marshmallow's super awesome amazing board influenced fighter fix


Homebrew and House Rules

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Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:
Simply making stamina and skill unlock available to other classes continues the process of making Fighters and Rogues useless.

Depends on how you do it. If you give rogues two each at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, and allow them to count as having five more ranks for purposes of using them, but give everyone else Rogue's current progression, everyone is powered up but the Rogue is even more so.

Which is precisely my point: I'm not saying Fighters don't need to be powered up, I'm saying that, in the context of unchanged Slayers and Brawlers powering them up this much is a mistake.

Aelryinth wrote:
The Slayer and Brawler are non-entities if you are talking a Fighter revision. You should be able to build a fighter that simply removes the need for these alternate classes entirely. There's no need to balance them...they are already optional and should cease to exist.

This is a load of b#@#!#**. Slayer and Brawler are existing classes and generally considered the best balanced of the martial classes. Also, both do things that the version of Fighter suggested does not (Sneak Attack and Unarmed Stuff, to start with) meaning people will still want to play them rather than Fighter. Why do those players deserve less consideration than Fighter players? Why should they be stuck with their favorite class being either deeply suboptimal or nonexistent?

Aelryinth wrote:
A lot of people simply consider SLayer the 'Fighter fix' and call it done. The Brawler is simply an odd version of a UA fighter that introduced a mechanic all fighters should have...the martial flexibility to call up feats at need.

Except that's not actually what the Slayer is at all, nor what it's made to be. Nor is it all the Brawler is, though there you have a bit more of a point.

Aelryinth wrote:
So, if you want to fix the fighter, you should rip out the useful mechanics from both and make a workable fighter class.

Except that that's not exactly what's going on here. Specifically, this is a Fighter Fix and billed as such, meaning it's intended to be used in the game as presented except for the Class in question. If you want a modular Class called Fighter that can also be used for either Slayer or Brawler...you write something up and note specifically that it replaces all three of those classes as well as others, probably.

It's an entirely different piece of design and the one should not be equated with the other.

Aelryinth wrote:
Oh, and yes, rip out the Combat Style from Rangers and use that, too. Rangers should have stolen it from Fighters, we shouldn't even HAVE to reclaim being best at combat feats!

*sighs*

Again, this is not something that should be done while leaving the Ranger the same and billing it as a 'Fighter Fix' and nothing else.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Changes:

Gave one free exotic weapon proficiency.

Sure, that works.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Skills are 4+ INT.

Cool. :)

master_marshmallow wrote:

Combat style feat progression removed, instead the fighter can choose feats freely from his combat style without meeting prerequisites, so long as he does so with his bonus feats. New style added: finesse.

Bonus feat progression restored to normal.

The combat styles are quite a bit more elegant now, but more powerful as well...perhaps not too much more powerful, but it depends. I still don't see the need or insistence on them, though.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Armor training now improves the actual bonus of the armor, rather than the max DEX. Grants DR that slowly scales up to 10, along with scaling fortification.

The DR is a bit much. As is the fortification, IMO.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Weapon training tweaked slightly, no more bypassing various DRs, but weapon specific feats apply to all weapons of a weapon group, so long as it is one of the fighter's chosen weapon groups.

Again, sure, that works.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Couldn't part with maneuver training. It remains unchanged.

The basic problem of too many Class Features all combining to make this version too powerful as compared to other martial Classes. It's got too much and needs to lose something unless to revamp every non-spell-casting class in the game in a similar fashion (okay, slightly less extravagantly, but still).

master_marshmallow wrote:
The spell defensive abilities now come online at regular increments, at odd levels. One more was added.
Seems reasonable enough in and of itself.

Really though, it's not that the fighter has too many class features compared to other classes, it's that those class features all do something small.

On other classes, let's say smite evil, you get a boost to attack, damage, AC, and CMD all with one class feature. The fighter gets all of those things, but all as separate class features.

Comparatively speaking, the fighter still gets less out of his class features than any other martial class save for maybe the rogue. This is because the fighter's class features all work basically the same way.

Studied target functions in much the same way. I get bonuses on skill checks, attack/damage, and on my effects which require saving throws.

On the fighter that would be three separate abilities.

The quality of class abilities really needs to be compared before you look at quantity.

Before we go into any more hypotheticals complaining about the class being overpowered, let's see some sample builds of equal optimization levels at various levels and compare for some real perspective before it keeps being called overpowered, because really, there isn't much more there for fighters than what they already had aside from the defensive abilities which are there to make the class not god awful.

Liberty's Edge

master_marshmallow wrote:
Really though, it's not that the fighter has too many class features compared to other classes, it's that those class features all do something small.

This is definitely true of the core Fighter...less so of your version.

master_marshmallow wrote:
On other classes, let's say smite evil, you get a boost to attack, damage, AC, and CMD all with one class feature. The fighter gets all of those things, but all as separate class features.

Totally true...of the core Fighter. Your version at the moment has Armor Training and Weapon Training, which, at the moment, together are on par with Barbarian Rage + Invulnerable Rager DR (both kicking in a little later). And then you have 11 Feats (that you don't need the prerequisites for), maneuver training, all the anti-magic stuff and Martial Flexibility...all in exchange for 10 Rage Powers. Rage Powers are wonderful, but they aren't as good as all that put together...heck, the Anti-Magic stuff is three or four Rage Powers right there.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Comparatively speaking, the fighter still gets less out of his class features than any other martial class save for maybe the rogue. This is because the fighter's class features all work basically the same way.

Certainly true of the core Fighter, less so about your version.

master_marshmallow wrote:

Studied target functions in much the same way. I get bonuses on skill checks, attack/damage, and on my effects which require saving throws.

On the fighter that would be three separate abilities.

Yeah...but if the Fighter got all of them and got three others in addition in exchange for Studied Target it'd still be unbalanced.

Now, let's say you had a Slayer Archetype that gave up Sneak Attack for Martial Flexibility and the ability to use Studied Target on skills and Save DCs, but got your anti-magic stuff, Maneuver Training, and got to add it to AC instead, and as DR as well. Would that be balanced?

Because what I just described? That's almost exactly what your Fighter does. I mean, it also gives up some skills per level for Heavy Armor Proficiency (and the ability to use it for Combat Styles), and Exotic Weapon Proficiency...but other than that, that description is damn close.

master_marshmallow wrote:
The quality of class abilities really needs to be compared before you look at quantity.

I am looking at quality.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Before we go into any more hypotheticals complaining about the class being overpowered, let's see some sample builds of equal optimization levels at various levels and compare for some real perspective before it keeps being called overpowered, because really, there isn't much more there for fighters than what they already had aside from the defensive abilities which are there to make the class not god awful.

Sure, build a Fighter and I'll build a slayer or Brawler as close to them as possible and we can compare.


One thing I did to help Fighters outside of combat (aside from giving them more skill points) was to change their Bonus Feats to include all feats, not just combat feats. Now the fighter doesn't need to wait till odd levels to get generic feats, like Skill Focus or Additional Traits. It's worked great so far, and my players are happy with it.


I think your suggestion is getting mixed results is because you haven't actually stated what you are intending to repair with your 'fighter fix'.

If your goal is to make the fighter a class that's able to keep up with the other martial classes, then your fix is overkill. On the bright side, your new fighter is the undisputed king of non-magical combat. The downside is that you've pillaged the ranger, slayer, brawler and barbarian for class features to the point where there's minimal reason to ever play them. You've essentially invalidated the existence of four other classes to make the fighter better.

If your goal is to make the fighter a class that's able to keep up with primary spellcasters in the mid to late game then I'd say you're more on target, but then I have to wonder what you plan on doing with the other martial classes to make those equally good. You've already stolen most of their class features, so you'd have to actually design a lot of new class features for them to be equally 'super awesome' as the new fighter.

I think you'll be better off if you first apply relatively small changes to bring the fighter up on the same level as the barbarian, the brawler and the slayer, and then apply system-wide changes to make all the martials better able to keep up with spellcasters. I threw together a few concepts that have been brewing in my head for a while to give you some idea what I have in mind. Most are at least inspired from reading various other fighter fixes over the years. I see some of the suggestions are things you've already changed, but I put it all in there so you get the general gist of my idea.

Changes that would make the fighter more attractive without stepping on the toes of the other martials:

Give them 4 skill points per level and a better skill list. Perception and Sense Motive are crucial for a bodyguard, Knowledge: Local is a key skill for a mercenary or city guard, and Diplomacy & Intimidate is important for any officer that wants to inspire his men - the bad officers just use intimidate.

Create a class feature that allows fighters to make competitive knowledge checks, but only when recognizing the weaknesses of monsters. Perhaps he can use his fighter level as a modifier to make untrained knowledge checks made to identify monsters, or use his Sense Motive or Perception check in place of a knowledge check to recognize weaknesses? The fighter shouldn't be "the knowledge guy", but he should have a decent idea of how to hurt whatever slavering beasty beastie the party just ran into.

Allow them to apply the benefits of weapon focus/specialization/improved critical to all weapons in a weapon group. Fighters shouldn't be shackled to a single weapon.

Allow them to retrain the weapon groups akin to the 3.5 warblade. Because fighters still shouldn't be shackled to a single weapon.

Add a class feature that lets you use your charisma modifier or your wisdom modifier on will saves, whichever is higher. This adds more support for the charismatic officer-type fighter, and means that the traditional 7 CHA martial can now go with 12 charisma and 7 wisdom instead. Fighters willingly charge in the face of dragons, they really shouldn't be expected to have above average wisdom.

Add a class feature that improves their will save. Straight good will save progression is perhaps a bit too much, but you could change the bravery bonus to work on all will saves?

Finally, fighters should have a way to qualify for feats without meeting the ability score prerequisites, ideally without going "Have some style feats!". That's the ranger's shtick, and a prewritten list of feats doesn't work very well with the fighter's "the sky's the limit" philosophy on combat feats.

Once you've gotten your fighter on the same level as the other classes it's time to apply some system-wide changes to help martials stay relevant in the mid to late game. I'd suggest looking to either Dreamscarred's maneuver system or the mythic rules for inspiration.


The goal of this class was to give the fighter better defenses, and more things to do out of combat.

Martial Flexibility gives him more options in combat.


master_marshmallow wrote:

The goal of this class was to give the fighter better defenses, and more things to do out of combat.

Martial Flexibility gives him more options in combat.

That... Doesn't really add up to the current version of your fix.

The only thing I can see on your fighter that grants him more things to do outside of combat is the skill list, and Shatter Spell (which is Spell Sunder on crack).

Combat Style adds offensive combat options, not defensive ones. Maneuver training primarily adds offensive bonuses. Martial Flexibility adds a wealth of offensive options in combat. All of the above are useless outside of combat.

