Albatoonoe |
Actually, looking at the tumor familiar, I'm not sure it's actually a familiar as the class option. I'm not saying it necessarily doesn't, but it could be like the Shaman's spirit animal that is not a familiar even though it functions like one. Improved familiar and figment may not be valid choices for it.
The wording is kinda fuzzy, though. I am not speaking with any kind of authority here.
felinoel |
Actually, looking at the tumor familiar, I'm not sure it's actually a familiar as the class option. I'm not saying it necessarily doesn't, but it could be like the Shaman's spirit animal that is not a familiar even though it functions like one. Improved familiar and figment may not be valid choices for it.
The wording is kinda fuzzy, though. I am not speaking with any kind of authority here.
I dunno... it is treated as a familiar and called a familiar, the tumor addon is just how the familiar is obtained for fluff purposes...
I don't know: how did you?
(Please describe your mechanical process; with links. I'm not following. Thanks!)
Ummm...? I took the tumor familiar Discovery, built it as a figment, then later took the Improved Familiar feat.
Improved Familiar isn't compatible with the Figment archetype in any case.
But other than that... best not to think about it too hard.
It isn't? Where do you see that?
Gisher |
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There are two issues here.
1.) Alchemist's are not spellcasters but the Improved Familiar table states that selecting a Lyrakien Azata requires an Arcane Spellcaster level of 7.
2.) The Figment archetype replaces "speak with animals of its kind" to get Manifest Dreams, but the Improved Familiar Feat specifically state that improved familiars don't get "speak with animals of its kind." You can't select an archetype that replaces an ability that you don't have.
Byakko |
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Except:
"The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level."
"The tumor has ... familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level ..."
While the rules are admittedly a bit shaky, the above quotes may allow an alchemist to obtain an Improved Familiar, given a reasonable interpretation.
Gisher |
Except:
"The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level."
That line is part of a paragraph specifically discussing the use of elixirs and spell-trigger items.
Although the alchemist doesn't actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
I don't see any reason to interpret that last sentence as extending beyond those uses, but I could be wrong. Also I don't think that caster level and spellcaster level are necessarily the same. You will note that the first sentence in the quote above makes it clear that Alchemists don't cast spells. Of course, the Improved Familiar feat was written when only spellcasters could get familiars, so maybe spellcaster and caster were meant to be interchangeable terms.
"The tumor has ... familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level ..."
I don't think that this makes any difference since it is the character's spellcaster level that matters, not the "level" of the familiar.
While the rules are admittedly a bit shaky, the above quotes may allow an alchemist to obtain an Improved Familiar, given a reasonable interpretation.
The rules on this really are horribly confusing. I believe that the rules as stated work the way that I argued above, but I could be wrong. And I'm not at all sure that they were intended to work that way. On the other hand, letting the Improved Familiar feat work does lead to strange questions. For example, is the Lyrakien Azata actually a Lyrakien Azata, or is it a tumor shaped like a Lyrakien Azata just as the original familiar was a tumor shaped like a bat or whatever? If it is a tumor, can it still merge with you and gain fast healing? How would that work if you chose an Improved Familiar which had a size of small rather than the sizes allowed by the Tumor Familiar discovery? Maybe the authors never worried about these issues because, in their opinion, it was obvious that Alchemists couldn't use the Improved Familiar feat.
Of course the Aberrant Tumor feat makes things more complicated since actual spellcasters can use it to get a tumor familiar, but for purposes of the familiar, they count their levels as levels in Alchemist which don't count as spellcasters. It makes my head hurt. The Homunculist Alchemist is even more confusing, especially when you read about the author's unedited version of the archetype. I had really hoped that the Familiar Folio would resolve a lot of confusion, but it actually added to it.
But I feel a lot more confident about our interpretation of the rules regarding the Figment archetype.
Diego Rossi |
Except:
"The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level."
"The tumor has ... familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level ..."
While the rules are admittedly a bit shaky, the above quotes may allow an alchemist to obtain an Improved Familiar, given a reasonable interpretation.
An alchemist isn't an arcane caster.
Table: Updated Improved Familiar List Familiar Alignment Arcane Spellcaster Level
Lyrakien azata Chaotic good 7th
So unless you get a way to be a 7th level Arcane spellcaster you can't get a Lyrakien azata.
and the obligatory FAQ quote:
Alchemist: Is an alchemist a spellcaster for the purpose of crafting magic items other than potions?
As written, no, alchemists are not spellcasters, and therefore can't select feats such as Craft Wondrous Item.
