There is a rage power to begin raging before Initiative/surprise rounds....
Also I don't get the people who think Unchained was supposed to buff Barbarians. Previously it was a$$ backwards rulings and weird oddball cases that made them the best martial. Now they actually seem to fit into the game more.
theres also the cord of stubborn resolve (iirc). great way to rage free if you're ambushed.
So I know there is a little blurb on the side that makes it pretty clear what rage powers the unchained Barbarian has access to.
What I am wondering is if there is any indication on what rage powers Core Barbarians and Skald's have access to.
Does it really come out and say that some of these rage powers are outright replacements for old rage powers for the other classes.
For instance, right now it doesn't seem like there is anything preventing a core barbarian or skald from taking say.. Come and Get me and the Stance rage power equivalent?
I'm curious, so if that is called out anywhere let me know.
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There is a rage power to begin raging before Initiative/surprise rounds....
Also I don't get the people who think Unchained was supposed to buff Barbarians. Previously it was a$$ backwards rulings and weird oddball cases that made them the best martial. Now they actually seem to fit into the game more.
Yes. Nerf the martials lest the become too powerful and threaten the landed gentry wizards.
So I know there is a little blurb on the side that makes it pretty clear what rage powers the unchained Barbarian has access to.
What I am wondering is if there is any indication on what rage powers Core Barbarians and Skald's have access to.
Does it really come out and say that some of these rage powers are outright replacements for old rage powers for the other classes.
For instance, right now it doesn't seem like there is anything preventing a core barbarian or skald from taking say.. Come and Get me and the Stance rage power equivalent?
I'm curious, so if that is called out anywhere let me know.
Considering all the different interpretations, it's not clear.
Yes. Nerf the martials lest the become too powerful and threaten theThere is a rage power to begin raging before Initiative/surprise rounds....
Also I don't get the people who think Unchained was supposed to buff Barbarians. Previously it was a$$ backwards rulings and weird oddball cases that made them the best martial. Now they actually seem to fit into the game more.
landed gentrywizards.
I don't know what Wizards have to do with Paladins, Slayers, Rangers, ect.
Ugh. The move action to start a stance pretty much makes Rhino Charge a necessity for barbarians at 10th level combined with Greater Beast Totem for them to remain relevant, otherwise they don't even get to fight in the first round of combat.
I don't know what Wizards have to do with Paladins, Slayers, Rangers, ect.Yes. Nerf the martials lest the become too powerful and threaten theThere is a rage power to begin raging before Initiative/surprise rounds....
Also I don't get the people who think Unchained was supposed to buff Barbarians. Previously it was a$$ backwards rulings and weird oddball cases that made them the best martial. Now they actually seem to fit into the game more.
landed gentrywizards.
well the slayers they can just dominate, making a paladin fall is fantastically easy (i have unfortunately yet to play with a DM who doesnt take a near-fetishistic pride in forcing paladins to fall for som reason), and im still fairly sure between the simulacrum army/wishfactory and the REST of their expansive collection of school abilities and summons/debuffs/SoD/SoS spells the wizard can find SOME way to deal with the ranger.
Let me rephrase.
What does the previous Barbarian making a mockery of *listed classes* have to do with the Wizard?
Nothing. Stop trying to inject a completely different and totally unrelated problem into this discussion. Yes we KNOW casters are broken and it does not matter for this conversation.
Here we are talking about apples and apples while you bring up steak for some unknown reason.
I brought up steak because the normal barbarian was one of the few classes that threatened caster dominance. And now they've made it worse.
You're arguing that the barbarian is more in line with other martials. I'm arguing FRAK THAT! The barbarian could threaten the wizards dominance before, but no longer.
Also, it was a joke.
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The old Barbarian... doesn't make a mockery of listed classes, though? At least, not any more than the Paladin does. Using the nerfed Unchained Barbarian just leaves the Paladin alone at the top of the martial tier list.
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To reiterate, the Unchained Barbarian hasn't been nerfed in combat at all. The Spell Sunder thing is ambiguous, but possibly a nerf in terms of utility, not primarily combat.
That's the only power level nerf there is, and doesn't exactly bring the Barbarian down very much. Hell, their Saves are better than they ever were.