Similarly, Shake Spell, Shatter Spell, Spell Armor (ugh), and Spell Parry are all combat options, though these at least are primarily defensive abilities. I think you should drop the style feats and martial flexibility and instead try to flesh out this section. It is by far the most interesting of your changes to the fighter.


Kudaku wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

The goal of this class was to give the fighter better defenses, and more things to do out of combat.

Martial Flexibility gives him more options in combat.

That... Doesn't really add up to the current version of your fix.

The only thing I can see on your fighter that grants him more things to do outside of combat is the skill list, and Shatter Spell (which is Spell Sunder on crack).

Combat Style adds offensive combat options, not defensive ones. Maneuver training primarily adds offensive bonuses. Martial Flexibility adds a wealth of offensive options in combat. All of the above are useless outside of combat.

Similarly, Shake Spell, Shatter Spell, Spell Armor (ugh), and Spell Parry are all combat options, though these at least are primarily defensive abilities. I think you should drop the style feats and martial flexibility and instead try to flesh out this section. It is by far the most interesting of your changes to the fighter.

Changed a lot of stuff.

Shatter Spell is not Spell Sunder on crack, it has the exact same wording as spell sunder. The only difference is that the fighter has to spend Martial Flexibility, and the barbarian has to rage cycle.

Spell Parry and Improved Spell Parry I can see that statement working for, but are they really overpowered compared to something like a paladin who can use Dispel Magic?

As for the changes, a lot of things got removed and replaced with things from various fighter archetypes. Maneuver training is meant to come from the Maneuver Mastery of the Lore Warden. Most of the defensive abilities are taken from the Unbreakable. Lastly the skill list and 4+ skills are taken from the Tactician.

Bravery is back, and scales up to +6, and works against all mind-affecting effects like the Unflinching ability of the Unbreakable.

The only really 'new' thing in there is the Spell Shatter line of abilities, meant to be there for defensive purposes.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Shatter Spell is not Spell Sunder on crack, it has the exact same wording as spell sunder. The only difference is that the fighter has to spend Martial Flexibility, and the barbarian has to rage cycle.

Don't have time to reread the class right now so I'll just reply to this and post more feedback later.

Thing is that you shouldn't automatically assume the barbarian is rage cycling. First of all rage cycling is very unintuitive (I get angry, then stop, then get angry, then stop - all in the same six seconds? what?) and many players never use it at all. Secondly, unless the barbarian is using gear or very deliberate multiclassing specifically to counter fatigue, rage cycling doesn't come online at level 17. Finally, spell sunder has two other rage powers as prerequisites while all fighters get Shatter Spell, for free, by default. It is very much Spell Sunder on crack.

I really like the idea of looking to the fighter archetypes for more powers instead of borrowing from other classes. There's a lot of archetype features that would work perfectly well in the default fighter.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The barbarian gets Superstitious. That one Rage Power is worth the Fighter's entire line of anti-magic stuff.

The Fighter still doesn't have a movement bonus or option, just "I'm not a sloth in heavy armor." Which basically means, "I get a +1 AC bonus and can act normally."

Invalidates the Ranger? how so?
This fighter fix still gets no bonuses to skills, even with more skill points.
In his favored Terrains, the Ranger will outperform him on anything.
On skill checks vs Favored Enemies, the Ranger will ALWAYS be better...and he has more skill points!

And he has SPELLS and can MAKE MAGIC ITEMS!
In addition to having a built-in buffable fighting partner OR being able to give away his FE bonus to his friends.

The ranger can do what the fighter wants to do in most cases better then the fighter, while there is NO WAY the fighter is going to surpass the ranger at ranger stuff. The only thing he's lacking here is specifically anti-magical stuff. In every other category, he's basically an out-performer.

Seriously, way too much hyperbole and focus on brawler and slayer, and 'stealing' class features. Making use of existing rules so that people understand quickly what is going on is the best way to handle things like rebuilds.

The Ranger stole Combat Style Feats from the Fighter before the Fighter ever got to use them. They should always have been a fighter thing. There's literally no defense on this point. Why would a Ranger be better at combat feats then a Fighter?
Studied Target is better then Weapon Groups all the way around, because again it applies to any weapon. It's technically better then Favored Enemy. Sneak Attack on top for a viable stealth option, and reward for teamwork? For free? The fighter has to spend feats for stuff like that, or pick up class levels!
Martial Flexibility should have been a fighter option from day 1. The fact it came out with the Brawler is a non-issue. The Brawler is simply a fighter build that focuses on UA, full stop. You could make a Brawler sub with 2, MAYBE 3 feats. There was never any reason to build a class for it.

The Ranger, Paladin and Barbarian are the best balanced of the martial builds, with offensive, defensive and non-combat utility . The Fighter's goal is to get up there with those classes. SLayer and Brawler are basically non-issues.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

Kudaku wrote:

I think your suggestion is getting mixed results is because you haven't actually stated what you are intending to repair with your 'fighter fix'.

If your goal is to make the fighter a class that's able to keep up with the other martial classes, then your fix is overkill. On the bright side, your new fighter is the undisputed king of non-magical combat. The downside is that you've pillaged the ranger, slayer, brawler and barbarian for class features to the point where there's minimal reason to ever play them. You've essentially invalidated the existence of four other classes to make the fighter better.

If your goal is to make the fighter a class that's able to keep up with primary spellcasters in the mid to late game then I'd say you're more on target, but then I have to wonder what you plan on doing with the other martial classes to make those equally good. You've already stolen most of their class features, so you'd have to actually design a lot of new class features for them to be equally 'super awesome' as the new fighter.

I think you'll be better off if you first apply relatively small changes to bring the fighter up on the same level as the barbarian, the brawler and the slayer, and then apply system-wide changes to make all the martials better able to keep up with spellcasters.

This, this, a thousand times this! I've been trying to say exactly this for my whole time in this thread, but Kudaku puts it better.

As for the new version of the Fighter Fix:

Well, the DR went away, so that's good...but just keeping the same chassis otherwise and throwing on a bunch of the defensive abilities Kudaku suggested is not an improvement. His suggestions were made with the base Fighter in mind, sorta instead of your suggestions, adding them on top of the existing changes just exacerbates the problem.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Getting Bravery to Will saves is basically a strong Will save. You may as well just give them the strong will save and remove bravery entirely.

Stay away from Ability scores to saves. They rapidly become imbalanced. Better to have bonuses that work off armor/weapon training, bravery, or expertise.

The problem with weapon groups is that weapon groups are find as themes, and stupid as far as usefulness and functionality.

A PC has 2-4 weapons he will use over all weapons. Those are his Primary Weapon Group.

He has other weapons that are similar to those weapons. Those are his secondary weapon groups. That's how the weapons should be divided. Applying a bonus to 'all large swords' is dumb. having the bonus get smaller and smaller with each group is dumb.

The problem with weapon spec is it is a 4 feat chain. Make it one feat that scales and he can actually take it on more then one weapon if he cares to. As far as TWF, simply make a note that any bonuses that apply to the main weapon, also apply to the second when TWF, and you can actually have a guy fighting Long and Short, instead of always having to have identical weapons.

On your builds, I'd give them training feats at every level they dont' get a combat feat, and just make a pool of 'training feats' - things like the save boosters, movement options, endurance, etc....general feats that help fill in weaknesses.
Then give them bonuses with your pool of feats.

I.e. Iron Will is improved by Bravery Bonus.
Endurance automatically upgrades to Die Hard at Weapon Training 2.
Fleet is multiplied by your armor training bonus.

Etc.

Tie them into the fighter.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:
The barbarian gets Superstitious. That one Rage Power is worth the Fighter's entire line of anti-magic stuff.

Eh. Superstition is really nice, but it's not as good as you're implying. If given the choice betwen Superstition and both Spell sunder and Spell Resistance, most would pick the latter. And that's only two of the Fighter's anti-magic things.

Aelryinth wrote:
The Fighter still doesn't have a movement bonus or option, just "I'm not a sloth in heavy armor." Which basically means, "I get a +1 AC bonus and can act normally."

This is true. Of course, neither do any other non-spellcasters beyond a bonus to movement speed. So...if you want to do this, making it a general option makes things much better and more balanced than making such a thing Fighter only.

Aelryinth wrote:

Invalidates the Ranger? how so?

This fighter fix still gets no bonuses to skills, even with more skill points.
In his favored Terrains, the Ranger will outperform him on anything.
On skill checks vs Favored Enemies, the Ranger will ALWAYS be better...and he has more skill points!

The more skill points is legitimate, but the simple fact is that those bonuses are very situational. In practice, they usually only apply to Perception, Stealth, and Survival, and while that's nice...it hardly makes up for the revamped Fighter's advantages.

Aelryinth wrote:

And he has SPELLS and can MAKE MAGIC ITEMS!

In addition to having a built-in buffable fighting partner OR being able to give away his FE bonus to his friends.

Yep, all true, and all good things about being a Ranger. He lacks any general equivalent for Weapon Training, gets far less Feats than the Fighter, and has an AC easily 6 points lower vs. this particular build. He also lacks Martial Flexibility and anything approaching the Fighter's defensive or anti-magic options.

Aelryinth wrote:
The ranger can do what the fighter wants to do in most cases better then the fighter, while there is NO WAY the fighter is going to surpass the ranger at ranger stuff. The only thing he's lacking here is specifically anti-magical stuff. In every other category, he's basically an out-performer.

Nope. Well, as compared to the corebook Fighter, this is somewhat true...but this version? Just no. He's a bit better at skills, and vastly worse at combat. As the Rogue taught us...this combination does not make for a fun or effective class.

Aelryinth wrote:
Seriously, way too much hyperbole and focus on brawler and slayer, and 'stealing' class features. Making use of existing rules so that people understand quickly what is going on is the best way to handle things like rebuilds.

Sure. The problem isn't that the Fighter stole Class Features, though, the problem is that he style a bunch of the best of them (in a couple of cases defining ones) from three different Classes and added them all together on top of what he already got.

It's not the concept of stealing them that's the problem, it's the sheer volume of it.

Aelryinth wrote:

The Ranger stole Combat Style Feats from the Fighter before the Fighter ever got to use them. They should always have been a fighter thing. There's literally no defense on this point. Why would a Ranger be better at combat feats then a Fighter?

Studied Target is better then Weapon Groups all the way around, because again it applies to any weapon. It's technically better then Favored Enemy. Sneak Attack on top for a viable stealth option, and reward for teamwork? For free? The fighter has to spend feats for stuff like that, or pick up class levels!
Martial Flexibility should have been a fighter option from day 1. The fact it came out with the Brawler is a non-issue. The Brawler is simply a fighter build that focuses on UA, full stop. You could make a Brawler sub with 2, MAYBE 3 feats. There was never any reason to build a class for it.

Okay, here's the thing: Why should Fighters get these things?

Because they're cool and effective? If that's your logic, they should clearly also get 9-level casting.

