Advice Against Mix-Maxed Character


Advice

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wizard is like the most broken-powerful class ever made.

Fixed that for you.

Quote:
If you aren't leaving them far behind broken-wise, you are doing something wrong. Keep taking levels in Warblade, and you'll catch up.

Normally untrue. Pathfinder martials can easily exceed a Warblade's Full Attack damage capacity. Where the Warblade shines is the Standard Action.

However this party doesn't seem very optimized at all...

[Also, he's not a Full Class Warblade, he multiclassed and is therefore a weaker Warblade than he otherwise would be.]


We're all relatively young since the players are all in college. And the rule for our GM is he allows LE and NE, but not CE, since he see's it as too often an excuse to do random evil things for the heck of it.

And to be honest its not entirely a players working against entire party deal, in detail its more of three players want to have the campaign go one way, two other players want to keep following the campaign plot points, though one tends to sidetrack a bit, and the only reason I think of ways to deal with the two players is because working together they virtually wipe the floor in combat and since they are in a position of power in that they can strongarm the group to do what they want through either money, transportation (they own and control the ship, including the crew), or outright combat, for me its simply a contingency plan so that if the two players decide to go too far, the rest of the party has a chance to rein them in before they cause too much damage.

Sovereign Court

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Tormsskull wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I've never actually SEEN somebody not start with an 18 or better in their primary stat at the table. Ever.
I assume you play exclusively with point-buy stat generation method?
The players I've played with were prone to suicide their characters either openly via reroll or subtly via Leeroy Jenkins style play, until they acquired a character whose stats they were happy with. [Keep in mind starting with an 18 only requires having a 16 in the base stat before racial mods.]

Seems like your group should just use point-buy instead of rolling.


We actually do use point-buy, and used the 20 point system for this campaign


Brother Fen wrote:

This initial post ranks as the absolute worst case scenario I've ever heard for a gaming table. I don't allow evil at my table for just these reasons, unless your goal is to have players vs players, in which case it's anything goes.

I am going to take a stab and say everyone playing is very young. I have trouble keeping my own younger players under control when they play because they think they're playing Magic or Hero Clix and are always trying to work against the party for their own ends.

I suppose it's worth mentioning that we are in the process of starting a side campaign with all evil anything goes characters. My younger players have been asking to play dragons and werewolves and such, so I thought putting them in their own campaign would be the best thing to do.


lol. as I've said before, I do not care for PvP.

With that said, if you want to be evil, just hire Devils to kill them. Sell your soul. the redemption arc can be getting the soul contract.

BUT FIRST! Make sure the players are ok with you trying to kill their characters.


kyrt-ryder wrote that Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Wizard is like the most broken-powerful class ever made.

Fixed that for you.

Don't do that. It looks like you are putting words in my mouth.

Wizards are not the most powerful class. They're just one of the easiest to play.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote that Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Wizard is like the most broken-powerful class ever made.

Fixed that for you.

Don't do that. It looks like you are putting words in my mouth.

Wizards are not the most powerful class. They're just one of the easiest to play.

They are one of the most powerful though. I think it's most full casters...

Frankly, I rank Sorcerers as the most powerful, but that's just my opinion.

Scariest character in my last game was a fighter/druid multiclass who never used wildshape but was hitting for 240+ per hit...


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

wizards definitely are not the easiest to play, give it to any newb and he won't be able to make head or tails of the spell list, or how to get spells that he focus on a abuse. the wizard definitely is the most powerful.

but lets not start this discussion.


Bandw2 wrote:

wizards definitely are not the easiest to play, give it to any newb and he won't be able to make head or tails of the spell list, or how to get spells that he focus on a abuse. the wizard definitely is the most powerful.

but lets not start this discussion.

I think we already did when someone made the claim that Warblade was the most powerful class ever.

Sure it beats the snot out of 3.5 martials and PF's Wimpy Trio [Fighter/Rogue/Monk] but it's a serious challenge choosing between a PF Barbarian [not Unchained], PF Paladin or a Warblade.


alexd1976 wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote that Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Wizard is like the most broken-powerful class ever made.

Fixed that for you.

Don't do that. It looks like you are putting words in my mouth.

Wizards are not the most powerful class. They're just one of the easiest to play.

They are one of the most powerful though. I think it's most full casters...

Frankly, I rank Sorcerers as the most powerful, but that's just my opinion.

Scariest character in my last game was a fighter/druid multiclass who never used wildshape but was hitting for 240+ per hit...

Ah, I've seen a few of those. How was his configured?


Bandw2 wrote:

wizards definitely are not the easiest to play, give it to any newb and he won't be able to make head or tails of the spell list, or how to get spells that he focus on a abuse. the wizard definitely is the most powerful.

but lets not start this discussion.

