True, but you can use readied actions to get the sneak attack in.Grease is also a very nice one for forcing enemies to be Flat-Footed.Grease only Flat Foots on enemies turn in PF, small nerf to sneak attack.
I hear-tell that Opportune Parry & Riposte also lets you make attacks on opponents' turns.
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I hear-tell that Opportune Parry & Riposte also lets you make attacks on opponents' turns.True, but you can use readied actions to get the sneak attack in.Grease is also a very nice one for forcing enemies to be Flat-Footed.Grease only Flat Foots on enemies turn in PF, small nerf to sneak attack.
Snake and Crane Style too, for those wanting a ninja like rogue.
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Grease is also a very nice one for forcing enemies to be Flat-Footed.Grease only Flat Foots on enemies turn in PF, small nerf to sneak attack.
Is this true for all slippery and narrow surfaces? I may have to adjust some of my tactics.
(Although surely if you're crossing a large patch of ice you don't lose your Dex to AC when you make your first Acrobatics check, gain it back in between turns while you're standing there, and then lose it again when you start moving. Cause that would be silly...)
Grease is also a very nice one for forcing enemies to be Flat-Footed.Grease only Flat Foots on enemies turn in PF, small nerf to sneak attack.Is this true for all slippery and narrow surfaces? I may have to adjust some of my tactics.
(Although surely if you're crossing a large patch of ice you don't lose your Dex to AC when you make your first Acrobatics check, gain it back in between turns while you're standing there, and then lose it again when you start moving. Cause that would be silly...)
First, you can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted below. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.
While you are using it by moving through terrain like ice, acrobatics makes you flat footed. You aren't using acrobatics when you aren't moving, so you aren't flat footed between turns.
Silly as it is, that's how it works. IIRC it originally worked like you think it should but Paizo changed it specifically to nerf the rogue (I think it was Jason who did it?).
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(Although surely if you're crossing a large patch of ice you don't lose your Dex to AC when you make your first Acrobatics check, gain it back in between turns while you're standing there, and then lose it again when you start moving. Cause that would be silly...)First, you can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted below. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.While you are using it by moving through terrain like ice, acrobatics makes you flat footed. You aren't using acrobatics when you aren't moving, so you aren't flat footed between turns.
Silly as it is, that's how it works. IIRC it originally worked like you think it should but Paizo changed it specifically to nerf the rogue (I think it was Jason who did it?).
Wow. Ok. Good to know for PFS.
I can see the game balance argument, but it fails my verisimilitude test. I think my personal house rule on the matter would be that you lose your Dex to AC depending on your footing, but that I would also allow an Acrobatics check at something like DC+10 to keep your Dex to AC in situations when you would otherwise lose it.
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Wound weal does nothing against fast healing though. It's EX, and it doesn't require a heal check.Correct. You'll need a different solution for that. I don't know of one right off, though. :)
Anyone else?
Death variant channeling would work if you have a cleric buddy with negative channeling.
Death: Heal: Creatures gain a channel bonus on stabilization checks when dying and on saves against death effects for 1 minute. Harm: Creatures gain a channel penalty on stabilization checks when dying for 1 minute, and subtract the channel penalty from all healing magic, fast healing, and regeneration.
Mudball is a nice spell for goblin rogues
It dies to action economy. Spellstrike, anyone?
Well, you could get quicken SLA for it...
at how late a level again?
but richard, it's built-in attack bonus is the flanking/flat-footed bonus, which it will certainly always be getting, because when has terrain or movement hazards (reach, etc) been a thing! enemy CMD as tumble DC is perfectly manageable *coughtbefore6thlevelcough*, so flanking is super easy to get!
what do you mean other people get that as well? it just incentivizes them to help you get it set up! if you think about it, you're like a bard, passing around the accuracy buffs to teammates with positioning!
or you can take a two-talent tax for minor/major magic for that ice multi-touch spell and just hit touch AC all the time! and you can sneak attack in the dark now--that's like an accuracy increase right there, right?
honestly im not sure what all you roll-players are complaining about, the class is fine.
just having some fun at the rogue's expense, for old time's sake.
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The penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round.
My concern with the class is that it's still feat starved, and very weak on saves. So, you spend a feat on propping up a save... well, you get the idea.
I had forgotten about the duration of the penalty stacking, which does help a little, but you still need to hit in the first place. If the odds of your first attack hitting are roughly 50% before flanking, then your not likely to also land iterative attacks to extend that penalty's duration.