Because they're thematically appropriate? There you might have a better point, but if we add every possible thematically appropriate addition to the Fighter we wind up with an unwieldy mess.

There's this little thing called 'game balance' and while the current fighter is very unbalanced on the low end, adding every possible thing takes things too far in the other direction.

Aelryinth wrote:
The Ranger, Paladin and Barbarian are the best balanced of the martial builds, with offensive, defensive and non-combat utility . The Fighter's goal is to get up there with those classes. SLayer and Brawler are basically non-issues.

Slayer and Brawler (especially Slayer) are usually included in that list alongside the three you cite, so yeah, they are in fact relevant.


Aelryinth wrote:
SLayer and Brawler are basically non-issues.

I was going to write a long reply going through each of your points in detail until I got to this part. If this really does accurately reflect your perspective, then I can't imagine that we'll see eye to eye on this. I think we're better off simply agreeing to disagree.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
This, this, a thousand times this! I've been trying to say exactly this for my whole time in this thread, but Kudaku puts it better.

Thanks!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Spell resistance is a thing that is possible for the Monk. most monk players loathe it, because you have to roll against receiving buffs and healing.

Superstitious means you don't fail saves. Thats' considerably more useful.

The Ranger has FE. That is the equivalent to Weapon Groups. And generally, superior to it.

Situational bonuses to key skills are extremely important and useful. Having more skill points for stuff that might apply to combat, but which you fail at against any other class and against monsters with normally much higher stat modifiers is not going to make any class stronger.

The ranger's AC is not going to be 6 points lower. That is, quite simply, a myth and hyperbole. If anything, because he can make his own defensive items at half cost with a feat, saves and AC will be equal or higher, if the Ranger desires it. his choice. Not because of class.

Martial Flexibilty is a utility ability allowing adaptation in combat. It doesn't contribute to bigger numbers. It allows you to Weapon spec an item you normally don't, or have a key combat feat that might be useful in a particular instance. It's not going to give you bigger numbers. You can't even access Skill Focus with it.

It's the equivalent of a first level spell effect. Your comparison is at best going to be to rudimentary spellcasting for the ranger and the paladin.

Studied and Favorite Enemy get around the reliance on weapons to deal damage. They work with anything, and get more flexible with levels, while Weapon groups get LESS flexible.

The other classes introduced mechanics fighters should have had from the get-go. Combat Style Feats - the fighter should have had this from day 0. The ability to grab feats in emergencies...yeah, that should have been there. A more versatile and flexible form of weapon groups...martial flex helps, still needs polish.

More skill points? Without skill bonuses, just flavor, letting the fighter do what he's thematically supposed to without penalties. It's almost a non-issue. Without skill bonuses, skill points are just dressing. As a non-magic class, he should have more then a caster. That's just fairness. In every thematic piece, if you don't have spells, you find another way to be useful, which means you pick up skills the casters don't have time to do. That's what the fighter should have.

The entire idea of the SLayer can be done with a fighter with feats he could trade out for some backstab damage. Something like: At level 3, you gain +2d6 SA. This SA improves by +1d6 for every iterative attack you gain from fighter levels...thus ending at 6d6.
Or you could start it at 1d6 and improve by d6 every weapon training level, ending at 20th with 6d6.
Easy to do.

The whole idea of the Brawler is simply a close combat fighter. martial flexibility is a great mechanic the core fighter, the master of feats, should always have had. It takes next to NO work to make a UA fighter and stay on theme. The only thing unique about the class is an ability the fighter should always have had.

So, I don't see the problem. Spell Sunder is nothing more then a Rage Power...it's a feat equivalent. A combat feat, in an even world. Thematically, he should have had access to it all along as well. For the no-magic class, he had no anti-magic options at all.

So, meh. I place no value on the slayer and brawler. Combat wise, they are fine...but they are irrelevant. Their task can and should be done by a base fighter build...or a ranger build. They were basically attempts to see what could be done to bring a fighter up to par...well, bring the fighter up to par and you don't need them.

Slayer and brawler don't really have defensive options, they don't have healing or recovery options. The slayer has a teamwork/universal combat bonus, with skill points, and the Brawler has versatility in combat.

That's it. That's nowhere near as well rounded as paladin, ranger and barbarian. They are not the bar. They are test cases for things the fighter should have.

==Aelryinth


I'm super confused, it's like all these responses haven't read the new document.

I honestly would rather have the Endurance + Die Hard combo that the Unbreakable gets in place of Bravery.

Most of the anti magic stuff is gone, and the fighter instead cab just waste resources to re roll saves.

The spell shatter ability us the only one left.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

When you redo the build, you need to repost the link so we don't have to go looking for it!

---Make new feats for the fighter. You can't fix the fighter truly without feat fixes. I came to that realization with my own Fighter Fix. His choices were simply too lame.

==Aelryinth


I think the feat Favored Defense needs to be cited because a ranger who doesn't take it is just fooling himself. It adds your best favored enemy damage to your AC as a dodge bonus, meaning you'll be getting anywhere from +2-4 at early levels up to a free +10 AC for casting your Instant Enemy.

Terrain Bond is also a thing, lasts all day, and gives the ranger his skill bonuses everywhere he goes, including initiative checks and all his skill checks.

Then there's the healing and Blessing of the Salamander, for even better combat and out of combat utility.

Even with my fix the way it was, the ranger is still far superior to the fighter.

Spellshatter is actually a fighter feat, and it let's him use Spell Sunder. I'm not robbing the barbarian ability, I'm making something useful the fighter can already do easier to access.

new version

Updated again. Weapon Training is less wordy, and no longer affects combat maneuvers at all, meaning maneuver training is all he's got.

Militant Expertise got a buff, expanding who it can be used on as a Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate check, as well as allowing it to count as your Leadership score.

Fighter's cunning now grants Endurance and Die Hard, because the Unbreakable gets it.

Bravery is once again gone.

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:

Spell resistance is a thing that is possible for the Monk. most monk players loathe it, because you have to roll against receiving buffs and healing.

Superstitious means you don't fail saves. Thats' considerably more useful.

Than SR? Yes. Than SR + Spell Sunder? I think not.

Aelryinth wrote:
The Ranger has FE. That is the equivalent to Weapon Groups. And generally, superior to it.

Only vs. Favored Enemies or by spending 3rd level spell slots.

Aelryinth wrote:
Situational bonuses to key skills are extremely important and useful. Having more skill points for stuff that might apply to combat, but which you fail at against any other class and against monsters with normally much higher stat modifiers is not going to make any class stronger.

Uh...having more skill points is nice because it lets you be maxed in more skills, which keeps most skills pretty relevant.

Aelryinth wrote:
The ranger's AC is not going to be 6 points lower. That is, quite simply, a myth and hyperbole. If anything, because he can make his own defensive items at half cost with a feat, saves and AC will be equal or higher, if the Ranger desires it. his choice. Not because of class.

Uh...I was talking about this Fighter re-build (not the core Fighter), which explicitly gives +5 AC as a Class Feature. And then adding in the +1 AC difference Heavy Armor makes. So...no, that's not hyperbole.

Also...Craft Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item being available to a Ranger but not a Fighter is a theoretical advantage, but not any more of a real one than Fighters theoretical 'I never run out of resources.' Why? Because Rangers are basically the worst casters ever to take those Feats, so if there are any 6-level or better casters in the group, they will take that Feat instead, which makes taking it a bad idea, and is equally helpful to the Ranger and Fighter. So it's only relevant in solo games or other very niche circumstances.

Aelryinth wrote:
Martial Flexibilty is a utility ability allowing adaptation in combat. It doesn't contribute to bigger numbers. It allows you to Weapon spec an item you normally don't, or have a key combat feat that might be useful in a particular instance. It's not going to give you bigger numbers. You can't even access Skill Focus with it.

It absolutely does give situational abilities that effectively increase DPR and similar things by quite a bit, though. With Blindfight being the classic example.

Aelryinth wrote:
It's the equivalent of a first level spell effect. Your comparison is at best going to be to rudimentary spellcasting for the ranger and the paladin.

Uh...'have any Feat I want' is a 3rd level spell, actually. The much vaunted Paragon Surge. Making it only combat Feats probably drops it to 2nd level...but still.

Aelryinth wrote:
Studied and Favorite Enemy get around the reliance on weapons to deal damage. They work with anything, and get more flexible with levels, while Weapon groups get LESS flexible.

Yeah, the problem with this is that all characters get screwed by losing their primary weapon because enhancement bonuses are so important. Fighters getting more screwed is a downside, but they're hardly crippled by it.

Aelryinth wrote:
The other classes introduced mechanics fighters should have had from the get-go. Combat Style Feats - the fighter should have had this from day 0. The ability to grab feats in emergencies...yeah, that should have been there. A more versatile and flexible form of weapon groups...martial flex helps, still needs polish.

Possibly. This isn't necessarily relevant, though.

Aelryinth wrote:
More skill points? Without skill bonuses, just flavor, letting the fighter do what he's thematically supposed to without penalties. It's almost a non-issue. Without skill bonuses, skill points are just dressing. As a non-magic class, he should have more then a caster. That's just fairness. In every thematic piece, if you don't have spells, you find another way to be useful, which means you pick up skills the casters don't have time to do. That's what the fighter should have.

Again, no disagreement that Fighters should have more skill points. though, also again, 'more than any spellcaster' is silly. Full BAB and d10 HD make up some spells on a 3/4 BAB class.

Aelryinth wrote:

The entire idea of the SLayer can be done with a fighter with feats he could trade out for some backstab damage. Something like: At level 3, you gain +2d6 SA. This SA improves by +1d6 for every iterative attack you gain from fighter levels...thus ending at 6d6.

Or you could start it at 1d6 and improve by d6 every weapon training level, ending at 20th with 6d6.
Easy to do.

Sure. If you want to build a Fighter where Slayer's a valid Archetype then do so. That's not what this Fighter was billedc as or designed as, though.

Aelryinth wrote:
The whole idea of the Brawler is simply a close combat fighter. martial flexibility is a great mechanic the core fighter, the master of feats, should always have had. It takes next to NO work to make a UA fighter and stay on theme. The only thing unique about the class is an ability the fighter should always have had.

Uh...no. Scaling unarmed damage, knockout, and brawler's strike beg to disagree.

Aelryinth wrote:
So, I don't see the problem. Spell Sunder is nothing more then a Rage Power...it's a feat equivalent. A combat feat, in an even world. Thematically, he should have had access to it all along as well. For the no-magic class, he had no anti-magic options at all.

Sure, I have no objection to the Fighter having any one of the listed things, it's the 'all of them' that's always been the issue.

Aelryinth wrote:
So, meh. I place no value on the slayer and brawler. Combat wise, they are fine...but they are irrelevant. Their task can and should be done by a base fighter build...or a ranger build. They were basically attempts to see what could be done to bring a fighter up to par...well, bring the fighter up to par and you don't need them.

