Purple Dragon Knight |
yes... playing a charlatan/bandit, and will take underhanded for 4th level talent... (when I built it I thought ambush would give me a full attack in the surprise round but I now understand we gain a 'separate' move and standard action during surprise round, correct me if I'm wrong though...)
Still, even with just one attack in surprise round, I get to pull a dagger as a free action (or two of them), move, and shank for max damage on the sneak attack (now adding dex to it AND debilitating injury... a good fight opener... :) )
Mark Seifter Designer |
yes... playing a charlatan/bandit, and will take underhanded for 4th level talent... (when I built it I thought ambush would give me a full attack in the surprise round but I now understand we gain a 'separate' move and standard action during surprise round, correct me if I'm wrong though...)
Still, even with just one attack in surprise round, I get to pull a dagger as a free action (or two of them), move, and shank for max damage on the sneak attack (now adding dex to it AND debilitating injury... a good fight opener... :) )
Pair up with a buddy with Lookout and...well...it's pretty devastating. I wouldn't want to meet that bandit along the side of the road, I'll tell you!
Purple Dragon Knight |
One of my player's rogues is using Telling Blow (from the 3.5 PH II), which allows you to add your sneak attack damage on a critical hit. I'm guessing that feat would be overpowered if used by the Unchained rogue?
it's for you to decide... 3.5 mixed with Pathfinder can result in a lot of weird situation, but this one is pretty straightforward for your to decide as it's just a simple addition of damage for that character....
If I was in your shoes: I'd allow it if he's attached to it only on a temporary basis, to see how strong that is. I wouldn't promise anything though... unchained rogue is pretty solid already without added 3.5 cheese
Purple Dragon Knight |
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:Pair up with a buddy with Lookout and...well...it's pretty devastating. I wouldn't want to meet that bandit along the side of the road, I'll tell you!yes... playing a charlatan/bandit, and will take underhanded for 4th level talent... (when I built it I thought ambush would give me a full attack in the surprise round but I now understand we gain a 'separate' move and standard action during surprise round, correct me if I'm wrong though...)
Still, even with just one attack in surprise round, I get to pull a dagger as a free action (or two of them), move, and shank for max damage on the sneak attack (now adding dex to it AND debilitating injury... a good fight opener... :) )
So lookout gives a full-round action as long as I'm adjacent to a fellow character with the feat and we both act in surprise round by way of successful perception? pretty good... i should probably keep the bandit archetype for the times where my lookout buddy is not adjacent to my rogue though... (again, correct me if i'm wrong...)
Arakhor |
If I was in your shoes: I'd allow it if he's attached to it only on a temporary basis, to see how strong that is. I wouldn't promise anything though... unchained rogue is pretty solid already without added 3.5 cheese
We don't run with particularly optimised characters, so spiky things like that stand out. Thanks for your opinion. :)
B. A. Robards-Debardot |
Snorb wrote:And a Feat to get the Skill Unlock for Heal in the first place if you're any class but Rogue+.Snowblind wrote:Snorb wrote:An hour of time per PC wounded and only once per day per PC. At level 14 you can do 1 CR=APL+1 encounter and then maybe if your wounded PCs didn't take more than half their HP in damage and you have a few hours to spare for bandaid application you can go heal up and have another fight, assuming it isn't time for sleep yet. Then it's back to happy fun poking time with a CLW wand.5 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest for one day.
10 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest and long-term care for one day.
15 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest for three days.
20 ranks: Using Tread Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest and long-term care for three days.
And all your character needs is enough Heal ranks, a healer's kit, and an hour of time.
And then the PCs get to go to sleep for eight hours and heal up then! =p
.....Hmm. This requires a decent Wisdom investiture, skill ranks, and maybe maybe Skill Focus (Heal).
......I think I know what I wanna do for Wraith of the Righteous.
Actually I don't think it will take much more than skill points and whatever it takes to get the the Skill Unlock
The Heal Check to Treat Deadly Wounds has DC of 20. Assuming 0 wisdom modifier.