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To reiterate, the Unchained Barbarian hasn't been nerfed in combat at all. The Spell Sunder thing is ambiguous, but possibly a nerf in terms of utility, not primarily combat.
That's the only power level nerf there is, and doesn't exactly bring the Barbarian down very much. Hell, their Saves are better than they ever were.
The Barbarian did lose 1.5x rage bonus when 2-handing, which is a direct (albeit minor) nerf to combat power.
I really am more concerned with the utility nerf, though. The Barbarian was a much more competent class in terms of utility than most people gave it credit for with things like Spell Sunder and Strength Surge; if I were to pick a class to solo an adventure without spellcasting it would absolutely be a Barbarian.
To reiterate, the Unchained Barbarian hasn't been nerfed in combat at all. The Spell Sunder thing is ambiguous, but possibly a nerf in terms of utility, not primarily combat.
That's the only power level nerf there is, and doesn't exactly bring the Barbarian down very much. Hell, their Saves are better than they ever were.
How are their saves better? They lost their rage bonus on fortitude saves, and superstition no longer affects supernatural abilities. Those are both big losses.
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The Barbarian did lose 1.5x rage bonus when 2-handing, which is a direct (albeit minor) nerf to combat power.
They gained as much as they lost, though. Stances and Temporary HP both help quite a bit.
I really am more concerned with the utility nerf, though. The Barbarian was a much more competent class in terms of utility than most people gave it credit for with things like Spell Sunder and Strength Surge; if I were to pick a class to solo an adventure without spellcasting it would absolutely be a Barbarian.
That's also both the iffiest change in terms of being RAW (given that Sunder Enchantment is still allowed), and ridiculously easy to house rule back in.
How are their saves better? They lost their rage bonus on fortitude saves, and superstition no longer affects supernatural abilities. Those are both big losses.
Not really. The Supernatural ability loss hurts a bit, but all the Barbarian's bonuses now stack with each other (which wasn't the case previously) and since none are morale, they also stack with Morale bonuses, which is highly relevant given the common usage of Good Hope and Heroism at higher levels.
It's a net loss vs. supernatural abilities, and a slight net loss on Fort Saves (their best Save Category, remember) but a net gain on everything else (a net gain of +6 on Will Saves by 20th level assuming Heroism, for example...contrast with the net loss of -2 on Fort Saves).
From what I read stances just seemed to be rage powers the Barbarian already had, except weaker and made mutually exclusive with each other.
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From what I read stances just seemed to be rage powers the Barbarian already had, except weaker and made mutually exclusive with each other.
Uh...no.
There wasn't a power that gave +6 accuracy on all attacks previously (okay, not one that didn't come with a huge AC penalty, anyway), for example. Nor most other stance powers as 'all Rage every Rage' effects. Their bonuses are smaller than stuff like Strength Surge, but you can use them more than once per round, and don't have to Rage Cycle to use them every round.
Nor did they get new temp HP every fight (at 10th level and 4 fights a day, that's 60 extra HP a day, and 20 more that don't need to be healed).
And so on and so forth. There are a few losses, but the gains mostly outweigh them (again, except for Spell Sunder, and that one can be House Ruled back in really easy...it's debatably not even a House Rule).
From what I read stances just seemed to be rage powers the Barbarian already had, except weaker and made mutually exclusive with each other.
Don't forget eating up your move action to activate them.
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So it polarizes the Barbarian and lets them forget about a few powers. That's about it.
That's true to some degree, though Taunting Stance is a valid and low-investment alternative to Accurate Stance.
Now, saves. I'm going to run comparisons at level 5/10/15, without items or feats, then again with items/feats. Numbers are strictly bonuses, ignoring base stats and all that stuff. Human is assumed for the FCB, which he starts at level 3 after picking up Superstition with his first power.
Alright, let's. Though I think ignoring Base Saves and stats is a bit of a mistake. There comes a point where more of a Save is a waste, and Barbarians reach that point on Fort Saves pretty quick. At 10th (just for example), any Barbarian is gonna have at least a +10 Fort, +5 Ref, and +4 Will beyond what you list, which makes it +18, +11, +10 for the old Barbarian, and +16, +11, +12 on the new one (+18, +13, +14 with Good Hope or Heroism). I'd make that trade any day of the week.
