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You also say it like anime is the only place that s!#+ happens. Comic books do it all the time too.It IS cheesy, because its so unrealistic and anime-ish.You say "unrealistic and anime-ish" like it's a bad thing.
And Celtic Mythology.
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Many of us have a preference as to how we play the game and/or we have a certain vision of what the game is intended (supposed) to be. Things that dont fit that person's view for whatever reason are labeled as cheese.
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Also Cheese :-)
Cheese is also labeled as Cheese
Mmm.... Cheese...
And Celtic Mythology.You also say it like anime is the only place that s!#+ happens. Comic books do it all the time too.It IS cheesy, because its so unrealistic and anime-ish.You say "unrealistic and anime-ish" like it's a bad thing.
And Greco-Roman. And Hebraic. And Russian. And general European. And...
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I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.
I don't blame Tolkien, I blame the people who think Tolkien is the only fantasy that matters.
He was a pretty cool guy, though. I bet he'd have played a Paladin in D&D if he'd been able to.
And Greco-Roman. And Hebraic. And Russian. And general European. And...And Celtic Mythology.You also say it like anime is the only place that s!#+ happens. Comic books do it all the time too.It IS cheesy, because its so unrealistic and anime-ish.You say "unrealistic and anime-ish" like it's a bad thing.
True, but anime is not part of European-derived cultural history (leaving aside the heavy western influence on its origins). And thus to some people, it an evil, horrible thing to be stigmatized and hated.
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I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.I don't blame Tolkien, I blame the people who think Tolkien is the only fantasy that matters.
He was a pretty cool guy, though. I bet he'd have played a Paladin in D&D if he'd been able to.
Exactly this. Vanilla ice cream is a perfectly good flavor, and one I'm rather fond of at times. I'd still be very annoyed if somebody said that vanilla was the One True Flavor of ice cream, and liking anything else was just wrong.
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Exactly this. Vanilla ice cream is a perfectly good flavor, and one I'm rather fond of at times. I'd still be very annoyed if somebody said that vanilla was the One True Flavor of ice cream, and liking anything else was just wrong.I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.I don't blame Tolkien, I blame the people who think Tolkien is the only fantasy that matters.
He was a pretty cool guy, though. I bet he'd have played a Paladin in D&D if he'd been able to.
Well, of course not, Strawberry is the One True Flavor (TM).
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Well, of course not, Strawberry is the One True Flavor (TM).Exactly this. Vanilla ice cream is a perfectly good flavor, and one I'm rather fond of at times. I'd still be very annoyed if somebody said that vanilla was the One True Flavor of ice cream, and liking anything else was just wrong.I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.I don't blame Tolkien, I blame the people who think Tolkien is the only fantasy that matters.
He was a pretty cool guy, though. I bet he'd have played a Paladin in D&D if he'd been able to.
Ah, the wailings of the misguided. One day they will see the light and join us on our island paradise enclave of mint chocolate-chip.
I haven't been there myself, but the head priest tells me it's quite nice.
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I'm so glad this thread started. It's been a long time since I've gotten to drop one of my catchphrases.
"Because some people just like to b!+@#"
That felt right. Like coming home from a long trip.
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Pralines and cream sucka!
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Ewwwww! mint chocolate-chip?
Samoa Cookie Ice Cream FTW! (teaberry is a close second)
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To be honest, I'm an equal opportunity ice cream eater.
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To be honest, I'm an equal opportunity ice cream eater.
BURN THE HERETIwoah where did that come from
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I would be pretty psyked to play a super fantastical martial like some of the heroes of myth. Too bad that's never going to happen in the normal game.
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Exactly this. Vanilla ice cream is a perfectly good flavor, and one I'm rather fond of at times. I'd still be very annoyed if somebody said that vanilla was the One True Flavor of ice cream, and liking anything else was just wrong.I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.I don't blame Tolkien, I blame the people who think Tolkien is the only fantasy that matters.
He was a pretty cool guy, though. I bet he'd have played a Paladin in D&D if he'd been able to.
One Flavor to rule them all. One Flavor to find them.
One Flavor to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would be pretty psyked to play a super fantastical martial like some of the heroes of myth. Too bad that's never going to happen in the normal game.
yep. cu chulainn was a bloodrager, gilgamesh is a mighty godling, sun wukong is a staff magus, etc.
no splitting mountains with your sword, despite the wizard getting to tear universes a new orifice every morning after breakfast.