There's always a lot to learn for a new player. For a new player with a Wizard, the biggest part is the spell list. But if the player doesn't pick the best spells to memorize on his first day of playing, he can pick better spells tomorrow. Wizards base their power on a large pool of spells that they can change their minds about every day. In this, they can make 1 mistake after another, and unless they actually get killed, none of these mistakes will prevent the wizard from becoming very powerful. And remember there is no limit to the number of spells a wizard can learn, so the pool of decision-making only gets bigger.

Even easier than wizard is (good) cleric. Since all clerics can cast all cleric spells up to the level, they have tremendous latitude for changing their minds completely about how their characters work, and on their worst days when they make not a single good decision about which spell to prepare, they can still heal everybody.

Fighters, on the other hand, are the hardest characters to run. The power of a fighter depends on assembling a small number of special abilities--feats--that interact and combine in powerful ways. And once you have chosen your feats, you can't change your mind later. Creating a powerful fighter requires a nuanced understanding of the rules and planning things out many levels in advance and even predicting the kinds of challenges the GM will throw at you.

If you're talking about making a pregen to be run for one night only by your players' girl- or boy- friends when they tag along and want to join in, then sure, give them a 2 handed beatstick with Great Cleave and Furious Focus. But when the time comes to make his or her own character and guide that character from level 1 to level 12, wizard is one of the easiest classes to do that with without making a character that completely sucks. Clerics are easier.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

wizards definitely are not the easiest to play, give it to any newb and he won't be able to make head or tails of the spell list, or how to get spells that he focus on a abuse. the wizard definitely is the most powerful.

but lets not start this discussion.

I think we already did when someone made the claim that Warblade was the most powerful class ever.

Sure it beats the snot out of 3.5 martials and PF's Wimpy Trio [Fighter/Rogue/Monk] but it's a serious challenge choosing between a PF Barbarian [not Unchained], PF Paladin or a Warblade.

And also remember that the OP is allowed to combine 3.5 AND Pathfinder, even including Warblade. He can do things like take Great Sunder and Combat Brute, breaking opponents' armor, the residual damage going to the wearer, then getting a free action attack on top of that. Then he can take Pushback so that the Free Action attack becomes a free Bull Rush, and then Shock Trooper where if he Bull Rushes one guy into another guy, then he gets to Trip both of them. If he takes the 3.5 Improved Trip, he gets Free Action attacks on both of them. If he takes Greater Trip, he gets Attacks of Opportunity on both of them. If he takes Greater Bull Rush all his Allies get attacks of opportunity. If he takes a 1-level dip into Cavalier and Paired Opportunist, he gets the AoO from the Bull Rush and his allies get ones from the Trips. All that + Warblade!

And you say Warblades excel in the Standard Action? The attack routine I described happens in a single standard action. You know what else only takes 1 standard Action? Great Cleave.

Seriously, if you have a Pathfinder/3.5 Warblade that is not truly terrifying on the battlefield, you are doing something wrong, or you're still level 1.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If they are are allowing 3.5...Dweomerkeeper *ducks and runs for cover*

Though the Dragonfire Adept and Warlock from 3.5 were among my favorite classes. Neither were supreme...but they could fill their niche quite well.

Oh wait...3.5 means Psionics *mouth waters* oooh...you could play the Summoner's precursor...the Constructor.


MartialPlayer603 wrote:
We actually do use point-buy, and used the 20 point system for this campaign

What? And you consider +4 good at level 13? Remember everyone they are level 13 now. Did you opt to make the most average character you possibly could? I really don't see how you could not have better than +4 at level 13. Do you have no magic items other than weapons? You mentioned that most people were making do with +2 weapons. Calculate the value of all of your gear and post it please. I am dying to know.

But back to point buy Assuming you only started with a 16 in your prime stat (either because the race didn't have a boost to it or because you wanted to put points elsewhere) and you should have started absolutely no lower in your prime stat. 20 point buy is plenty good for putting points into flavor stats and affording a 16 in a single stat. Anyways assuming you start at 16 by level 13 you should baseline have 19 in that stat as sinse you spread your stats around at character creation you don't need to boost your secondary stats with level ups, as it shown by having 16 in your primary stat.

So you have 19 base line. A 4000 gold belt or headband will give you +2 in a stat. That costs half (less than half) a +2 weapon. I can't see any reason you would not have at least that, bringing you up to 21; +5

If any of that did not make perfect sense to you even if you did not agree with it and I can't stress that last phrase enough, please look up the guide to the guides here on the forums and read... anything on it. This will save you a great deal of future grief.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have to agree that when using 20 point-buy system, a 16 is a very common starting attribute and a 17 is pretty common for what is mostly a single attribute class (wizard, cleric, oracle, fighter).