- 1) Since you'll be doing this over an hour, hopefully you won't be doing this in immediate danger so you should be able to take 10.
2) If heal is a class skill (+3)
3) The First one unlocks at 5 ranks (+5)
4) And you'll need 2 Charges (0 penalty) of a healer's kit (+2 Circumstance Bonus)
5) Surgeon's Tools (+1 to the circumstance bonus granted by the healer's kit)
Around level 11 you should be able to make the check without the healer's kit. So the check basically becomes free healing at the cost of an hour.
I did some math on this:
- L* | HP | GP/HP | Ability Damage Healed**
05 | 10 | 2.00 | 2
06 | 12 | 1.67 | 2
07 | 14 | 1.43 | 2
08 | 16 | 1.25 | 2
09 | 18 | 1.11 | 2
10 | 40 | 0.50 | 4
11 | 44 | 0.45 | 4
12 | 48 | 0.42 | 4
13 | 52 | 0.38 | 4
14 | 56 | 0.36 | 4
15 | 90 | 0.22 | 6
16 | 32 | 0.63 | 6
17 | 34 | 0.59 | 6
18 | 36 | 0.56 | 6
19 | 38 | 0.53 | 6
20 | 240 | 0.08 | 12
* This assumes the level of the healer is the same as the healed
** Remember this is healed in each category.
The Battle Field Surgeon Trait gives you the ability to use this one additional time per day per creature.
The Friendless Trait gives you the ability to treat yourself.
Snowblind |
...
Actually I don't think it will take much more than skill points and whatever it takes to get the the Skill UnlockThe Heal Check to Treat Deadly Wounds has DC of 20. Assuming 0 wisdom modifier.
1) Since you'll be doing this over an hour, hopefully you won't be doing this in immediate danger so you should be able to take 10.
2) If heal is a class skill (+3)
3) The First one unlocks at 5 ranks (+5)
4) And you'll need 2 Charges (0 penalty) of a healer's kit (+2 Circumstance Bonus)
5) Surgeon's Tools (+1 to the circumstance bonus granted by the healer's kit)10 + 3 + 5 + 2 + 1 = 21
Around level 11 you should be able to make the check without the healer's kit. So the check basically becomes free healing at the cost of an hour.
I did some math on this:
L* | HP | GP/HP | Ability Damage Healed**
05 | 10 | 2.00 | 2
06 | 12 | 1.67 | 2
07 | 14 | 1.43 | 2
08 | 16 | 1.25 | 2
09 | 18 | 1.11 | 2
10 | 40 | 0.50 | 4
11 | 44 | 0.45 | 4
12 | 48 | 0.42 | 4
13 | 52 | 0.38 | 4
14 | 56 | 0.36 | 4
15 | 90 | 0.22 | 6
16 | 32 | 0.63 | 6
17 | 34 | 0.59 | 6
18 | 36 | 0.56 | 6
19 | 38 | 0.53 | 6
20 | 240 | 0.08 | 12* This assumes the level of the healer is the same as the healed
** Remember this is healed in each category.The Battle Field Surgeon Trait gives you the ability to use this one additional time per day per creature.
The Friendless Trait gives you the ability to treat yourself
Your numbers from 16 to 19 look off.
Is there a way to make the check happen faster or let you use it enough to get through multiple encounters? My problem with heal is that it doesn't actually give you any more real options most of the time. If your front liner party members take more than about 50% of their HP you are not healing them nearly enough for another combat to be a safe option, and then all Heal does is save the cost of a few CLW jabs in exchange for enough waiting time to blow through 10min/level buffs (especially if treating multiple PCs)on top of 1 skill rank/level from the healer. This can also only happen once per day, or twice if you blow a trait on it.
It just seems like Heal isn't more than a trivial skill points->gp scheme for PCs with the appropriate skill ranks and a feat for everyone but rogues (which could have gone into CWI for boots of the earth, or CW for CLW/Infernal Healing wands, and both of these give a lot more than minor healing supply savings).
