So last night we had a pvp arena to test out our characters before we do the actual campaign and oddly enough -alot- of rules questions came up, hopefully someone here could help us out on if there are any answers to these. In no particular order the issues that came up where:
1. Can you Charge while jumping(Jumping to a Flying Creature or Over Rivers of Lava)
2. Can you Charge While Flying and can you Pummeling Charge While Flying
3. this one is a little complicated so ill explain the situation. A player was on a Huge Roc with a Howdah and was 15ft in the air, another playing was a ranger on a large category Wolf By using lunge he struck upwards 15ft and tried to strike the player on the top of the Huge Roc. So two question here, first, does being on a mount mean you are technically 5ft off the ground and thus be able to hit 15ft up with reach. and Second, with only 15ft reach could you hit the person on top of the Roc?
4. Does tremorsense negate the misschance from invisibility
5. Is a snake immune to the Throw Rider Trick since it is immune to trips
6. Does the Throw Rider Trick break invisibility?
7. Can you Tumble during a charge,withdraw,run?
Any help on these would be greatly appreciated. If you could link something from one of the srds or a page in one of the books about it(we own most of them) that would be super awesome too! Thank you all in advance^-^
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1. No, because you do not have a clear straight line path.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.
2. Yes, you can charge while you are flying.
3. If you are on a mount you occupy the entire mount's space. You are not above the mount.
For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat.
So, since you occupy the entire space you can be struck from below if they can strike your mount. The Ranger can attack the rider of the Roc provided he can attack the Roc.
4. No, pinpointing only tells you where a creature is, it does not allow you to ignore miss chance.
Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is
sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.
5. I think you have Throw Rider backwards. A snake would be a mount, it is not a rider. The mount (the snake) throws the rider (presumably a humanoid). The humanoid is not immune to trip.
6. Yes, it is an attack roll.
7. Charge/Run: Only if you do not reduce your speed. If your movement is hampered you cannot charge or Run.
Withdraw does not have a restriction against hampered movement.
Note: I assume you are referencing Acrobatics to prevent an AoO as there is no 'tumble' skill in Pathfinder.
1. No, since difficult terrain (even if it could be jumped over) explicitly prevents a charge. Combat rules, description of charge.
2. Yes. (UC: the feat Death from Above depends on it!)
3a. You are sitting on your mount, and therefore occupying its squares. If you have a reach weapon, you can hit 15' overhead with Lunge; with a normal weapon, you only reach 10'.
3b. Per description of howdah, the ranger can't even target the Roc-rider, because a howdah gives cover vs. attacks from below.
4. No. Tremorsense only allows definite knowledge of the invisible creature's location; it doesn't help against the miss chance.
5. Snakes can't ride mounts; and if they could, they would automatically fail their CMD against Throw Rider due to having no way to defend against the throw. They wouldn't be knocked down as with a trip (since they're immune to trip,) but would certainly be off the horse.
6. Yes, since like all combat manoeuvres it's considered an attack.
7. It's called Acrobatics now, but yes. Note that you can't use Acrobatics to Charge through difficult terrain, but you can use it (with the usual speed or DC malus) otherwise.
Nicos, the only comment I was able to find is one from James Jacobs.
But, I was unaware of the 3.5 FAQ on the topic and, unless there is a change in the rules in PF I tend to view things as 3.5 did. So...maybe?
Damiancrr, I am going to amend my #1 answer with a "maybe" since the rules seem to say no but 3.5 and James Jacobs (admittedly not the rules guy but the only Dev that has commented to date on it) have said yes.
Sandslice, cover is not total cover. The Ranger can target people in the howdah, but those people have +4 AC due to cover.
1. No, because you do not have a clear straight line path.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.
So when flying over difficult terrain, you are slowed?
Does not work that way.
If you jump past difficult terrain, it is no longer difficult terrain preventing the charge. Ditto obstacles. Occupied or blocked squares, however, remain occupied or blocked and prevent a charge.