At level 13, I would expect most to have at least a +4 to one attribute item so a +5 modifier in the main attribute would be common. You are probably looking at +3 at the low end.

Sovereign Court

BretI wrote:
I have to agree that when using 20 point-buy system, a 16 is a very common starting attribute and a 17 is pretty common for what is mostly a single attribute class (wizard, cleric, oracle, fighter).

That's pre-racial. It's actually a bit rare to see a truly SAD class (wizard/sorcerer etc) start without a 20 in their casting stat post racial in a 20pt buy. 19 min.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
BretI wrote:
I have to agree that when using 20 point-buy system, a 16 is a very common starting attribute and a 17 is pretty common for what is mostly a single attribute class (wizard, cleric, oracle, fighter).
That's pre-racial. It's actually a bit rare to see a truly SAD class (wizard/sorcerer etc) start without a 20 in their casting stat post racial in a 20pt buy. 19 min.

I think that you will find that there is a lot of table variation. When I said he must have had at least 16 in the stat to start I meant post racial. Sometimes people need/want to start with 16 in their prime stat for reasons. However most of the time people dump 10 points into their prime stat, make sure they get a racial bonus and call it a day at 18. Only very rarely have I seen someone with a stat in which they put 17 points into and started at 20 without other obscure modifiers like age.

Also none of these guys are sad they are all martial and need at least dex and con, most need strength dexterity and constitution. So starting at 16 in your attack stat is understandable.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

wizards definitely are not the easiest to play, give it to any newb and he won't be able to make head or tails of the spell list, or how to get spells that he focus on a abuse. the wizard definitely is the most powerful.

but lets not start this discussion.

There's always a lot to learn for a new player. For a new player with a Wizard, the biggest part is the spell list. But if the player doesn't pick the best spells to memorize on his first day of playing, he can pick better spells tomorrow. Wizards base their power on a large pool of spells that they can change their minds about every day. In this, they can make 1 mistake after another, and unless they actually get killed, none of these mistakes will prevent the wizard from becoming very powerful. And remember there is no limit to the number of spells a wizard can learn, so the pool of decision-making only gets bigger.

Even easier than wizard is (good) cleric. Since all clerics can cast all cleric spells up to the level, they have tremendous latitude for changing their minds completely about how their characters work, and on their worst days when they make not a single good decision about which spell to prepare, they can still heal everybody.

Fighters, on the other hand, are the hardest characters to run. The power of a fighter depends on assembling a small number of special abilities--feats--that interact and combine in powerful ways. And once you have chosen your feats, you can't change your mind later. Creating a powerful fighter requires a nuanced understanding of the rules and planning things out many levels in advance and even predicting the kinds of challenges the GM will throw at you.

If you're talking about making a pregen to be run for one night only by your players' girl- or boy- friends when they tag along and want to join in, then sure, give them a 2 handed beatstick with Great Cleave and Furious Focus. But when the time comes to make his or her own character and guide that character from level...

i had to explain to someone SEVERAL times how they can acquire new spells. it isn't straight forward, and they still need to be able to properly pick their spells for that day. you need to set up a lot of your character to get spells that really dominate.

fighters, always work one way and are slowly built they always do the one thing they were built for. you take power attack he power attacks forever now. you take dodge, +1 to AC, you take mobility you get +4 to AC on AoO. it's way easier to keep track of your fighter.


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I like how this git sidetracked into class discussion because it's more fun than helping a guy turn evil and kill his friends and his game.


Bandw2 wrote:
i had to explain to someone SEVERAL times how they can acquire new spells.

That's not really evidence of anything. It's just one person who wasn't quick on the uptake that day. Also, you aren't really addressing my point.

Bandw2 wrote:
it isn't straight forward,

Nothing about this game is straightforward: the book containing the most basic rules of this game is hundreds of pages long.

Anyway, this is hardly to the point, and doesn't really belong on this thread.

Bandw2 wrote:
and they still need to be able to properly pick their spells for that day.

Yes, THAT DAY! They can completely screw up that day, erase their spell choices, and try it again tomorrow from scratch. Screwing up your fighter's feats is not nearly that forgiving. And that makes playing clerics and wizards FAR easier than playing fighters.

But again, hardly to the point I was making, and it doesn't really belong on this thread.

Bandw2 wrote:
you need to set up a lot of your character to get spells that really dominate.

Not that hard. If it's a wizard make sure your intelligence is high, then just acquire those spells. Look for every chance when you are adventuring to acquire more spells, and expect your GM to metagame to keep you from acquiring all the spells you should get. If it's a cleric, spells are based in wisdom, channeling is based on charisma.