Purple Dragon Knight |
Also you can't apply long term care to yourself but it looks like you can treat deadly wounds on yourself. So if you adopt the background skills system (2 additional ranks per level to cover sleight of hand and others) a rogue should now have enough ranks to always take heal... might come in handy during one of those solo missions
Ravingdork |
Here are my first unchained rogues:
Remy the mutant
Ren the poisoner
I highly recommend this class change for ANYONE playing a rogue.
B. A. Robards-Debardot |
Your numbers from 16 to 19 look off.
You were right, there was an error in the formula for my HP column, which threw off the GP/HP column as well.
- L* | HP | GP/HP | Ability Damage Healed**
05 | 10 | 2.00 | 2
06 | 12 | 1.67 | 2
07 | 14 | 1.43 | 2
08 | 16 | 1.25 | 2
09 | 18 | 1.11 | 2
10 | 40 | 0.50 | 4
11 | 44 | 0.45 | 4
12 | 48 | 0.42 | 4
13 | 52 | 0.38 | 4
14 | 56 | 0.36 | 4
15 | 90 | 0.22 | 6
16 | 96 | 0.21 | 6
17 | 102 | 0.20 | 6
18 | 108 | 0.19 | 6
19 | 114 | 0.18 | 6
20 | 240 | 0.08 | 12
* This assumes the level of the healer is the same as the healed
** Remember this is healed in each category.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:...
Actually I don't think it will take much more than skill points and whatever it takes to get the the Skill UnlockThe Heal Check to Treat Deadly Wounds has DC of 20. Assuming 0 wisdom modifier.
1) Since you'll be doing this over an hour, hopefully you won't be doing this in immediate danger so you should be able to take 10.
2) If heal is a class skill (+3)
3) The First one unlocks at 5 ranks (+5)
4) And you'll need 2 Charges (0 penalty) of a healer's kit (+2 Circumstance Bonus)
5) Surgeon's Tools (+1 to the circumstance bonus granted by the healer's kit)10 + 3 + 5 + 2 + 1 = 21
Around level 11 you should be able to make the check without the healer's kit. So the check basically becomes free healing at the cost of an hour.
I did some math on this:
L* | HP | GP/HP | Ability Damage Healed**
05 | 10 | 2.00 | 2
06 | 12 | 1.67 | 2
07 | 14 | 1.43 | 2
08 | 16 | 1.25 | 2
09 | 18 | 1.11 | 2
10 | 40 | 0.50 | 4
11 | 44 | 0.45 | 4
12 | 48 | 0.42 | 4
13 | 52 | 0.38 | 4
14 | 56 | 0.36 | 4
15 | 90 | 0.22 | 6
16 | 96 | 0.63 | 6
17 | 102 | 0.59 | 6
18 | 108 | 0.56 | 6
19 | 114 | 0.53 | 6
20 | 240 | 0.08 | 12* This assumes the level of the healer is the same as the healed
** Remember this is healed in each category.The Battle Field Surgeon Trait gives you the ability to use this one additional time per day per creature.
The Friendless Trait gives you the ability to treat yourselfYour numbers from 16 to 19 look off.
16-19 Should look like that, right? 6 hp/rank?
nice note with the two traits.
==Aelryinth
B. A. Robards-Debardot |
Is there a way to make the check happen faster or let you use it enough to get through multiple encounters? My problem with heal is that it doesn't actually give you any more real options most of the time. If your front liner party members take more than about 50% of their HP you are not healing them nearly enough for another combat to be a safe option, and then all Heal does is save the cost of a few CLW jabs in exchange for enough waiting time to blow through 10min/level buffs (especially if treating multiple PCs)on top of 1 skill rank/level from the healer. This can also only happen once per day, or twice if you blow a trait on it.It just seems like Heal isn't more than a trivial skill points->gp scheme for PCs with the appropriate skill ranks and a feat for everyone but rogues (which could have gone into CWI for boots of the earth, or CW for CLW/Infernal Healing wands, and both of these give a lot more than minor healing supply savings).