The design team is aware that this creates some thematic problems with the idea of an alchemist creating golems and so on, and plan to examine this in the future.
posted March 2013
felinoel |
We do not need to use the Alchemist as the reference for the Tumor Familiar. "Aberrant Tumor" can be used to gain a Tumor Familiar as well.
If we now add one Level of Witch with the Animals Patron we are back on the Main Question here.
True, I mean my familiar is apparently not supposed to work but others' might?
Dave Justus |
Tumor familiar specifically says that it is based on the alchemist caster level. It seems pretty obvious to me that that applies to Improved Familiars as well, with the alchemist level being the caster level in question, just as Tumor Familiar says.
So I don't see any problem with a tumor familiar being an improved familiar, although it would probably have to be tiny or diminuative, just like any other tumor familiar.
Emmit Svenson |
We do not need to use the Alchemist as the reference for the Tumor Familiar. "Aberrant Tumor" can be used to gain a Tumor Familiar as well. If we now add one Level of Witch with the Animals Patron we are back on the Main Question here.
Still can't make a Improved Familiar with the Figment archetype, however.
felinoel |
Tumor familiar specifically says that it is based on the alchemist caster level. It seems pretty obvious to me that that applies to Improved Familiars as well, with the alchemist level being the caster level in question, just as Tumor Familiar says.
So I don't see any problem with a tumor familiar being an improved familiar, although it would probably have to be tiny or diminuative, just like any other tumor familiar.
Thankfully the Lyrakien is tiny, ha.
Kryzbyn |
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Technically, it's not a lyrakien. It's a lump of your flesh that looks like a lyrakien with a lyrakien's abilities. I don't think it would have the same motivations/goals a true lyrakien has.
I'd think right off the bat people would be able to tell it's not a real lyrakien.
But that could be too strict of an interpretation.
Hudrax |
Hudrax wrote:We do not need to use the Alchemist as the reference for the Tumor Familiar. "Aberrant Tumor" can be used to gain a Tumor Familiar as well. If we now add one Level of Witch with the Animals Patron we are back on the Main Question here.Still can't make a Improved Familiar with the Figment archetype, however.
Ok why that? The Improved Familiar has every Familiar Trait its need thanks to the Witch with the Animals Patron. Did i miss something?
Diego Rossi |
Tumor familiar specifically says that it is based on the alchemist caster level. It seems pretty obvious to me that that applies to Improved Familiars as well, with the alchemist level being the caster level in question, just as Tumor Familiar says.
So I don't see any problem with a tumor familiar being an improved familiar, although it would probably have to be tiny or diminuative, just like any other tumor familiar.
Still missing the arcane part of "Arcane Spellcaster Level". Alchemists are neither arcane nor divine.
Rub-Eta |
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To chip in on the entire "Arcane Spellcaster Level". I'm pretty sure it just to restrict a cleric with one level in wizard from qualifying.
However, alchemists doesn't have a general purpose caster level, as they are not spell casters (see FAQ below). An alchemist uses his alchemist level as the caster level of his extracts (just like how a potion has a caster level, the extract has one equal to the alchemist's level) and to determin any of the extract's effect based on caster level. He also have one for the purpose of creating potions, granted by his Brew Potion class feat.
The Alchemist doesn't have a caster level in regards to qualifying for feats, as noted by this FAQ. This is RAW.
HOWEVER: When you read certain Discoveries, such as Tumor Familiar and Wings, there's a reference to the alchemist's caster level. This would mean, by RAW, that the Wings Discovery does nothing, since the alchemist doesn't have a caster level for the purpose of discoveries. But that's just silly and I will not agree to that, not even if the entire Paizo staff and every Pathfinder player signed it.
Bottomline: There's nothing clear in this. I would allow it as a DM.
However, as also noted above, an Improved Familar doesn't gain 'speak with animals of its kind', meaning that can't trade it away for the archtype.
felinoel |
Dave Justus wrote:Still missing the arcane part of "Arcane Spellcaster Level". Alchemists are neither arcane nor divine.Tumor familiar specifically says that it is based on the alchemist caster level. It seems pretty obvious to me that that applies to Improved Familiars as well, with the alchemist level being the caster level in question, just as Tumor Familiar says.
So I don't see any problem with a tumor familiar being an improved familiar, although it would probably have to be tiny or diminuative, just like any other tumor familiar.
Tumor familiar specifically says that it is based on the alchemist caster level. It seems pretty obvious to me that that applies to Improved Familiars as well, with the alchemist level being the caster level in question, just as Tumor Familiar says.
