go first. Most likely if you don't go first you're dead or pretty screwed.

Time Stop on first round is a must. Drop out a lot of damaging CC AOEs and then mindblank, greater invisible, fly, and wait the others out. Let them damage each other and pick your attacks or counterspell others.


I'm not so sure if a number of tactics proposed in this thread actually work. Specifically, a few posters have mentioned Maze, and many posters have mentioned just having high initiative + good offense.

Maze (or Plane Shift):

Byakko wrote:

7) May not intentionally leave the arena (including dimensional and planar travel). If forced to leave by another player, will randomly reappear in a few rounds.

With Maze/Plane Shift and similar spells, you'll only be able to delay the other player their turn for a few rounds.

High initiative:

Byakko wrote:

3) 2-5 combatants, free for all (assume 2 may be hostile to you)

...
6) May or may not start with LoS to other combatants, but anyone can make it to cover on their first round
...
5) The fight takes place on a 200' x 200' square. Roughly 70' above ground, 30' below ground. Miscellaneous unpredictable terrain elements.

It sounds like the arena is random and unpredictable. Additionally, it sounds like line of effect to all players is not guaranteed (The arena might be a labyrinth). With high initiative and a rocket-tag build, I think at best, you will only be able to destroy the players you can affect with line of effect. As such, I think, with the above rules, it is difficult to consistently win by only having high initiative and save-or-die effects. A possible scenario is as follows:

High initiative PC's turn 1 -> Destroy 3 players within line of sight/effect.
Mid-to-low initiative PC's turn -> randomly flies around a corner, coincidentally sees High initiative PC, kills High initiative PC with a swift action.

That said, I think having high initiative is still a prerequisite to win consistently. But I think that rocket tag alone will not let you consistently win. I think the best build needs to be able to kill all enemies within line of effect on turn 1 AND buff/conjure up a defense capable of surviving an attack if during some other players turn they randomly gain line of effect to you.

The Exchange

Well if you don't want to turtle but still want to prove that level 20 is a bad idea, here's a build that will do it. I built this really fast. Note that I didn't build to win, I didn't build to survive. I still have 4 feats and over 10,000 gold to spend. I just made a build that will auto-gank any one character you can see. Proving that level 20...isn't reasonable.

Build:
Ridonculous
Elf magus (bladebound, kensai) 20 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 55, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 9, 47)
N Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +31; Senses low-light vision; Perception +18
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 21, flat-footed 10 (+10 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 82 (20d8-21)
Fort +10, Ref +17, Will +10; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities canny defense; Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee black blade +34/+34/+29/+24 (1d6+19/18-20/×3+20 Precision)
Special Attacks arcane pool (+5, 14 points), counterstrike, greater spell combat, magus arcana (arcane deed, arcane deed, bane blade, flamboyant arcana), precise strike, spellstrike, weapon mastery
Magus (Bladebound, Kensai) Spells Prepared (CL 20th; concentration +28)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 30, Con 6, Int 26, Wis 7, Cha 7
Base Atk +15; CMB +15; CMD 34
Feats Fencing Grace[ACO], Dimensional Agility[UC], Dimensional Assault[UC], Greater Weapon Focus (rapier), Greater Weapon Specialization (rapier), Improved Initiative, Run, Totem Spirit - Shriikirri-quah (hawk Clan)[ISWG], Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (rapier), Weapon Specialization (rapier)
Traits elven reflexes, killer
Skills Acrobatics +30 (+34 to jump with a running start, +42 to jump), Perception +18, Ride +12, Use Magic Device +21; Racial Modifiers +2 Spellcraft to identify magic item properties
Languages Common, Elven
SQ black blade, black blade: arcane pool, black blade: energy attunement, black blade: life drinker, black blade: spell defense, black blade: strike, black blade: telepathy, black blade: teleport blade, black blade: transfer arcana, black blade: unbreakable, chosen weapon, critical perfection, elven magic, iaijutsu, iaijutsu focus, iaijutsu master, perfect strike, superior reflexes, swashbuckler initiative
Other Gear belt of incredible dexterity +6, boots of speed, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack), headband of vast intelligence +6, 11,500 gp

Your initiative is automatically 51. Swift action to make your blade bane (whoever you are going to kill), keen, shocking, flaming, frost. Free action to click your heels for haste. Free action to spend a black blade point for +5 damage for one minute. Full-round for Dimensional Assault (spell combat Dimensional Agility if they're more than 120' away but you take a -4 net on attacks). Now kill.