Well, it's the first time non-magical healing has really been even close to a useful option in this game.
And again as other have noted it may not be useful in PFS or depending on how your particular table/GM allows you to obtain magical items.But in low magic/wealth campaigns it could be worth quite a lot. Especially since it's equivalent to casting Lesser Restoration one or more times. I could now see NPCs actually going to a Doctor now instead of the temple.
David knott 242 |
Have the Rogue proficiencies been updated any? The CRB Rogue isn't proficient in the Sword Cane (for good reason, admittedly) but it's something that should be included in the updated version.
Rogue weapon and armor proficiencies are unchanged.
Purple Dragon Knight |
looking at the combat swipe rogue talent, i am wondering if finesse training / weapon finesse would let you apply dexterity to your CMB? minor search-fu on the boards revealed that whenever you use a finessable weapon into the maneuver and if you have weapon finesse, then dex is good to go instead of STR (such as disarm maneuver)
now, steal maneuver does not have to be done with a weapon, but the wording specifically include the whip in there, which is finessable; i'm guessing a rogue with a whip could add dex during steal maneuvers, but it seems silly that a rogue with open hands (unarmed attacks being a light, finessable weapon) could not...
therefore, my Q is:
Does Finesse Training extends to the steal maneuver? if not, what maneuvers have the green light with Finesse Training?
Snowblind |
Snowblind wrote:
Is there a way to make the check happen faster or let you use it enough to get through multiple encounters? My problem with heal is that it doesn't actually give you any more real options most of the time. If your front liner party members take more than about 50% of their HP you are not healing them nearly enough for another combat to be a safe option, and then all Heal does is save the cost of a few CLW jabs in exchange for enough waiting time to blow through 10min/level buffs (especially if treating multiple PCs)on top of 1 skill rank/level from the healer. This can also only happen once per day, or twice if you blow a trait on it.It just seems like Heal isn't more than a trivial skill points->gp scheme for PCs with the appropriate skill ranks and a feat for everyone but rogues (which could have gone into CWI for boots of the earth, or CW for CLW/Infernal Healing wands, and both of these give a lot more than minor healing supply savings).
Well, it's the first time non-magical healing has really been even close to a useful option in this game.
And again as other have noted it may not be useful in PFS or depending on how your particular table/GM allows you to obtain magical items.
But in low magic/wealth campaigns it could be worth quite a lot. Especially since it's equivalent to casting Lesser Restoration one or more times. I could now see NPCs actually going to a Doctor now instead of the temple.
It takes too long, doesn't heal enough, and isn't repeatable enough to be a useful alternative unless the GM runs a campaign with about 1 encounter/day.
In terms of how this effects the setting, don't forget that level 5 is equivalent to world class in real life terms. A person would have to go to a doctor that is renowned throughout the realms to get their 1 dex damage from a sprain removed (assuming the doc is withing 24 hours travel). Or they can go to a level 3 cleric, the level of someone who is experienced but not greatly noteworthy. Until level 10, a person with Heal does about as much as a cleric with channel to people without ability damage, but it costs them gold and only works on 1 person/hour.
This actually sums up the effects of Heal nicely in terms of HP healing - it is an extra channel that takes hours to heal the party with. It also does about as much as a single lesser restoration casting 2 levels after clerics could cast lesser restoration. Note that ability damage is annoying when you have a couple of points in a primary skill, but it is crippling when you are eating a -6 penalty due to damage. Heal helps with the annoying situation, but is pretty much useless against the situation that is actually leaves the party a member down.
Let me put it this way, what sort of encounter patterns are you going to be seeing for Heal to be any substitute for magical healing. I only see it working if you are consistently fighting 1 fairly easy encounter/day (hard encounters will deal more damage than Heal can negate). Any other time, and I can't see how you will get by without magical healing. If you do have magical healing, Heal becomes a minor resource saver when you have a reliably large period of time to blow. This isn't worth a feat. Unless skill tricks suck, this isn't worth it for the rogue as well.
