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Am I missing something with the Skald?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


Inspire Courage seems to outclass Inspired Rage in every way (adds to finesse damage, more accuracy, Inspired Rage's damage only seems to match with a two weapon fighting, AC penalty) with only save bonus being the upside. The standard Bard's performance has a bunch of additional uses compared to the...5 songs the Skald gets. It's minor but the Bard gets two more skill points compared to the armor and weapons the Skald gets, and I've seen a bard dip fighter and handle the frontlines astonishingly well.

So am I missing a secret technique/archetype that gives it something to make it a true force? I've never seen rage powers in action so I don't know the significance of giving them to other party members, is that a huge deal? What about Spell Keening?


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Be a half orc, dip 1 level of bloodrager, trade your 1st level bloodline ability out with a bloodline familiar with the valet archetype, and get the Amplified Rage teamwork feat. Your valet familiar will share your teamwork feats and ignore prerequisites. You will have +8 str/con whenever you use raging song, and your familiar will have +6 str/con. Also, it's a morale bonus so it increases if you have a Courageous weapon.

You are now a heavy metal rockstar who smashes face alongside your band's goat mascot.

Sharing rage powers with your team is pretty awesome and not something a bard can do. Lesser Spirit Totem lets you grant an extra attack to all of your allies which scales off your charisma. Linnorm Death Curses, especially Tor, combo well with expendible summoned monsters, because they apply permanent curses to enemies whenever an ally with the rage power dies.

Spell kenning gives you access to several huge and useful spell lists on the fly, which is always amazing.

Greater Skald's Vigor grants your team fast healing. If you have a way to share teamwork feats (and thus Amplified Rage) with your allies, like through Cavalier 1 or Holy Tactician Paladin 3, the healing is massive.

Finally, the Fated Champion archetype is amazing. You get a huge boost to initiative for almost no cost, and the change to spell kenning doesn't hurt.


Skalds give out STR, CON, AC, Fast healing, pounce and Saving throw boosts if you wanted it to. The skald is less good for everyone, but really good for people trying to hit things hard. and super good with summons too. Or you can trade out some rage powers for totem skald and give out more stats or other tricks too.


The right rage powers are pretty powerful. Everyone having pounce is huge if the party is melee heavy and doesn't otherwise get it. Giving everyone scents and using pheremone arrows is nice, though there aren't really rage powers that support archery skald beyond that.


There is also the fact that you can troll ally and enemy casters alike, just declare them allies and rage song, oops, now they cannot cast spells, sorry wizard friend.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, if your group is using the revised rage powers from Unchained, those really help out the skald, practically more than the barbarian. Accurate Stance replicates and improves on the most important part of inspire courage(if your party is melee), granting a +1 +l per 4 level competence bonus to melee attacks. (And can take additional power to double the bonus for crit confirmations and to increase melee crit mods by 1). Basically, if your martials are melee, skalds tend to be better, if your martials are ranged, bards tend to be better.


Avadriel wrote:
There is also the fact that you can troll ally and enemy casters alike, just declare them allies and rage song, oops, now they cannot cast spells, sorry wizard friend.

Each of the allies choose each round to accept the song or not, and there's no fatigue afterwards so it actually doesn't stop spells.

Dark Archive

It's pretty much straight better for Str-focused characters, and the fact that its Inspire Rage is slightly less good for everybody else is pretty much negated by the fact that Spell Kenning is the best thing since sliced bread.

Liberty's Edge

1) You share rage powers. Lots of potential here (e.g. nat armor, pounce, superstition).
2) You share your DR. Not much, but most melee don't get DR, so it helps.
3) You can spend 2 feats to grant fast healing to your allies (the first grants it to yourself).
4) MUCH better will bonus after a short while. Eventually a +6 to *all* will saves.

Also a big note: Since there's no fatigue cost, a Skald can rage-cycle earlier than a real barbarian, doing so at the cost of their swift action by 13th level.

So it starts looking like a poor Inspire Courage, but it eventually can end up as +6 AC, pounce, +6 str/con, +6 will saves, extra +7 versus spells, spell-likes, and SU, fast healing 6, DR 3/-, and +6 damage against nearly everything (anything with spells or spell-likes). Even a swashbuckler or an archer would have a hard time saying no to all that.

TL;DR - Starts slow, ends strong.

Shadow Lodge

Castilonium wrote:

Be a half orc, dip 1 level of bloodrager, trade your 1st level bloodline ability out with a bloodline familiar with the valet archetype, and get the Amplified Rage teamwork feat. Your valet familiar will share your teamwork feats and ignore prerequisites. You will have +8 str/con whenever you use raging song, and your familiar will have +6 str/con. Also, it's a morale bonus so it increases if you have a Courageous weapon.