+38/+38/+33/+28 (3d6+26+1d6(fire)+1d6(cold)+1d6(electricity)+20 precision) 15-20x3.

And you are attacking flat-footed for another +8 damage (Iajutsu Focus). Any hit is an average of 75 damage. You auto-confirm crits and can spend 2 points from your black blade's pool as a free action to increase the multiplier by 1. So if you roll above a 14 someone is eating 6d6+144+3d6 (~182) damage.

If you actually want to win:
I'd balance the stats a little more. 6 Con is just silly. Dropping damage a bit to only do 50+ per non-crit hit is still fine though you won't be able to one-round everyone. Pick up the Accurate Strike Arcana. Drop the initiative modifier a bit. No one other than another Kensai is going to approach your initiative. Go the full DimDervish route, although you will have to wait until round two since it's a swift action like arcane pool. I still say that a round one prismatic sphere is the way to go since it essentially makes you immune while you buff up.


Line of sight is actually really, really easy.

The Diviner strategy could go like this if you need LoS:

Surprise round: Time Stop with Maximized Gem
TS1: Cast Fly, move 30' up. Cast Quickened Invisibility (or Greater, if you're going to actually target people)
TS 2: Cast Summon Monster Whatever + Quickened Whatever, Fly 30' up
TS 3-4: You get the idea

By the time the actual combat round begins, you're 120' up in the air and invisible. Likely able to see the entire battlefield, and as a bonus out of range of anyone who cast True Seeing, unless they're directly below you.

Going first is also really easy. The Diviner is not easy to beat in initiative, and those that do are dramatically less threatening than it is.

And covering yourself from being surprised is really easy. If you can't become undetectable, you become unhittable. Prismatic Sphere will work really well for this: it can't be Dispelled or AMF'd (Disjunction works, but that's about it), it checks Spell Resistance seven times, it's absolute suicide to try to make the saves and pass through, etc.

Further, the solid plans involve minions, which grant a lot more Perception checks and let you have bodies in more places at once. You sneak up on me after a Summon Monster VIII and a Gate or three? I deserve what's coming to me.


kestral287 wrote:


Line of sight is actually really, really easy.
...
Surprise round: Time Stop with Maximized Gem
...
TS1: Cast Fly, move 30' up. Cast Quickened Invisibility (or Greater, if you're going to actually target people)
TS 2: Cast Summon Monster Whatever + Quickened Whatever, Fly 30' up
TS 3-4: You get the idea

By the time the actual combat round begins, you're 120' up in the air and invisible. Likely able to see the entire battlefield, and as a bonus out of range of anyone who cast True Seeing, unless they're directly below you.

With the OP's stated rules, flying up doesn't guarantee line of sight to all PCs. For example, there might be a forest canopy.

Edit: Also, if you read the OP, the 'ceiling' of the arena is only 70' high.


voideternal wrote:
kestral287 wrote:


Line of sight is actually really, really easy.
...
Surprise round: Time Stop with Maximized Gem
...
TS1: Cast Fly, move 30' up. Cast Quickened Invisibility (or Greater, if you're going to actually target people)
TS 2: Cast Summon Monster Whatever + Quickened Whatever, Fly 30' up
TS 3-4: You get the idea

By the time the actual combat round begins, you're 120' up in the air and invisible. Likely able to see the entire battlefield, and as a bonus out of range of anyone who cast True Seeing, unless they're directly below you.

With the OP's stated rules, flying up doesn't guarantee line of sight to all PCs. For example, there might be a forest canopy.