Additionally, I think you're overstating the old version's difference in applicability. It didn't work on Extraordinary abilities, which aren't all that much more uncommon than Supernatural ones, really.
As for the 'with items' version. the extra 10k you save on the weapon can easily buy more than a +1 to al saves, and that savings actually goes up as you level (though, in fairness, so does the cost of save boosters).
So, for the majority of levels and virtually all of PFS play, the new Barbarian is equivalent or behind unless he can have Heroism cast on him by an outside source.
At the high levels the new Barbarian is ahead as long as he's not dealing with a supernatural effect or his Boots aren't up.
This assumes the new Barbarian spends the money on a (useless) Courageous weapon as opposed to, say, something that actually boosts his Saves. Reallocate those funds for other purposes, and that changes quite a bit.
There's also a distinct lack of awareness that Potions of Heroism are very real and not even all that expensive (admittedly a bit pricier in PFS). Or that having someone in the party with Good Hope is an excellent plan that the Barbarian actually now benefits from in terms of Saves.
Err, is there something wrong with your math?
Old Barbarian is rocking a +12,+9,+9 at 15 to New Barbarians +9,+9,+9. With items it's +16,+12,+12 vs +9,+9,+9. Unless you forgot to increase the numbers on New Barbarian the Old version has all around better saves at every level, with and without items.
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What +1 to all saves item is available for 10k?
I did some scanning and didn't see one that worked. To my knowledge, the only options are:
-Luckstone, costs 20k
-Pale Green Prism in its various forms. The pure and Flawed stones are 30k and 28k, respectively, so they're not applicable here. The Cracked stone is cheap at 4k but is a competence bonus, so the old Barbarian can use it but the new one can't (won't stack with Superstition).I could well have missed one though, so feel free to educate me.
A Cloak of Resistance leaps to mind.
Yes, the Old Barbarian can get one, too, but with 10k more the New Barbarian can afford a +1 better version all the way up through when the Old Barbarian maxes his out. By that point (probably the 15th level build...43k on a weapon + cloak is a bit steep for the 10th level build), the Courageous Weapon is costing enough more (22k) that all of those are pretty solidly within their price range, actually.
Good Hope (well, Heroism, but same spell) was covered in a couple places. I noted that it would push the new Barbarian ahead at the level where it was realistically plausible and by how much.
This is true, but I felt you were seriously underselling the likelihood of that happening. It may be that uncommon in PFS, where you play with different people every week, but in home games? Building to have access to it is not uncommon IME.
Potions of Heroism... eh. If you have to spam consumables to win then I don't call it winning. Feel free to disagree but that's where I stand on it.
I was more thinking for emergency use, where it seems a valid tactic.
New Barbarian's Will save bonus from Rage will stack with Superstition, so its at +9/+9/+12 (conditional on it being a Spell/SLA, but hey).
That is still a frackton less than +16,+12,+12. Same Will, but Oldbarian has +3 better Reflexes and +7(!) better Fortitude.
Losing that move action to activate stance is just really terrible...
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New Barbarian's Will save bonus from Rage will stack with Superstition, so its at +9/+9/+12 (conditional on it being a Spell/SLA, but hey).That is still a frackton less than +16,+12,+12. Same Will, but Oldbarian has +3 better Reflexes and +7(!) better Fortitude.
Uh...if you're looking at the 15th level build, even going with what he went with (which, as I noted, isn't necessarily the best route..or maybe it is at that level), you're ignoring the Boots, which make it +15, +15, +18. That's...quite the boost.
Losing that move action to activate stance is just really terrible...
I imagine a feat similar to Combat Style Master is going to be homebrewed for many groups that end up using the unchained barbarian.
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Losing that move action to activate stance is just really terrible...I imagine a feat similar to Combat Style Master is going to be homebrewed for many groups that end up using the unchained barbarian.
I'm House ruling that you can activate one as a Free Action when you begin a Rage, that means you only need to burn Move Actions to switch mid-fight.
That and adding Spell Sunder officially in are my Unchained Barbarian House Rules.
Perhaps you should explain exactly which set of numbers you're looking at and exactly what your issue is with them, because this statement does not make sense.New Barbarian's Will save bonus from Rage will stack with Superstition, so its at +9/+9/+12 (conditional on it being a Spell/SLA, but hey).That is still a frackton less than +16,+12,+12. Same Will, but Oldbarian has +3 better Reflexes and +7(!) better Fortitude.
