How is the unchained rogue?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Snorb wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Snorb wrote:

5 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest for one day.

10 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest and long-term care for one day.

15 ranks: Using Treat Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest for three days.

20 ranks: Using Tread Deadly Wounds causes your patient to regain HP and ability score damage as if they had complete bed rest and long-term care for three days.

And all your character needs is enough Heal ranks, a healer's kit, and an hour of time.

An hour of time per PC wounded and only once per day per PC. At level 14 you can do 1 CR=APL+1 encounter and then maybe if your wounded PCs didn't take more than half their HP in damage and you have a few hours to spare for bandaid application you can go heal up and have another fight, assuming it isn't time for sleep yet. Then it's back to happy fun poking time with a CLW wand.

And then the PCs get to go to sleep for eight hours and heal up then! =p

.....Hmm. This requires a decent Wisdom investiture, skill ranks, and maybe maybe Skill Focus (Heal).

......I think I know what I wanna do for Wraith of the Righteous.

And a Feat to get the Skill Unlock for Heal in the first place if you're any class but Rogue+.


Rynjin wrote:

Not that I saw.

However, the 15 rank Skill Unlock lets Rogues Cornugon Smash their way to victory over everything.

You can make dudes Cower, then Coup de Grace as a Swift with Merciless Butchery.

Neat.

Out of curiosity, how would the rogue qualify for Merciless Butchery? Is there a rogue archetype that offers Studied Target mechanics?

Arachnofiend wrote:
The Branched Spear is really one of those few exotic weapons that can be worth the feat. If the new Rogue isn't too feat intensive I can see myself picking it up quite often.

I'm about to start playing an elf warlord using the Branched Spear with Deadly Agility, going through Mummy's Mask. It's my first serious reach character, I'm very curious to see how it'll play out. :)

The only thing I'm missing at the moment is a good two-handed blunt weapon that works with Weapon Finesse. The Cestus is decent backup weapon, but I'd love something a little bit more meaty.


Kudaku wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Not that I saw.

However, the 15 rank Skill Unlock lets Rogues Cornugon Smash their way to victory over everything.

You can make dudes Cower, then Coup de Grace as a Swift with Merciless Butchery.

Neat.

Out of curiosity, how would the rogue qualify for Merciless Butchery? Is there a rogue archetype that offers Studied Target mechanics?

...S*~*.

Dip in Slayer? Or Inquisitor, or Druid.


Snorb wrote:


And then the PCs get to go to sleep for eight hours and heal up then! =p

.....Hmm. This requires a decent Wisdom investiture, skill ranks, and maybe maybe Skill Focus (Heal).

......I think I know what I wanna do for Wraith of the Righteous.

This is going to be great for any PCs stuck in a 'Low Magic' game (if the GM allows it).

Scarab Sages

Mark Seifter wrote:
B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:
Schadenfreude wrote:
Debilitating injury is on top of the normal sneak attack damage.
Do these stack with the other talents (pressure points offensive defense, etc) that add effects onto sneak attack damage?
Yes they do. Note that since one of the debilitating injuries is basically a better (since it helps the whole team) offensive defense, the Unchained rogue does not also get offensive defense (it isn't listed in Unchained in either a new version or as being unchanged because it became a debilitating injury). But you can totally combine with dispelling strike, crippling strike, and all your favorites!

Excellent (mwahhaha), it was always tough deciding between offensive defense and pressure points/crippling strike. Now I get to combine them and get a better version without a talent.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Finesse Training, Debilitating Injury, and Rogue's Edge with the skill unlocks are very welcoming additions though the unlocks feel very subpar when compared to Heal skill unlocked. Missed out in turning Hide in Plain Sight into a class ability useable in any environment with maybe a weaker version of Ranger's Terrain Mastery as a class ability.

My biggest concern with the rogue though has always been how poor many of the talents were. I was pleased to see many of the talents buffed but was also disappointed to see a number of talents reprinted virtually unchanged. Even more baffling is that these reprinted talents were actually okay. That printing space could've been put to better use looking at other talents and improving them, namely the ones that grant abilities as once per day or X-number per day. Even more printing space could have been saved instead of creating the Multitalented talents.

Here's my quick rundown of the talents.

