Scrolls and more Scrolls


Advice


So I started playing a Wizard for the first time, and now that we've reached level 4 and gotten some loot, I was wondering what sort of spells I should start making into scrolls.


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Take a skim through the wizard spell list and find stuff that:
a)You don't usually plan to prepare
b)when needed, you likely need it fairly immediately (can't wait a day to prep new spells)
c)Works well even at an extremely low CL

Stuff like disguise self, mount, see invisibility and comprehend languages.

You can also buy some scrolls of more commonly useful spells for when you run low on spell slots and *really* need more firepower. Avoid stuff that only works well on a failed save or is highly CL dependent. Stone Call and Grease are good for this. Magic Missile, Color Spray and SMI are not.


Is there also an efficient quiver type wondrous item that works for scrolls?


Opuk0 wrote:
Is there also an efficient quiver type wondrous item that works for scrolls?

Specifically for scrolls? Not to my knowledge.

Handy Haversacks work fine, however.


Mmkay

So looking throught 1st and 2nd level spells, these look worthwhile for scrolls

shield
protection from evil
grease
mage armor
mount
obscuring mist
detect secret doors
identify
True strike
keep watch
floating disk
ant haul
expeditious retreat
touch of the sea
arcane lock
book ward
protection from arrows
see invisibility
darkness
blur
darkvision
knock
make whole
spider climb
whispering wind


What about the humble Sleep spell. Scribed at 1st level this still targets foes 110' away, puts them to sleep for 1 full minute and still affects 4 HD.

Also I submit to you that scrolls have the added benefit that they can be scribed at a higher level and you just have to pay more. You could spend 50 GP on a 4th level Burning Hands. Sure, it is expensive, far more per "charge" than a wand, but now you've got 1 extra 4d4 Burning Hands for the day.

I say any spell is good for a scroll if you've got the loot. The primary use for scrolls is to extend not only the diversity and utility of your spells but also to tuck a little extra utility under your arm.

Don't neglect your defensive/buff spells. Web, Enlarge Person, Alarm and Bull's Strength all jump to mind but I'm sure you can come up with more.

Finally, see if your GM is willing to use the optional Downtime rules from Ultimate Campaign. With those, given a little extra time you can generate Magic capital. Basically you spend 50 GP but this gives you the equivalent of 100 GP to use toward spell research or creating items among other things. Think about it:

Your wizard comes back to town with his loot but spends a couple days when first back using his Spellcraft skills and donating his scroll-making talents working at the local temple of Pharasma. Healing scrolls don't just scribe themselves after all. Rather than paying him in gold, the temple reduces the cost for numerous pages of fine velum and rare inks for his own private uses.

Retiring to his private chambers the wizard now uses the 2 Magic capital to scribe his own scrolls. He spends 100 GP of his own gold to scribe 200 GP worth of scrolls but he only pays half cost, so this is the equivalent of 16 level 1/CL 1 scrolls.

This is how a PC wizard in one of my campaigns started off at 1st level with 16 scrolls; 4 Sleep, 2 Mage Armor, 2 Shield, 2 Unseen Servant 4 Burning Hands and 2 Jump. This plus daily spells and cantrips got him through 9 encounters in a single day of adventuring.


Well, my DM is new and we're doing the Jade Regent AP so I don't want to give her more work than she already has

Alarm and such long duration spells I shied away from since I figured their usefulness is in their duration, especially for something like alarm that you'd probably use during rest.


Also, would Sleep be all that useful with an 11 DC?


Who's actually scribing, your PC wizard? If so the DC would go off whatever Int mod you have. If my elf wizard with Int 20 at level 1 scribes a scroll of Sleep, it's a DC 16 spell. If I have an applicable feat it'd go up more.

This is why I like to pour a flask of Alchemist's Fire all over my Burning Hands scrolls. This ensures that one person inside my AoE that fails the save bursts into flames. Also add some alchemical power components for +1/damage die (I think; otherwise it's just +1).

As for storing the scrolls, a scroll case can store up to 2 scrolls and you can scribe a couple spells/scroll. Besides that you've got handy haversacks, portable holes, bags of holding, and I'm sure dozens of other storage options. Personally I like just good old fashioned bandoliers.

One strap across my chest gives me 6 scroll tubes. 2 more tubes at each hip, one bandolier across my back and 4 more loose inside a satchel means I've got room to carry about 40 scrolls. If I need more room than that, I probably need to think about some kind of magic solution.


I'm the scribing Wizard, and I thought only staves could use your casting modifier and magic-use items always went off the lowest casting stat


I do not believe the intelligence of either the scriber or the reader has any impact on the scroll's DC. It is fixed to 10 + spell level + the minimum Int modifier necessary to cast the spell, the same as with wands. There is at least one exception to this: Cyphermage's insightful scroll special ability allows the caster to use her own Int modifier. Even then you need a prestige class, and it only works a couple of times per day.