The penalty initially only lasts for 1 round, so it most likely ends before you next turn unless you are lucky enough to land multiple blows in the same round.
Depending on how you use Major Magic, you should be able to apply the debilitating injury. True strike or vanish requires a round of setup but would otherwise work fairly well, I think?I use shocking grasp, since it is much more likely to land a hit and thus penalize my foe.I agree with Ravingdork, the new abilities are nice but they don't go far enough. The one consistent issue rogues have is the ability to hit. Giving the class an ability that activates after a hit is not an improvement on that front. It always comes down to the fact that any other 3/4 BAB class will have assets to help them hit. Burning a class ability like minor/major magic and taking a turn to cast a spell that ensures a single hit isn't good enough when you are back where you started the turn after the hit. The higher the level, the more apparent the absence of an attack bonus becomes.
The class needs a built in attack bonus. Period.
Either Sniping or Two-Weapon Feint (depending on your preferred style) can accomlish this, and are much easier to bring on line now.
Either Sniping or Two-Weapon Feint (depending on your preferred style) can accomlish this, and are much easier to bring on line now.The penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round.
My concern with the class is that it's still feat starved, and very weak on saves. So, you spend a feat on propping up a save... well, you get the idea.
I had forgotten about the duration of the penalty stacking, which does help a little, but you still need to hit in the first place. If the odds of your first attack hitting are roughly 50% before flanking, then your not likely to also land iterative attacks to extend that penalty's duration.
The penalty initially only lasts for 1 round, so it most likely ends before you next turn unless you are lucky enough to land multiple blows in the same round.
Depending on how you use Major Magic, you should be able to apply the debilitating injury. True strike or vanish requires a round of setup but would otherwise work fairly well, I think?I use shocking grasp, since it is much more likely to land a hit and thus penalize my foe.I agree with Ravingdork, the new abilities are nice but they don't go far enough. The one consistent issue rogues have is the ability to hit. Giving the class an ability that activates after a hit is not an improvement on that front. It always comes down to the fact that any other 3/4 BAB class will have assets to help them hit. Burning a class ability like minor/major magic and taking a turn to cast a spell that ensures a single hit isn't good enough when you are back where you started the turn after the hit. The higher the level, the more apparent the absence of an attack bonus becomes.
The class needs a built in attack bonus. Period.
One requires you to place yourself away from allies and rely on a skill roll to keep you from dying horribly (fun fact, perception is a fairly commonly taken skill amongst non-class-leveled creatures). Not to mention that alternate senses like tremorsense laugh at your stealth rolls.
The other requires 2 feats, 13 int on a character that gets little out of int, a fairly decent skill roll(which won't be that reliable at low levels), costs you an attack, forces you into a specific fighting style and it also needs a d8 class with little in the way of defenses to begin a round sitting next to a big monster to function(which probably means the rogue will eat a full attack before getting a chance to feint).
Compare to heroism+song. Standard to cast, move to sing. Enjoy your Plusses.
Well, the Unchained Rogue fares very well in the revised action economy. Feint is an action, and TWF is an action, so it can be pretty efficient.
Flanking nets you +2 to hit, and if you have a Commander-style character throwing out Tactician or similar abilities, you've got Outflank (because it's a REALLY nice ability to have), so your to-hit is +4.
After that, you get +4 to hit or greater for every succeeding attack, meaning a total of +8 to hit while you're flanking.
Add on the fact that "Additional Attacks that deal Sneak Attack extend the duration by 1 Round" means you're going be getting +4 to hit for a fairly good amount of time.
It requires a big feat investment, but Nature Soul+Animal Ally+Boon Companion+Combat Expertise + Pack Flanking will give you constant flanking as a rogue to enable Sneak Attack. Add in outflank and your accuracy issues disappear.
And it only costs you 6 feats...
Big feat investment is an understatement.
Honestly, at that stage you would be better as a hunter or sacred huntmaster inquisitor with a 3 level rogue dip. You are crippled until fairly high levels trying that as a rogue, considering that a human rogue takes til level 7 to manage 6 feats and will be terrible in the meantime. A non-human that wants twf before trying to get a companion so they can contribute slightly in the meantime won't have outflank till level 10.
Actually - at level 8 a Scout archetype can get a full attack with SA pretty easily with Jaunt Boots. Assuming they hit at least twice - their accuracy issues are over for that foe as they stack up the Debilitating Injury rounds.