These ones, from your post:
15, Old:
Fort: +12
Ref: +9
Will: +9
15, New:
Fort: +9 vs. Spells/SLAs
Ref: +9 vs. Spells/SLAs
Will: +3; +9 vs. Spells/SLAs
15, Old [+4 Courageous Furious weapon]:
Fort: +16
Ref: +12
Will: +12
15, New [Boots of the Battle Herald, +3 Courageous Furious weapon]:
Fort: +6; +9 vs. Spells/SLAs
Ref: +6; +9 vs. Spells/SLAs
Will: +9; +9 vs. Spells/SLAs
Right.
So the old Barbarian gets:
+6 Con from Rage
+2 to each save from Superstition, +3 for levels, +4 for the Human FCB (taken from levels 3-15 thus far).That's +9 on all of his saves, and another +3 on his Fort. Hence, +12/+9/+9.
The new Barbarian has the same bonuses from Superstition, but the Will bonus that Rage grants is no longer overridden by Superstition. At level 15 it's a +3.
So, he has +3 Will, and +9 to all saves contingent on the attack being a spell or SLA. +9/+9/+12.
When you add in weapons and feats...
The old Barbarian gets another +2 Con from Raging Vitality, which is +1 to his Fort save. A +4 Courageous Furious weapon adds +3 to all of his morale bonuses, so that's another +3 on his Superstition bonus. The Fort save is one low there, because his Con also goes up by 3. So it should be 17/12/12.The new Barbarian cannot, by my understanding, benefit from Raging Vitality (at the least it would be... awkward). His weapon is only a +3 Courageous Furious, so he's only adding +2 to his Morale bonuses.
However, he has Boots of the Battle Herald, which while active give a +4 Morale Bonus to all of his saves.
So, +4+2=+6 Morale, Will is still a +3 from Rage, and Superstition is still a +9.
Hence, 6/6/9, augmented to 15/15/18 by Superstition when it's working.
Make sense?
His confusion comes from the fact that for the Old Barb you aren't differentiating between saves and saves against Spells, SLA, and SU, thus he read your final +6; +9 Vs Spells and SLA, and meaning it's normally a +6, but it goes up to +9 against spells and SLA, not that it's +6 and increases by 9
Because a single class doing the most dmg (on average, Paladins are top vs Evil), having just about the best saves, having large utility due to Spell Sunder/eater of magic/strength Surge/ect, pounce, HP for days, and high AC if so chosen was a good idea.
I like the fact that Superstition is no longer a morale bonus and that Rage no longer is morale. Courageous was a terribly written enchantment.
I think that overall the new Barbarian is still very strong and useful compared to other martial classes without towering above them. Yes it's weaker than old Barby, but we should be asking where he sits in relation to his competitors not his old self.
I think that overall the new Barbarian is still very strong and useful compared to other martial classes without towering above them. Yes it's weaker than old Barby, but we should be asking where he sits in relation to his competitors not his old self.
His old self is his greatest competitor. What incentive does an experienced player have to play an Unchained Barbarian over a normal barbarian, assuming the GM does not ban the old?
None. There is virtually no reason to desire to play the new version.
The only people I can see playing an UBarbarian are those who found keeping track of strength changes too difficult.
I just explained why I don't find the old Barbarian to be a competitor at all. I mean sure, if you ignore that I find the Old Barbarian to be a stupidly written class then that argument makes sense.
It's like saying "well the new Summoner nerfs #rekt the spell list, so why would I ever play the new Summoner over the old"?
I think that overall the new Barbarian is still very strong and useful compared to other martial classes without towering above them. Yes it's weaker than old Barby, but we should be asking where he sits in relation to his competitors not his old self.His old self is his greatest competitor. What incentive does an experienced player have to play an Unchained Barbarian over a normal barbarian, assuming the GM does not ban the old?
None. There is virtually no reason to desire to play the new version.
The only people I can see playing an UBarbarian are those who found keeping track of strength changes too difficult.
I am an experienced player and I prefer the unchained version of the Barbarian over the core (or old).