Jumping over a river of lava, an open pit, and the like will not slow you down, and will not prevent a charge. Jumping up in the air will not slow you down either.
/cevah
1. No, because you do not have a clear straight line path.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.So when flying over difficult terrain, you are slowed?
Does not work that way.
If you jump past difficult terrain, it is no longer difficult terrain preventing the charge. Ditto obstacles. Occupied or blocked squares, however, remain occupied or blocked and prevent a charge.
Jumping over a river of lava, an open pit, and the like will not slow you down, and will not prevent a charge. Jumping up in the air will not slow you down either.
/cevah
Cevah, it is so nice when you read an entire thread (especially one this short) before responding to an early post.
Perhaps you should read the post immediately preceding your own where I changed my stance to a maybe.
1. Can you Charge while jumping(Jumping to a Flying Creature or Over Rivers of Lava)
You can jump during a charge, absolutely, so jumping over the rivers of lava works. However, you can't jump charge a flying creature unless there's somewhere for you stand next to the attacker.
2. Can you Charge While Flying and can you Pummeling Charge While Flying
Yes to both.
3. this one is a little complicated so ill explain the situation. A player was on a Huge Roc with a Howdah and was 15ft in the air, another playing was a ranger on a large category Wolf By using lunge he struck upwards 15ft and tried to strike the player on the top of the Huge Roc. So two question here, first, does being on a mount mean you are technically 5ft off the ground and thus be able to hit 15ft up with reach. and Second, with only 15ft reach could you hit the person on top of the Roc?
Technically, you occupy the exact same space as your mount, so the Ranger is occupying the entire 10' cube the wolf is in. That means he can attack something 15' off the ground without lunge, since he attacks 5' and he's 10' up. He could hit 20' with Lunge. [Edit: Unless by 15' up, you mean there's 15' of space between the Roc and the ground, which is actually 20' up. Then he'd need Lunge.]
Likewise, the people in a Howdah count as mounted for attacks, so, they also occupy the entire 15' cube the Roc occupies. That means the Ranger can attack the Roc rider, but the rider would have cover.
4. Does tremorsense negate the misschance from invisibility
No, you can pinpoint the square the invisibility guy is in, but you still suffer a 50% miss chance.
5. Is a snake immune to the Throw Rider Trick since it is immune to trips
I don't think you're understanding the Throw Rider Trick. Either that or you have somehow constructed a situation where a Snake is trying to ride on an unfriendly mount...I don't understand how this could possibly come up.
6. Does the Throw Rider Trick break invisibility?
The mount's invisibility? Yes, it is a combat maneuver check, which counts as an attack.
7. Can you Tumble during a charge,withdraw,run?
Yes. Why would you question this?
I remember that the last post about jumping and charging it was clear that it was allowed but I'm just too lazy to look for it...I would like the forum to have a tracking system for the rules thread you want to have at hand.
The closest thing we have to tracking a post are favoriting a post or "listing" it. Listing helps because sometimes an argument keeps coming up, and it can be easier to find the link to an FAQ or dev commentary that way assuming there is no specific rules quote.
According to the rules you can't jump to complete a charge. Now it may not be RAI, and I think jumping low obstacles that do not take you into another square should be possible, but as of now it is not possible. I don't know if this has been FAQ'd, but it has come up several times.
If you cannot jump during a Charge, doesn't the Janni Rush feat cease to function?
This is correct since the feat does not say "unlike normally you may jump during a charge" so either the feat got past editing or charging in the book is not written correctly.
I don't think it's game breaking so I would allow the feat to work like it was intended to work.
I also notice that even though several remarks have been FAQ'd in relation to this they were not worded in a way that ask a specific question. I will start an FAQ and put a link to it here once I am done.
edit: 3.5 allowed a jump as long as you did not enter go up one square. Basically high obstacles prevented charges.