Only the first attack in the full attack would benefit from the scout's ability(it explicitly states such). If that misses, which it is very likely to since you are a rogue without flanking or a charge, you are in trouble.
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Actually - at level 8 a Scout archetype can get a full attack with SA pretty easily with Jaunt Boots. Assuming they hit at least twice - their accuracy issues are over for that foe as they stack up the Debilitating Injury rounds.Only the first attack in the full attack would benefit from the scout's ability(it explicitly states such). If that misses, which it is very likely to since you are a rogue without flanking or a charge, you are in trouble.
Good catch. Though it's still a more useful combo than previously, as if the primary attack does connect, the lesser ones likely will as well.
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One requires you to place yourself away from allies and rely on a skill roll to keep you from dying horribly (fun fact, perception is a fairly commonly taken skill amongst non-class-leveled creatures). Not to mention that alternate senses like tremorsense laugh at your stealth rolls.Either Sniping or Two-Weapon Feint (depending on your preferred style) can accomlish this, and are much easier to bring on line now.I agree with Ravingdork, the new abilities are nice but they don't go far enough. The one consistent issue rogues have is the ability to hit. Giving the class an ability that activates after a hit is not an improvement on that front. It always comes down to the fact that any other 3/4 BAB class will have assets to help them hit. Burning a class ability like minor/major magic and taking a turn to cast a spell that ensures a single hit isn't good enough when you are back where you started the turn after the hit. The higher the level, the more apparent the absence of an attack bonus becomes.
The class needs a built in attack bonus. Period.
Well, a sniper is away from allies *and* enemies, so they shouldn't be dying horribly. You're shooting from cover and/or concealment by definition, which fortifies your defense. And the range on a sniper's Sneak Attack is far enough that you aren't worried about someone closing and killing you in one turn.
And by the time tremor sense comes into play I would expect to either be off the ground or shooting from farther away.
The other requires 2 feats, 13 int on a character that gets little out of int, a fairly decent skill roll(which won't be that reliable at low levels), costs you an attack, forces you into a specific fighting style and it also needs a d8 class with little in the way of defenses to begin a round sitting next to a big monster to function(which probably means the rogue will eat a full attack before getting a chance to feint).
Between Skill Unlocks and Minor/Major Magic DCs being Int-based, Rogues actually get quite a bit out of Int. I would also never close and feint -- you feint the turn before you close. As for being forced into a fighting style -- you're not going this route unless that's already your jam, obviously. (Besides, the consensus is that TWF is the Rogue's power build now.)
For comparative purposes, here is Siinsa Tosscobble, a vicious street thug, as both a standard rogue and an unchained rogue.
What do you think? Did unchained take it far enough?
Both of them have glaring holes in their defences. +7 fort and +5 will at level 9 is pretty dangerous.
CR9 includes things like DC22 Will (Vampire dominate), DC21 Fortitude (Vrock shriek) and DC21 Will (Fungus Queen charm monster).
CR10 includes things like DC21 Fortitude (Guardian Naga poison), DC23 Will (Nereid aura) and DC23 Fortitude (Bebilith poison).
Okay, I'm gonna jump into the hornet's nest here—
Would you expect a wizard or sorcerer of that level to have better saves? Obviously, replace Will with Reflex. And if they rely on buffs, what buffs? How likely is it they'll have them up 24/7, and how hard would it be for the rogue to obtain the same?
My point isn't that "wizards and sorcerers suck because 1 good save", nor is it that the rogue rivals either. My point is that while one good save sucks, it's not alone enough to make a build exactly "bad". Plenty of other classes not only get by, they're known as some of the best options in the game.
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As someone noted in the Advice Forum a while ago, Twist Away + a Ring of Ferocious Action also solves the 'low saves' problem in many ways at a minimal opportunity cost (1 Feat + 3000 gp).
And that's almost a Rogue exclusive option, since it requires Evasion and a bad Fort Save to be a good idea.
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As someone noted in the Advice Forum a while ago, Twist Away + a Ring of Ferocious Action also solves the 'low saves' problem in many ways at a minimal opportunity cost (1 Feat + 3000 gp).
And that's almost a Rogue exclusive option, since it requires Evasion and a bad Fort Save to be a good idea.
Ooh, Twist Away seemed really groan-worthy when I first saw it but combined with that Ring it's actually pretty solid. Definitely a better investment than Greater Fortitude.