Edit: Also, if you read the OP, the 'ceiling' of the arena is only 70' high.

Hence the "likely", though point taken on the height ceiling-- I'd gotten into my head that it was a 200' cube somehow.

The thing is, we don't know what the terrain is. We can prepare options, and we can make those options as flexible as possible. You are correct-- there might be a forest canopy.

There also might not be a forest canopy, and a 70' height advantage is enough to grant line of sight to the entire battlefield.

So we can prepare tactics, and we can adapt those tactics to the scenario. That's what you're saying. And that's what, well... most people have been doing.

Multiple people have suggested summons and gates. Multiple people have suggested Prismatic Sphere. Only about two people apiece suggested blasting (which does require LoS) or a Vacuum-style build (which also requires LoS).

Me? I'd say keep a Baleful Polymorph or two in your back pocket, and if somebody hands you a shot then, well, take it. After you get your defenses stabilized (rocket tag is stupid) and your roving bodies up and moving (rocket tag is great when it's being conducted by your ablative meat shields).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ElterAgo wrote:

First: This pretty much becomes "Who got the highest initiative? You win."

The martial grapple or otherwise lays into the caster so he can't cast.
The caster spams some max DC SoD spells on everyone else.

Sometimes you get a bit of a fight if they are all martials. But it still mostly comes down to who got initiative, then a glass cannon DPR build to take them down.

I don't think it works very well past about level 10-12.

Byakko wrote:

...

4) No pre-buffs or pre-battle preparations (not even hour/level)

...

Completely in-character, I would be tempted to cheat this. There is a lot you can do that makes other things nearly undetectable.

If you notice most, threads on this vein, pretty much boil down to who can outcheat the other.


Not really?

I mean, who can come up with the best shenanigans, sure, but please, if you can quote somebody saying "cheat the rules" as a serious statement, go ahead and throw it out.

Preferably multiple somebodies, to actually establish a pattern. If that's what these threads "boil down to" you should be able to find a plurality, if not majority, expressing strategies that are 'cheating'.


Belafon wrote:

Well if you don't want to turtle but still want to prove that level 20 is a bad idea, here's a build that will do it. I built this really fast. Note that I didn't build to win, I didn't build to survive. I still have 4 feats and over 10,000 gold to spend. I just made a build that will auto-gank any one character you can see. Proving that level 20...isn't reasonable.

** spoiler omitted **...

How are you ensuring that target is flat-footed, aside from beating them in initiative?

Breaking down your damage, we get: 2d6 (Bane) + 3d6 (fire, cold, acid) + 20 (Precise Strike) + 10 (Dex) + 7 (Weapon ENH) = 54.5 damage average

Even with the +8 from Iaijutsu focus, that's still 62.5 damage. Are you including the possible effect of crits to that number or what? If so, I'm guessing you're including the Kensai's Perfect strike & Weapon Mastery Capstone into the numbers, because otherwise I'm not entirely sure that measures up.

Actually, when I think about it, I'm not so sure you're including the bonus from Precise Strike; you do x4 damage with 17 damage capable of being multiplied. That's an additional 15.3 damage per strike when your 30% crit chance is taken into account, for about 70 damage without Iaijutsu Focus, and exactly 85 damage with it + crit chance taken into account.

Weapon Mastery is an awesome capstone for a Kensai, huh.

I'd stay away from Dimensional Assault though. With Dimensional Agility, you could just spell combat Dimension Door right next to the opponent and full attack them. You arguably don't even need Dimensional Agility for that though, with the way Spell Combat is worded.

EDIT: Forgot about Black Blade Strike. +5 damage regularly, +4.5 more damage with crit chance taken into effect. Crit fishing OP.

As for Kestral, do you think Prismatic Sphere and similar effects can be Spell Sundered?