One spell I like to carry around in a scroll form is Endure Elements. It lasts a day, does not benefit from CL, and sometimes the GM remembers that the fighter wearing a full plate should be boiling in the desert.


Magic items always use the minimum ability score necessary to cast the spell to set the DC. 1st level spells in items will always have a DC of 11, regardless of who made them.

The only exception (in the core rules) is with staves, which can use the wielders stats if they would result in a higher DC (or higher caster level).


Scroll wrote:


Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.

I've always taken this to mean that the spell happens exactly as if the scriber was casting it. Not the reader, but the scriber. So if found in a loot pile a sleep spell is DC 11; if the PC scribing the spell though has a normal DC 16 save when they cast the spell that's how it happens off THEIR scroll.

I must've been doing it wrong.


Quote:

Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers

Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.


I find the defense against weird effect X to make the best scrolls, followed by the informative spells.

So, water breathing, fly, knock, see invisibility are all awesome, as are identify and speak with dead.

Spells that do damage or have a DC? Those you cast yourself.

And spells you'll actually cast all the time? That can be a wand.


Is it better to get multiple communal protection from alignment scrolls or just single versions?


When buying magic items or finding random magic items as loot, the rules dictate that the caster level and ability scores relevant to that item are the lowest possible amount. However, this isn't the case when crafting your own magic items.

When crafting your own magic items, you may actively lower your caster level to the lowest possible (thus keeping the cost to craft the typical amount, as well as the level-dependent effects), or you can use up to your current caster level (which may increase the cost to craft, as well as the level-dependent effects). The DC when crafting is always based off your casting modifier.

Example: A wand of Burning Hands costs 25G in a shop (or 12G 5S to craft). This is because it's assumed that a creature with a caster level of 1 and a contributing modifier of 11 is crafting it. This scroll creates a Burning Hands spell that deals 1d4 fire damage with a DC of 11
A 5th level Wizard with an Int score of 20 decides to scribe a scroll of Burning Hands at a caster level of 1. This scroll costs 12G 5S to craft, as he’s still using caster level 1. This scroll creates a Burning Hands spell that deals 1d4 fire damage with a DC of 16
The same Wizard decides to scribe a scroll of Burning Hands at his highest caster level. This scroll costs 62G 5S to craft ([caster level 5 * level 1 spell * 25]/2 craft). This scroll creates a Burning Hands spell that deals 5d4 damage with a DC of 16

I’m 100% positive about the caster level to level-dependent effects rules above, and 90% sure about the DC rules. Unfortunately, my work break is over and I can’t look for the rules to quote them. Hope this helps!


Cuup wrote:

When buying magic items or finding random magic items as loot, the rules dictate that the caster level and ability scores relevant to that item are the lowest possible amount. However, this isn't the case when crafting your own magic items.

When crafting your own magic items, you may actively lower your caster level to the lowest possible (thus keeping the cost to craft the typical amount, as well as the level-dependent effects), or you can use up to your current caster level (which may increase the cost to craft, as well as the level-dependent effects). The DC when crafting is always based off your casting modifier.

Example: A wand of Burning Hands costs 25G in a shop (or 12G 5S to craft). This is because it's assumed that a creature with a caster level of 1 and a contributing modifier of 11 is crafting it. This scroll creates a Burning Hands spell that deals 1d4 fire damage with a DC of 11
A 5th level Wizard with an Int score of 20 decides to scribe a scroll of Burning Hands at a caster level of 1. This scroll costs 12G 5S to craft, as he’s still using caster level 1. This scroll creates a Burning Hands spell that deals 1d4 fire damage with a DC of 16
The same Wizard decides to scribe a scroll of Burning Hands at his highest caster level. This scroll costs 62G 5S to craft ([caster level 5 * level 1 spell * 25]/2 craft). This scroll creates a Burning Hands spell that deals 5d4 damage with a DC of 16

I’m 100% positive about the caster level to level-dependent effects rules above, and 90% sure about the DC rules. Unfortunately, my work break is over and I can’t look for the rules to quote them. Hope this helps!

Whenever you get the chance I'd really appreciate getting the rule


Cuup wrote:

When buying magic items or finding random magic items as loot, the rules dictate that the caster level and ability scores relevant to that item are the lowest possible amount. However, this isn't the case when crafting your own magic items.

When crafting your own magic items, you may actively lower your caster level to the lowest possible (thus keeping the cost to craft the typical amount, as well as the level-dependent effects), or you can use up to your current caster level (which may increase the cost to craft, as well as the level-dependent effects). The DC when crafting is always based off your casting modifier.

