Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Hi everybody,
I recently GMed at a convention for new players, most of them had no experience with the Pathfinder RPG, but the pregens my fellow GMs and I brought to the event were well received ( having the right prepainted miniatures/pawns to represent the inconics was a huge visual aid, especially for the younger players).
However, after the first slot (of 3) a couple of players approached me wanting to create their first characters (my slot had finished a little early due to me making a mistake), since time at an event is quite limited modifiying/coping of an existing iconic seemed to be the quickest choice, but unfortunately they had picked some of the ACG pregens.
To make a long story shorter they ended up creating a their own Core Rulebook characters, but we didn't finish until the convention was over, so played pregens the whole time anyway.
A lot of those players have already expressed interest in more PFS in that particular city, so the event was definitely a success, but the whole situation made me think.
What would be the arguments for and against changing the rule regarding additional resources to allow players to use an additional resource they do not own (or have brought with them) when the resource is at the table.
Obviously I think that there is some merit to the idea (I don't mind suggesting the ACG or other products to new players) and it would allow new players to try PFS without a rather large investment, especially when we can't guarantee the next PFS event.
Venture-Agent, Texas—Houston
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If the GM does not have the resource on them, and the player cannot provide it, how is anyone to know what an ability does at 1st level?
Sometimes you do not have an internet connection to access the PRD. Sometimes someone wants to use a resource that is not on the PRD. This would only shift responsibility onto GMs to have all resources their players want to use.
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The DM having the book on them technically does not meet the additional resources requirements for the player. Unless they want to slide the DM a penny and have the DM slide the book over for the duration of the scenario...
And sometimes I know something as "that feat that does something..." "or that trait every monk takes..." rather than by name.
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What you've proposed is the perfect case for having the iconics available for play. It allows players, especially entry-level players, to try things without making the purchase. I don't think it's wise, however, to allow players to build characters with resources they don't own for the simple fact that it increases the margin for error significantly, which leads to the bad kind of table variance, more audits, and potentially hurt feelings.
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You kind of asked two questions, so you may have to answers:
Allowing people to use sources that they don't own is disrespectful to players who have bought those sources. If you spent $40 on the ACG to play a Swashbuckler and I didn't but played one anyway, how would you feel about that? It's an integrity issue.
On the other hand, at a local store I had a player looking through one of my books and wanted to use something out of it. I reminded him that he needed to have a legal copy. He said he couldn't afford it that day, but would get it on his next payday. So no big deal there, as I remembered to check on it the next time he played.
The second part of your question gets a different answer. It depends. If you know the players at the table and you know that they do own the source but just didn't bring it, then sure, let it slide. It's a case-by-case basis.
We should be hesitant before asking for a change to the official rules. PFS is a community, and common sense should be allowed to have a say. This thread is why there are VC's, VL's, and event organizers, to make the small day-to-day decisions that keep this community growing.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I was mostly thinking about corner case where a player wants to continue playing a pregen until level 2, as far as I know you can just change the name of a pregen and continue to play it, but I don't think that does work with classes that are not in the CRB.
The same is true, when I create a new character with a player - I usually ask for a concept and try to help the player to find the right combination of stats. If the perfect mechanical representation of the concept (IMO) is outside the CRB, currently I am forced to say pretty much this:
"Sorry, class X from the ACP perfectly encapsulates your concept, but since you don't have the source (unsurprising since you just played your first PFS scenario) you can't play that. Just pick class X from the CRB for now, and you can retrain later".
I might take this issue way to seriously.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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It guarantees more tables that won't be recorded properly because of unregistered characters.
Am I missing something here? Thus far I assumed, that I can just give a new player a PFS number and report the event (I know that some of the players from my home group have not registered their characters).
Enforcing the rule as it is, puts the pain over quickly and encourages getting things done. If a player wants to use a resource he should either buy it, or make a different choice.
What happens in a situation where a player is willing to buy the material, but can't do so right now because a book is not available in his country? For example it can take quite a number of weeks between the addition of a book to the additional resources and it being available in Germany.
I have considered buying some 10 $ gift paizo.com gift cards, to sell to players, but is seemed a little bit shady.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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You kind of asked two questions, so you may have to answers:
Allowing people to use sources that they don't own is disrespectful to players who have bought those sources. If you spent $40 on the ACG to play a Swashbuckler and I didn't but played one anyway, how would you feel about that? It's an integrity issue.