Fixed Talents!:
Camouflage
Esoteric Scholar
Hold Breath
Major Magic
Minor Magic
Nimble Climber
Rogue Crawl

Not broke but buff is very welcomed:
-Talents-
Coax Information
Combat Swipe
Expert Leaper
Lasting Poison
Ledge Walker
Quick Disable
Stand Up
Surprise Attack
--Advanced Talents--
Deadly Sneak
Skill Mastery (That buff to Rogue's Edge skills is nice!)

No real change:
-Talents-
Bleeding Attack
Combat Trick
Fast Stealth
Follow Clues
Slow Reactions
Terrain Mastery (Actually it was downgraded. Greater Terrain Mastery should have been rolled into Terrain Mastery and it would be much better. Or better yet, made a class ability)
Trap Spotter
Weapon Training
--Advanced Talents--
Crippling Strike
Defensive Role
Dispelling Attack
Feat
Improved Evasion
Opportunist (cleaned up the language a bit)
Slippery Mind (minor change in language)

Multitalented does not fix:
-Talents-
Assault Leader (Should've been once per round)
Charmer
Positioning Attack (Should've been once per round)
Resiliency (Probably should've been Con modifier/day)
--Advanced Talents--
Another Day (Probably tied to Con/day like resiliency)
Hunter's Surprise (Granted it's powerful but rogue's need it. Probably should have been once per round as a swift action instead of 1/day)
Knock-out Blow (Really should be X times per day)
Master of Disguise (It shouldn't be 1/day in the first place when Hat of Disguise and alter self scrolls exist)
Redirect Attack (Should've been once per round)
Thoughtful Reexaming (Should be once per situation instead 1/day)

Buffed but still weak:
-Talents-
Powerful Sneak (That penalty to hit still hurts, maybe -1 instead?)
Resiliency (still 1/day)
--Advanced Talents--
Master of Disguise (still 1/day)

Designer

Nice thorough list; glad you're taking the time to really look closely at the Unchained rogue and her talents! Many of the categories are opinions, but based on it being listed as "no real change," I would say that you may have missed something on Defensive Roll; I'd look at it again to see if you can spot what!


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Nice thorough list; glad you're taking the time to really look closely at the Unchained rogue and her talents! Many of the categories are opinions, but based on it being listed as "no real change," I would say that you may have missed something on Defensive Roll; I'd look at it again to see if you can spot what!

Well I'll be! I certainly did miss a slight change in language that actually makes this ability amazing!

I'm still of the opinion that the rogue needs a little more oomph. Might be my prejudice as my group just house-ruled Weapon Finesse to also grant the ability to apply dexterity to damage. And all the Finesse Training did was grant a bonus feat to us.

Still though, some of those reprints I feel weren't necessary and could have been replaced other reworked talents. Better yet some form of combat stance like what happened with the Barbarian. A combat stance that gave bonuses to hit but changed sneak attack dice to d4s instead of d6s, like +1 to hit every 5 levels for a decrease in sneak attack damage. Or decrease in pluses to hit for increases to CMB and CMD, -1 per 4 levels for a +2 to CMB/CMD. That would be a really fun idea to mess around with.


Rynjin wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Not that I saw.

However, the 15 rank Skill Unlock lets Rogues Cornugon Smash their way to victory over everything.

You can make dudes Cower, then Coup de Grace as a Swift with Merciless Butchery.

Neat.

Out of curiosity, how would the rogue qualify for Merciless Butchery? Is there a rogue archetype that offers Studied Target mechanics?

...S++*.

Dip in Slayer? Or Inquisitor, or Druid.

Yeah, dipping would definitely work. I was kind of hoping I'd missed a rogue archetype that picked up the Studied Target mechanic. :)

Truth be told I never really understood why Merciless Butchery is a slayer-specific feat. It seems extremely appropriate for a barbarian or an anti-paladin, for example.

Verdant Wheel

Was the reduction of Skill Mastery from 3+INT skills to just INT skills intentional or a typo?


Someone brought up that the Rogue can get Combat Expertise without meeting the prerequisites.

How exactly does that work? Is it a new Rogue talent or something?


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

For those who are planning to allow Unchained Rogues in your campaigns, how are you going to handle other classes like Investigators and Archeologist Bards who can select Rogue Talents? Will they also get the Unchained versions, like the unlimited usage Minor Magic Talent, or will there be one set of Rogue Talents for Rogues and another set of "Rogue" Talents for everyone else?