If it's a question of being undetectable though, a level 20 ninja with Conceal Scent/Pass without Trace + Hellcat Stealth + Hide in Plain Sight/Shadow Well + Dampen Presence is obscenely difficult to actually find. I'm not sure if there really is a canon way to do so other than wait until his super-invisibility runs out, but he can do anything else he wants during that time.

That said, he can't get through Prismatic Sphere, so there's that.


I just realized that Bladebound Kensai are basically the only class that can get both a decent weapon and decent AC with these gold restrictions. As such, this class gets my vote for most fun class to play under these restrictions.

Full casters can often be more self-reliant with spells, but without proper buff time, that's going to be difficult to come by outside of Time Stop & Prismatic Sphere Shenanigans.

So wizards are easily the most likely to win by turtling and buffing, but Kensai would be more fun to play IMO. Still holding out for a Dwarf Kensai being able to Shatter Spell against Prismatic Sphere and catch the wizard inside off guard, but ce la vie.


Prismatic sphere is susceptible against spell sunder effects, at least I see no reason why it wouldn't be.

Dampen Presence will also be effective against echolocation, although it seems permanent arcane sight would still detect magical auras.

Even with spell sunder effects a Prismatic Sphere sucks up one attack, and a character would need a full attack and reach action to hit the diviner after the sunder. The Diviner also has emergency force sphere as an option. That said, earth glide could be a better option to avoid attacks depending on the arena.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:

Not really?

I mean, who can come up with the best shenanigans, sure, but please, if you can quote somebody saying "cheat the rules" as a serious statement, go ahead and throw it out.

Preferably multiple somebodies, to actually establish a pattern. If that's what these threads "boil down to" you should be able to find a plurality, if not majority, expressing strategies that are 'cheating'.

I wasn't referring to player cheating so much as character cheating, which is completely okay in a roleplaying scenario. What I was referrring to is that unlike melee arena play, Magic arena scenarios are more like negating the opponenet before the first move is even made.

It's very much like that Rowan Atkinson setup of Dr. Who.


Kaouse wrote:
As for Kestral, do you think Prismatic Sphere and similar effects can be Spell Sundered?

Sure. The Barbarian better have friends though, because he's not going to be able to do that and hit the Wizard inside in the same round, barring a very specific build.

This is why you keep some of your Summons around as bodyguards though. That way, the Barbarian gets tangled up in a summon, the Wizard notices, pops out of the Sphere, nails him with whatever his preferred attack-roll-instead-of-save spell is, and pops back in.

Incidentally, Flyby Attack. It's worth taking, if you can convince a GM that Overland Flight active every waking moment fulfills the pre-req. Combines beautifully with Prismatic Sphere.

Actually, depending on the terrain it might be worthwhile to create your Prismatic Sphere in the air.

Then, to nail you in one round, the Barbarian would need...

  • Spell Sunder
  • Greater Beast Totem
  • Greater Elemental Blood, Air
  • Animal Fury or a native Bite or Gore attack
  • A reach weapon

    He'd fly up (and he would have to start all this from directly below, incidentally), stop 5' from the Sphere, have to use his natural weapon to Sunder it (at -5, which probably doesn't change anything but might force Strength Surge into play), then hit you with the reach weapon. The Bloodrager can pull a similar thing, swapping Greater Elemental Blood for the actual Fly spell. And he wouldn't need a reach weapon or the natural attack if he was Abyssal, due to Enlarge. That still requires him to be willing to burn off his level 8, 12, and 20 bloodline powers though. Possible, but I wouldn't classify it as a likely threat at that point.

  • The Exchange

    Kaouse wrote:
    Belafon wrote:

    Well if you don't want to turtle but still want to prove that level 20 is a bad idea, here's a build that will do it. I built this really fast. Note that I didn't build to win, I didn't build to survive. I still have 4 feats and over 10,000 gold to spend. I just made a build that will auto-gank any one character you can see. Proving that level 20...isn't reasonable.

    How are you ensuring that target is flat-footed, aside from beating them in initiative?

    That's it. Like I said, it's just a single auto-gank character.