As someone noted in the Advice Forum a while ago, Twist Away + a Ring of Ferocious Action also solves the 'low saves' problem in many ways at a minimal opportunity cost (1 Feat + 3000 gp).
And that's almost a Rogue exclusive option, since it requires Evasion and a bad Fort Save to be a good idea.
A single dip into Wanderer Monk also helps quite a bit. Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, and +2 on all 3 stats is pretty nice for a single dip. Sure, your Sneak progression is slowed by a level, but it's still pretty nice.
Wizards have a bad Fort save, so I guess they're halfway. Also, I think assuming a constant "Resist Energy" against every major element is classified as "cheating". ;P
When they happen to prepare them, wizards will often cast these on the guys entering the line of "fire" (like the aforementioned rogue). And communal resist energy only lasts about an hour per person at most—enough for some situations, but not longer days.
Oops. I'm crossing the threads.
For comparative purposes, here is Siinsa Tosscobble, a vicious street thug, as both a standard rogue and an unchained rogue.
What do you think? Did unchained take it far enough?
Both of them have glaring holes in their defences. +7 fort and +5 will at level 9 is pretty dangerous.
CR9 includes things like DC22 Will (Vampire dominate), DC21 Fortitude (Vrock shriek) and DC21 Will (Fungus Queen charm monster).
CR10 includes things like DC21 Fortitude (Guardian Naga poison), DC23 Will (Nereid aura) and DC23 Fortitude (Bebilith poison).
Okay, I'm gonna jump into the hornet's nest here—
Would you expect a wizard or sorcerer of that level to have better saves? Obviously, replace Will with Reflex. And if they rely on buffs, what buffs? How likely is it they'll have them up 24/7, and how hard would it be for the rogue to obtain the same?
My point isn't that "wizards and sorcerers suck because 1 good save", nor is it that the rogue rivals either. My point is that while one good save sucks, it's not alone enough to make a build exactly "bad". Plenty of other classes not only get by, they're known as some of the best options in the game.
Everyone is susceptible to being targeted by will saves, so they are important. But often it's only the melee folk that worry about fort saves. So casters with low fort saves just stay away from needing to make them. The rogue is iconically seen as a melee combatant, thus having low saves for both is problematic.
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A single dip into Wanderer Monk also helps quite a bit. Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, and +2 on all 3 stats is pretty nice for a single dip. Sure, your Sneak progression is slowed by a level, but it's still pretty nice.As someone noted in the Advice Forum a while ago, Twist Away + a Ring of Ferocious Action also solves the 'low saves' problem in many ways at a minimal opportunity cost (1 Feat + 3000 gp).
And that's almost a Rogue exclusive option, since it requires Evasion and a bad Fort Save to be a good idea.
If you're dipping - you'd probably be better of dipping into Snakebite Striker Brawler.
It doesn't help your will save, but it gives you SA & several other goodies. No flurry for a 1 level dip, but you can't use the monk's flurry in armor anyway. (Wanderer can't mesh with Sohei.)
Wizards have a bad Fort save, so I guess they're halfway. Also, I think assuming a constant "Resist Energy" against every major element is classified as "cheating". ;P
When they happen to prepare them, wizards will often cast these on the guys entering the line of "fire" (like the aforementioned rogue). And communal resist energy only lasts about an hour per person at most—enough for some situations, but not longer days.
Oops. I'm crossing the threads.
To be fair, a typical wizard will have 14+ in dex and con and gets good mileage out of both of them.
Rogues tend to pump up dex really high to make up for their terrible to-hit, and after int for major magic and Con so the rogue doesn't die there isn't much left for wisdom. God forbid you want to not dump Cha as well.
Weird. I see the casters making plenty of Fort saves, but I guess it depends on how monsters are run, built, and how many of them are phase spiders (sorry, Rodrigo).
Wizards have a bad Fort save, so I guess they're halfway. Also, I think assuming a constant "Resist Energy" against every major element is classified as "cheating". ;P
When they happen to prepare them, wizards will often cast these on the guys entering the line of "fire" (like the aforementioned rogue). And communal resist energy only lasts about an hour per person at most—enough for some situations, but not longer days.
Oops. I'm crossing the threads.
To be fair, a typical wizard will have 14+ in dex and con and gets good mileage out of both of them.