And, again, b@##*&#@. Slayer is an excellent out-of-combat Class and even Brawler isn't bad, and both have thematically fun sets of abilities that work well together and make them effective Classes that do things that Fighter doesn't necessarily.

Aelryinth wrote:

Slayer and brawler don't really have defensive options, they don't have healing or recovery options. The slayer has a teamwork/universal combat bonus, with skill points, and the Brawler has versatility in combat.

That's it. That's nowhere near as well rounded as paladin, ranger and barbarian. They are not the bar. They are test cases for things the fighter should have

I'm not gonna argue details, but they're in the same rough league.

Liberty's Edge

As for the most recent re-build:

I actually like the defensive and anti-magic stuff, as well as Militant Expertise. All very solid.

The issue is still too much offensive stuff stacking with itself. Specifically, still Martial Flexibility + Combat Style + Maneuver Training + Weapon Training. I'd ditch some of that.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

As for the most recent re-build:

I actually like the defensive and anti-magic stuff, as well as Militant Expertise. All very solid.

The issue is still too much offensive stuff stacking with itself. Specifically, still Martial Flexibility + Combat Style + Maneuver Training + Weapon Training. I'd ditch some of that.

Rather than ditching it all together, I nerfed it.

You now need to have both Maneuver Training and Weapon Training to be good at both DPR and Combat Maneuvers.

As for Martial Flexibility and Combat Style, these are the abilities that coupled together actually make the fighter worth playing. Otherwise he is strictly inferior to the ranger's superior options not needing prerequisites and inferior to the barbarian's superior offensive capabilities.

You gotta have both or this isn't going to fix the class.

Also am I the only one who has noticed this trend in the thread.

Aelryinth wrote:
The fighter should have always had these abilities, and had he possessed them from the start, classes like the Brawler and Slayer may have never needed to happen meaning that comparing them is irrelevant.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
The new fixes to the fighter give it the abilities of the Brawler making that new class irrelevant. What the fighter should have had is irrelevant.

I understand where both points are coming from. The only thing the fighter has that he got from the Brawler now is the Combat Style, and the Martial Flexibility. Brawler's can still bypass DR, scale their weapon dice up, use knocout, and have Awesome Blow. They also have Maneuver Training on their own. Not to mention a free Dodge bonus that goes up to +5, strictly more powerful than the fighter's.

Fighters in place of those abilities get armor training, weapon training, and a couple defensive abilities. The big one being the Spell Shatter.

Comparatively speaking, the classes are about equal, with the Brawler having more in combat offensive abilities derived from his class where the fighter has to come up with his own schtick with his extra feats. The fighter doesn't get Knockout or Awesome Blow, but no one has brought those up yet because apparently the only reason to play the class is Martial Flexibility.

Comparing to the slayer is a joke, especially now that the skills have been docked. That doesn't even include the fact that the slayer's abilities are based on Intelligence and inherently lead the slayer to having more skills.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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A fighter build has to address the following:

How's the offense?:
Paladins: Ability to nova with smite, semi-Nova with spells and sword bond, sword bond elective powers.
Rangers: Superb with FE; FE on demand to Nova at later levels; more FE at later levels; semi-Nova/buff with spells, Animal Companion
Barbs: Rage, Witch Hunter, Pounce, Strength Surge, Overwhelming rage, Ghost touch; COME AND GET ME options.

Fighter: Weapon Training, possible SPec.
===========================================================
When do they start getting offensive bonuses?
Paladins, smite at 1, spells at 4, sword bond at 5.
Rangers, FE at 1, Animal Companion at 1
barbs: Rage at 1, Rage powers later.

Fighters: WEapon Training or Spec at 4th. UGH.
================================================
Defenses-Saves and spell defenses.
Paladins: Good Fort, Will, Cha to all saves, immunities to mental stuff, energy resistance and buff spells.
Rangers: Good Fort, Reflex, Evasion works off them, buff spells.
Barbs: Good Fort, Rage boost to Will, Superstitious option (awesome), Trap Sense to Reflex, energy immunity, spell sundering, rage options for immunity to some effects.

Fighters: Good Fort, scaling bonus vs fear not even equal to a good Will save.
============================================
Defenses - AC, DR
Paladins: Deflection boost when smiting, buff spells for AC/DR
Ranger: buff spells for AC
Barb: Rage Powers to buff Nat AC, dodge AC, DR by level/rage powers

Fighter: Scaling bonus to include Dex to AC in armor. Must have the Dex. Effectively does not apply with low dex and/or armor with high Dex limits, or no armor.
====================================
Recovery (healing, status effects)
Paladin: Lay on hands, Mercies, spells, CLW wands.
Ranger: Spellcasting, CLW wands
Barb: raging vitality, some ability to be healed faster or by magic

Fighter: -------------No.
=========================================
Movement (speed and modes)
Paladin: Spells at later levels allow flight, possible mount.
Ranger: Spells to boost speed, change form; possible animal companion.
Barb: Fast movement; rage powers can grant flight, climb, swim speeds.

Fighter: Can move at normal speed in non-mithral armor by 7th level.
===============================================
Companions?
Paladin: Option of mount or sword bond.
Ranger: Yes, option of Animal Companion, summon spells.
Barb: No.

Fighter: No.
===================================
Buff Allies?
Paladin: Aura effects; buffing spells; Aura of Justice to give away smites.
Ranger: Guide option; Animal comp to help flanking; buff spells.
Barb: Can potentially grant rage to others.

Fighter: no.
====================================
Social Skills?
Paladin: Class skills, synergy with Charisma, spells.
Ranger: FE bonuses on social skills, Intimidate class skill.
Barb: Intimidate class skill, Rage power to boost intimidate.

Fighter: Intimidate class skill
===============================
Skills?
Paladin: 2 skill points, decent skill list; spells to cover some weaknesses
Ranger: Skill Monkey; 6 skills points, broad list; FE and Fav Terrain bonuses for contested checks; spells to enhance skills.
Barb: 4 skill points; decent skill list. Rage Powers can enhance some physical skills tremendously.

Fighter: Intimidate on skill list, 2 skill points, poor list.
================================
Utility abilities
Paladin: Detect Evil on demand.
Ranger: Hide in Plain sight; Endurance
Barb: Rage boosts to certain skills; trap sense; uncanny dodge

Fighter: No.
===================================
Does he qualify to make or enhance magical items?
Paladin: Spellcasting at 4th, yes.
Ranger: Spellcasting at 4th, yes.
Barb: No.

Fighter: No.
======================================
Ability to independently affect the campaign world?
All: Role playing dependent, no class abilities towards this end.

===================================
Hit points?
Paladin: D10, gets lots of in-combat extra healing.
Ranger: D10, out of combat healing.
Barb: d12, with class DR and in combat hit point boosts, minor out of combat healing options.

Fighter: No.
===========================================
Specifically Anti-magic Stuff:
Paladins: Aura immunities; Cha to all saves; Dispel Magic as spell.
Ranger: Evasion dovetails with good reflex.
Barb: Rage boost to Will; spell sunder; witch hunter; various rage powers, SUPERSTITIOUS.

Fighter: no.
========================================
Ability to Nova?
Paladin: Declare Smite; Sword Bond; cast spells...proceed to Ownerz.
Ranger: Cast Instant Enemy; cast buff spells (+Animal Companion?); proceed to OWnerz
Barb: Rage. Proceed to Ownerz.

Fighter: No.
======================================
If Disarmed or deprived of primary weapon:
Paladin: Casts a spell or initiates sword bond on whatever he is using; Smite doesn't care.
Ranger: Buff spells and FE don't care.
Barb: Rage doesn't care.

Fighter: Loses Weapon training and weapon spec bonuses. Is now a warrior.
================================
Ability to change by day/combat, adapt vs dif foes?
Paladin: Sword bond is very flexible; prepared minor caster.
Ranger: Prepared Minor Caster.
Barb: no, but many powerful rage powers can be used repeatedly in successive combats.

Fighter: no.
-----------------------------------------------
Ability to go all day:
Paladin: Excellent because of lots of hit points/healing; long term buffs; extended duration of sword bonds; more smites
Ranger: Some longer term buffs; healing ability out of combat. Can sleep in armor! FE is constant bonus
Barb: natural DR even when out of rage; d12 HP.

Fighter: Weapon/Armor Training constant.
=================================
Gear Dependency
Paladin: Not high; sword bond, smite, buff spells.
Ranger: Not high; Skills, buff spells.
Barb: Not high; Rage, constant scaling rage powers, DR.

Fighter: High; Weapon and Armor Training don't work without gear.
=========================================

These are your criteria for making a balanced martial class.
Forget the slayer, forget the brawler.

You are balancing against the other martial core classes.

Spell Resistance + Spell Sunder should be balanced against Superstitious + Spell Sunder. THe latter comes out ahead.

If your fighter has something positive to contribute in every category above, like those classes do, even if it is just an option, then congratulations, you've got a balanced and worthy fighter remake.

If you're trying to match up to slayer/brawler, you're basically just plugging one hole per build type (skills/adaptability, respectively), leaving all the others the fighter is weak in unfilled.

So, ignore the naysayers, and balance against the other core classes, and make the fighter you'd like to play.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Post 2: The Roles of the Martial Classes (reposted)

Champion
Guardian
Master/Teacher
Warlord
Hunter
Soldier

The Champion role is also the role of the Gladiator and the Duelist. Basically, it is the ability of the fighter to go out there and defeat his enemy in single combat, be it before cheering crowds, tilting at the lists, or one-on-one combat in a formal duel.

The current fighter takes a nod to this role with his weapon mastery. With a weapon in hand that he loves and has trained with, a fighter is a superb champion in the martial world.

HOWEVER …this is a magical world, and so a proper champion must be able to take on magical threats. He must be able to evade magical attacks and withstand magical assaults on mind and body.

He does not have this capability as part of his class. All he is, is tough. Champions are generally focused on Strength, and Power Attack is their hallmark feat.

The class iconically best filling the Champion role is the cavalier, who can simply pick an opponent and make himself dangerous against them. The barbarian can do the same, his rage powers and rage giving him a natural buff against any foe, and Superstitious granting defense against magic.

The ranger and the paladin can also serve as superb champions, the one using FE and the other using Smite, to become the best of their kind against their specific enemies. The paladin also brings great saves and even immunities to the field, and if it's an Evil enemy, there's nobody better. In a city-based 'civilized' campaign against human opponents, there is also likely nobody more suitable then a FE:Human centered Ranger.

The Fighter tends to bring little to the table to be excellent against a particular kind of foe, he simply has constant ability, and below average to very poor defenses.
--------------------------------------

The Guardian role is equal parts sentry, bodyguard, vanguard and scout. It requires alertness, attentiveness, readiness, the ability to stave off boredom, quick reactions and intercession.