One reason is that the core Barbarian's Rage is a disassociated mechanic, Rage is comparable to a viking berserk fighting style and it shouldn't give a bonus to Strength (like a spell Bull's Strength comes to mind), having an edge in combat (+ to hit and damage) and being harder to kill (temporary HP) defines ferocity in combat more accurately.
The after rage effects (fatigued for 1 minute) is more impulsive, less calculating and tactical making it an associated mechanic, extended moments of fury that define the crescendos' of combat.
So wait...
Rage should boost to hit and damage, instead of boosting Strength, which boosts to hit and damage?
That really does not make sense.
Of course it does.
The Weapon Focus feat and Weapon Specialisation feat boosts to hit and damage, without increasing strength.
So does Weapon Training.
And so now the Unchained Barbarians Rage is codified with how non-magical martial abilities function.
I am an experienced player and I prefer the unchained version of the Barbarian over the core (or old).
One reason is that the core Barbarian's Rage is a disassociated mechanic, Rage is comparable to a viking berserk fighting style and it shouldn't give a bonus to Strength (like a spell Bull's Strength comes to mind), having an edge in combat (+ to hit and damage) and being harder to kill (temporary HP) defines ferocity in combat more accurately.
The after rage effects (fatigued for 1 minute) is more impulsive, less calculating and tactical making it an associated mechanic, extended moments of fury that define the crescendos' of combat.
Well, it depends on what you imagine such a viking looked like in combat. Were they completely and utterly mad with rage, cutting down anyone and anything that they came across without thought, caught in a madness that they had to will themselves out of? If that's the case, you're talking about the frenzied berserker prestige class from 3.X, not the barbarian. Barbarian rage is a more generic, toned down type of berserking that's essentially handing over temporary control of the adrenal glands to the warrior. In that vein yes, temporary hit points makes sense, but so does a Strength boost.
And so now the Unchained Barbarians Rage is codified with how non-magical martial abilities function.
And that is important...why precisely?
And so now the Unchained Barbarians Rage is codified with how non-magical martial abilities function.And that is important...why precisely?
because now they cant go get angry and curl a fireplace poker, or lift a car off of their child while hopped up on that sweet sweet fight-or-flight adrenaline. since you cant do that in real life and that'd be unrealistic in a world with dragons and lightning-hurling beard men!
wait...
It really isn't important and mechanically the difference between str and +bonus is skills and two hand damage. It does make a pretty big difference for 2WF builds though.
If they make some rage powers to let you 2WF using STR to qualify instead of Dex I'd be a happy camper.
As for Kestrel
Why yes old Barby and old Summoner are banned from my games. Though the option to use the old Eidolon is available if my players don't want to be forced into a specific outsider.
Yes, the Unchained Barbarian was a nerf and anyone who knows anything about optimization knows this to be a fact.
At low levels of optimization I think Unchained Barb is stronger due to less reliance on obscure things like Rage Cycling, Courageous, Furious, and Rage Powers that are hidden aces.
Also PFS rulings are generally worth less than nothing for home tables due to the unique standards and practices within.
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And so now the Unchained Barbarians Rage is codified with how non-magical martial abilities function.And that is important...why precisely?
Codification and contextualisation is really important especially for new players (to learn the rules) as well as attempts to speed up game play.
Pathfinder inherited quite a bit of de-contextualised mechanics that only make sense on a singular basis rather than in a broader sense.
For example, Ki pool and Arcana Pool is codified, they both have the same mechanics, so you can play a Magus character and then play a Monk and not need to learn two different subsystems, they both have 1/2 level+ stat modifier to calculate amount of points in their respective pools, both Ki and Arcana cost points to use and they recharge after a nights rest.
I understand the need to compare the two barbarian classes, and the pros and cons of both on strictly a power level. And such a comparison is completely justified.
IMO, the Paizo designers are not strictly looking at things in a nerf/boost framework, playability has an important role to play.
Just trying to keep an open mind.
And so now the Unchained Barbarians Rage is codified with how non-magical martial abilities function.And that is important...why precisely?Codification and contextualisation is really important especially for new players (to learn the rules) as well as attempts to speed up game play.
Pathfinder inherited quite a bit of de-contextualised mechanics that only make sense on a singular basis rather than in a broader sense.