If it's a martial character, attack and damage are based on Strength, unless it's a Finesse or Attack of Opportunity Build, then it's also--sometimes entirely-- based on Dexterity. The number of attacks per round might be based on Dexterity, or you might use different feats like Cleave for more attacks. But that will lower your AC, and Dex always helps with AC unless you decide to wear heavy armor. You might not want to wear armor that's too heavy because maybe you want to dip into something and get Evasion. If you aren't dipping, then you're Reflex and Will Saves will be very low, and you might consider keeping your wisdom high, too, or just resign yourself to failing lots of saves. You don't have to worry about that stuff when you are a wizard: keep your Intelligence high, and stay out of melee: no problem.

But really, this isn't relevant to the point I was making, and it's off-topic to the thread.

Bandw2 wrote:
fighters, always work one way and are slowly built they always do the one thing they were built for.

And that is precisely what makes them harder to play. They only do "the one thing they were built for." So if you aren't very careful about picking what you build them to do, planning your character many levels in advance and developing a nuanced understanding of the rules, predicting what will happen in fights in the future and figuring out how your abilities will work in those future fights, your fighter will suck.

Bandw2 wrote:
it's way easier to keep track of your fighter.

In one gaming session, maybe. But for designing a character and guiding it from level 1 to level 12, fighters are the hardest to do that with. Wizards are the easy. What spells do you want to learn? All of them! Which ones do you pick that day? Depends on the day, trial and error, ask around, live an learn. If you didn't pick the best spells today, no big deal. Pick better ones tomorrow.

What's hard is when your character's power is based on finding, queuing and combining special combinations of small numbers of feats and class abilities that you only get like one of per level, trying to balance between the most powerful combinations and not having to wait too many levels before you put together something good.

To any of you who think that martial characters are weak and easy to play, I say YOUR martial characters are weak because you THINK they are easy to play.

But this is not to the point, either.

The point I was making is that the OP's GM is remarkable in allowing 3.5 AND Pathfinder rules, even the Book of Nine Brokens. And anyone who is bothered about having his Pathfinder-Warblade (!) being out minmaxed is clearly doing something wrong.

I'm a little surprised that I'm even being attacked about that.

Meanwhile, dear OP, I advise you to mellow out about being out-minmaxed--live and learn--and just roleplay your character's alignment change turning into an evil rascal and eventually learning the error of his ways "I will pass through the Pearly Gates, Father, even if I have to pick the lock!" Let your fellow players take credit for saving your soul like Luke and the Rebels saved Han Solo's. It will be a good story if you and your fellows let it be, and that's what it's supposed to be about.

Or,

I have a lot of advice about how to combine Pathfinder and 3.5 Feats for ridiculously powerful characters. Show us your build and what you were going for, and we'll optimize it together.


Thats for the change in topic I guess, and yeah I think the GM is making a change in that he's having everyone rebuild their characters, and if people want to keep characters the way they are they can keep it, but I'm taking his advice and changing my character up, and I'll most likely take a few levels in Phoenix Mage since they looks like a good way to get some spells into my character without sacrificing too much damage, and since we've gotten to higher levels I'm thinking that AC matters and lot less and focus more on damage and saves while using the gold I have to see about getting an item with miss chance.


Also like I said before, I'm not planning on killing the two players, at least not intentionally, its me just having a plan to make sure that if the two players go on a power trip or start threatening to kill other players that I at least have a plan that wont immediately be a suicide charge.


Tormsskull wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I've never actually SEEN somebody not start with an 18 or better in their primary stat at the table. Ever.
I assume you play exclusively with point-buy stat generation method?

Just last week I built a 25 point buy human character whose highest stat is a 16 after racial modifiers. I rarely start off with an 18 in a stat because I hate having characters with less than a 10 in any stat.


MartialPlayer603 wrote:
Thats for the change in topic I guess, and yeah I think the GM is making a change in that he's having everyone rebuild their characters, and if people want to keep characters the way they are they can keep it, but I'm taking his advice and changing my character up, and I'll most likely take a few levels in Phoenix Mage since they looks like a good way to get some spells into my character without sacrificing too much damage, and since we've gotten to higher levels I'm thinking that AC matters and lot less and focus more on damage and saves while using the gold I have to see about getting an item with miss chance.

Give us an idea of what you want for your character concept? Sure you want to do lots of damgage--we all want that--but how? Do you want a Crit-fishing build? Do you want a 2 handed beatstick? Do you want to use a weapon and shield? Do you want to be all finessey and dex-y? Is reach important to you? Do you want to be an archer? Do you want to be a thrower? Is it important to you to be able to take out 1 big monster or lots of little ones?

MartialPlayer603 wrote:
we've gotten to higher levels

What level?

MartialPlayer603 wrote:
AC matters [a] lot less and focus more on damage

Maaaaaaaybe. I need to see your character. Nobody wants to be a glass cannon.