Guardians tend to have Wis as a useful stat. Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus (Perception) and Improved Initiative are probably as key as you’re going to get here.

The best Guardians tend to be barbarians and rangers, the former because they get Uncanny Dodge and the latter because they get crucial skills and skill bonuses (trying to sneak up on a ranger in favored terrain is perhaps unwise).

The Fighter has no such ability to be a guardian as part of his class. His class skills do not include something as basic as being able to perceive an enemy or assess opponents, and he certainly can’t intercede on such things.
-----------------------------------

The Master is the Melee who learns many skills…and then passes them on to others. The ability of fighters to teach martial skills to another is the key part of this, finding eager students who share their love of martial ability. The Master is a font of martial knowledge, a cunning and dangerous enemy who knows his art inside and out, and from many angles, discovers new techniques and passes them on. Expertise is their hallmark feat.

Masters tend to favor a high Int. Yet, there is very little for a Master style fighter to do in the standard class.

There is no class that truly satisfies the Master paradigm, although a Ranger’s skill points and broad list dovetails best with the idea of an intellectual warrior. The Slayer also works as sort of an intelligent warrior, using cunning via Sneak Attack and Studied opponent.
-------------------------------------------------

Where the Master is teacher, the Warlord is leader. The brilliant general, cunning strategist, and superb tactician are all hallmark roles of the fighter. The ability to guide, inspire and lead others effectively has also been a standard of the martial classes. In times of peace, they are statesmen and cunning preparers. In times of war, kings and countries turn to them to lead the way.

The Warlord maps to Charisma. But there are no fighter skills that map well to Warlord abilities. Leadership would be the closest equivalent, or the 3.5 Marshall class with its auras.

The closest PF class to a Warlord is the cavalier, who can give away teamwork benefits. The Ranger’s guide power to give away FE benefits also qualifies, as does the Paladin's Aura of Courage and ability to give away Smites. Both of these are quite limited in usefulness in mass combat scenarios.

But the Fighter has absolutely nothing to contribute, even Charisma synergy.
----------------------------------------------

The Hunter is equal parts hunter, assassin, and infiltrator. His job is to find the enemy and kill them, preferably via stealth or at minimal risk, often via use of missile weapons. They are the commandos and snipers of martial roles.

Hunters tend to focus on death via bows and crossbows. Alas, many of the supporting skills they need are not a part of the fighter class, including stealth. Deadly Aim is probably their hallmark skill, and Dexterity their key stat.

The best PF martial class for this is naturally the ranger, who can track, locate, stalk, and deliver the damage. THe Stalker also does the job, of course.

The Fighter? Not so much.
------------------------------------------------

Lastly, the Soldier. While Warlords are about leading troops, the soldier is all about teamwork and fighting alongside others as part of a greater whole. The only nod to this archetype are the Teamwork feats, most of which don’t function well unless everyone you’re fighting with also knows them.

The Soldier tends to map to Constitution. The job tends to endorse being tough as nails, dogged and persistent more than cleverness, agility, or brute strength. As long as you can endure, you can fight. Armor Training, Endurance and the Teamwork feats would be the hallmark of soldiers. The Fighter makes a better soldier than any other martial role…but then, so does a standard NPC Warrior.

Both Fighters and Cavaliers make great soldiers…the former because they can take Teamwork feats, and the latter because they can give them away.
Stalwart, if it worked for those without Expertise, is probably the best feat for Soldiers. Brace for it! Improved Aid Another and many Teamwork feats would also qualify.

Alas, no good Will save means that easy will save effects send our low-morale Fighters fleeing for the hills. I suggest bringing paladins.
=========================================

the role the Fighter seems able to fill is to tromp after the other martial classes, and then run away from whatever they are fighting.

If you are doing a fighter build, I suggest fixing this so they can excel in a meaningful role.

==Aelryinth


So, how does this current fix size up to that?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Well, you added some utility powers, took away his normal defenses, and still left some holes.

martial manuvers gives him some ability to change for a specific encounter, faster then the other classes, but more limited in what he can do (because feats are not as good as spells).

he now has no AC advantage whatsoever...which means he now has the worst AC of the martial classes.
Still has no DR.

Being partially safe from crits and sneak attacks starting at 10th level is not a payback.

I personally loathe decreasing bonuses. For his maneuver stuff, simply make the maneuver bonus a fixed bonus at each level, and let him add another maneuver at the same bonus. Having a+3, b+2 and c+1 is annoying. Just have A, b, and c at +3 and be done with it.

He still has no ability to self-heal. He only gets an option to recover from fatigue (good if you use the stamina system, I suppose).

He still has no leadership potential.

the fact his SPell sundering stuff takes up 4 dif abilities and is the most distinctive means its pretty much the focus of the class.

He still has no damage bonus at level 1, but he's front loaded with 2 bonus feats.

profession soldier is a 'gimme' utility use.

I do like the way he can use martial flexibility uses for more then just grabbing feats.

Save rerolls are nice, but amount to, what, a +3 on the roll statistically? And he has to spend a resource. Granted, better then the ranger, but way below the barb and paladin. Also, he has no class abilities that dovetail with the saves, like Evasion.

The level 18 ability to save twice against an ongoing effect is extremely lame for something that should be the equal of a 9th level effect. He can already do this by spending a martial use from his 5th level ability.

He still has no movement options.
He still can't heal himself at all.
His one skill boost is to Profession: Soldier. He has no bonuses to skills of any sort otherwise.
He still has to meet pre-reqs for 'most combat feats'.
For School Feats, I recommend doubling the number of feats for his school, so that he doesn't have to meet the reqs on any of them.
Furthermore, you may want to simply state that Feat X automatically upgrades to feat Y, so he doesn't have to burn an extra slot.
This is a good way to take Feats all the way to level 16+.

Because his benefits are fixed, there's no way to build a dex fighter out of this, because you can't swap out starting options.

His skill list is extremely large now, for a 4 skill point class. Just sayin'.

===========================
Recommendation: You've already bit the bullet and have his martial flexibility uses available for other things (save rerolls and spell parrying).
I would go ahead and add skill rerolls to this, and some manner of self-healing or broader condition removal. The mechanic I used was to convert some damage to non-lethal, which he removes at level/hour, but obviously isn't a 'cure', and won't save him from being knocked unconscious (but still be alive). At higher levels, he could remove conditions similar to those a paladin could remove, but only on himself.
An alternate use would be for him to use it to give himself some temporary hit points for one minute.

I would expand the mechanic of his School/combat styles.
Allow him to pick BOTH his good saves as part of choosing his combat style.
Cut the skill list down to, say, eight skills. Allow him to pick any two skills to add to the list, as part of his School.
Give him a damage bonus at level 1. Call it Weapon Training 0 if you must. He needs SOMETHING.
I used 0/+1. Then I double any bonuses he has with Weapon Focus/Spec.
So, at level 2, taking Weapon Spec at level 2, he gets +1 from weapon focus, doubles his Weapon T:0, and ends up with +2 damage. Voila, +1/+2 damage with his favorite weapon.
If he gives up tower shield and heavy armor, give him 6 skill points, just like a ranger.
Kudazu's complaints about AC you can put aside. The Viking Archetype gets +1 AC per level of Armor training when using a shield. At the very least, a fighter who gives up shield and medium armor prof should get his Armor Training as a flat dodge bonus (which is basically what monks get).

Move Die Hard back to level 3 or so.

Add DR +1 per level of armor training, scale it to +5 ending at 19. Have it stack with DR from armor and feats.

An option you may like to use is: He uses his highest physical modifier for his Reflex and Fort saves, and his highest mental modifier for his Will save.

Make Weapon Groups easier to track. There's primary weapon group, and secondary weapon groups. All secondary groups have the same bonus, 1 less then the primary.

Allow the fighter to spend skill points to put weapons into his primary weapon group. Therefore, the Primary Weapon Group means 'the weapons the fighter actually uses' instead of 'a bunch of weapons similar to one weapon he likes to use.' It allows him to elect his weapon versatility on his own merit, instead of pre-judged groups.

Consider broadening the use of Armor and Weapon training to include any skill rolls concerning either subject. Thus, Armor Training could affect armorsmith rolls, and Weapon training affect Performance (weapon Drill), among other things.

Consider adding the Profession (Soldier) bonus to any Int/Wis/Cha skill dealing specifically with combat. Thus, on Sense Motive/Bluff rolls to Feint; History rolls about war; Nobility rolls about heraldry; games of war (chess), and so forth.
This makes him the best class at the mundane crafts of war, if he chooses to go that route.

use the exact same mechanic for all uses of Spell Sunder, just expand what they can do as he levels. That way, it becomes one class ability that scales, not 4 class abilities.

Remove ALL scaling class abilities from the list of comparisons. Rage Power: Natural armor getting to +3 is not on the class list, neither should be Armor Training 2. It's armor training, and it increases every 4 levels. It's ONE class feature he gets at level 3.
Note that the Fortification ability could simply be 5%/fighter level, max of 75%, right?
It's a nice little extra thing that saves him some money on magic armor.

Set Bonus Feats to the side as if thy were a spell list...because they are, the fighter's spell list equivalent. If they scaled like rage powers, we wouldn't do this. They don't, so we need to.
All levels with only bonus feats now need a class ability. This should give you some nice room to fill them in.
Since our Feats Known is now not filling up the class features with half-strength Feats, consider adding more feats in the levels without combat feats from a list of general feats applicable to the fighter. I suggest feats that involve saves, movement, endurance, or the like, including Leadership.

Your class still has no way to buff others or lead them.

==============
Fighter fixes ain't easy. You've got a solid core. Now you need to solidify it and give it the versatility of the other classes.

And it would BETTER if you could do some custom combat feats. Like, you know, Rage Powers-equivalents.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

Aelryinth wrote:
A fighter build has to address the following:

For the record, I don't disagree with this analysis. Fighter has issues and needs help.

I disagree with certain specific points (and some you're even factually wrong on...Rangers don't get an animal companion until 4th level, for example), but I agree with the basic gist. I just don't think it's ideal to go quite as far in powering them up.

For the record, my three main points of disagreement are as follows:

1. The math is pretty clear that, by mid-levels, Weapon Focus, Weapon Training, and Weapon Specialization give a Fighter as much of a bonus to hit and damage as the Barbarian gets from Rage. So they're doing fine offensively by level 5 or so when all that kicks in.

2. You're really overstating the value of being able to use Wands of CLW on the Ranger. That's only really useful very occasionally if anyone else in the party can do it, and pretty universally there'll be someone. Again, this is very much the reverse of the old 'Fighters have an advantage because they never run out of ability uses' thing, and is equally false (which is to say almost always).

3. You're also really overstating Barbarian 'utility powers' and indeed, Rage powers generally. Yes, a Barbarian can have Rage powers to add to any of the categories you list, but they sure can't add to all of them. Usually, they add to Saves, Defenses, and Offense, but nothing else.