You are now a heavy metal rockstar who smashes face alongside your band's goat mascot.

Sharing rage powers with your team is pretty awesome and not something a bard can do. Lesser Spirit Totem lets you grant an extra attack to all of your allies which scales off your charisma. Linnorm Death Curses, especially Tor, combo well with expendible summoned monsters, because they apply permanent curses to enemies whenever an ally with the rage power dies.

Spell kenning gives you access to several huge and useful spell lists on the fly, which is always amazing.

Greater Skald's Vigor grants your team fast healing. If you have a way to share teamwork feats (and thus Amplified Rage) with your allies, like through Cavalier 1 or Holy Tactician Paladin 3, the healing is massive.

Finally, the Fated Champion archetype is amazing. You get a huge boost to initiative for almost no cost, and the change to spell kenning doesn't hurt.

Ummm... NOTHING says the Valet familiar IGNORES PREREQUISITES for the teamwork feats... it still MUST meet the prerequisites (i.e. Be a half-orc for amplified rage)


Share rage powers, lets everyone spell sunder


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Inspired Rage benefits from being a bonus to Strength rather than directly to attack, so it can stack advantageously with other buffs, since a lot of buffs boost attack more directly. Buffing Strength also means that it gives two-handed weapons an extra point of damage, since they use 1.5 x Strength to damage. And as others have mentioned, sharing rage powers can mean you're an incredible force multiplier, especially if your group runs Strength-martial-heavy. (And depending on your group composition, you don't even have to choose - Inspired Rage and Inspire Courage stack! The skald in my group took a bard cohort, and it can truly be a thing to behold.)


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Shea Hoarfoot wrote:
Castilonium wrote:
Be a half orc, dip 1 level of bloodrager, trade your 1st level bloodline ability out with a bloodline familiar with the valet archetype, and get the Amplified Rage teamwork feat. Your valet familiar ...

Ummm... NOTHING says the Valet familiar IGNORES PREREQUISITES for the teamwork feats... it still MUST meet the prerequisites (i.e. Be a half-orc for amplified rage)

I've never seen this come up before, so I checked out the valet familiar, and by my reading I think it would work,kinda.

Teammate says "A valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats its master has."

I can see two readings here. One is that it works as Castilonium says. The other way I read it is that it is considered to have the team work feats, but doesn't actually get them, so the master's teamwork feats are functional when the familiar is nearby, but the the familiar doesn't get the benefits.

And of course your interpretation, so 3 ways. Has there been any dev input on the valet familiar?


Rennaivx wrote:
Inspired Rage benefits from being a bonus to Strength rather than directly to attack, so it can stack advantageously with other buffs, since a lot of buffs boost attack more directly. Buffing Strength also means that it gives two-handed weapons an extra point of damage, since they use 1.5 x Strength to damage. And as others have mentioned, sharing rage powers can mean you're an incredible force multiplier, especially if your group runs Strength-martial-heavy. (And depending on your group composition, you don't even have to choose - Inspired Rage and Inspire Courage stack! The skald in my group took a bard cohort, and it can truly be a thing to behold.)

Not only that, but the Inspired Rage bonuses are Morale Bonuses, whereas common buff or Polymorph spells and magic items give you an Enhancement Bonus or a Size Bonus, respectively, so it stacks with these as well.


@HyperMissingno:

You´re missing Rage Powers. Good stuff to share, from Superstitious to Witch Killer to Spell Sunder.


be careful when spreading superstitious as it will cause your allies to need to save vs your own spells


Lady-J wrote:
be careful when spreading superstitious as it will cause your allies to need to save vs your own spells

Not to mention that desperately needed healing spell to bring them back up as they will automatically accept the rage when they drop.


Sah wrote:
Shea Hoarfoot wrote:
Castilonium wrote:
Be a half orc, dip 1 level of bloodrager, trade your 1st level bloodline ability out with a bloodline familiar with the valet archetype, and get the Amplified Rage teamwork feat. Your valet familiar ...

Ummm... NOTHING says the Valet familiar IGNORES PREREQUISITES for the teamwork feats... it still MUST meet the prerequisites (i.e. Be a half-orc for amplified rage)

I've never seen this come up before, so I checked out the valet familiar, and by my reading I think it would work,kinda.

Teammate says "A valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats its master has."

I can see two readings here. One is that it works as Castilonium says. The other way I read it is that it is considered to have the team work feats, but doesn't actually get them, so the master's teamwork feats are functional when the familiar is nearby, but the the familiar doesn't get the benefits.

And of course your interpretation, so 3 ways. Has there been any dev input on the valet familiar?

A simpler answer is in the Core Rulebook itself.