MartialPlayer603 wrote:
and saves

My characters seem to always have high saves. I like to multiclass a lot, and high saves tends to be an artifact of multiclassing.

MartialPlayer603 wrote:
using the gold I have to see about getting an item with miss chance.

Ah, a miss chance. I recommend the Eversmoking Bottle. All that smoke makes everybody Blind: 50% Miss Chance. That's as good as it gets. There is a bit of a problem with your character going Blind, too, but not if you plan accordingly.

There is a level 1 Warblade Tiger Claw Stance called Hunter's Sense that gives you Scent. Then take the Blind Fighting Feat. With Blind Fighting, you will be able to navigate through the smoke, and you will retain your dex bonus to AC. With Scent, you will detect the presence of your enemies within 30' of you; you will automatically know which square your opponent is in if he is within 5' of you, and you can tell which direction he is in if he is within 30' at the cost of a Move Action (You also gain Tracking.). Other people with have to make Perception (or Spot?) Checks opposed by Stealth Checks with +20 due to Invisibility. Your opponents, once you find them, they still enjoy Total Concealment and a 50% miss chance, but with Blind Fighting, you get a re-roll every time, making it a 25% miss chance.

There is another problem with the Eversmoking Bottle. It makes smoke in a 20' radius, and so it will probably make your Allies Blind, too. If your allies have not similarly prepared their characters against the contingent of going Blind, then they will be screwed. But you have something of an interest in screwing with your fellow players, anyway, so that may not be a problem at all with you. If your fellow players do prepare their characters to deal with Blindness, then your whole party will have a new, terrific tactical ability, and you will all have a strong motivation to keep working together.

Once you have an Eversmoking Bottle, consider purchasing Cloudwalking Slippers. They are not very expensive, and they will sort of give you Air Walk.


MartialPlayer603 wrote:
one of them is able to constantly roll crits

I doubt that. I'd doubt even 50% crits.

Things which improve crit range don't stack. Best anyone could possibly do is 14-20 crit range (highest crit range weapon + keen (or anything else which doubles crit range) + Numerological Gift). That's 35% crit THREAT rate. And every critical "threat" has to be confirmed so by envelope calculations the best crit rate you can get is more like 25%.

That may be the only thing that needs to be corrected.

I think it's just you remember the crits better than the normal hits. I have no doubt there were streaks of non-stop crits, you'll remember them better than the mundane or crap rolls.

"with AC above 25"

Not that great, against mobs who have just +9 to hit (that mobs can easily get with +4STR and +4BAB +1Mwk wep) they're going to be hit 25% of the time. That's dangerously high hit rate if you actually care about your character continuing with the story as they can easily be munched in a few rolls.

"attack bonus of at least +21 on their first attacks"

You did say they are level 11. If they have fast BAB (as frontline combatants should) they need find only a +10 further bonus, easy at level 11. They should be aiming for 75% hit rate and considering how many AC27 foes there are beyond level 10 they'll NEED a +21.

" My spells cant hold them down usually since their saves are good enough to beat them most of the time"

I thought you said "the party" are you working with them or against them?

"which could be cut short if the two decided I need to be killed."

No matter how tough they are that is 2 on 1, you should be able to avoid both of your allies traitorously murdering you by regular old RP. Be persuasive.

They've played the game as it's intended to be played.

Sovereign Court

bookrat wrote:
Tormsskull wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I've never actually SEEN somebody not start with an 18 or better in their primary stat at the table. Ever.
I assume you play exclusively with point-buy stat generation method?
Just last week I built a 25 point buy human character whose highest stat is a 16 after racial modifiers. I rarely start off with an 18 in a stat because I hate having characters with less than a 10 in any stat.

I'm sorry - but I can't think of any class where that would be a good idea even if you don't dump stat. Even the most MAD classes should have a post-racial 18 with a 25pt buy. The lack of dump-statting just prevents a 2nd 18.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Tormsskull wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I've never actually SEEN somebody not start with an 18 or better in their primary stat at the table. Ever.
I assume you play exclusively with point-buy stat generation method?
Just last week I built a 25 point buy human character whose highest stat is a 16 after racial modifiers. I rarely start off with an 18 in a stat because I hate having characters with less than a 10 in any stat.
I'm sorry - but I can't think of any class where that would be a good idea even if you don't dump stat. Even the most MAD classes should have a post-racial 18 with a 25pt buy.

As much as I also hate having a stat below 10, the game frequently forces it on you depending on the point buy and class involved.

With a 25 point buy, you can get 16 for a primary stat before racials and still have 15 point buy left to play with.

I've even built a Wizard who started with an 18 post-racial Int a 10 point buy game.