Other than that, I basically agree.

Aelryinth wrote:

Post 2: The Roles of the Martial Classes (reposted)

Champion
Guardian
Master/Teacher
Warlord
Hunter
Soldier

This, too, I agree with. I'd argue Fighters shouldn't be able to fill all of those roles (particularly not Hunter), but you don't seem to disagree with that, so I think we agree here as well.

Just to note that I think our disagreements are more of degree than of kind.

Liberty's Edge

master_marshmallow wrote:

Rather than ditching it all together, I nerfed it.

You now need to have both Maneuver Training and Weapon Training to be good at both DPR and Combat Maneuvers.

I'm not sure the language actually supports that, but if that's the way you make it work, it's certainly less of a problem...but remains kinda inelegant.

master_marshmallow wrote:

As for Martial Flexibility and Combat Style, these are the abilities that coupled together actually make the fighter worth playing. Otherwise he is strictly inferior to the ranger's superior options not needing prerequisites and inferior to the barbarian's superior offensive capabilities.

You gotta have both or this isn't going to fix the class.

I'm not sure I agree at all. Me, I'd go a somewhat different route, dropping Combat Style and rearranging a few other options to make up for said drop.

Brawlers, after all, wind up making excellent use of Martial Flexibility without the ability to combine it with Combat Style (they debatably have both, but can't use Martial Flexibility to get TWF Feats like Double Strike unless they have enough Dex).

master_marshmallow wrote:
I understand where both points are coming from. The only thing the fighter has that he got from the Brawler now is the Combat Style, and the Martial Flexibility. Brawler's can still bypass DR, scale their weapon dice up, use knocout, and have Awesome Blow.

They lack Weapon Training, though, which is sorta important. Yes, they get 'unarmed combat damage' but that's not a very big mechanical benefit, really, since all it does is mean that a less than ideal weapon is eventually on par with the Greatsword the Fighter's had from 1st level.

master_marshmallow wrote:
They also have Maneuver Training on their own. Not to mention a free Dodge bonus that goes up to +5, strictly more powerful than the fighter's.

The Core Fighter's? Yeah. The Armor Bonus you give? No. The two are the same amount, and the Brawler's requires light armor (which hurts Str builds quite a bit).

master_marshmallow wrote:
Fighters in place of those abilities get armor training, weapon training, and a couple defensive abilities. The big one being the Spell Shatter.

Weapon Training and Spell Sunder, plus a choice of combat styles and potentially all your Feats in them rather than the three you get in one as a Brawler are hefty advantages, as are all the defensive stuff.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Comparatively speaking, the classes are about equal, with the Brawler having more in combat offensive abilities derived from his class where the fighter has to come up with his own schtick with his extra feats. The fighter doesn't get Knockout or Awesome Blow, but no one has brought those up yet because apparently the only reason to play the class is Martial Flexibility.

No, there are others, but those two aren't exactly a fair trade for Weapon Training, Spell Sunder, and the defensive advantages available (especially given how late you get Awesome Blow).

master_marshmallow wrote:
Comparing to the slayer is a joke, especially now that the skills have been docked. That doesn't even include the fact that the slayer's abilities are based on Intelligence and inherently lead the slayer to having more skills.

In terms of skills? Sure, Slayer's quite a bit better now. In terms of combat, the Fighter's got something like +6 AC and a variety of defensive options plus Martial Flexibility and way more Feats. The slayer has Sneak Attack, but that's it (and about equivalent to Martial Flexibility alone).

It's getting to the point where that's a balanced comparison, but I'm not quite sure if it's there yet. It's close, though.


So, what I'm gathering is Spell Shatter, Spell Parry, and Improved Spell Parry should all be one ability? Seems a bit much to me.

I like the idea of Combat Schools being a thing, and having different class skills tied to them, that I may use.

Militant Expertise could add 1/2 level on all those things pretty safely, the big thing about it was that it also counted as the Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate skills creating a pseudo versatile performance, as well as having your Profession Soldier score count as your leadership score.

I don't think Armor Training should include DR and fortification, one or the other is balanced. I also think DR scaling up to 5 is crappy. I can reasonably have armor training say it improves the armor's armor bonus by 1 and DR by 2 at every iteration, to a maximum of +5 AC when wearing armor and 10 DR, unless the armor is adamantine in which case DR 10+size.

Primary and Secondary weapon groups aren't really appealing to me, since the classes to compare to, the ranger and such, have the same such mechanic of having to choose which one gets the bigger bonus by picking it first. I've actually never had a problem with the weapon training the way it is.

He also only gets one bonus feat at first level, but can choose from his Combat Style freely.

I'm fine with giving him Stalwart (the Unbreakable actually gets this).

Removing afflictions is cool.

Thing is, you keep saying that the abilities he gets later are more useful at earlier levels, but I think that's true of any ability I could possibly come up with. You really, really, really seem to like front loading the class.


Massive overhaul

Combat Schools are now a thing, come on at 1st level, and has weapon training baked right in at 1st level. Class skills have been reduced, but each school comes with one included.

Armor training now also improves the DR of the armor, as the Armor Master.

Maneuver training no longer picks and chooses combat maneuvers, it just scales up to +5, as the Lore Warden.

He now gains all the abilities of the Unbreakable, tied to his martial flexibility.

Militant expertise has been buffed.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

MMM, I don't agree with the skills left behind and those with combat schools. Perception should be a fighter skill, and isn't fighter in the core list?

You could probably put a bunch of the 'new' skills to associate with a school instead. But, your call.

You may want to have the DR stack with Feats, like Stalwart (expertise =DR instead). Because, thematic.

Manuver training...the key thing is Not Provoking. That's why he picks and chooses...he doesn't provoke when using that maneuver, and gets the bonus.
I made it a function of expertise, not a class ability, FYI. That way, I could also put improved grapple and IUS as options...the key thing for both of those feats is Not Provoking.

Level 19 maneuver Mastery...ugh. level 19 ability? Plus, what happens when two fighters meet one another? This isn't a level 19 ability.

You have three spell sunder things on the table but only two in the explanation.

For level 20...I don't like the crit increase ability, because it treats weapons with different threat levels differently, the same way improved critical does.
I recommend it just set the base threat range of all his 19-20/x2 or 20/x3 weapons to 19-20 x3, and increases 18-20/x2 weapons by one die size (I.e. d8 to d10). That applies evenly to all weapons, and is a great gimme (I actually did this with Improved Critical). It makes all weapons treated equally well.
Except for the x4 exotic outliers, but we'll ignore them.

Still no healing/recovery ability.
Still no skill buffs except to Profession (soldier)
Still no leadership ability.
What can he do outside of fighting as a class ability?
still no movement options/bonus.

On Profession: Soldier - Not all fighters are soldiers. In keeping with Fighter variability, I suggest designating 2 school skills, instead of one, and the fighter gains this bonus on those School Skills. Make one in class and one out class. Indeed, it might be a theme of the School to have these associated skills - A 2h school with Knowledge (Nobility) and Profession (soldier) would be very different then one with Armorsmithing and Survival, and could well be rivals.

I suggest you do this:
Change the layout of the class 1-20.
Put all class abilities on the scale.
Off to the right, put bonus feats, like you would spells/level. Bonus feats as spellcasting! Completely separate from other class abilities.
Now, fill in all the empty spaces with stuff the fighter doesn't have.

You can even do it amusingly. At level 1, the fighter has 1 bonus feat. At level 20, he has 11! Just like a spellcaster's spells!
Oh, and I'd let the fighter retrain feats every single level if he wants to. Every 4 is simply too slow if you've made an error.

Some other ideas:
Fighters train continuously, and like they get more feats then others, they get other bonuses as well.
If Fighter is the favored class, it automatically gets an additional FC benefit (i.e. hp+skill, HP or skill+alternate, alternate+other alternate, not HP + HP).
FC benefit: The fighter puts +2 towards his CMD against manuvers. He may assign these points to any maneuver as he wishes, but no more then +10 per maneuver. He may change his choices after an extended rest each day.

If the Fighter trains to change levels or skills or feats associated with Fighter levels, he does it in half the time (and cost).
If he trains to add hit points to his Fighter hit dice, he either adds an additional hit point, or also gets it done in half the time.

etc.

If you change the layout as I suggest, you'll see more of what I see the Fighter as, and just how mucked over he is.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

MMM, I don't agree with the skills left behind and those with combat schools. Perception should be a fighter skill, and isn't fighter in the core list?

You could probably put a bunch of the 'new' skills to associate with a school instead. But, your call.

You may want to have the DR stack with Feats, like Stalwart (expertise =DR instead). Because, thematic.

Manuver training...the key thing is Not Provoking. That's why he picks and chooses...he doesn't provoke when using that maneuver, and gets the bonus.
I made it a function of expertise, not a class ability, FYI. That way, I could also put improved grapple and IUS as options...the key thing for both of those feats is Not Provoking.

Level 19 maneuver Mastery...ugh. level 19 ability? Plus, what happens when two fighters meet one another? This isn't a level 19 ability.

You have three spell sunder things on the table but only two in the explanation.

For level 20...I don't like the crit increase ability, because it treats weapons with different threat levels differently, the same way improved critical does.
I recommend it just set the base threat range of all his 19-20/x2 or 20/x3 weapons to 19-20 x3, and increases 18-20/x2 weapons by one die size (I.e. d8 to d10). That applies evenly to all weapons, and is a great gimme (I actually did this with Improved Critical). It makes all weapons treated equally well.
Except for the x4 exotic outliers, but we'll ignore them.

Still no healing/recovery ability.
Still no skill buffs except to Profession (soldier)
Still no leadership ability.
What can he do outside of fighting as a class ability?
still no movement options/bonus.

On Profession: Soldier - Not all fighters are soldiers. In keeping with Fighter variability, I suggest designating 2 school skills, instead of one, and the fighter gains this bonus on those School Skills. Make one in class and one out class. Indeed, it might be a theme of the School to have these associated skills - A 2h school with Knowledge (Nobility) and Profession...

Maneuver training changes so it no longer provokes, but now you must select different maneuvers as you progress through the class. They all benefit from the same bonus though.

Militant expertise actually applies to all social skills now, rather than forcing you to make a Profession (soldier) check instead.

It also counts as your leadership score, so I'm not sure what you are looking for as far as that front goes.

That gives him plenty to do outside of combat, he can now do social things. Also:

Pathfinder Unchained wrote:
Soldiers go where there is fighting. Individual mercenaries, guards, or marines serving aboard ships accept coin in exchange for their combat prowess. Mercenary captains in charge of whole units or armies effectively run sizable businesses. Urban organizations offering escort and guard services to wealthy nobles and merchants can also grow quite large.

The skill Profession (soldier) is not always tied to joining the army or being subject to military rank and what not.

The skill itself is used for mass combat also, making it a great leadership skill.