Core Rulebook, Feats wrote:

Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

The valet familiar's Teammate ability gives it all the teamwork feats its master has, but when it currently lacks the prerequisite for a feat, it cannot use that feat.


The OP thinks inspire courage beats out extra fort will and hp? On a two handed build skald wins every time.

Dark Archive

I played a skald for a few levels in PFS. The only people that accepted the raging song were animal companions.
Most groups I played with had dex based martials, archers, and semi-casters or full casters.
In these groups, bard is vastly superior.
Especially in an environment like PFS where you don't keep the same group most of the time.

In a home game where you have the same party and the party with USE inspired rage, it can be a rip-roaring good time.


Teammate (Ex) wrote:
"A valet is considered to have all the teamwork feats its master has."

Is not the same as

Someone wrote:
"A valet has all the teamwork feats its master has."

The Valet doesn't actually possess teamwork feats it just is considered to have them much like the inquisitors solo tactics ability.

Solo tactics wrote:
the inquisitor’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats.

compare to the hunter's ability

Hunter Tactics (Ex) wrote:
the hunter automatically grants her teamwork feats to her animal companion.

It doesn't need to meet the prerequisites as it does not actually possess the feat it's just considered to have it. Which in conjunction with raging song would fulfill the requirements for the feat to activate


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Yes, I'd say the valet can't use the feats, but can count as an ally who has the feat for the purposes of you using the feat.


It's worth noting that while the inspire courage of two bards don't stack, inspire courage and raging song go together quite nicely.


Keep Calm and Carrion wrote:
It's worth noting that while the inspire courage of two bards don't stack, inspire courage and raging song go together quite nicely.

they should really make an archetype that would allow bard stuff to stack at least to some degree like why shouldn't a 100 bard symphony give massive buffs to the rich guy paying them to follow him around


Counterpoint to Inspiration allows a liiiiitle inspire courage stacking, but it's probably best that five fifth-level bards don't wade into combats with +10 to hit and damage each.


Archivist and Magician both have stuff that stack with normal bard and each other.

Sovereign Court

I think I have about 75% acceptance recently on my Skald. Granted, I am the urban Skald archetype so I am giving out +2 Dex (or strength if it's all bruisers) with no penalty to AC. Still in the 1-5 tier so even barbarians tend to still accept to save rounds or if they want the Dex. Also totemic (tiger) so I'll be handing out more Dex soon as an enhancement bonus. And eventually also Outflank from Red tongue archetype.

I considered fitting in Mad Magic as the rogue talent/combat trick, but I would need to share the perfect clarity rage power, because it doesn't ignore prereqs, and I was going for guarded life.

Now that I think about it, EVERYONE should accept when I first start inspired rage, because I have community minded so even if they decide to not continue at the start of their next turn they will keep the Dex bonus for 2 rounds. Even with a normal Skald the str/con/will save will stay but the ac penalty will drop off.

Dark Archive

I'm playing the Court Poet archetype skald, which raises Int and Cha instead. Our party has a lot of Int and Cha based casters, so its been great and different.


Skalds are more durable than bards. They get fast progression on fortitude saves instead of reflex saves. Most reflex saves simply reduce the amount of damage you take, where fortitude saves often keep you alive and functioning. Rage song also improves your CON giving you an even better fortitude save. They also get medium armor and martial weapons so they will have better AC and do more damage. A Skald using a greatsword and power attack is going to do a lot more damage than a bard with a rapier and weapon finesse.

The Skald is focused less on buffing others and more on himself. In a large group the bard is probably better because he is more of a force multiplier, but in a smaller group the skald does well because he can carry more of the load himself. Spell Kenning is very good for this because in a small group you may not have access to certain spells. Being able to cast spells from 3 different spell lists means you can often fill in for other casters. No cleric in the group and you can cast restoration to remove the negative levels.


Avadriel wrote:
There is also the fact that you can troll ally and enemy casters alike, just declare them allies and rage song, oops, now they cannot cast spells, sorry wizard friend.
Rage Song wrote:
the skald’s allies must decide whether to accept or refuse its effects.


Quote:
when the skald begins a raging song and at the start of each ally’s turn in which they can hear the raging song, the skald’s allies must decide whether to accept or refuse its effects.

This is very important because it tells you that you can easily step in and out of benefitting from a raging song. This has 2 fairly important effects. First, when the skald starts the song, almost everyone should accept it. It's a free bonus to a few rolls and you aren't likely to cast spells before it becomes your turn anyway. Second, it means that someone like a combat cleric is free to not use it one round to cast a buff spell, but then free to take it the next round for a full attack, and then not take it again the next round to cast a heal spell. I would say, only the full arcane casters are expected to cast a spell every round, and even then only past the early levels.

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