Dark Archive

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Tormsskull wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I've never actually SEEN somebody not start with an 18 or better in their primary stat at the table. Ever.
I assume you play exclusively with point-buy stat generation method?
Just last week I built a 25 point buy human character whose highest stat is a 16 after racial modifiers. I rarely start off with an 18 in a stat because I hate having characters with less than a 10 in any stat.
I'm sorry - but I can't think of any class where that would be a good idea even if you don't dump stat. Even the most MAD classes should have a post-racial 18 with a 25pt buy. The lack of dump-statting just prevents a 2nd 18.

I've built a number of Reach Oracles, Str-based Dwarves and other characters that only have a 16 or 17 in their highest stat. I generally play in games that are 20 or 25PB, which means that unless I go Human (or one of the Aasimar heritages that specifically only boosts the stats I want boosted) it's the best I can do.

Sometimes you just don't want to dump stats. I know most of my PoW martials enjoy their extra skill points/class abilities far too much to justify dumping ANY of their stats.

Will you be slightly less effective at level 1 with a 16 Str or Int or whatever instead of an 18? Yeah. Is it going to make you useless? Nah.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Tormsskull wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
I've never actually SEEN somebody not start with an 18 or better in their primary stat at the table. Ever.
I assume you play exclusively with point-buy stat generation method?
Just last week I built a 25 point buy human character whose highest stat is a 16 after racial modifiers. I rarely start off with an 18 in a stat because I hate having characters with less than a 10 in any stat.
I'm sorry - but I can't think of any class where that would be a good idea even if you don't dump stat. Even the most MAD classes should have a post-racial 18 with a 25pt buy. The lack of dump-statting just prevents a 2nd 18.

Eh. Doesn't bother me. I'm of the opinion that I don't need an 18 to make a good character. Some people disagree, and that's perfectly fine, but I like my characters more well rounded.

For that particular character, here's his stats:

Ability Scores:
Strength: 14 (5 Points) +2 Racial Bonus = 16
Dexterity: 14 (5 Points)
Constitution: 13 (3 Points)
Intelligence 14 (5 Points)
Wisdom 14 (5 Points)
Charisma 12 (2 Points)
Total: 25 Point Buy


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Wizards are not the most powerful class. They're just one of the easiest to play.

W-what? Wizards are the most powerful class and also the hardest to play. Very finnicky and a lot of things to keep track of, plus a lot of complex spells.

Anyway, has anyone suggested to the OP to use the retraining option to make his character not garbage? His buddies don't really sound super powerful, anyway

Community Manager

Removed a post that bypassed our profanity filter.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote that Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Wizard is like the most broken-powerful class ever made.

Fixed that for you.

Don't do that. It looks like you are putting words in my mouth.

Wizards are not the most powerful class. They're just one of the easiest to play.

They are one of the most powerful though. I think it's most full casters...

Frankly, I rank Sorcerers as the most powerful, but that's just my opinion.

Scariest character in my last game was a fighter/druid multiclass who never used wildshape but was hitting for 240+ per hit...

Ah, I've seen a few of those. How was his configured?

Blink Dog as race, urban druid with enough levels to get the 1000 faces ability (so he posed as human all the time). Most of his levels were fighter, focusing on two handed weapon stuff (forget which polearm it was, the one that could entangle flyers, using Trip mechanic).

Due to Blink Dog race, he also took the feats allowing him to pop around the battlefield at will, flanking with himself etc...

Was a mythic game too, so he went vital strike chain.

He was able to one-shot most things, couldn't say the same of the casters.

This is not to say the casters couldn't have done more damage, they just weren't built to max out dps like his build was.

So! The druid/fighter multiclass barely used his spells, he focused on melee and dominated combat, like, big time.

Mythic gives way more to martials than to casters, in my opinion.


Hate to dig up an older post, but I'm actually another player in this little "team", as the rogue pilot who really can't get to the fight before the main two have kritzkrieged the thing to oblivion. I also run the cursed dragon. 14 racial hit die and few spelllike abilities made me a BIG fan of playing martial characters ( I now will sing the praises of Two Handed Power Attack until my dying day). I'm also the least experienced player in the group.

Some Updates:

1) After the DM granted a free rebuild after the introduction of the unchained classes, I'm slightly stronger overall, especially with those skill unlocks. He offered this option to any player with an unchainable variant (I was the only one to take him up on this, since the other two with the option didn't see what was mechanically different... *group sigh of disappointment*)

2) Before the campaign began, but with the main plot chosen, we on Team Couch developed a pretty decent team built around being on an airship. I don't remember why we didn't coordinate with the Dragonborn, but our fifth member was quite opposed to both airships and developing a completely new character concept (It takes them a really long time to develop a character, and is not happy until they have a biography of their character's backstory. Just roll with it. They're now happily playing an Assassin's Creed assassin, and as the other rogue I get in on some the fun) So 3/5 of the party show up to the first session with a airship crew, and 2/5 did... not. Great cohesion.