    Quote:
    Breaking down your damage, we get: 2d6 (Bane) + 3d6 (fire, cold, acid) + 20 (Precise Strike) + 10 (Dex) + 7 (Weapon ENH) = 54.5 damage average

    1d6 (weapon) + 10 (Dex) + 7 (Weapon Enhancement) + 5 (Black Blade Strike) + 4 (WSpec, GWSpec) + 8 (Iajutsu Focus) + 3d6 (fire, cold, elec) + 2d6 (Bane) + 20 (Precise Strike) = 75

    Quote:
    Even with the +8 from Iaijutsu focus, that's still 62.5 damage. Are you including the possible effect of crits to that number or what? If so, I'm guessing you're including the Kensai's Perfect strike & Weapon Mastery Capstone into the numbers, because otherwise I'm not entirely sure that measures up.

    Notice that I broke it into "when you hit" and "if you roll above a 14 (auto-crit)" numbers.

    Quote:
    Actually, when I think about it, I'm not so sure you're including the bonus from Precise Strike; you do x4 damage with 17 damage capable of being multiplied. That's an additional 15.3 damage per strike when your 30% crit chance is taken into account, for about 70 damage without Iaijutsu Focus, and exactly 85 damage with it + crit chance taken into account.

    I did do my math wrong. Everything but the bane, energy damage, and Precise strike multiplies on a crit for 4x(1d6 + 34) + 5d6 + 20 + 4 (killer Trait) = 191 damage

    Quote:
    I'd stay away from Dimensional Assault though. With Dimensional Agility, you could just spell combat Dimension Door right next to the opponent and full attack them.

    Dimensional Assault is not spell combat so it doesn't take the -2 on attacks. It also counts as a charge for +2 on attacks. See: "Intended to auto-gank one character." (c.f. "Rocket Tag")


    Belafon's Kensai build is pretty good. With Arcane Deeds you can place a Con bleed or dex, str bleed on someone and just withdraw and go invisible. I'd dp that against the melee types and only go all out against casters


    I forgot weapon damage too. Idiocy. -_-

    That said, what is that "killer trait" that you mentioned, Belafon?

    As for Kestral, is there a reason the Barbarian needs a bite or gore attack specifically?


    Some great responses going on here, I appreciate it guys. Let me give some more feedback.

    Summoned creature spam:
    Summoned/gated creatures are certainly strong, but I wonder how long they'd really last against optimized level 20 characters, especially ones prepared for this tactic.

    Wishes/Miracles:
    If we're going to annihilate others, we should do it with methods that don't depend on the GM's favorable reading. kestral summed this up quite nicely earlier.

    Pre-buffing/actions before start of match:
    No in-character "cheating" is allowed. That's a whole 'nother can of worms...

    Blaster Builds:
    These can be effective, but weapon based "blaster" builds are probably much more effective at dishing out damage at this level, and harder to counter. Granted, martial versions are even more reliant on acting first, having fewer defensive options. (but don't underestimate sniping...)

    Flying/Invisibility:
    I'd be surprised if anyone showed up being unable to fly (or target flying creatures) or lacking a means of invisible creature detection.

    Time Stop:
    This appears to be the single most troublesome spell. When maximized and chained ("As my last standard action, I ready to cast another Time Stop as soon as my turn ends."), many silly things can happen. But can you reliably set up the demise of ~4 other players within this time?

    Metamagic Gems:
    These seem to be from a fairly obscure, non-PFS legal, source. While they may actually still be fine (I'll have to check), I'm thinking there should be enough ways to accomplish this exercise without them.

    Defensive Builds:
    It's not that unlikely to see martial builds with high defensive capabilities, even on a low budget. Heck, I have a 9th level PFS character with a touch AC in the high 30's and +20s on saving throws (backed up by Battle Cry, Evasion, etc). Similar builds at level 20 could be quite difficult to crack. I'm hoping to see more options that don't rely upon consistently hitting and/or failed saving throws to function.

