Half dragons and PCs


Advice


so what I'd like to play is a Half human Half silver Dragon paladin but I've asked some people's opinions and have had a mixed reaction so for balance I thought I'd ask here, is there any problems with playing a half dragon as level 1 when everyone else is level 3 in the party?

[also is there a god of dragons or of order and such like DND's Bahamut?]

Sovereign Court

do we still have half-dragons in pathfinder? i haven't seen this kind of silliness type character in years now... (since 3.5...)


yeah half dragons are detailed as a template in Bestiary on page 170


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Ehh... Half dragon sorta plays to a paladins strengths as it were. I mean your biggest risk is having less hp than everyone else, but your giant con mod boost probably would make your hp close to that of a 2nd level character so there's that at least

But the big question is does the template do enough to make you the equivalent of a third level character.

It gives flight, but that's accessible by level 5, so you only have 2 levels of superiority. You get some immunities. Immune to colds the big one in this group, immune to paralysis is just freedom of movement away so everyone will have it at a certain point. You get some senses too, always nice to have.

Your breath weapon is capped at 1d6 so is basically a nonfactor.

Some natural attacks, meh. And finally a pretty big stat buff and some natural armor. Honestly the natural armor and stats are the big ones.

So a couple early immunitites and a movement rate and some sizable ac and stat buffs compared to 2d10 hd, faster access to divine bond, faster access to spells, and several other features and you never getting the capstone.

Yeah I'd say that's probably fair. It looks worse than it is, but it's not like you're a vampire or something.

Also there's two dragon gods, Dahak is the evil one, and the good one is uh... I forget, but check archives of nethys, he's in there somewhere under dieties.


Lets see
Str +8
Con +6
Int +2
Cha +2
Natural armour +4
Darkvision 60
Immunity sleep paralysis, Cold
2 1d4 claws. 1d6 bite
Flight 60 feet
1/day breathweapon for d6 per level

So compared to a 3rd level paladin of the same base race
you will have an attack score greater by 2 and do +4 damage
You will have +3 hp per dice but 2 less dice so 8 hp less
Your AC is 4 better than the Paladin will ever get
Natural attacks give you 3 attacks in a full attack probably superior even to a 2 handed weapon in damage

Fly is not normally available until 5th level and then for a few minutes a day which is in iself a huge advantage.

I would say no.
Even in 3.5 the rules for applying templates did not work. There are no such rules in pathfinder.
I suggest if you and your gm both like the concept designing a custom race using the ARG and calling it silver dragon blooded and then playing the character


I recently played a Half-fiend paladin (homebrew variant, but basically an anti-paladin). I know it's not the same as a half-dragon, but I can say that I found the two levels I was missing to be a severe hindrance and not worth the benefits of the template.


I was thinking about removing the claw attacks as the character I've been thinking up is more of a furred dragon and also finding a way to add a vulnerability to fire to try and balance it out a bit

also found the god, it's Apsu

also thanks for the replies, normally when I post something on other forums it takes ages to get anything


The natural attacks aren't as big a deal as they tend to be made out to be. You get a couple extra hits in if you're one handing with no shield, you get 3 attacks if you go full natural. It's more painful early on than later on. Still, they can be nice to have.

Vulnerability to fire is a reasonable thing. I honestly don't think it's necessary. All you are really getting out of this over everyone else is some better ac and stats and the ability to go into a blizzard and make a snowman safely. Well from the cold anyways.

And while higher stats can be a big deal, I'd rather class levels over them. Fact is you're sacrificing 2 levels of capability in exchange for some stats. It's still nowhere near as derp as the vampire template. That template is ridiculous.

So yeah I;d personally say 2 levels is more than a fair trade for that template. It's really not that big a deal overall.


Seriously? there is a reason's Cr's are what they are they built the balance into it, i have been looking at making a character and one of the race options had 2 racial hd for +4, +4, +2,+2 (kinda aasimar tiefling style where different types of the race moved the pluses around) starting at level 9 gestalt so i could either be 8/8/2 or 9/7/2 and i did not want to be behind in class abilities to take the two racial HD

not to mention this is just straight CR so you dont have full HD you are two levels behind getting your second attack you are missing divine grace and any other class abilites, you are 2 extra levels away from spell casting

what you are getting in short has to be worth giving stuff up for


Why not play a full dragon? Rite Publishing In the Company of Dragons is a fairly balanced way to play a dragon PC and not be over powerful compared to the rest of the typical party - granted its 3PP.