3) Party cohesion has greatly improved since our most recent session. We raided a ship carrying 250,000 gp aboard. Our Assassin wanted this shipment stopped due to backstory reasons, and the rest were in because that's a LOT OF MONEY. After brutally slaughtering a bunch of innocent, lower-level guards and incapacitating their captain, we're all filthy rich and have a much better sense of team unity. It was out first time actually coordinating an attack since the raid to assassinate the princess/succubus in our first campaign! I don't remember the last time my rogue actually got to attack something before the enemy got destroyed or did a ton of damage to an ally that scared me off (I swear I will never leave a 10 in CON ever again.)

So, all's well until we have the Assassin/Templar conflict rise to a head and my character is forced to face her fiance once more. Plot twists, ho!


Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
MartialPlayer603 wrote:
one of them is able to constantly roll crits

I doubt that. I'd doubt even 50% crits.

Bro, you weren't sitting there, watching crit after crit after crit being rolled, laughing at the implausibility of it, lacking any other reaction. This situation has happened several times. he swashbuckler literally got three 20s in a row once (the poor assassin got three 1s in a row.) No, they don't have loaded dice. Once out of combat I swear its a minor miracle for them to roll above 10.

It hurts the soul watching an encounter end before your character can even move to be in combat range...

Silver Crusade

I actually have a bunch of builds made with nothing dips and they tend to annoy other (stricter minded) players by being too good and the usual "Is anyone a blah?" "I am!" The builds tend to mimic a regular fighter but a LOT of other abilities on top of feats every level. Message me and I can help make something unique and good.

P.S. I don't mean to sound like a jerk in this but I get annoyed when they won't let me do something RAW because a Paizo designer didn't comment on it, like alignment rules and monk dipping. It made sense for the character too...


If there are min-maxed characters in the group and you are not having fun, it's your GM's fault. I had that happened in my group many times, but your GM have to realize that some players either like or need to min-max due to their perception of the game or previous gaming experience. Your GM need to be flexible and have plans for each character that is story driven as well as mechanic driven. How about some decision making that doesn't require dice rolls, spell casting or any abilities? That will drive the story forward while making all the characters have fun. How about combat that requires tactics and team work? I had player playing commoner in my game while everyone else played PC classes, he had fun just as much as everyone in and out of combat. Also it pays to learn your players and their characters, which helped me to plan games for everyone to have fun does matter who and what they play.

Silver Crusade

SiuoL wrote:
If there are min-maxed characters in the group and you are not having fun, it's your GM's fault. I had that happened in my group many times, but your GM have to realize that some players either like or need to min-max due to their perception of the game or previous gaming experience. Your GM need to be flexible and have plans for each character that is story driven as well as mechanic driven. How about some decision making that doesn't require dice rolls, spell casting or any abilities? That will drive the story forward while making all the characters have fun. How about combat that requires tactics and team work? I had player playing commoner in my game while everyone else played PC classes, he had fun just as much as everyone in and out of combat. Also it pays to learn your players and their characters, which helped me to plan games for everyone to have fun does matter who and what they play.

There is no reason to point fingers or to blame. Anyone can give story to their mechanics or mechanics to their story. They can build them both together too. Any of those options is fine.

If I recall, the two main destroyers are melee combatants. I would bring up to the GM to create encounters playing against their weaknesses and turning their strategies against them. Create multiple threats in an encounter from multiple sides so that they can't cover everything. Make situations they aren't designed to handle. If they rush, make traps they could never have seen. You could create enemies that mimic them and play then at their own game.


coveredinspiders wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
MartialPlayer603 wrote:
one of them is able to constantly roll crits

I doubt that. I'd doubt even 50% crits.

Bro, you weren't sitting there, watching crit after crit after crit being rolled, laughing at the implausibility of it, lacking any other reaction. This situation has happened several times. he swashbuckler literally got three 20s in a row once (the poor assassin got three 1s in a row.) No, they don't have loaded dice. Once out of combat I swear its a minor miracle for them to roll above 10.

It hurts the soul watching an encounter end before your character can even move to be in combat range...

Well, then checking the dices may just be a good idea anyway. I've never heard about loaded 20 faced dices they should certainly be possible. And there's this thing called "switching the dices with regular ones" done to lend credibility to the whole thing. A bit extreme for an RPG, but some people are just like that unfortunately.


Rogar Valertis wrote:
coveredinspiders wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
MartialPlayer603 wrote:
one of them is able to constantly roll crits

I doubt that. I'd doubt even 50% crits.

Bro, you weren't sitting there, watching crit after crit after crit being rolled, laughing at the implausibility of it, lacking any other reaction. This situation has happened several times. he swashbuckler literally got three 20s in a row once (the poor assassin got three 1s in a row.) No, they don't have loaded dice. Once out of combat I swear its a minor miracle for them to roll above 10.