Scavion wrote:
Rogues make really good mage slayers now. No 5 ft step and halved speed on a successful sneak attack.

what, casting defensively is a thing. Eventually it because an auto succeed


CWheezy wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Rogues make really good mage slayers now. No 5 ft step and halved speed on a successful sneak attack.
what, casting defensively is a thing. Eventually it because an auto succeed

Bleed damage bro.


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Gisher wrote:
For those who are planning to allow Unchained Rogues in your campaigns, how are you going to handle other classes like Investigators and Archeologist Bards who can select Rogue Talents? Will they also get the Unchained versions, like the unlimited usage Minor Magic Talent, or will there be one set of Rogue Talents for Rogues and another set of "Rogue" Talents for everyone else?

I will. The Rogue Talent upgrades are nothing groundbreaking, and more quality of life/"why wasn't it this way before?" sorts of things.


Scavion wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Rogues make really good mage slayers now. No 5 ft step and halved speed on a successful sneak attack.
what, casting defensively is a thing. Eventually it because an auto succeed
Bleed damage bro.

A level 4 21 int wizard has a +9 to their concentration check. You make them take a 10+SL+bleed damage/2 concentration check to cast a spell. if you deal 5 bleed damage (a fairly high amount for bleed) they need to make a DC14 check on their highest spell- they pass on a 5. A 20% chance of stopping casting when everything goes right isn't great odds.


Snowblind wrote:
Scavion wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Rogues make really good mage slayers now. No 5 ft step and halved speed on a successful sneak attack.
what, casting defensively is a thing. Eventually it because an auto succeed
Bleed damage bro.
A level 4 21 int wizard has a +9 to their concentration check. You make them take a 10+SL+bleed damage/2 concentration check to cast a spell. if you deal 5 bleed damage (a fairly high amount for bleed) they need to make a DC14 check on their highest spell- they pass on a 5. A 20% chance of stopping casting when everything goes right isn't great odds.

At lv4, a Wizard is hilariously squishy, so that Sneak Attack and Bleed damage are going to bring it down DAMN fast.

A dead wizard can't cast spells, after all.


And they need to make a casting defensively check.

Force enough rolls and they crumble.


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It's pretty nice when it's something that's just tacked onto what you're doing anyway. A 20% chance of ruining someone's day as a side effect of what you're already doing (an unlimited number of times per day) is nice.

Then tack on that they then also have to make checks for casting defensively.

And that you can (potentially) start dispelling all their spell effects, starting from the lowest level.

Plus a smattering of other things, makes them decent (if not ideal) mage killers.

Still sad about those s&$#ty saves though.


Bleed damage for an even easier concentration check???

I don't see it. It is wizards who have all the options up close, not martials :(


Having bad fort and will saves is pretty backbreaking imo


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
rainzax wrote:
Was the reduction of Skill Mastery from 3+INT skills to just INT skills intentional or a typo?

That's actually deliberate because now it includes the skills that are unlocked with Rogue's Edge at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.

Liberty's Edge

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What the removal of 5-foot steps from enemies really does is solve the 'but people just move away from me, so I never get a full attack while flanking' problem. Which is excellent for the Rogue's combat-usefulness. Any screwing over of spellcasters is incidental (if amusing).


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Could someone explain what Rogue's Edge is?

Is the finesse training limited to a single weapon each time you get it?

Designer

Painful Bugger wrote:
rainzax wrote:
Was the reduction of Skill Mastery from 3+INT skills to just INT skills intentional or a typo?
That's actually deliberate because now it includes the skills that are unlocked with Rogue's Edge at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.

And if you take the talent for more rogue's edge, it automatically upgrades skill mastery as well!

Liberty's Edge

BretI wrote:

Could someone explain what Rogue's Edge is?

Is the finesse training limited to a single weapon each time you get it?

Rogue's Edge allows you to choose one skill. You get the skill unlocks for that skill without having to take the Signature Skill feat. (Unchained rogues gain this class feature at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level; each time they can choose a new skill to unlock.)


Schadenfreude wrote:
Using the stamina rules also helps them, because they can get Combat Expertise without Int 13

Seriously - how can the Rogue gain Combat Expertise without needing 13 Int?

This seems kinda important.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Schadenfreude wrote:
Using the stamina rules also helps them, because they can get Combat Expertise without Int 13

Seriously - how can the Rogue gain Combat Expertise without needing 13 Int?

This seems kinda important.

There's something in the Stamina whatsit that lets you qualify for Combat Expertise and its ilk without meeting the Int prerequisites as long as you have one Stamina left in the pool.