What if you just played a Draconic Bloodrager or a Draconic Sorcerer who's more directly related to their draconic progenitor than most?

Sovereign Court

When a mommy dragon and a papa human really really love each other...

Sigh


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Ventnor wrote:
What if you just played a Draconic Bloodrager or a Draconic Sorcerer who's more directly related to their draconic progenitor than most?

maybe because none of those fit his idea for his character?


It is never a good idea to mix templates with characters that do not have the template. The extra stats in the half dragon template will make it so that your character is way more powerful than the other characters. Your first couple of levels you will be a glass cannon, but will quickly catch up and then surpass the rest of the party. By 6th level you will have the same HP as a paladin without the template and then every level past that you gain more HP than the normal character. The extra STR is going to mean you hit more often and harder than anything in the group. Early on the extra natural attacks will do more damage and have a better chance to hit than any weapon due to your extra STR.

Templates are in the bestiary for a reason. They are not to give the players more option, but rather to allow the GM to create cool monsters for the party to fight. Even if the whole party has templates it can throw off the balance of the game. A party with templates will be able to handle certain things that others of their level will not be able to deal with, but in other aspects they are the same as an equivalent level player.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Even if the whole party has templates it can throw off the balance of the game. A party with templates will be able to handle certain things that others of their level will not be able to deal with, but in other aspects they are the same as an equivalent level player.

it is the mark of a true dm to be able to compensate for it


Blackvial wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
What if you just played a Draconic Bloodrager or a Draconic Sorcerer who's more directly related to their draconic progenitor than most?
maybe because none of those fit his idea for his character?

Then maybe crossblood it with the Celestial Bloodline, which is basically the Paladin Bloodline for Bloodragers. Or multiclass with both classes: Paladins for the holy stuff and Bloodrager for the Draconic Stuff. They both want Strength and Charisma and both are Full BAB classes with a d10 hit die, so it should work out okay.


The ideal option for templated characters is that everybody has a templated character (or something similar). Otherwise, things get difficult.

At low levels, the templates are awesome. At higher levels, less so-- that's the point when Fly is easy to access, when the natural attacks suck without a lot of investment, etc.

Dark Archive

I would say that maybe grab the young template(gives -1 CR technically) then stay two levels behind and it would be pretty balanced.(Young reduces your size by one(it reduces NA by 2, Strength by 4, Constitution by 4, and increases Dexterity by 4)
Overall your bonuses would look like
+2 extra to any one stat
Str +4
Dex +4
Con +2
Int +2
Cha +2
Natural armour +2
Darkvision 60'
Immunity to sleep, paralysis, and cold
2x 1d3 claws and 1x 1d4 bite
Flight 60'
1/day breath weapon for lvld6 damage
Bonus Feat(Human)
+1 SP/lvl(Human)

Your to hit is even with a paladin of two levels higher, your health is a lot amount less... Your AC is 4 higher, you have better resistances, you have a slightly stronger full attack, but your damage dice is smaller as you are now small... So overall I'd say it's pretty even if you take the young template.


that'd work as I was thinking about how I'd reduce for size, but where is the young dragon template?


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Icehawk wrote:

It gives flight, but that's accessible by level 5, so you only have 2 levels of superiority.

Constant flight > someone in the party maybe having a short-duration flight spell prepared.

Icehawk wrote:
You get some immunities. Immune to colds the big one in this group, immune to paralysis is just freedom of movement away so everyone will have it at a certain point.

Again, a constant immunity is way better than a spell a caster gets a couple times per day.

Icehawk wrote:
Some natural attacks, meh.

No, not "meh". Claw/claw/bite is quite good. It means the paladin gets at least one extra attack in and is always considered armed. Natural attacks are quite good for a melee fighter to have.

Icehawk wrote:
So a couple early immunitites and a movement rate and some sizable ac and stat buffs compared to 2d10 hd, faster access to divine bond, faster access to spells, and several other features and you never getting the capstone.

This assumes the game isn't running with XP, of course.