On the other hand, at a local store I had a player looking through one of my books and wanted to use something out of it. I reminded him that he needed to have a legal copy. He said he couldn't afford it that day, but would get it on his next payday. So no big deal there, as I remembered to check on it the next time he played.
I can agree that it can be seen as disrespectful, when one player carries severely pounds of books to our gaming events, and someone else doesn't have to, but that really only starts with regular players.
When in a situation like yours, or mine, someone is accepting the need to bring the additional resource at a future event, I would like to be able to show some leniency.
The second part of your question gets a different answer. It depends. If you know the players at the table and you know that they do own the source but just didn't bring it, then sure, let it slide. It's a case-by-case basis.We should be hesitant before asking for a change to the official rules. PFS is a community, and common sense should be allowed to have a say. This thread is why there are VC's, VL's, and event organizers, to make the small day-to-day decisions that keep this community growing.
I have yet to check additional resources, and in the case of those players who have their hardcover books at home, well I see no reason to punish them.
And I am not actually asking for a change, I just wanted to discuss a potential change, and how it could help to find new players, or harm when it comes to regular players getting sloppy, regarding their additional resources.
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The requirements are there for several reasons. I hardly think we'll lose a player if the rules are explained to them.
Regardless, for new players, I would never suggest non-Core classes, or even advanced Core classes until they've grasped the basics of the game. Like any other game, you don't jump to the advanced rules until you know the basics of play.
If the material takes time to get to them, they've already made the investment and are more than likely willing to wait., especially if you've explained the rules to them beforehand.
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What happens in a situation where a player is willing to buy the material, but can't do so right now because a book is not available in his country? For example it can take quite a number of weeks between the addition of a book to the additional resources and it being available in Germany.I have considered buying some 10 $ gift paizo.com gift cards, to sell to players, but is seemed a little bit shady.
I think this is a legitimate issue to discuss in regards to your original post. Is there difficulty with currency conversion when purchasing from paizo.com? As I'm in the US, I don't have any experience interacting with other currencies.
I could see a case being made for what you're asking if the ability to purchase the additional resource is restricted by the actual availability of the resource.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The requirements are there for several reasons. I hardly think we'll lose a player if the rules are explained to them.
Regardless, for new players, I would never suggest non-Core classes, or even advanced Core classes until they've grasped the basics of the game. Like any other game, you don't jump to the advanced rules until you know the basics of play.
If the material takes time to get to them, they've already made the investment and are more than likely willing to wait., especially if you've explained the rules to them beforehand.
I have trouble accepting it as fact, that the newer classes are significantly more complicated than the CRB classes (however the GMs might have a better grip on them), a Slayer isn't really more complicated than a Rogue, and when a player comes to me wanting to make a character reminiscent of all those old Bud Spencer and Terence Hill movies, I would rather recommend the Brawler, instead of the Monk (which carries quite a bit of baggage, least of all the alignment).
EDIT: I just want players to have the best first few scenarios possible.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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What happens in a situation where a player is willing to buy the material, but can't do so right now because a book is not available in his country? For example it can take quite a number of weeks between the addition of a book to the additional resources and it being available in Germany.I have considered buying some 10 $ gift paizo.com gift cards, to sell to players, but is seemed a little bit shady.
I think this is a legitimate issue to discuss in regards to your original post. Is there difficulty with currency conversion when purchasing from paizo.com? As I'm in the US, I don't have any experience interacting with other currencies.
I could see a case being made for what you're asking if the ability to purchase the additional resource is restricted by the actual availability of the resource.
The conversion rate is changing, and in some cases credit card charges are a factor, this is mostly an issue since credit cards are much rarer in europe than in the US.
For example the exchange rate € to $ has risen from about 0,86 € cent per 1 $ to 0,95 € cent per 1 $ a couple of weeks ago ( and I remember a time where it was about 80 cent per dollar), seems like the american economy is recovering nicely. ^^
I think local availability can be a problem when a book is sold out, and paizo doesn't think it is financially viable to make a reprint, some of the old APs have that problem. And of course this can be a problem for players who can't switch to pdfs.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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What happens in a situation where a player is willing to buy the material, but can't do so right now because a book is not available in his country? For example it can take quite a number of weeks between the addition of a book to the additional resources and it being available in Germany.Then quite frankly he should be doing what all the other German players have been patiently doing. Play something else until the material becomes available. Presumably Germans play everything else on the same delayed schedule so it should work.
