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In a check of one of my players sheets it came to light that he was picking up new spells by buying the full cost scrolls and then paying scribing costs etc.
He has tracked these beautifully, but he has paid way over what he should have in a pile of cases - is he entitled to a refund for his error? He has it all well documented, but his documents indicate robbery so fierce that his Varisian uncles would smile.
Whats the process for him being refunded? Just mark his sheets with the adjustments?
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I would do that, Shifty. Note on his sheet where his purchases were in error, and then note a line on the ITS saying something like "Credit for over-charge on spells" -- add that to the next chronicle.
That's what I would do. There have been a lot of misconceptions about buying spells over the years, so I would never penalize a player for using a far too expensive method.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Refunding him seems like the way to go, but if there are some GMs in your/his general area not refuning the scrolls, and just paying the normal scribing costs could be an option. At least that way he would have plenty of scrolls...
But honestly, since this was obviously an honest mistake, and the character can't benefit from his mistake, just refund him.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I don't really think a refund is fair. Buying scrolls and copying from them is a valid way to gain spells. It is how wizards had to do it for years before someone convinced Mike to allow copying from an NPC's book. So it isn't like he cheated somehow. Yes he could have done it cheaper, but he didn't know of the option so he didn't take it.
If a bard bought a bunch of CLW potions for healing for a couple of levels before someone told him that wands are cheaper and CLW is on his spell list, would you let him get a refund on those? It might seem silly, but I see it as the same thing. The player didn't know he had the option so he didn't go with it. Now he knows and going forward he can take the cheaper option. He could have just as easily held onto the scrolls until the end of a scenario to see if he needed them during the scenario before he scribed them into his book.
Another example based on a session this week: A barbarian player didn't know he could just have his weapon upgraded. He was selling his previous weapon for 1/2 and buying a new upgraded weapon. The only difference between the two was the new one was keen. I caught it before we started the session and allowed him to get his money back then. If I hadn't caught it for a couple of sessions, should I still have allowed him a refund? I would say no. It was a legal transaction, just an uninformed and impractical one. It wouldn't be fair to other players to let him fix his uninformed purchase.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I don't really think a refund is fair. Buying scrolls and copying from them is a valid way to gain spells. It is how wizards had to do it for years before someone convinced Mike to allow copying from an NPC's book. So it isn't like he cheated somehow. Yes he could have done it cheaper, but he didn't know of the option so he didn't take it.
If a bard bought a bunch of CLW potions for healing for a couple of levels before someone told him that wands are cheaper and CLW is on his spell list, would you let him get a refund on those? It might seem silly, but I see it as the same thing. The player didn't know he had the option so he didn't go with it. Now he knows and going forward he can take the cheaper option. He could have just as easily held onto the scrolls until the end of a scenario to see if he needed them during the scenario before he scribed them into his book.
Another example based on a session this week: A barbarian player didn't know he could just have his weapon upgraded. He was selling his previous weapon for 1/2 and buying a new upgraded weapon. The only difference between the two was the new one was keen. I caught it before we started the session and allowed him to get his money back then. If I hadn't caught it for a couple of sessions, should I still have allowed him a refund? I would say no. It was a legal transaction, just an uninformed and impractical one. It wouldn't be fair to other players to let him fix his uninformed purchase.
I get where you are coming from, but without knowing the exact situation, what would happen to your conviction if the player was told by a PFS GM or another senior player, that buying through scrolls ins the only PFS legal option?
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I'd tell him I was sorry he was misinformed and ask him who it was that told him that because he's working on an old paradigm and I'd want to inform him of the update.
I'm sure there's lots of players/GMs that don't know you can use the NPC spellbook option as it hasn't been all that long since Mike changed it.
The player knows now and can start using that option going forward.
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I don't really think a refund is fair.
While I understand your position that seems unduly harsh to me. You're essentially punishing a player for lack of experience and knowledge.
He has ALREADY paid a price in that he was without better equipment for some scenarios. Making him continue to pay that price seems unfair.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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So if you buy a top of the line computer for $1000 that you're ok paying for because it's a good computer and your friend told you it was a good computer would you expect a refund months later when you find out you could have gotten the same parts at the store for 1/4 the price and built it yourself?
My seeker is a wizard. For at least 3/4 of his career he had to buys scrolls to scribe them into his spellbook. Should he now get a refund?
It might be a little harsh, but if it isn't illegal it shouldn't be changed and buying scrolls and scribing them are a legal thing to do. Now the player knows a cheaper way to do it and can now use it.
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Thanks guys.
I understand where Eric is coming from and my first comment was that what he had chosen was a legal but way outdated process, so technically he was compliant and not entitled to refund.
I also take the point that this is supposed to be a social game and thus a sense of goodwill might be fostered by correcting his error and ITS as a one off issue.
I will take the above commentary back and have a chat to him :)
Highly appreciate the thoughts guys, and the good advice.
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I agree with Eric on this one. There was no error made. Regardless of the social aspect, where would you draw the line? The Bard with the cure light potions as mentioned above? Perhaps the barbarian example provided, if he had already played a game?
I disagree, but I think it is unfair to penalize someone because someone gave them bad advice.
On the computer thing, it is a totally different paradigm. Now, if you are a computer technician, and bought the PC when you were perfectly capable of putting the parts together, and knew it, that is your own lookout. But if you weren't, it is a totally different thing.
He didn't have the option offered to him. He was never properly informed of his options to begin with. How is penalizing him for someone else's misinformation fair?
"Hi! You paid X amount for this item,. but the person selling it to you, despite presenting you with what appeared to be legal papers, stole it. I am going to arrest you now for possession of stolen goods."
Remember to temper justice with mercy and compassion.
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So wait, he had bought scrolls and scribed them to his spellbook, instead of gaining free spells to his book without purchase? In that case he'd be entitled to add free spells to his book, but not refund IMHO.
If however the price is altogether wrong (e.g. some might still think Oil of Bless Weapon costs 100 gp as it did in 3.5), a refund should be made. Shifty hasn't been all that clear on what the error is exactly.