So I don't see any problem with a tumor familiar being an improved familiar, although it would probably have to be tiny or diminuative, just like any other tumor familiar.
QuidEst |
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Even if you take the overly restrictive interpretation of Tumor Familiar, you can do this with an Aberrant bloodline Sorc or Bloodrager and the Aberrant Tumor feat.
Personally, I think that hedgehog is the best Figment Tumor Familiar choice in terms of flavor. Make it a weird semi-real growth at the base of the neck. The +2 to will saves is a great fit for a dream parasite. As the familiar becomes more powerful, have it take over!
Lyrakien is a little weirder there. Being a creature associated with music and art, maybe re fluff the tumor part and make it an inner muse or something?
felinoel |
Even if you take the overly restrictive interpretation of Tumor Familiar, you can do this with an Aberrant bloodline Sorc or Bloodrager and the Aberrant Tumor feat.
Personally, I think that hedgehog is the best Figment Tumor Familiar choice in terms of flavor. Make it a weird semi-real growth at the base of the neck. The +2 to will saves is a great fit for a dream parasite. As the familiar becomes more powerful, have it take over!
lol wow
Lyrakien is a little weirder there. Being a creature associated with music and art, maybe re fluff the tumor part and make it an inner muse or something?
I needed something to play a Lyre of Building and with its bonuses to perform as well as the eidelon evolution for additional bonuses for perform and the fact that eidelons don't sleep PLUS the whole listening to a Lyrekein removes tiredness?!?!?!? is perfect for continuous playing nonstop for like a week or more.
QuidEst |
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So... You took an extra planar being of beauty, grace, and freedom, and bound it in a body made of a fleshy tumor growing from you, in order to force it to play a music for hours withou rest, not for any appreciation of the music, but to spur on magical forces to build things for you? I don't think you qualify for a Lyrakien's alignment restrictions...
felinoel |
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So... You took an extra planar being of beauty, grace, and freedom, and bound it in a body made of a fleshy tumor growing from you, in order to force it to play a music for hours withou rest, not for any appreciation of the music, but to spur on magical forces to build things for you? I don't think you qualify for a Lyrakien's alignment restrictions...
To be fair, it is only a figment of my imagination.
QuidEst |
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QuidEst wrote:So... You took an extra planar being of beauty, grace, and freedom, and bound it in a body made of a fleshy tumor growing from you, in order to force it to play a music for hours withou rest, not for any appreciation of the music, but to spur on magical forces to build things for you? I don't think you qualify for a Lyrakien's alignment restrictions...To be fair, it is only a figment of my imagination.
Oh, right. Forgot that bit! Good to go, I guess?
felinoel |
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felinoel wrote:Oh, right. Forgot that bit! Good to go, I guess?QuidEst wrote:So... You took an extra planar being of beauty, grace, and freedom, and bound it in a body made of a fleshy tumor growing from you, in order to force it to play a music for hours withou rest, not for any appreciation of the music, but to spur on magical forces to build things for you? I don't think you qualify for a Lyrakien's alignment restrictions...To be fair, it is only a figment of my imagination.
This line of discussion has me rolling on the floor due to the humor.
Byakko |
Byakko wrote:No Offense but in his threat i read your Interpretation but is there somthing more official?The Animal Patron doesn't allow you to combine one of these archetypes with Improved Familiar anyway.
(see one of many other threads on the subject such as this one.)
Did you read further where Mark Seifter (a paizo Designer) stated:
As far as I can tell, that's correct, Byakko (and also the case that since both abilities modify SwAoiC, they likely wouldn't be takeable together anyway). It's also why Animal Patron witch wouldn't do it, it would seem (well that and, part and parcel of why archetypes don't allow stacking if they both modify the same feature, ambiguous order of operations).
?
Hudrax |
Hudrax wrote:Byakko wrote:No Offense but in his threat i read your Interpretation but is there somthing more official?The Animal Patron doesn't allow you to combine one of these archetypes with Improved Familiar anyway.
(see one of many other threads on the subject such as this one.)Did you read further where Mark Seifter (a paizo Designer) stated:
Quote:As far as I can tell, that's correct, Byakko (and also the case that since both abilities modify SwAoiC, they likely wouldn't be takeable together anyway). It's also why Animal Patron witch wouldn't do it, it would seem (well that and, part and parcel of why archetypes don't allow stacking if they both modify the same feature, ambiguous order of operations).?
Ah ok in this case sorry ;)
So the only thing possible to discust is the Point if Improved Familiar counts as a Template.Azten |