That however is an extreme case, and quite frankly the campaign should not be basing it's rules on extreme cases.
Well I am a subscriber, or buy the pdf, so I usually have a legal source weeks before the hardcovers arrive in Germany.
But I agree, that it is a corner case.
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What happens in a situation where a player is willing to buy the material, but can't do so right now because a book is not available in his country? For example it can take quite a number of weeks between the addition of a book to the additional resources and it being available in Germany.I have considered buying some 10 $ gift paizo.com gift cards, to sell to players, but is seemed a little bit shady.
I think this is a legitimate issue to discuss in regards to your original post. Is there difficulty with currency conversion when purchasing from paizo.com? As I'm in the US, I don't have any experience interacting with other currencies.
I could see a case being made for what you're asking if the ability to purchase the additional resource is restricted by the actual availability of the resource.
The conversion rate is changing, and in some cases credit card charges are a factor, this is mostly an issue since credit cards are much rarer in europe than in the US.
For example the exchange rate € to $ has risen from about 0,86 € cent per 1 $ to 0,95 € cent per 1 $ a couple of weeks ago ( and I remember a time where it was about 80 cent per dollar), seems like the american economy is recovering nicely. ^^
I think local availability can be a problem when a book is sold out, and paizo doesn't think it is financially viable to make a reprint, some of the old APs have that problem. And of course this can be a problem for players who can't switch to pdfs.
I suppose what I meant here is summed up like this: "Is it possible to purchase a PDF from Paizo using non-US Dollar currency?"
So, without going to a moneychanger of some sort, could you make a purchase of a PDF with Euros? My guess would be no given that Paizo likely is not large enough to absorb the cost of converting the cash into USD or to retain holdings in foreign currency.
If a player needs to go through the intermediary step of obtaining USD to purchase the pdfs, then it's reasonable to say that there should at least be a discussion of the policy. Until then, I really like your idea of having the Paizo gift cards available for players, honestly.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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What happens in a situation where a player is willing to buy the material, but can't do so right now because a book is not available in his country? For example it can take quite a number of weeks between the addition of a book to the additional resources and it being available in Germany.I have considered buying some 10 $ gift paizo.com gift cards, to sell to players, but is seemed a little bit shady.
I think this is a legitimate issue to discuss in regards to your original post. Is there difficulty with currency conversion when purchasing from paizo.com? As I'm in the US, I don't have any experience interacting with other currencies.
I could see a case being made for what you're asking if the ability to purchase the additional resource is restricted by the actual availability of the resource.
The conversion rate is changing, and in some cases credit card charges are a factor, this is mostly an issue since credit cards are much rarer in europe than in the US.
For example the exchange rate € to $ has risen from about 0,86 € cent per 1 $ to 0,95 € cent per 1 $ a couple of weeks ago ( and I remember a time where it was about 80 cent per dollar), seems like the american economy is recovering nicely. ^^
I think local availability can be a problem when a book is sold out, and paizo doesn't think it is financially viable to make a reprint, some of the old APs have that problem. And of course this can be a problem for players who can't switch to pdfs.
I suppose what I meant here is summed up like this: "Is it possible to purchase a PDF from Paizo using non-US Dollar currency?"
So, without going to a moneychanger of some sort, could you make a purchase of a PDF with Euros? My guess would be no given that Paizo likely is not large enough to absorb the cost of converting the cash into USD or to retain holdings in foreign currency.
If a player needs to go through the intermediary...
No, it is not quite that hard, while Paizo only accepts/receives dollars, your credit card company/bank will just convert the purchase into dollars, according to the current exchange rate (maybe with a certain surcharge - mine charges 0,25 € extra for something like this).
So long as you have an accepted credit card (these days you can even get visa debit cards at some gas stations, you just give the cashier a certain amount of money and get the charged card) shopping at paizo offers no barrier.|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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If the GM does not have the resource on them, and the player cannot provide it, how is anyone to know what an ability does at 1st level?
Sometimes you do not have an internet connection to access the PRD. Sometimes someone wants to use a resource that is not on the PRD. This would only shift responsibility onto GMs to have all resources their players want to use.
Increasing the burden on the GMs really isn't my aim, but when I already have all the pregens with me (which is always the case when I GM unless I know, that I don't need them) allowing a new play to adopt it as his character should pose no additional burden on the GM.
Or at least that was my initial intent - I might just have to carry a couple of gift cards with me.