Sorry for the late link. <----Jumping and charging FAQ
Hello everybody! I am the source of question #5. I was playing a Druid with a Constrictor Snake Companion that specialized in grappling. While Wildshaped into an Air Elemental, I had reduced the size of my snake to medium (reduce animal). I then carried it, while flying, up and over Damiancrr's Roc. I dropped it as a free action right in the middle of the Roc (that I am learning for the first time, today, was aparrently fashions with a large sized Howdah) as soon as the snake made contact with the roc (or Howdah platform) I dismissed the Reduce Animal spell as a my standard action, and the Snake Lashed out at mr Damiancrr's character as its attack - hoping to grab/grapple him and prevent him from casting any spells on the rest of the group below.
I thought it a rather great solution to the pesky untouchable Bard/Oracle who was blowing up dust and debris everywhere with his hovering Roc.
So if I understand correctly:
1) you flew up
2) you dropped the snake into a Howdah on a Roc
3) you dismissed the reduce animal spell (not really relevant since the Howdah can continue to carry your large snake)
#2 is pretty well outside of the rules.
However, the best guidance is the Dropping an Object rules (CRB p443) which would have required a ranged touch attack roll (not a free action).
I would have also run it that the snake could be thrown via a CMB check. It doesn't result in the snake being prone when it hits the ground but it still can remove the snake.
Out of curiosity, why was the Bard/Oracle untouchable?
I had reduced the snake so I could carry it while flying. I dropped it while it was small, because dropping a 5'x5' thing on a 15'x15' target is easier that a 10'x10' thing on the same target. I dismissed the spell so it got higher CMB to grapple than if it were small.
If #2 is out of the rules, how do winged creatures grab enemies, fly up in the air and drop them? As far as dropping something on a mount (or even better a wooden platform that happens to be strapped to the mount) - how is that not just within the realm of a ride check or acrobatics? The snake has 3 intelligence - it was able to take improved grapple and greater grapple - it can figure out how to hold on to something that doesn't want it there.
And I did not throw the snake I dropped it.
As to what made him untouchable
9 channel heals all for he and his Roc
4 immediate action emergency force spheres.
Misfortune
Liberating command
Chain of perdition
Snap leafs (also activated by his unintelligent roc somehow)
37 uses of up to 9d8+72 Weird Words (SU) abilities.
Buffed his and his Roc's AC to the ~39 level.
Had a ring of revelation Friends with Animals that we all helped buy him for our own animals benefits (his +8 CHA to saves) but which now made his roc able to save against nearly anything we threw at him.
And triomegazero got at least one of the other reasons
Oddman80,
I think you misunderstood what I was saying was out of the rules.
How winged creatures grab enemies, fly and drop them is that they are not trying to target a creature/spot on the ground.
To do it:
1) Grapple check to grapple target creature.
2) target creature has chance to escape or reverse the grapple or whatever.
3) next turn, the grappling creature makes a grapple check to maintain the grapple and, as it's option, chooses the move action (instead of damage or whatever).
4) Now the grappling creature can release the grapple as a free action.
The sequence above has nothing to do with that you are trying to do.
You can certainly carry your snake.
You can certainly drop your snake.
But there are no rules covering you dropping your snake into a howdah. The closest rules are the Dropping an Object rules and that requires that you make a ranged touch attack.
There are also no provisions in the rules for doing a grapple check while falling.
So, you have to land the snake in the howdah and thus we are back to doing a ranged touch attack to drop it where you want it to hit.
As for his abilities, without knowing yours I don't have anything to offer, but as TOZ said, it seems like his action economy is an issue. You guys should be able to wear him down.
Regarding his abilities:
Channeling to heal is a way to prolong a battle, not really save you.
Emergency Force Sphere is only partially effective for a flying creature, it creates a dome, not a sphere as the name states and it is immobile.
Misfortune is annoying, but ultimately it means that he is probably not attacking
Chain of Perdition isn't hurting you.
How is his Roc using Snap Leaf?