    ----------------------------------------------

    Hiding/Turtling/Walls:

    I bet most players will be thinking similarly - no one's going to want to stand out in the open. If a build isn't so oppressively dominating that it can simply defeat/suppress all others on its first turn, you can bet it's going to remove itself as a target. Even a simple well-trained Stealth skill may make it very hard to find a player.

    I actually foresee this as a likely outcome: everyone hides/turtles and a lot of time passes because no one wants to stick their neck out. While not as immediately obvious that this makes for a poor gameplay experience, I doubt people are really going to have much fun when 2 mages spend all day in their spheres, 2 guys are chilling underground, and the ninja is napping in a shadow somewhere.

    Dark Archive

    Pathfinder LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition Subscriber

    Level 8, Douple Wealth for Level, Max health plus favored class plus con score, (this makes for longer fights as everyone can take more hits)

    This is just the key points of my arena system, i have a full 3 page type up of my arena combat rules for my group and we do king of the hill round robin, the person that holds the top spot gains a random bonus durning Adventure days on their adventure Character.


    I've only skimmed this thread, so forgive me if this has already been suggested.

    But if you’re looking for something proactive … Is there some version of a half-orc (sacred tattoo/fate's favored) Greater Beast Totem / Superstitious (including human favored bonus) > Spell-Sundering > Ghost Raging Invulnerable Rager barbarian who also makes use of Diehard > Deathless Initiate to insta-gib anything he/she sees?

    It only requires level 17 to rage cycle, so would that give enough gold to buy up items to cover the various “i win” buttons that have been tossed around (Hidden Master, Suffocation, Enervations, and the like)? Or is he ultimately just another mage-fodder martial?


    Eben TheQuiet wrote:

    I've only skimmed this thread, so forgive me if this has already been suggested.

    But if you’re looking for something proactive … Is there some version of a half-orc (tribal scars/fate's favored) Greater Beast Totem / Superstitious (including human favored bonus) > Spell-Sundering > Ghost Raging Invulnerable Rager barbarian who also makes use of Diehard > Deathless Initiate to insta-gib anything he/she sees?

    It only requires level 17 to rage cycle, so would that give enough gold to buy up items to cover the various “i win” buttons that have been tossed around (Hidden Master, Suffocation, Enervations, and the like)? Or is he ultimately just another mage-fodder martial?

    they only have limited gold so they Will most likely all be spell casters.

    The Exchange

    Sounds like you are shifting your focus towards "trying to win" :)

    I can tell you from several years of Cheese Grinder experience (11th level PvE free-for-all with the top finishers going to a respawning PvP finale) that defensive builds do tend to dominate. In fact after a year when the top scorer in a 6-way 2-hour fight had 3 points, the rules were changed to cost you points every round you didn't take an offensive action.

    But that's a function of PvP in Pathfinder, not level 20. At level 20 a defensive build will probably still win but it will take a lot longer to adjudicate all the actions. I think after the first time your group tried this they will realize that and modify the rules heavily. (Performance Combat is a good way to ensure people are trying to attack one another).

    Killer Trait:

    APG wrote:
    Killer: You made your first kill at a very young age and found the task of war or murder to your liking. You either take particular pride in a well-placed blow, or find vile pleasure in such a strike as you twist the blade to maximize the pain. You deal additional damage equal to your weapon's critical hit modifier when you score a successful critical hit with a weapon; this additional damage is added to the final total, and is not multiplied by the critical hit multiple itself. This extra damage is a trait bonus.


    Is the null magic stone still a real thing? i.e. a beholders eye. Cause a monk with one around its neck would be pretty funny.


    LazarX wrote:


    If you notice most, threads on this vein, pretty much boil down to who can outcheat the other.

    This is a lie. Please do not lie!

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    CWheezy wrote:
    LazarX wrote:


    If you notice most, threads on this vein, pretty much boil down to who can outcheat the other.
    This is a lie. Please do not lie!