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You're talking about brand new players right?
If the resource is at the table and the players have the intention of buying the book when they can - then it shouldn't be a huge issue. They just need a way of being able to look up the rules if a dispute comes up.
Having said that, some GMs are just going to decline because of the rule, and they're in their rights to do so. Those players without the book are asking for an exception which they may or may not get depending on the GM and the circumstances.
If they've played 3 sessions and still don't have the books, they'll want to have a great reason as to why the GM should give them more time to get the books and play anyway. Telling the GM "you have the books, isn't that enough" isn't really good enough.
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As a player, I like this suggestion. This would give a player a chance to try different mechanics out to even see if they like their build before having to invest in a the books.
As a GM, I find this to be a problem. It has already been stated, it is not the GMs job to provide resources for players. Feats and traits are one thing. Those typically play a small role in how a build functions, but take a different class for instance. Time and time again, I have seen it that the player doesn't understand a class they are playing and I as a GM have to explain exactly how things function. This could drag a game to a halt if the GM and player are unfamiliar with a class and they player is just trying it out to even see if they are interested in playing it. This is even more drastic for a new GM.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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You're talking about brand new players right?
If the resource is at the table and the players have the intention of buying the book when they can - then it shouldn't be a huge issue. They just need a way of being able to look up the rules if a dispute comes up.
Having said that, some GMs are just going to decline because of the rule, and they're in their rights to do so. Those players without the book are asking for an exception which they may or may not get depending on the GM and the circumstances.
If they've played 3 sessions and still don't have the books, they'll want to have a great reason as to why the GM should give them more time to get the books and play anyway. Telling the GM "you have the books, isn't that enough" isn't really good enough.
Yes, my intention is for something like this, to mainly support new players and give them a little bit of an easier entry into PFS.
Of course there is a limit to "new player" but as the core campaign has shown, you could potentially play PFS for years, without every buying a CRB (I highly doubt, that the number of players who do this is significant, compared to the number of players who buy literally almost anything).
Everyone plays by the same rules.
Debatable, as we often hear, some players have distinct advantages over others, either because they have been playing for quite some time (aasimar & mythic theurge grandfathering) or play in an area with plenty of events where they can earn boons.
It doesn't actually really matter, since any change intended to support new players in this endeavor would benefit all players (and frankly considering my suggestion of limiting it up to level 2, it wouldn't affect that many established players).
If you cant afford a bunch of books-pdfs then play core campaign. Or keep your pc down to just a couple books.
You might be surprised to learn, that I actively suggest the competitively priced (English) pdfs to new players (I can't bring myself to suggest the translated versions, since telling me the translated name of a class or spell usually doesn't help). Pretty much everyone with a smartphone can satisfy the requirements this way, but it is a bit difficult to do right at an even (one of the reasons I give out printed pfs numbers, registering with you phone is a bit time consuming).
Oh and "just play Core campaign" is limited by the availability of CORE games in your area, and I don't see myself offering core campaign scenarios for new players.
We offered First Steps, The Confirmation and Wounded Wisp, offering a CORE table in each slot would require us to explain CORE to new players, before we have even started to explain PFS... and it would pretty much lock in that player to only play on CORE tables at that event, or lose their CORE status... which can be troublesome.
Again, I can understand this point of view for established players, but I would prefer to be able to share my own materials with the players for their first couple of scenarios.
As a player, I like this suggestion. This would give a player a chance to try different mechanics out to even see if they like their build before having to invest in a the books.
As a GM, I find this to be a problem. It has already been stated, it is not the GMs job to provide resources for players. Feats and traits are one thing. Those typically play a small role in how a build functions, but take a different class for instance. Time and time again, I have seen it that the player doesn't understand a class they are playing and I as a GM have to explain exactly how things function. This could drag a game to a halt if the GM and player are unfamiliar with a class and they player is just trying it out to even see if they are interested in playing it. This is even more drastic for a new GM.
Oh I am completely fine with the idea of not enabling a character that needs 27 sourcebooks to work, but I think that is usually not the case for low level characters, and even then resource has to be on the table , and GMs and fellow players should have the right to deny access to their fellow players.
I think I should have phrased my idea differently: Can GMs voluntarily share their additional resources with new players under a certain level (subject to GM discretion)?
And regarding players not understanding their class, I have had this discussion with other GMs and players conveniently forgetting drawbacks of their class isn't all that rare, and book ownership doesn't really seem to matter at all.