Deadmanwalking |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In terms of how this effects the setting, don't forget that level 5 is equivalent to world class in real life terms. A person would have to go to a doctor that is renowned throughout the realms to get their 1 dex damage from a sprain removed (assuming the doc is withing 24 hours travel).
Uh...no. In terms of comparison to real life level 5 is world class. By the settlement rules and the population demographics I imputed from them...well, a town of 80 has someone who can cast 3rd level spells, possibly multiple such people. Such people are definitionally 5th level, and likely not the only 5th level people about.
So...even a small town can easily have a Doctor with the 5 ranks unlock, never mind a city.
wraithstrike |
One of my player's rogues is using Telling Blow (from the 3.5 PH II), which allows you to add your sneak attack damage on a critical hit. I'm guessing that feat would be overpowered if used by the Unchained rogue?
It does not add the sneak attack damage twice so it might be ok.
As an example if you are flanking and getting SA damage anyway the feat did nothing, but if you stabbed someone, and it was crit when you would not normally get SA damage then it would be added.B. A. Robards-Debardot |
I'm not saying it will replace all magical healing, but in limited magic item campaign, it can take a decent burden off your cleric/oracle. And it's on top of the other benefits (meager as they may be) from the heal skill. Strategically, it probably makes more sense to have this on any character but the Healer (if the healer goes down you can treat them, and vice versa).
I've done some equivalencies on the amount of healing, should anyone want them (based on average rolls). Do remember that after level 11 with a wisdom modifier of 0, you should be able to make the DC 20 check by taking 10 (so it will be a consumable free)
- At Level 5, it's worth 1.8x Charges of CLW, 1.0x Charges of Infernal Healing, 1.0x Channels
At Level 6, it's worth 2.2x Charges of CLW, 1.2x Charges of Infernal Healing, 1.1x Channels
At Level 7, it's worth 2.5x Charges of CLW, 1.4x Charges of Infernal Healing, 1.0x Channels
At Level 8, it's worth 2.9x Charges of CLW, 1.6x Charges of Infernal Healing, 1.1x Channels
At Level 9, it's worth 3.3x Charges of CLW, 1.8x Charges of Infernal Healing, 1.0x Channels, or a Cure Moderate Wounds (2nd Level)
At Level 10, it's worth 7.3x Charges of CLW, 4x Charges of Infernal Healing, 2.3x Channels, or a Greater Infernal Healing (4th Level the most efficient 4th Level Healing Spell)
At Level 11, it's worth 8.0x Charges of CLW, 4.4x Charges of Infernal Healing, 2.1x Channels
At Level 12, it's worth 8.7x Charges of CLW, 4.8x Charges of Infernal Healing, 2.3x Channels
At Level 13, it's worth 9.5x Charges of CLW, 5.2x Charges of Infernal Healing, 2.1x Channels
At Level 14, it's worth 10.2x Charges of CLW, 5.6x Charges of Infernal Healing, 2.3x Channels
At Level 15, it's worth 16.4x Charges of CLW, 9.0x Charges of Infernal Healing, 3.2x Channels
At Level 16, it's worth 17.5x Charges of CLW, 9.6x Charges of Infernal Healing, 3.4x Channels
At Level 17, it's worth 18.5x Charges of CLW, 10.2x Charges of Infernal Healing, 3.2x Channels
At Level 18, it's worth 19.6x Charges of CLW, 10.8x Charges of Infernal Healing, 3.4x Channels
At Level 19, it's worth 20.7x Charges of CLW, 11.4x Charges of Infernal Healing, 3.3x Channels
At Level 20, it's worth 43.6x Charges of CLW, 24.0x Charges of Infernal Healing, 6.9x Channels. This heals more HP than the Heal spell which tops out at 150 hp.
At Level 5, a D8 PC with a +2 Con modifier (14 ability + 0 from belt) who took HP for his favored class bonus each level would have 43 Max HP. So this would heal 23% of total health.
At Level 10, a D8 PC with a +3 Con modifier (14 ability + 2 from belt) who took HP for his favored class bonus each level would have 93 Max HP. So this would heal 43% of total health.