It hurts the soul watching an encounter end before your character can even move to be in combat range...

Well, then checking the dices may just be a good idea anyway. I've never heard about loaded 20 faced dices they should certainly be possible. And there's this thing called "switching the dices with regular ones" done to lend credibility to the whole thing. A bit extreme for an RPG, but some people are just like that unfortunately.

The die might not be intentionally loaded - there are several flaws in the manufacturing process that can cause bubbles to form inside the die. I once had one that we figured was lucky, until we decided to cut it open after doing a hundred test rolls and never rolling anything below 10. Transparent die don't have this issue, which is why we only use them now.


Rogar Valertis wrote:
coveredinspiders wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
MartialPlayer603 wrote:
one of them is able to constantly roll crits

I doubt that. I'd doubt even 50% crits.

Bro, you weren't sitting there, watching crit after crit after crit being rolled, laughing at the implausibility of it, lacking any other reaction. This situation has happened several times. he swashbuckler literally got three 20s in a row once (the poor assassin got three 1s in a row.) No, they don't have loaded dice. Once out of combat I swear its a minor miracle for them to roll above 10.

It hurts the soul watching an encounter end before your character can even move to be in combat range...

Well, then checking the dices may just be a good idea anyway. I've never heard about loaded 20 faced dices they should certainly be possible. And there's this thing called "switching the dices with regular ones" done to lend credibility to the whole thing. A bit extreme for an RPG, but some people are just like that unfortunately.

they only have one set of dice and it stays on the table throughout.


zanbato13 wrote:

If I recall, the two main destroyers are melee combatants. I would bring up to the GM to create encounters playing against their weaknesses and turning their strategies against them. Create multiple threats in an encounter from multiple sides so that they can't cover everything. Make situations they aren't designed to handle. If they rush, make traps they could never have seen. You could create enemies that mimic them and play then at their own game.

the DM has crit/precision/flanking immune monsters coming up. I'm looking forward to it, and I've already started preparing for it. (Free Weapon Finesse + Light Mace = i can do something other than piercing damage!)


coveredinspiders wrote:
zanbato13 wrote:

If I recall, the two main destroyers are melee combatants. I would bring up to the GM to create encounters playing against their weaknesses and turning their strategies against them. Create multiple threats in an encounter from multiple sides so that they can't cover everything. Make situations they aren't designed to handle. If they rush, make traps they could never have seen. You could create enemies that mimic them and play then at their own game.

the DM has crit/precision/flanking immune monsters coming up. I'm looking forward to it, and I've already started preparing for it. (Free Weapon Finesse + Light Mace = i can do something other than piercing damage!)

Other nice thing to throw in on top of the improved group cohesion is the GM finally decides to let me know after five months of holding onto the darn thing that the longsword I got three sessions into the game is not just another cold iron longsword, but is a +2 weapon as well (chucks out the other five weapons I've been toting around because the best I could get my hands on were +1 weapons all the time). Combined with actually having redone my warblade levels to improve my choices of maneuvers, I'm contributing pretty well, so I guess the problem is mostly solved provided we dont end up with another group split again.

The Exchange

...

...

"Rocks fall, everyone dies."
.

Next?


Gohaken wrote:

...

...

"Rocks fall, everyone dies."
.

Next?

EMERGENCY FORCE SPHERE, B****.

...sorry, couldn't resist.


Snowblind wrote:
Gohaken wrote:

...

...

"Rocks fall, everyone dies."
.

Next?

EMERGENCY FORCE SPHERE, B****.

...sorry, couldn't resist.

"Unfortunately, the rocks simply pass through your spell, perhaps they have some sort of anti-magic field. You still die. Good game, everyone."


EldonG wrote:

Just thinking that 50 points of damage a round at somewhere around 11th-13th is only pretty good, myself. I've seen plenty of non min-maxed characters do so much more - and with AC in the low 30s.

I've seen non min-maxed lvl 5-6 characters put out the damage you're talking about.

Unfortunately my former GM had the mindset of what he expected damage to be per round from players.... I had a paladin who only power attacked during smites. I didn't even take my other feats because I wanted to show him I wasn't doing anything weird. Still got called a power gamer.

The Exchange

Snowblind wrote:
Gohaken wrote:

...

...

"Rocks fall, everyone dies."
.

Next?

EMERGENCY FORCE SPHERE, B****.

...sorry, couldn't resist.

;-P


Reading this thread makes my soul hurt. Roleplaying seems to be a lost and unwanted art.

To the two group players in the discussed group, if you can't get into combat before it ends all the problems you're having are due to your GM not adjusting the CR of your encounters appropriately.

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