I really doubt, that a new player will try to replicate the infamous "songbird of doom" build, in my experience, new players are much more likely to accept whatever the GM tells them as fact. And low level characters usually are far less complex than some multiclass abominations.
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Where is the limit on the amount of resources that are "allowed"? What if the person who was supposed to bring the resource forgot and the player doesn't have another character with them?
Also, some things bring entirely more complex aspects to the game. Someone decided they are want to try a summoner because they have heard how powerful they can become should be treated differently then someone who took a trait to get a class skill.
If the the "no resource rule" is shown some flexibility here, players will expect and complain that it is shown in other areas. (Example: it should be the GMs responsibility to provide beastiary for a character that summons.)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Where is the limit on the amount of resources that are "allowed"? What if the person who was supposed to bring the resource forgot and the player doesn't have another character with them?
Can't this already happen? When a group of people plan to attend a PFS event, and the fall under one of the existing exemptions that allows them to share their resources (i.e. regular gaming group), and one player forgets that resource... isn't that exactly the same situation (and totally legal under the current rules, as long as they all sit at the same table)?
Also, some things bring entirely more complex aspects to the game. Someone decided they are want to try a summoner because they have heard how powerful they can become should be treated differently then someone who took a trait to get a class skill.If the the "no resource rule" is shown some flexibility here, players will expect and complain that it is shown in other areas. (Example: it should be the GMs responsibility to provide beastiary for a character that summons.)
Well, we already let people try those classes, they just have to own the books, not unlike parenthood, you don't really have to pass a test before you are allowed at the table (and if a player doesn't have a playable character, either due to lack of sources or other reasons, she gets to play a pregen).
The bestiary example is a actually quite curious, I am actually not sure if the bestiary is part of the core assumption. Considering, that at least 2 pregens can already cast Summon natures ally, and plenty of players will not own a bestiary.
Actually I am not entirely sure, what GMs are supposed to bring to the table, I usually bring all the pregens, but chances are pretty good, that I won't even offer some of them to players unless they ask for them (Gunslinger... and Harsk).
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I think I should have phrased my idea differently: Can GMs voluntarily share their additional resources with new players under a certain level (subject to GM discretion)?
Often times I have no idea what levels or builds that parties are going to have at the tables I run (i.e. Gencon), so how would I know what resources to bring to accommodate the players that do not have the resources?
I specifically print only the exact pages I need for my character from the PDFs and carry them with my character sheets. I have absolutely no intention on bringing 10ish hardback books and 50+ splat books to a convention to accommodate low level players who choose to play a character that don't have the resources for. I don't ever bring those for myself, why would I want to bring them for my players.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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i say no..
no resource then its not allowed... no reason to encourage cheating.
you can hold a non pfs event for them to try these non legal builds though...
I know that like the idiot I am, I only mentioned the level cutoff point in the title, but even if you allow something like this until character level 3.. what kind of build to you expect? It seems to be "common knowledge that everybody knows" that Barbarians (with plenty of scars) dominate those levels.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I think I should have phrased my idea differently: Can GMs voluntarily share their additional resources with new players under a certain level (subject to GM discretion)?Often times I have no idea what levels or builds that parties are going to have at the tables I run (i.e. Gencon), so how would I know what resources to bring to accommodate the players that do not have the resources?
I specifically print only the exact pages I need for my character from the PDFs and carry them with my character sheets. I have absolutely no intention on bringing 10ish hardback books and 50+ splat books to a convention to accommodate low level players who choose to play a character that don't have the resources for. I don't ever bring those for myself, why would I want to bring them for my players.
I have pretty much everything on my tablet/laptop so I don't have that particular problem (when I started PFS I invested a bit on those pdfs of hardcovers I got outside of my subscription), but I see your point.
However I would I think you have it slightly backwards, it is not the players that should come to you, and ask you for resources, rather it would be the GM that can offer those resources to his/her players.
Since I suggest this mainly as an option for newer players (the established players already now that they will have to get the resources anyway) the following option would have little to no impact/burden on the GM:
Allow new players to continue playing their existing pregen until the point where they reach level 2 (maybe let them change race/physical description/name/gender to a CRB option). Since all the relevant rules will already be on the pregen, they won't have to look up anything else.
Copy a pregen to an existing character sheet, change the name and that players is still essentially playing the same character, with no added complexity. It works for the pregens from the CRB, now the question is just, do we want it to work for the later pregens?