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These things aren't meant to be taken literally...
It's probably a reference to all manufactures of dairy in general.
[/python]
Western comics and cartoons don't generally use oversized weapons. They use extremely powerful normal-sized weapons.
So, the main place us westerners see this kind of thing is anime, and the manga that is derived from.
Thus, in comparison to the normal standard of western cartoons, it's cheesy. And the place you see it is anime, so it's getting your anime into this wonderful western RPG stuff.
That's why people see it as cheesy and anime-ish. And why you get people speaking up about it.
I find it cheesy, and I associate it with Anime. If that's what you want to play, hey, that's they way you want to play. Go ahead and have fun. A little cheese can be lots of fun. It's just a different style of play.
I personally prefer my longsword and shield style, but I'm a sucker for classic knights, heh!
==Aelryinth
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Classic knights are great, at level five.
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In my experience, cheese has several incarnations:
1) Cheddar - This is your garden-variety "stop liking what I don't like!" cheese. It can be applied to monkey grip, someone who wants to TWF with a two-hander and kicks, or even just a monk with a sword. The most common cheese, it goes with virtually anything! Can be part of a balanced diet, but if taken to an extreme you can lose count of your calories pretty fast.
2) Limburger - This is the stinkiest of cheeses. It consists of deliberately misinterpreting rules to get what you want, and insisting on eating it no matter what. May or may not be part of a balanced diet, but either way it leaves everyone around you repulsed.
3) Mozzarella - Everyone loves mozzarella, but usually loves it on its own or as the central flavor rather than an accent to other things. Consists of swords larger than buildings, samurai cutting tanks in half, and some weirdo in tights with a dagger flute riding a dragon-robot into battle. Definitely not part of a balanced diet, but sometimes you just gotta have your cheese sticks!
4) Parmesan - A great cheese, but only when used appropriately. Consists of playing an Arthurian knight in an oriental setting, a samurai in the streets of New York, or other horribly mis-matched themes. When used correctly it brings an air of mystery to your diet, a flavor that stands out as special amongst the rest. When used incorrectly it's just foul. Either way, you don't' use much of it at once.
And of course there are so many more kinds of cheese, too many to count.
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Taco cheese, where everybody is out of place and doing something totally inappropriate to the normal game. Must have at least 4 varieties of cheese to be done properly.
==Aelryinth
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Western comics and cartoons don't generally use oversized weapons. They use extremely powerful normal-sized weapons.
So, the main place us westerners see this kind of thing is anime, and the manga that is derived from.
Thus, in comparison to the normal standard of western cartoons, it's cheesy. And the place you see it is anime, so it's getting your anime into this wonderful western RPG stuff.
That's why people see it as cheesy and anime-ish. And why you get people speaking up about it.
I find it cheesy, and I associate it with Anime. If that's what you want to play, hey, that's they way you want to play. Go ahead and have fun. A little cheese can be lots of fun. It's just a different style of play.
I personally prefer my longsword and shield style, but I'm a sucker for classic knights, heh!
==Aelryinth
Aren't D&D-type longswords actually oversized in and of themselves? Short swords are closer to what actual historical knights fought with.
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Aren't D&D-type longswords actually oversized in and of themselves? Short swords are closer to what actual historical knights fought with.
Depends on the era, and which knights you're talking about. Especially since there wasn't anything even starting to approach standardized weapon designs or terminology.
However, the only definition Pathfinder gives for longsword vs. shortsword is the overall length of the weapon.
Longsword: This sword is about 3-1/2 feet in length.
Shortsword: This sword is about 2 feet in length.
Two feet long is a lot shorter than the blades most knights used. The closest thing there was to a standard one-handed knightly sword was the arming sword, which could vary from a bit under three feet long to nearly four foot. Needless to say, blade length, handle length, and overall design could vary quite a bit.
The arming sword also shrank in size over time, as it shifted from the knight's primary weapon to more of a backup/close quarters weapon for when the knight's polearms, zweihanders, or other large, heavy hitting weapons couldn't be used.
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The game already allows and uses oversized weapons. Aelryinth seems to find dual wielding greatswords cheesy but the game allows dual wielding Dwarven double waraxe (and for dwarves it's martial...) and they are FOUR more pounds heavier per weapon. You're pretty much whipping around two Greataxes and don't even need a feat to do it.