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of how the class skills tied to the combat schools actually worked out. I think it would be better if he just had all the class skills, and the combat school only tied to weapon groups and early access feats.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Well, what you're talking about is logistics...running a military organization.

That's not the same as giving your followers +1 Th/AC on a battlefield, i.e. a mechanical, in combat way of being a leader.

Likewise, your examples of a fighter don't include gladiators, duelists, bodyguards, law enforcement, combat instructors, weapon masters, outriders, sentinels, and many other examples of fighting professions.

Which is why I proposed moving beyond just one skill to get a bonus on, and have it tied to the school he takes. Adventurers have different priorities then soldiers, and should be allowed to emphasize them.

Also, makes great foundation for a backstory.

Since you've no class ability at level 6 or 8, why not give Leadership as a bonus feat with DM approval? However, his cohort will always be a fighter of his School, and he doesn't gain the followers unless he actively starts looking to gather and lead them.

Again, suggest adding a column to the right, and lump all bonus feats into it ala spell progression, so you can see all the gaping holes.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

I actually mostly like this version, with only a few issues.

#1: The skill list is weird. Not too big, it's about right, just weird. Perception and Sense Motive aren't on it, while Bluff and Diplomacy are. I'd switch that around. Wisdom seems more the Fighter's bag than Charisma in this version (heck, with Militant Expertise he can use it on social stuff sometimes).

#2: DR seems excessive on top of everything else Armor Mastery does. Also, I think you screwed up some levels stuff in there, with some powers kicking in a level early.

#3: Is the intent still that Maneuver Training and Combat School don't stack? Because if it is, I think there needs to a language cleanup and if it isn't...well then I'm concerned about power level again.

#4: I still feel like there's one thing to many in comparison to other martial classes. It's still just a tad bit too much. I dunno what to drop, though.

#5: This is a personal thing, but I'd go with Good Will Save over Good Reflex. Some Fighters are quick on their Feat but not all, and it feels like all should be tough-minded. This also has the advantage of making up a bit for dropping something (as suggested in #4), and for losing Bravery (terrible as it was).

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I like this much better than the version I initially saw. However, I do have the following criticisms and suggestions.

1) This fighter gets way too much at 1st level. The best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game, martial Flexibility, a bonus feat that bypasses prerequisites, and an unconditional +1/+1 bonus to your weapons of choice. And a nifty little skill bonus as the cherry on top. That's insanely good. With a two level dip, you get all of that plus an extra prereq-bypassing feat and armor training.

I suggest putting Combat School at 2nd level, the Weapon Training thing at 5th level, remove the bonus feat at 1st level, remove maneuver training, and put Armor Training at 3rd level.

2) The +1/+1 from Combat School should be its own ability again. That ability is already a page long.

3) Personally, I'd change Militant Expertise so that your Leadership score equals your Wisdom modifier plus the number of ranks of Profession (soldier). This feels more in line with the feat's normal Charsima + level.

4) It doesn't feel right that the fighter can get Signature Deed before the gunslinger. Or that they can get Grit feats so much more easily than the gunslinger.

5) Seems weird that Maneuver Training is better than the brawler's and lets your combat maneuvers not provoke an attack of opportunity when the class already makes it easy to pick up feats to do that.

6) Defiance needs to list the conditions and effects specifically. "Harmful effects" is too vague and too much of a blanket statement. Same goes for Greater Recovery.

7) Typo in Combat School: "When gaining bonus combat feats, he may select a feat available from his combat school without meet the feat’s prerequisites."

8) Minor grammar and writing style nitpick: size categories should be capitalized and "combat maneuver" should be lowercase. See Weapon Mastery.


A:

I like the 4-class comparison. Some of it leans towards finding your desired results when the other classes have to pursue specific options to gain ability in a certain categery, but I get the idea that those classes at least have the option.

Anyhow, I thought this bit below was amusing, since you didn't even mention the fighter's d10. :)

Aelryinth wrote:

Hit points?

Paladin: D10, gets lots of in-combat extra healing.
Ranger: D10, out of combat healing.
Barb: d12, with class DR and in combat hit point boosts, minor out of combat healing options.

Fighter: No.


Editing issues I can tweak later, I'm also pretty happy with the current layout.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Cyrad wrote:

I like this much better than the version I initially saw. However, I do have the following criticisms and suggestions.

1) This fighter gets way too much at 1st level. The best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game, martial Flexibility, a bonus feat that bypasses prerequisites, and an unconditional +1/+1 bonus to your weapons of choice. And a nifty little skill bonus as the cherry on top. That's insanely good. With a two level dip, you get all of that plus an extra prereq-bypassing feat and armor training.

I suggest putting Combat School at 2nd level, the Weapon Training thing at 5th level, remove the bonus feat at 1st level, remove maneuver training, and put Armor Training at 3rd level.

2) The +1/+1 from Combat School should be its own ability again. That ability is already a page long.

3) Personally, I'd change Militant Expertise so that your Leadership score equals your Wisdom modifier plus the number of ranks of Profession (soldier). This feels more in line with the feat's normal Charsima + level.

4) It doesn't feel right that the fighter can get Signature Deed before the gunslinger. Or that they can get Grit feats so much more easily than the gunslinger.

5) Seems weird that Maneuver Training is better than the brawler's and lets your combat maneuvers not provoke an attack of opportunity when the class already makes it easy to pick up feats to do that.

6) Defiance needs to list the conditions and effects specifically. "Harmful effects" is too vague and too much of a blanket statement. Same goes for Greater Recovery.

7) Typo in Combat School: "When gaining bonus combat feats, he may select a feat available from his combat school without meet the feat’s prerequisites."

8) Minor grammar and writing style nitpick: size categories should be capitalized and "combat maneuver" should be lowercase. See Weapon Mastery.

1) he does get too much, but its all minor stuff.

The fighter is the ONLY martial class that starts without a TH/Dmg bonus at level 1. Deal with it. It's like complaining that you can dip a barb for fast movement and rage rounds, 12 hp and 4 skill points at level 1!

2) Eh? Combat School could encompass SO MUCH. heh. Not long enough!

3) Making the fighter more MAD doesn't solve anything.

4)I don't think he cares about the gunslinger, but if this class could throw out the need for a gunslinger class, then that sounds excellent.

5) Feats that let you pick up a no-AoO for combat maneuvers are waaaaay too expensive for what they do. They are classic fighter feats: Fixed bonuses, don't scale, and become useless at high levels, and only niche situationally useful.
Now, he's good at multiple maneuvers, and it scales. I personally don't see the problem. 5 feats so that he can actually pull off 5 maneuvers in combat without drawing an attention is HALF HIS BONUS FEATS for a very situational skill. It's like say half of all your spells Known have to be a variant on 'charm humanoid'.
If that steps on the Brawler's toes, great...another class you don't need anymore.
It certainly doesn't make the class more powerful, merely more versatile and able to do something beyond 'whack it with a stick'.

6) This list will never stop being updated, because new spells are always coming out. ergo, impossible. Guidelines are probably good.

7/8) Formatting.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Aelryinth wrote:

1) he does get too much, but its all minor stuff.

The fighter is the ONLY martial class that starts without a TH/Dmg bonus at level 1. Deal with it. It's like complaining that you can dip a barb for fast movement and rage rounds, 12 hp and 4 skill points at level 1!
2) Eh? Combat School could encompass SO MUCH. heh. Not long enough!

3) Making the fighter more MAD doesn't solve anything.

4)I don't think he cares about the gunslinger, but if this class could throw out the need for a gunslinger class, then that sounds excellent.

5) Feats that let you pick up a no-AoO for combat maneuvers are waaaaay too expensive for what they do. They are classic fighter feats: Fixed bonuses, don't scale, and become useless at high levels, and only niche situationally useful.
Now, he's good at multiple maneuvers, and it scales. I personally don't see the problem. 5 feats so that he can actually pull off 5 maneuvers in combat without drawing an attention is HALF HIS BONUS FEATS for a very situational skill. It's like say half of all your spells Known have to be a variant on 'charm humanoid'.
If that steps on the Brawler's toes, great...another class you don't need anymore.
It certainly doesn't make the class more powerful, merely more versatile and able to do something beyond 'whack it with a stick'.

6) This list will never stop being updated, because new spells are always coming out. ergo, impossible. Guidelines are probably good.

7/8) Formatting.

1) Martial flexibility, a non-conditional +1/+1, awesome proficiencies, and a bonus feat that bypasses prerequisites are NOT "minor." Those are very awesome class features. Brawlers, gunslingers, and swashbucklers don't receive bonuses to attack and damage rolls at 1st level. Please don't make the excuse "I'm not concerned with base classes." Any other attack/damage bonus in other classes are either highly conditional or are limited use abilities.

2) The two abilities do very different things. They should be separate, if only for organizational purposes.

3) That doesn't necessarily make them MAD. Profession is a Wisdom-based skill anyway. My suggestion simply makes the math more in line with the feat. Otherwise, a fighter can have nearly double the leadership score without putting much investment in Profession (soldier) than a bard of comparable level with a high Charisma.

5) I don't really understand anything you say here. Not having to get a feat does make the class more powerful. At the very least, it feels redundant considering this fighter already gets martial flexibility and fighter's cunning to easily pick up Combat Expertise and combat maneuver feats.

6) You don't have to specify everything. You just need to use language so people know what effects apply. There's no such mechanic called a "harmful effect" in the game. That's way too vague and could mean anything. Saying something akin to "a spell, spell-like, or supernatural ability with a non-instantaneous or non-permanent duration" would work. I would have thought an RPG Superstar competitor would understand this.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1) Str bonus on demand, COn bonus on demand, Will save bonus on demand, excellent skill list, d12, martial weapons and armor, fast movement, with a ONE LEVEL DIP.
Horrors! Nerf barbs!

FE bonus, two good saves, talk w animals, tracking, 6 skill list with incredible skill list, AND the ability to use any wand or scroll on the ranger list, including the wonderful CLW wand with a ONE LEVEL DIP.
Horrors! Nerf Rangers!

Smite once a day, the best two good saves, Detect Evil on demand!!!, Decent skill list, same armor/weapon profs as fighter, able to use wands and scrolls of all spells on the paladin list, including the wonderful CLW Wand with a ONE LEVEL DIP.
Horrors! Nerf Paladins!

Fighter - Get one combat feat he has to qualify for 3/day, auto-qualify for Expertise (But he still has to blow a feat on it), minor bonus to one skill IF he spends the skill points on it, same skill points as barb, about par for skill list, two good saves, AND a th/dmg bonus with one weapon group, for a ONE LEVEL DIP.
Horrors!@ Overpowered Fighter!

Pass me the clw wand, please.

2) Meh. Personal preference.