Weird Words is nasty, but it precludes him healing himself and make sure you use the FAQ that rewrote it.
Friend to the Animals is defintely a nasty bump to the Roc's saves. But it should not be insurmountable.
Was this a fellow PC or a BBEG?
Yeah - except he was in the Howdah aparently
We even called him on the dome and that an attack from below would be unaffected
Eventually my teammate teleported into the force sphere and that was the beginning of the end for him - the entire battle took about 4 hours... It was crazy.
It doesn't matter if he is in the Howdah or not he leaves himself open on one side still.
And with EFS being immobile, good luck with that while trying to fly.
37 uses of up to 9d8+72 Weird Words (SU) abilities.
Just wanted to point out that Weird Words has now been FAQed, so that's not how it works anymore.
Also, if this was in relation to your Snake in the Howdah, the throw rider trick would either not apply at all, because, Howdah, or it would apply to everyone in the Howdah. There's no way for him to have thrown the Snake and not the other guy.
Wish you had been there Friday night mplindustries
My snake style could have deflected half the damage before the save to cut it in half. Had I known that, I too would have probably made it to the end of the battle.
Fortunately- he is on our side moving forward.
Cevah, it is so nice when you read an entire thread (especially one this short) before responding to an early post.
Perhaps you should read the post immediately preceding your own where I changed my stance to a maybe.
I did read the entire thread.
What I wrote was an example showing why thinking you cannot bypass an obstacle was wrong. Since "No" is wrong, the answer must be "Yes", not "Maybe".
I think I would have written my post even without your original post. I probably would have quoted Sandslice instead.
/cevah
Cevah, then why didn't you respond to someone else's "No" or my revised "Maybe"?
In any case, it is 'Maybe' even in the 3.5 FAQ since what you are trying to bypass is situational.
A "yes" would mean that jumping could bypass any obstacle/difficult terrain which jumping cannot.
Cevah, then why didn't you respond to someone else's "No" or my revised "Maybe"?
Convenience as the topmost saying a flat out no? I don't recall.
In any case, it is 'Maybe' even in the 3.5 FAQ since what you are trying to bypass is situational.
A "yes" would mean that jumping could bypass any obstacle/difficult terrain which jumping cannot.
What obstacle/difficult terrain cannot be jumped? Assuming within jumping distance. My character can jump 74' max, so a paltry 30' wide chasm is not slowing him down.
/cevah
You are thinking length rather than height. Difficult terrain can have a height too. For example, terrain made difficult by bushes, some bushes are taller than a man.
Again, "Yes" means a flat yes which doesn't even bother to check conditions where "maybe" is means "yes, depending on if....".
Even if you can jump a 20foot difficult terrain feature or obstacle you are no longer traveling in a straight line.
You are thinking length rather than height. Difficult terrain can have a height too. For example, terrain made difficult by bushes, some bushes are taller than a man.
Again, "Yes" means a flat yes which doesn't even bother to check conditions where "maybe" is means "yes, depending on if....".
Even if you can jump a 20foot difficult terrain feature or obstacle you are no longer traveling in a straight line.
My understand of flight mechanics is that you ignore the 3D and only use XY (or XZ or YZ if more appropriate). Why should this not also apply to ground level?
I do realize there is 3D difficult terrain, but it is rare. One such is Black Tentacles. As to the horizontal jump causing you to go too high if you jump too far, well, I can see it going either way. Depends on how "realistic" the environment is being played. As a GM, I would not use it unless the jumped area extended vertically thru the square. Mud, lava, water, and such do not.
As to bushes taller than a man, I would not describe them as difficult terrain, but as blocking terrain. This would then cause the question of jumping to become moot as the path is blocked, not hindered.
So... what hindering terrain cannot be jumped?
/cevah
A 75' wide chasm?
I *did* say "Assuming within jumping distance". :-)
My biggest bubaboo is that my Move is 40', so what is my limit? 40' move action, 80' double move, or 160' run?
/cevah