At Level 15, a D8 PC with a +4 Con modifier (14 ability + 4 from belt) who took HP for his favored class bonus each level would have 153 Max HP. So this would heal 59% of total health.
At Level 20, a D8 PC with a +5 Con modifier (14 ability + 6 from belt) who took HP for his favored class bonus each level would have a 223 Max HP. So this would heal 108% of total health.
Ravingdork |
For comparative purposes, here is Siinsa Tosscobble, a vicious street thug, as both a standard rogue and an unchained rogue.
What do you think? Did unchained take it far enough?
andreww |
For comparative purposes, here is Siinsa Tosscobble, a vicious street thug, as both a standard rogue and an unchained rogue.
What do you think? Did unchained take it far enough?
Both of them have glaring holes in their defences. +7 fort and +5 will at level 9 is pretty dangerous.
CR9 includes things like DC22 Will (Vampire dominate), DC21 Fortitude (Vrock shriek) and DC21 Will (Fungus Queen charm monster).
CR10 includes things like DC21 Fortitude (Guardian Naga poison), DC23 Will (Nereid aura) and DC23 Fortitude (Bebilith poison).
B. A. Robards-Debardot |
For comparative purposes, here is Siinsa Tosscobble, a vicious street thug, as both a standard rogue and an unchained rogue.
What do you think? Did unchained take it far enough?
Well, it's definitely an upgrade. I'm not sure if it's enough or not. As andreww mentioned, the saves (aside from reflex) haven't gotten any better so your defenses are nearly the same.
But with debilitating injury, you at least have a better chance of connecting with the attacks. Since he's a scout you'll nearly always be able to make the initial sneak attack to apply the debilitating injury.
I'm looking forward to seeing what happens as people play through with the changes and see how it all shakes out.
Secret Wizard |
For comparative purposes, here is Siinsa Tosscobble, a vicious street thug, as both a standard rogue and an unchained rogue.
What do you think? Did unchained take it far enough?
I'd say it did, but that doesn't mean your build is any good :P
Unless my GM were really accommodating, I'd never base a build upon two things that make me useless against both undead and constructs.I'd rather use those extra feats to improve my defences, and I still don't see a reason not to take INT to 10.
Ravingdork |
Ravingdork wrote:For comparative purposes, here is Siinsa Tosscobble, a vicious street thug, as both a standard rogue and an unchained rogue.
What do you think? Did unchained take it far enough?
Both of them have glaring holes in their defences. +7 fort and +5 will at level 9 is pretty dangerous.
CR9 includes things like DC22 Will (Vampire dominate), DC21 Fortitude (Vrock shriek) and DC21 Will (Fungus Queen charm monster).
CR10 includes things like DC21 Fortitude (Guardian Naga poison), DC23 Will (Nereid aura) and DC23 Fortitude (Bebilith poison).
Yeah, she's built more for an urban campaign with a lot of humanoids. In her element, the worst thing she will likely encounter is a competent spellcaster (and let's face it, that's pretty much the worst thing anyone can face).
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Arakhor wrote:One of my player's rogues is using Telling Blow (from the 3.5 PH II), which allows you to add your sneak attack damage on a critical hit. I'm guessing that feat would be overpowered if used by the Unchained rogue?It does not add the sneak attack damage twice so it might be ok.
As an example if you are flanking and getting SA damage anyway the feat did nothing, but if you stabbed someone, and it was crit when you would not normally get SA damage then it would be added.
Actually, the feat did let you double your SA on a crit, adding it to the damage. Remember that you added damage on a crit, you don't multiply it.
So, yes, very strong feat for a crit-fisher build.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Telling Blow specifically stated that your sneak attack was nor doubled as well.
Maybe I'll try to bribe my player with gaining the Unchained rogue benefits if he swaps out that feat for something else. :)
Woops, you're right, I was mixing it up with something else. It became part of the crit damage.