3) Whiiiich would be a great leadership buff, except leadership has built-in maximums on cohorts, and lots of followers is meh unless the DM wants you to have an army. Leadership itself is a 'DM limbo' feat.
Yes, the fighter can get a bigger army then a bard. Strange how that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Soldiers before fanboi's, I guess.
Charisma boosting one thing and Wisdom boosting another is the very definition of MAD. The fighter already has it with all physical stats. he doesn't need it for mental ones at all.

5)Not having to get a feat does indeed amount to more feats. it's also the equivalent of a scaling class ability, getting both broader and deeper. And the individual feats are classic examples of rapidly diminishing marginal returns...ineffective against many creatures, and rapidly more and more useless at higher levels.
So, basically it's an ability that's trying to remain at least marginally relevant at higher levels, instead of another useless thing the fighter can do. Kewl at low levels, nigh worthless at higher.
And like I said, burning 5 feats on Improved Combat maneuver stuff is insane.

6) Kindly note that you originally called for a LIST in your original post. I noted GUIDELINES would be nice, which it seems to me you are recommending now. A list is almost intrinsically unworkable.
=========================
What it comes down to is:
Does the fighter profit more dipping one level of the other classes...

Or do they profit more dipping one level of Fighter?

I'm inclined to the former for all three classes.

==Aelryinth


Cyrad wrote:

I like this much better than the version I initially saw. However, I do have the following criticisms and suggestions.

1) This fighter gets way too much at 1st level. The best armor and weapon proficiencies in the game, martial Flexibility, a bonus feat that bypasses prerequisites, and an unconditional +1/+1 bonus to your weapons of choice. And a nifty little skill bonus as the cherry on top. That's insanely good. With a two level dip, you get all of that plus an extra prereq-bypassing feat and armor training.

He gets the same number of abilities as the Brawler. Every other class has their buffs at 1st level. Paladins add Charisma to attacks and AC, slayers get +1/+1 with whatever weapon they want, and rangers get +2/+2 against something they are most likely going to be fighting.

Quote:
I suggest putting Combat School at 2nd level, the Weapon Training thing at 5th level, remove the bonus feat at 1st level, remove maneuver training, and put Armor Training at 3rd level.

To make the class demonstrably worse than all the other classes in the name of balance is not creating a balanced game. In its current form, my fighter is no stronger nor any better of a level dip that it was before. People dip fighter, it's just what they do.

Quote:
2) The +1/+1 from Combat School should be its own ability again. That ability is already a page long.

I can call it weapon training, but that's literally semantics.

Quote:
3) Personally, I'd change Militant Expertise so that your Leadership score equals your Wisdom modifier plus the number of ranks of Profession (soldier). This feels more in line with the feat's normal Charsima + level.

There's already a cap on what you can get out of Leadership, and forcing the fighter to invest in Wisdom to use his class ability makes the fighter weaker. The ability functions the way it does to alleviate that.

Quote:
4) It doesn't feel right that the fighter can get Signature Deed before the gunslinger. Or that they can get Grit feats so much more easily than the gunslinger.

Should I remove Firearm style then? It's only a one level difference.

Quote:
5) Seems weird that Maneuver Training is better than the brawler's and lets your combat maneuvers not provoke an attack of opportunity when the class already makes it easy to pick up feats to do that.

Lore Warden gets up to +8 on all his combat maneuvers for free by 15th level. Maneuver training was a weak ability to begin with.

Quote:
6) Defiance needs to list the conditions and effects specifically. "Harmful effects" is too vague and too much of a blanket statement. Same goes for Greater Recovery.

It works for heroic defiance and heroic recovery, from which the language was derived.

Quote:

7) Typo in Combat School: "When gaining bonus combat feats, he may select a feat available from his combat school without meet the feat’s prerequisites."

8) Minor grammar and writing style nitpick: size categories should be capitalized and "combat maneuver" should be lowercase. See Weapon Mastery.

Thanks, fixed.

Liberty's Edge

master_marshmallow wrote:
He gets the same number of abilities as the Brawler. Every other class has their buffs at 1st level. Paladins add Charisma to attacks and AC, slayers get +1/+1 with whatever weapon they want, and rangers get +2/+2 against something they are most likely going to be fighting.

The Brawler doesn't get +1 to hit and damage or a Feat of his choice, or a very good non-combat ability. The Paladin's bonus to hit is 1/day, the Slayer's requires a Move Action, and the Ranger's is extremely situational.

master_marshmallow wrote:
To make the class demonstrably worse than all the other classes in the name of balance is not creating a balanced game. In its current form, my fighter is no stronger nor any better of a level dip that it was before. People dip fighter, it's just what they do.

Yes it is. By +1 to hit and damage and a no-prerequisite Feat. And a highly useful non-combat ability that's probably better than Versatile Performance (more skills, plus Leadership, even if it doesn't apply vs. everyone).

master_marshmallow wrote:
I can call it weapon training, but that's literally semantics.

Semantics are potentially important.

master_marshmallow wrote:
There's already a cap on what you can get out of Leadership, and forcing the fighter to invest in Wisdom to use his class ability makes the fighter weaker. The ability functions the way it does to alleviate that.

Leadership isn't a Class Ability.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Lore Warden gets up to +8 on all his combat maneuvers for free by 15th level. Maneuver training was a weak ability to begin with.

Lore Warden is not well-balanced with other Classes and Archetypes, and probably not the best example.

Don't get me wrong, it's a really great archetype and I like it, but comparing it to every other thing that gives bonuses to Combat Maneuvers it's so much better as to make for bad comparisons.


Could you possibly increase the font size? I can just barely read it. I'm viewing this on an ipad and can't do so myself. For that matter, arranging it into two columns per page would help a bunch too.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Deadmanwalking wrote:

1) The Brawler gets other things. The paladin's ability also includes an AC bonus, and is usable when he wants it, with anything. The slayer's ability works anytime against anything using anything.

2) People dip barb for rage rounds and Ranger for an FE, too. Rage rounds are arguably more useful. And the non-combat ability is based around a skill few people want to take.

3) ---
4) And so the ability is a non-sequiter, because it's worthless unless Leadership is allowed.

5) Let me correct that for you. "Lore Warden is a start on the way to being balanced with other Core Martial Classes."
And poo-poohing it because it gives bonuses to Combat Manuvers is like poo-pooing the Paladin because it gives bonuses to Smiting Evil.

==Aelryinth


Comparatively speaking, the fighter dip is no more powerful than a swashbuckler dip. Fighter's can take a feat without meeting prereqs, and they no longer need INT 13 for feat prereqs, and they get +1/+1 on attacks with choice weapons.

Swashbucklers get super weapon finesse, which includes the ability to use CHA instead of INT for feat prereqs, doesn't need to meet prereqs, and expands the weapons usable by the feat. They also get 3 deeds and qualify for grit feats.

You will notice the latest version to include bigger text, reorganized in the order the abilities appear on the table, firearms removed, Endurance is now part of armor training, Disruptive and Spekkbreaker are coupled with Shatter Spell, and the starting age is changed to trained.

The document has also been renamed to better suit where this idea is coming from as far as game design goes.

Any chance I can get someone important to change the name of the thread to "Marshmallow's Unchained Fighter"?


What you're running into here M.M. is the bias many people in this game have against constant abilities. Its the exact same reason Full Casters are so overpowered, because much of this hobby wants 'limited use' stuff to be way better than simple always on stuff.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
What you're running into here M.M. is the bias many people in this game have against constant abilities. Its the exact same reason Full Casters are so overpowered, because much of this hobby wants 'limited use' stuff to be way better than simple always on stuff.

Most of the new abilities are limited use stuff.

Liberty's Edge

kyrt-ryder wrote:
What you're running into here M.M. is the bias many people in this game have against constant abilities. Its the exact same reason Full Casters are so overpowered, because much of this hobby wants 'limited use' stuff to be way better than simple always on stuff.

Not really. Most of my objections have little or nothing to do with this (indeed, the only one that has anything to do with it is Weapon Training from level 1), and I agree that 'unlimited use' is vastly overrated in many cases.

But 'always on' is notably better than 'as a move action'. An 'always on' is way better than 'once per day'. Now, it's only marginally better than 3 or 4 times a day...but once isn't enough to use it even every other fight. The game is predicated on 4 fights a day, once you can get through those, whether your effect is 'always on' doesn't matter, but it matters if you don't have enough uses to get through the day.

So...Barbarians get to Rage maybe 2 fights a day at 1st, and Paladins get to smite one foe. Slayers have to spend a Move Action to get their bonus (which hurts even low-level action economy), and Brawlers don't get a bonus to hit or damage at all. The Fighter version I was commenting on gets all their bonuses all the time from level 1.

Now, sure, by 7th level, all of these folks have all their bonuses close enough to all the time as makes no difference, but that's by seventh level and almost half way through most games. Powering up Fighters offense from levels 1-6 does not seem like something that's actually all that necessary, it's later stuff (plus defenses and mobility) that they need help with.

More detailed analysis later.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
What you're running into here M.M. is the bias many people in this game have against constant abilities. Its the exact same reason Full Casters are so overpowered, because much of this hobby wants 'limited use' stuff to be way better than simple always on stuff.

Not really. Most of my objections have little or nothing to do with this (indeed, the only one that has anything to do with it is Weapon Training from level 1), and I agree that 'unlimited use' is vastly overrated in many cases.

But 'always on' is notably better than 'as a move action'. An 'always on' is way better than 'once per day'. Now, it's only marginally better than 3 or 4 times a day...but once isn't enough to use it even every other fight. The game is predicated on 4 fights a day, once you can get through those, whether your effect is 'always on' doesn't matter, but it matters if you don't have enough uses to get through the day.

So...Barbarians get to Rage maybe 2 fights a day at 1st, and Paladins get to smite one foe. Slayers have to spend a Move Action to get their bonus (which hurts even low-level action economy), and Brawlers don't get a bonus to hit or damage at all. The Fighter version I was commenting on gets all their bonuses all the time from level 1.

Now, sure, by 7th level, all of these folks have all their bonuses close enough to all the time as makes no difference, but that's by seventh level and almost half way through most games. Powering up Fighters offense from levels 1-6 does not seem like something that's actually all that necessary, it's later stuff (plus defenses and mobility) that they need help with.

More detailed analysis later.

To be fair, always on abilities typically take a few levels to come on and become useful.

Detect evil, favored enemy, and the like are such issues.
Divine Grace however is much better than armor training.
Favored terrain is much better than militant expertise.
Uncanny dodge is better in some regards to fortification.
Lots of classes have always on abilities. The fighter just happens to have some that boost DPR and that scares people.
As far as combat goes, the fighter has versatility of builds, but his actual damage stays mediocre where the other guys nova.
He's fairly comparable to the barbarian now, which was my goal post.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
The game is predicated on 4 fights a day...

Just curious. According to who?


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
The game is predicated on 4 fights a day...
Just curious. According to who?

Is the new formatting better?

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