For example, Ki pool and Arcana Pool is codified, they both have the same mechanics, so you can play a Magus character and then play a Monk and not need to learn two different subsystems, they both have 1/2 level+ stat modifier to calculate amount of points in their respective pools, both Ki and Arcana cost points to use and they recharge after a nights rest.
I understand the need to compare the two barbarian classes, and the pros and cons of both on strictly a power level. And such a comparison is completely justified.
IMO, the Paizo designers are not strictly looking at things in a nerf/boost framework, playability has an important role to play.
Just trying to keep an open mind.
There are two problems with your reasoning.
One: if you're going to compare the monk to a magus in terms of new players, you're doing it wrong. The magus is potentially the most complicated class in the game in terms of all the math you have to do from round to round, or even attack/action to attack/action. The sheer number and size of the FAQs for that class probably match everything written for ALL other classes combined and then some. Furthermore, saying new players can understand the two subsystems because they can figure their pool size the same way is completely erroneous. Yes, the have 1/2 level + mod resource pools, but monks are also expected to keep at least one point in there at all times, magi aren't. Also, magi can expend their pool points to enhance their weapons, which can lead to some confusion when it comes to how that would stack with masterwork/magical weapons and penetrating DR. All monks do by default is get an extra attack when flurrying. Lastly, the refill conditions for these pools are not identical (and yes, that is important). The idea that this 'codification' is a design tactic meant to help new players might have some merit, but if so you've chosen a horrible example.
Two: you speak of speeding up gameplay yet the change made to rage in Unchained doesn't really help that much and hurts the barbarian in turn. Temporary hit points are a good thing, but Paizo would have had to change only part of one sentence in the Rage class ability to facilitate that improvement while still leaving everything else intact. That's it, one sentence. Also, there's virtually NOTHING in the game that provides morale bonuses to ability scores, so having to figure out stacking math isn't a factor here. As for figuring out the benefits of rage, you need 5 seconds (maybe 10) each for doing hit/damage, then AC/CMD, then Fort/Will saves. Boom, done in under a minute, write it on your sheet and you're good 'til level 11. The idea that this one time bit of book-keeping during the start of your first combat is slowing the game down does not seem to have a basis in reality.
Furthermore, I'm not sure what you mean by 'decontextualized mechanics'. Perhaps you could elaborate since it seems to me that, as it WAS written, the context a barbarian exists in is as a warrior that taps "the fury of their passion" to become "creatures of slaughter and spirits of war". Morale bonuses to Str/Con and a bonus to Will saves sounds quite appropriate for someone who does things like hurl small boulders when charging, shrug off supernatural fear, give himself fast healing, and smash the very ground his opponents walk on to rubble. By making it a flat, untyped bonus, this flavor is eliminated at the altar of "balance", much to the classes detriment both contextually/flavor-wise and mechanically. Also, many of the good powers a barbarian might want are now locked into stances, which makes no sense for a class that's require to be non-lawful and is described as knowing "little of training, preparation, or the rules of warfare".
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BARBARIAN SUMMARIZE IN THREE WORDS: AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN.
BETTER FOR PLAYING WITHOUT DEGREE IN ENGINEERING, BUT TRADE OFF IMMENSE VERSIMILITUDE FOR SIMPLICITY. BARBARIAN STILL FIND IT HILARIOUS THAT GODS OF UNIVERSE NERFING BARBARIAN SO CASTYS ABLE TO KEEP UP.
STILL, MIGHT BE FUN TO TRY. BARBARIAN CONSIDER TAKING UP TAI CHI. STANCE AM SAME KIND OF IDEA, RIGHT?
OMMM.
OMMM.
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Yes, the Unchained Barbarian was a nerf and anyone who knows anything about optimization knows this to be a fact.
I'm pretty good at optimization, and I disagree. It's more of a sidegrade than a downgrade (okay, if they lose Spell Sunder it's a downgrade, but that's not 100% clear, and can be easily house ruled back in even if it is). It certainly has disadvantages, but some Stances, several Rage Powers (DR 12 by level 12 not counting Totems!) and the Temporary HP mechanic in general are all very positive changes power-level wise.
I suppose it's a bit of a downgrade at higher levels due to the lack of some Courageous bonuses, but even there adding in Heroism or Good Hope does give some defensive bonuses in exchange, and Accurate Stance makes up for a lot if you lack a Bard.