==Aelryinth
pH unbalanced |
looking at the combat swipe rogue talent, i am wondering if finesse training / weapon finesse would let you apply dexterity to your CMB? minor search-fu on the boards revealed that whenever you use a finessable weapon into the maneuver and if you have weapon finesse, then dex is good to go instead of STR (such as disarm maneuver)
now, steal maneuver does not have to be done with a weapon, but the wording specifically include the whip in there, which is finessable; i'm guessing a rogue with a whip could add dex during steal maneuvers, but it seems silly that a rogue with open hands (unarmed attacks being a light, finessable weapon) could not...
therefore, my Q is:
Does Finesse Training extends to the steal maneuver? if not, what maneuvers have the green light with Finesse Training?
The answer to your question is here.
You can use a weapon to aid in a Disarm, Sunder, or Trip Maneuver -- additionally you can use a weapon with the "Trip" property in a Drag or Reposition Maneuver.
To substitute DEX for STR on other maneuvers (such as Steal) requires the Agile Maneuvers feat.
Schadenfreude |
The answer to your question is here.You can use a weapon to aid in a Disarm, Sunder, or Trip Maneuver -- additionally you can use a weapon with the "Trip" property in a Drag or Reposition Maneuver.
To substitute DEX for STR on other maneuvers (such as Steal) requires the Agile Maneuvers feat.
From the same place though:
Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.
So really, it comes down to whether you can convince your GM to allow it, which really depends on your relationship with your GM.
Kudaku |
If unchained rogue is a complete upgrade, what tier would you guys place it in? If it hasn't moved up to 3, would applying it to Ninja (since nothing was removed there is no clash) make ninja tier 3?
I'd say the unchained rogue is in the tipping point between tier 3 and tier 4. It's competent in combat but with two weak saves and a circumstantial accuracy/damage mechanic I wouldn't call it stellar, and seems to fall somewhere between T4's "capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining" and T3's "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate" outside of combat, depending on how you place your skill edges.
If I had to place it I'd say high tier 4. That said, I'm very curious to see how the unchained rogue will look when the fans start to combine it with all the different rogue archetypes.
Tribalgeek |
Rynjin and Kudaku wrote:Stuff about tiersAre there any official or standardized description of these tiers?
Nope they started on the old 3.5 boards as a way of ranking how powerful/useful a particular class was.
It really comes down to wizards at the top rogues and monks at the bottom.
Kudaku |
Rynjin and Kudaku wrote:Stuff about tiersAre there any official or standardized description of these tiers?
Ah okay. I've seen the terms before on the forums, but it's never been more than a loose rating system of power and/or flexibility. The way Kudaku was talking, it sounded like each tier actually had a designated meaning for the power level assigned to it.
The tier system has gone through a few revisions over the years, but it's largely unchanged. There's also been a few attempts to update it to cover all the pathfinder classes, with mixed results. The quotes I used were from the Gameologist board definition, last edited in 2011. The tier system is explained here.
Shisumo |
Ah okay. I've seen the terms before on the forums, but it's never been more than a loose rating system of power and/or flexibility. The way Kudaku was talking, it sounded like each tier actually had a designated meaning for the power level assigned to it.
The original post (someone will be along with a link shortly, I'm sure - AAAAAND ninja'd by Kudaku even as I was saying that) describing the tiers did actually have a pretty explicit description for what being in a given tier meant, and it isn't precisely "has more power." The breakdown had to do with scope of narrative agency, more or less - how much of the game can you interact with, control, or are unable to do the same to.
I have my disagreements with tiers as a philosophy of class judgment, but the concept is not normally addressed accurately or in a way that gives it enough credit for what it was actually about.
Kudaku |
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I find the tier system useful as a broad measurement tool, but it's important to use a healthy dose of skepticism when applying the principles to a party. A good player is fully capable of moving a class one or even two tiers up, while a player with no talent for building good characters or a shaky understanding of the rules can easily use a tier 1 class to make a tier 6 character.
AAAAAND ninja'd by Kudaku even as I was saying that[/ooc]
Silent, deadly, strangely cuddly. ;)