Or for normal folk, the Flambard, a two handed weapon, can be used one handed and can therefor be used in TWF. The oversized weapon ship sailed a while ago.
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@OP - I use "cheese" as a semi-derogatory critique for other people complaining about "OP" options. I don't really believe in cheese as a commonly existing thing. That's not to say cheesy options don't actually exist, but I associate those more with rules-lawyering/rules-don't-say-I-can't types. Funnily enough, an assertion I would make about people with respect to system capability can be demonstrated with a neat scenario. Assuming dwarves and elves simply never existed in the game, and a player used the race builder to create them as we currently know them to be in the CRB/ARG, I think most GMs would say "hell no" and the results would be labeled cheesy and power gamer-y. I would further posit someone seeking advice on these boards about trying to introduce them would be decried and told they're having badwrongfun. It ties in with my belief that GMs tend to wax restrictive over player options rather than enabling options and, therefore, "fun."
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I like all kinds of cheese, but I want all players to bring the same amount of cheese and similar enough kinds of cheese that it makes a nice blend. This is the good cheese, bad cheese happens when some player bring a nice Tolkienesque character into a half wolfkin/half angel dual wielding scythe half naked charisma and dex maxed character.
The caster in Lord of the Rings solo'd a Balor, and he was a freaking Magus. Not even a full Wizard. The elves had some high level clerics in tow too, IIRC.I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.Everything's always Tolkien's fault.
Imagine if people's impression of what a caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting was based on Tolkien.
The caster who solo'd a Balor was not a human, he was a demigod.
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I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.
In Lord of the rings they talk about one man being worth more than thousand men so we cannot blame this one on Tolkien. There is a archer that one shots a dragon. A (apperantly) very high level hobbit expert that beat a gigant quasi divine spider. Tolkien have it all. He was a old cheese Ball, him.
Actually it is the magic guys that are low power in Tolkien that is why they all run around with swords.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.I don't blame Tolkien, I blame the people who think Tolkien is the only fantasy that matters.
He was a pretty cool guy, though. I bet he'd have played a Paladin in D&D if he'd been able to.
Naa he would have been a Ranger with a like for older women. Or a little guy with furry feet and a dislike for machinery.
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Well, of course not, Strawberry is the One True Flavor (TM).Exactly this. Vanilla ice cream is a perfectly good flavor, and one I'm rather fond of at times. I'd still be very annoyed if somebody said that vanilla was the One True Flavor of ice cream, and liking anything else was just wrong.I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.I don't blame Tolkien, I blame the people who think Tolkien is the only fantasy that matters.
He was a pretty cool guy, though. I bet he'd have played a Paladin in D&D if he'd been able to.
I think they both taste like cheese.
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I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.In Lord of the rings they talk about one man being worth more than thousand men so we cannot blame this one on Tolkien. There is a archer that one shots a dragon. A (apperantly) very high level hobbit expert that beat a gigant quasi divine spider. Tolkien have it all. He was a old cheese Ball, him.
Actually it is the magic guys that are low power in Tolkien that is why they all run around with swords.I'd actually love to see a RPG that handled high end Tolkien well. The Silmarillion stuff in particular, though it would be nice if it also handled the later more mundane stuff as well.
Hurin and Turin as warriors. Luthien singing armies to sleep. Fingolfin dueling Morgoth.Definitely not low power, but at the same time not as blatantly powered as high level PF. More subtle magic than teleports and fireballs and things.
and Isildur kicking Sauron around and Azaghal killing that dragon.
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I speak for the provolone people.
Certainly not all new things are cheese. For every feat, class, spell, item, or subsystem introduced that some label as cheese, there are dozens upon dozens more that no one feels particularly strong about.
As for myself, all I ask is that players remember that whatever shenanigans they can do, their opponents also have the option of doing. This isn't an arms race - the GM always wins those if it becomes one.
I also think a lot of it has to do with a person's motives. If someone is doing something just to break the game or break the campaign, that's not the type of player I invite. If someone actually tries to help the group and story, I could care less if they played a monkey gripping summoner that dual-wields Numerian laser rifles.
The caster who solo'd a Balor was not a human, he was a demigod.The caster in Lord of the Rings solo'd a Balor, and he was a freaking Magus. Not even a full Wizard. The elves had some high level clerics in tow too, IIRC.I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.Everything's always Tolkien's fault.