Blackvial wrote:
it is the mark of a true dm to be able to compensate for it

It is the mark of a good player to not force extra work on his GM so just so he alone can play something weird. ;)

In total, the stat increases come out to something like this:

HP: +60 Con -2d10 Hit Dice = 49 HP advantage

(Smite Evil) Attack Bonus: +4 Str -2 BAB -1 feat +1 Cha = +2 to-hit advantage

(Smite Evil) Damage (assuming a greatsword and ignoring the Bite): +6 Str -2 paladin level = +4 damage advantage

Skill Points: -6ish level +18 Int -2 FCB = 10 skill points advantage

Saves: +3 Con -1 base / +0 Dex -0 base / +0 Wis -1 base = +2 Fort advantage, +0 Ref advantage, -1 Will disadvantage

The only thing of any meaning this character loses is a few spells (though his extra Charisma adds bonus spells anyways) and Holy Champion. Add in flight, three useful immunities, the dragon type, natural attacks, natural armor and being able to fight swarms (which I hear is a complicated affair for paladins) and I really can't see how this is such a balanced trade. You lose an improved channel, some DR, and a specialized anti-evil outsider ability. In exchange you get everything else better.

Basically, this paladin starts awesome and gets slightly less awesome, but I don't know that it ever really evens out.


well I took the plunge and bought the beginners box so I think I'll keep the half dragon for a later campaign, though the divine bond and spells I'll have access to at the same time as a normal paladin, or at least that's how I read into the rules


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

When a mommy dragon and a papa human really really love each other...

Sigh

Thankfully, according to the bestiary most half-dragons are created through magical rituals and experimentation rather than "love".


Silvers can shapechange, and often pose as humanoids.

why does everyone seem to assume that half dragons are the result of some freaky form of bestiality?...

To actually answer the original question, I have played a LOT of half-dragons. They are weaker at low levels (less HP) but not by much, and they get better really really quick.

If you are allowed to do it, do it. The other players may resent you though, cause you will get very powerful very quickly. Losing a couple levels will affect your spellcasting and other abilities, but you will dominate melee.

Totally worth it.

Silver Crusade

Wait, wait, when did the breath weapon become lvl in d6s?

PRD reads:

Half Dragon from the PRD wrote:
A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a breath weapon usable once per day based on the dragon variety (see below). The breath weapon deals 1d6 hit points of damage per racial HD possessed by the half-dragon (Reflex half; DC 10 + 1/2 creature's racial HD + creature's Con modifier).

Your racial HD counts as one if you're a PC race. A 20th level half dragon paladin has a 1d6 breath weapon.


interesting


Yeah, the breath weapon part got nerfed hard for PCs.

I miss my 3.5 half dragons... 6D8 breath weapon, and you could take a feat to get it every 1D4 rounds if I recall correctly. :D

Pathfinder ones get wings without having to be large though, so there's that...

Silver Crusade

Its an intentional design. Apparently the Paizo folks didn't like seeing half-dragon PCs and NPCs, and wanted more half-dragon monsters.


I used half dragon monsters a LOT in my last game.

T-Rex half dragons can gain class levels. :D


Spook205 wrote:

Wait, wait, when did the breath weapon become lvl in d6s?

PRD reads:

Half Dragon from the PRD wrote:
A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a breath weapon usable once per day based on the dragon variety (see below). The breath weapon deals 1d6 hit points of damage per racial HD possessed by the half-dragon (Reflex half; DC 10 + 1/2 creature's racial HD + creature's Con modifier).
Your racial HD counts as one if you're a PC race. A 20th level half dragon paladin has a 1d6 breath weapon.

A typical player character race has ZERO racial HD (Elf, Dwarf, Human, ... etc.).

Silver Crusade

Guru-Meditation wrote:
Spook205 wrote:

Wait, wait, when did the breath weapon become lvl in d6s?

PRD reads:

Half Dragon from the PRD wrote:
A half-dragon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains a breath weapon usable once per day based on the dragon variety (see below). The breath weapon deals 1d6 hit points of damage per racial HD possessed by the half-dragon (Reflex half; DC 10 + 1/2 creature's racial HD + creature's Con modifier).
Your racial HD counts as one if you're a PC race. A 20th level half dragon paladin has a 1d6 breath weapon.

A typical player character race has ZERO racial HD (Elf, Dwarf, Human, ... etc.).

Untrue. Baseline folks have 1 racial.

PRD's entry on humanoids informs us.

Humanoid Type wrote:


Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are typically presented as 1st-level warriors, which means they have average combat ability and poor saving throws. Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type. A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

If they didn't have racial HD, you couldn't make skeletons and zombies out of them. Notice it states they 'exchange the features,' they don't lose the racial HD although that equates to the same thing.

And getting 1d8 hp is one of the 'features' for the humanoid type. Before someone tries the 'I should get 1d10+1d8 hp' thing :p

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