Example: A wand of Burning Hands costs 25G in a shop (or 12G 5S to craft). This is because it's assumed that a creature with a caster level of 1 and a contributing modifier of 11 is crafting it. This scroll creates a Burning Hands spell that deals 1d4 fire damage with a DC of 11
A 5th level Wizard with an Int score of 20 decides to scribe a scroll of Burning Hands at a caster level of 1. This scroll costs 12G 5S to craft, as he’s still using caster level 1. This scroll creates a Burning Hands spell that deals 1d4 fire damage with a DC of 16
The same Wizard decides to scribe a scroll of Burning Hands at his highest caster level. This scroll costs 62G 5S to craft ([caster level 5 * level 1 spell * 25]/2 craft). This scroll creates a Burning Hands spell that deals 5d4 damage with a DC of 16

I’m 100% positive about the caster level to level-dependent effects rules above, and 90% sure about the DC rules. Unfortunately, my work break is over and I can’t look for the rules to quote them. Hope this helps!

All of this is what I thought but upthread Jeraa suggested otherwise. Anyway for my homegame this is how I'm still ruling it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Hoover wrote:

Who's actually scribing, your PC wizard? If so the DC would go off whatever Int mod you have. If my elf wizard with Int 20 at level 1 scribes a scroll of Sleep, it's a DC 16 spell. If I have an applicable feat it'd go up more.

That's not how scrolls work. They, along with wands function at the minimum Int for the spell of that level. So that makes Fireball a DC14 when fired from a scroll or wand.

That's why staves are special, their DC's are based on the user's casting stat.


Scrolls wrote:
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
Staves wrote:
Using Staves: Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spells, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than those from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependent on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are also harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming spell resistance.

Bold for my emphasis.

So I was mistaken about the ability score part from yesterday. I assumed staves using the caster's ability score for DC's was better because it kept the Staff's DC up as the caster's ability score went up, as opposed to being set to whatever the ability score was upon crafting. As for Caster Levels and crafting, this was all I could find to support my first statement. The implication I take away is that you can use up to your full caster level (which will improve level-dependent effects), but it will cause the price of the magic item to increase as well.


Well ok, save-or-suck spells are worthless on a scroll. Still, any spell that doesn't allow a foe a save is still viable on a scroll. Got a familiar you feel confident to deliver Touch spells? Pick one like Shocking Grasp that doesn't grant a save and just spend more on the scroll. Ray spells are also decent attack scrolls.

For the most part though I say stick to any utility, buff or defensive spell for scrolls. Also don't be afraid to include cantrips in that list. "But Mark, that's LUDICROUS! I can spam 4 cantrips all day!" Yes, but you ONLY get 4. There's about 6 that can actually be consistently useful. I like to spam Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Resistance and Touch of Fatigue on my guys but then carry around scrolls of Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead and Read Magic just in case. If I know about undead ahead of time, I just drop Touch of Fatigue and spam Disrupt Undead instead.


Cantrip scrolls would be like 6 gold a piece right?


Opuk0 wrote:
Cantrip scrolls would be like 6 gold a piece right?

The cost to make them yourself (Assuming caster level 1) is 6gp, 2sp, and 5cp.


In terms of cash, is it more cost-effective to get single protection from alignment scrolls or get the communal ones?


Communal scrolls are 6x the cost. Are you protecting 6 people with the communal spell?


_Ozy_ wrote:
Communal scrolls are 6x the cost. Are you protecting 6 people with the communal spell?

Higher cost, but you protect multiple people with a single standard action, as opposed to using several rounds to protect everyone.

So which is more important: Gold, or your actions in combat? If you are just concerned about gold, individual scrolls are cheaper.


Non-communal scrolls are cheaper. Assuming four fearsome heroes, you either pay 100 gp for four CL 1 protection from law scrolls with a duration of one minute each, or you pay 200 gp for a single CL 4 communal protection from law scroll, that also gives them one minute of protection each.

Assuming six stalwart heroes, you pay 150 gp for six scrolls, or you pay 300 gp for a single communal scroll.

Regular scrolls take time to use, of course. The characters who got protected first will also have it go out first. Communal spell slaps the effect on everybody at the same time, but only if they happen to be within touching range. This is not always an option in narrow tunnels.

I'd pick non-communal scrolls.


Mmkay, and super no on DC based spells?


Scrolls are great for utility spells:
protection from alignment
Sending
water breathing
treasure stitching
lesser restoration
delay poison
Raise Dead

things like this. Combat spells almost always need either CL or save DC - neither is good for scrolls.


Just saying, if magic items like scrolls and wands had DCs based on the caster that made them rather than the base modifier needed to cast the spell, then things like the Staff-like Wand arcane discovery, the Wand Mastery magus arcana, and the Improved Scroll Casting ability of the Scrollmaster wizard archetype would all be useless.


Probably built that way to make tracking loot easier. Hard enough to track consumables; but having to track not only the Spell Name, but the CL and DC?!

So much easier to be able to assume that barring any expensive material components all scrolls of a given level cost the same.

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