Rogues tend to pump up dex really high to make up for their terrible to-hit, and after int for major magic and Con so the rogue doesn't die there isn't much left for wisdom. God forbid you want to not dump Cha as well.
Is Major Magic really that big a deal, especially considering that many Rogue Talents got buffed up? Moreover, are the only spells worth taking for Major Magic the ones that rely on saving throws?
"YEAH, BURNING HANDS, M&*#%*+@+*#+!"
Wizards have a bad Fort save, so I guess they're halfway. Also, I think assuming a constant "Resist Energy" against every major element is classified as "cheating". ;P
When they happen to prepare them, wizards will often cast these on the guys entering the line of "fire" (like the aforementioned rogue). And communal resist energy only lasts about an hour per person at most—enough for some situations, but not longer days.
Oops. I'm crossing the threads.
To be fair, a typical wizard will have 14+ in dex and con and gets good mileage out of both of them.
Rogues tend to pump up dex really high to make up for their terrible to-hit, and after int for major magic and Con so the rogue doesn't die there isn't much left for wisdom. God forbid you want to not dump Cha as well.
Is Major Magic really that big a deal, especially considering that many Rogue Talents got buffed up? Moreover, are the only spells worth taking for Major Magic the ones that rely on saving throws?
"YEAH, BURNING HANDS, M**#~&&@$%#$!"
If you want enough int for major magic you end up taking at least a 12 in int (10 if you only want minor or plan to spend gold on an int headband), which hurts if you would otherwise dump int hard.
People seem to be going on about minor/major magic, so apparently it is really a big deal.
Weird. I see the casters making plenty of Fort saves, but I guess it depends on how monsters are run, built, and how many of them are phase spiders (sorry, Rodrigo).
Most fortitude saves I've seen are riders on a monster's attack-poison on a spider, Ghoul Fever from a Ghoul, etc.
It's an 11, actually. But yeah, you can't dump it if you want to get that talent (honestly, considering how cheap wands are, and how cheap wizard teammates are, I'm not seeing the big deal).
If you want to both get it and be a charismatic character, sure, you may not be able to get a great Wisdom. But Strength is a fairly safe dump if you're desperate, as long as you're willing to suffer through a couple levels of crap attacks. ;P
Point is, I think this is pretty wranglable.
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The best uses for major magic don't need saves or have saves you don't give a damn about.
Chill Touch: Hello, Touch Sneak Attacks for the entire encounter.
True Strike: More setup, but great for getting that first hit in.
Vanish: Mobility and Sneak Attack enabler
Shield: +4 AC and MM immunity, why not?
Protection From Evil: Protection from your crappy will save. Hey, +2 AC too.
Longarm: Extra reach makes it easier to flank, and enables AoOs that can also be sneak attacks.
Reduce Person: +2 to hit, possibly allowing a huge amount of synergy with a mouser swashbuckler dip.
Well, I guess vanish and chill touch are pretty good, anyways. Rest of it does kinda seem like wand/potion material, though. Admittedly, not as reliable, but it does make the ability less a "must-have" and more "another really sweet option".
Well, I guess vanish and chill touch are pretty good, anyways. Rest of it does kinda seem like wand/potion material, though. Admittedly, not as reliable, but it does make the ability less a "must-have" and more "another really sweet option".
I haven't taken a close look at the rogue talent list.
What *are* the other really sweet options?
I don't have Unchained yet, but my understanding is that a lot of the talents have been vastly improved.
windy escape; I like vanish too.
Well, there is also the fact that Major Magic has a caster level of your level, and wands are stuck at CL 1 unless you really invest in them. Also the fact that as a SLA, you don't need a free hand to cast the damn thing, and for the one round cast time spells, they are now a standard.
Hence my saying that Chill Touch and a couple others are good to have in non-wand form (though the wizard friend still stands for most of those buffs).
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okay, so so far we've got a few helpfuls/must-haves for rogues so far:
-twist away (feat) + ring of ferocious action (3000g)
-minor magic: detect magic (talent) + major magic: chill touch (talent)
-clear spindle ioun stone (4000g, 1000g if cracked) + wayfinder (500g)
top helps shore up fort saves, middle makes finding magical traps a cinch and helps accuracy via touch AC targeting, last helps protect against some of the gnarlier will save effects.
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unrelated to rogue, but speaking of wayfinder combos, unchained barbarians should definitely look at the pale green prism a lot harder, since their post-rage fatigue is a flat minute.