    Keep in mind that I'm talking about characters, not players. You'll see that virtually all of the tactics here are about duel nullification, not actually engaging in a spell driven slugfest. That's mainly because there really isn't a good dueling mechanic in place on the scale of Ars Magica's certamen. Spell duels between nages generally boil down to rocket tag.


    Slumber.


    LazarX wrote:
    CWheezy wrote:
    LazarX wrote:


    If you notice most, threads on this vein, pretty much boil down to who can outcheat the other.
    This is a lie. Please do not lie!
    Keep in mind that I'm talking about characters, not players. You'll see that virtually all of the tactics here are about duel nullification, not actually engaging in a spell driven slugfest. That's mainly because there really isn't a good dueling mechanic in place on the scale of Ars Magica's certamen. Spell duels between nages generally boil down to rocket tag.

    cheating is breaking the rules, not making strong characters! It is a pretty heavy accusation to call someone a cheater! I think it is important not to lie about what goes on in threads!


    Kaouse wrote:

    I forgot weapon damage too. Idiocy. -_-

    That said, what is that "killer trait" that you mentioned, Belafon?

    As for Kestral, is there a reason the Barbarian needs a bite or gore attack specifically?

    Well, he needs something to attack a target 5' in front of him. That does give options beyond Bite/Gore (any other natural weapon that doesn't use the hands, or armor spikes/spiked gauntlet)

    But the Prismatic Sphere has a 10' radius. That's why you need the reach weapon, to get to the Wizard inside on the same round you try to Sunder the Sphere. Since it's 10', though, using a reach weapon means that you either stand 5' back from the Sphere (putting the Wizard out of range) or you have a way to attack at reach and non-reach both.

    Byakko wrote:

    Some great responses going on here, I appreciate it guys. Let me give some more feedback.

    Summoned creature spam:
    Summoned/gated creatures are certainly strong, but I wonder how long they'd really last against optimized level 20 characters, especially ones prepared for this tactic.

    This is why I'm suggesting reserving enough gold for three Gatings of 22 hit die creatures that can be controlled. Summon Monster VIII should also be in your playbook, but that's largely because it can be cast during Time Stop. The meatshields are just that, and are disposable. Personally I'd use Earth Elementals; they make very good sentries and spotters.

    But for the Gates... one Solar is beatable. A pack of three Solars working together? That's a real threat. Use the action economy, and be willing to fight dirty with them. Solars have Wish as a SLA, and its explicit powers are nasty-- one could certainly use a Solar's Wish to Geas a target with "Do not allow any harm befall the Wizard".

    Heck-- if there are three or fewer opponents, that's pretty much a win there.

    Byakko wrote:

    Metamagic Gems:

    These seem to be from a fairly obscure, non-PFS legal, source. While they may actually still be fine (I'll have to check), I'm thinking there should be enough ways to accomplish this exercise without them.

    You really just need one for getting your Time Stop set up. If you can't do that, the simplest way is to take a Staff of the Master and Maximize from the feat. Unfortunately, the Staff of the Master is far more expensive. If I had to take one, I'd take a Headband of Vast Intelligence +6, a Staff of the Master, a Maximize Gem, and save the remaining 30k for Gates. Spell Specialization (Gate) would definitely be a feat taken.

    You're looking at limited enough spell slots that I wouldn't want to chain Time Stops; by my math you're likely to hit 30 Int, which comes to five 9th-level spells + one school spell (which, if we're talking Divination... I haven't looked, but what are the 9th level Divination spells?)


    Byakko wrote:

    Flying/Invisibility:

    I'd be surprised if anyone showed up being unable to fly (or target flying creatures) or lacking a means of invisible creature detection.

    Mindblank + greater invis will make it difficult to detect the wizard without a blindsense like ability, while echolocation and arcane sight will make it difficult to hide from the wizard. You could even have one of the solars turn you ethereal which would stymie invisibility purge as well.

    Fickle winds will shut down archers, so much so they will surely have some sort of counter measure prepared.

    Solars will wreck face, especially since the martials get so little gold. You'll probably be encountering mostly other spell casters.

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