Imagine if people's impression of what a caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting was based on Tolkien.
He also wasn't a caster. He was a martial who knew a handful of spells, wore robes and a floppy hat. Dude used a sword to solve problems. "Daylight" at Helm's Deep and "Shatter" on the bridge were as epic as he got. Those are 2nd level spells. I call Celestial bloodline bloodrager!
I Think the genre thing is on the GMs table.
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I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.In Lord of the rings they talk about one man being worth more than thousand men so we cannot blame this one on Tolkien. There is a archer that one shots a dragon. A (apperantly) very high level hobbit expert that beat a gigant quasi divine spider. Tolkien have it all. He was a old cheese Ball, him.
Actually it is the magic guys that are low power in Tolkien that is why they all run around with swords.
Nah. It's because they were oathbound to not use their high power, even to oppose Sauron (who is the same as the other wizards, just actually using his power.)
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He also wasn't a caster. He was a martial who knew a handful of spells, wore robes and a floppy hat. Dude used a sword to solve problems. "Daylight" at Helm's Deep and "Shatter" on the bridge were as epic as he got. Those are 2nd level spells. I call Celestial bloodline bloodrager!The caster who solo'd a Balor was not a human, he was a demigod.The caster in Lord of the Rings solo'd a Balor, and he was a freaking Magus. Not even a full Wizard. The elves had some high level clerics in tow too, IIRC.I blame Tolkien for the constant claims of cheese at martial tools. Imagine if people's impression of what a non-caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting wasn't Boromir and instead was Beowulf.Everything's always Tolkien's fault.
Imagine if people's impression of what a caster should be able to do in a fantasy setting was based on Tolkien.
Don't forget Fire Seeds! I think that's a 6th level spell...
==Aelryinth
The game already allows and uses oversized weapons. Aelryinth seems to find dual wielding greatswords cheesy but the game allows dual wielding Dwarven double waraxe (and for dwarves it's martial...) and they are FOUR more pounds heavier per weapon. You're pretty much whipping around two Greataxes and don't even need a feat to do it.
Or for normal folk, the Flambard, a two handed weapon, can be used one handed and can therefor be used in TWF. The oversized weapon ship sailed a while ago.
Do you mean the Flamberge? That's a wavy bladed bastard sword.
Axes are always heavier then swords, but the Double Waraxe is basically just a bastard sword as well.
==Aelryinth
The game already allows and uses oversized weapons. Aelryinth seems to find dual wielding greatswords cheesy but the game allows dual wielding Dwarven double waraxe (and for dwarves it's martial...) and they are FOUR more pounds heavier per weapon. You're pretty much whipping around two Greataxes and don't even need a feat to do it.
Or for normal folk, the Flambard, a two handed weapon, can be used one handed and can therefor be used in TWF. The oversized weapon ship sailed a while ago.
Do you mean the Flamberge? That's a wavy bladed bastard sword.
Axes are always heavier then swords, but the Double Waraxe is basically just a bastard sword as well.
==Aelryinth
I meant the Flambard. Adventurers Armory. Two handed weapons. It's true it's bastardsword-like though. My point would be that they are 5-6' long, within that 'anime' weapon length for a one handed weapon and of non-eastern design.
My point is that heavier weapons(with the weight at the end) can be used in TWF (Double Waraxe) vs a slightly longer greatsword with a better distributed weight that you think is cheesy.
It seems a bit disingenuous to find a Double Waraxe TWF fine but greataxe TWF badwrongfun even though they are the same size/weight/ect just because one happens to be labeled 1 handed. They both look as 'anime' big after all.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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But since axes don't remind him of a type of entertainment he doesn't care for, they get a pass.
It's not about "I don't like it when characters can do X" (such as use improbably large weapons).
It's about "This particular mental image reminds me of something I don't like" (such as a certain type of large weapon setup reminding someone of anime).
It only looks inconsistent when using incorrect labels: label it as "I don't like using improbably large/heavy weapons/styles" and you get inconsistencies like swords being regarded differently than axes. Label it instead as "I don't like things that remind me of other things I don't like", and you see that a giant sword could remind a person of anime while an unlikely axe-wielding style isn't a prominent trope of any particular thing (other than D&D), so there's no conflict/contradiction.
Self-awareness: it benefits everyone. :)