Rynjin wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Schadenfreude wrote:
Using the stamina rules also helps them, because they can get Combat Expertise without Int 13

Seriously - how can the Rogue gain Combat Expertise without needing 13 Int?

This seems kinda important.

There's something in the Stamina whatsit that lets you qualify for Combat Expertise and its ilk without meeting the Int prerequisites as long as you have one Stamina left in the pool.

... but... isn't Stamina a renewable resource? How do you qualify for the feat in the first place?

Liberty's Edge

chbgraphicarts wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Schadenfreude wrote:
Using the stamina rules also helps them, because they can get Combat Expertise without Int 13

Seriously - how can the Rogue gain Combat Expertise without needing 13 Int?

This seems kinda important.

There's something in the Stamina whatsit that lets you qualify for Combat Expertise and its ilk without meeting the Int prerequisites as long as you have one Stamina left in the pool.
... but... isn't Stamina a renewable resource? How do you qualify for the feat in the first place?

Having a stamina pool.


If you use finesse training on a melee weapon capable of being thrown (like a dagger or starknife), does the dex. apply to damage instead of strength?

Sovereign Court

No finesse training is specifically for melee attacks

Sovereign Court

Yes if you use it in melee. No when you throw it.


Alright, thank you. With that description, it'd work with natural weapons too, right?

Sovereign Court

yes


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Schadenfreude wrote:
Using the stamina rules also helps them, because they can get Combat Expertise without Int 13

Seriously - how can the Rogue gain Combat Expertise without needing 13 Int?

This seems kinda important.

There's something in the Stamina whatsit that lets you qualify for Combat Expertise and its ilk without meeting the Int prerequisites as long as you have one Stamina left in the pool.
... but... isn't Stamina a renewable resource? How do you qualify for the feat in the first place?

Obviously it depends to some extent on which versions of which optional rules are being used, but the two main options appear to be:

(a) Everyone has a stamina pool, or

(b) You get the gateway feat, which give you a stamina pool, which lets you get Combat Expertise without the Int prereq for as long as you have at least one stamina remaining.


I think the real question is: does one still have to burn a feat slot on Combat Expertise, or are you treated as having it once you buy in the feat for Stamina? Are you just treated as having it for the purposes of feat prerequisites, or do you need to still actually take the feat?
What about other feats that maintain the INT prerequisite?

Scarab Sages

master_marshmallow wrote:

I think the real question is: does one still have to burn a feat slot on Combat Expertise, or are you treated as having it once you buy in the feat for Stamina? Are you just treated as having it for the purposes of feat prerequisites, or do you need to still actually take the feat?

What about other feats that maintain the INT prerequisite?

Since it's all optional rules it's going to depend on how they're implemented at your table. I know for some tables it's not an issue because GMs give things like weapon finesse and combat expertise free, due to a dislike of feat taxes (also typically the general hate for combat expertise).

As for PFS, I've got no clue what if any things they'll allow/disallow/implement. Their still holding their tongues about that.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I'm generally of the opinion that you're better off improving Expertise as a feat then just giving it away free.

One of the ways I improved it is synergy with a LOT of other feats.

Expertise synergizes with Weapon Finesse in that if you are using a weapon in one hand the Finesse style, you may add your Expertise bonus to damage with the weapon.

Which is actually usually better then adding Dex to damage, as it lets Strength retain some combat value.

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:
Schadenfreude wrote:
Debilitating injury is on top of the normal sneak attack damage.
Do these stack with the other talents (pressure points offensive defense, etc) that add effects onto sneak attack damage?
Yes they do. Note that since one of the debilitating injuries is basically a better (since it helps the whole team) offensive defense, the Unchained rogue does not also get offensive defense (it isn't listed in Unchained in either a new version or as being unchanged because it became a debilitating injury). But you can totally combine with dispelling strike, crippling strike, and all your favorites!

Awe man! I really wanted to use those together!

Painful Bugger wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Nice thorough list; glad you're taking the time to really look closely at the Unchained rogue and her talents! Many of the categories are opinions, but based on it being listed as "no real change," I would say that you may have missed something on Defensive Roll; I'd look at it again to see if you can spot what!
Well I'll be! I certainly did miss a slight change in language that actually makes this ability amazing!

I'm not seeing it. What's different about it?


Ravingdork wrote:
Painful Bugger wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Nice thorough list; glad you're taking the time to really look closely at the Unchained rogue and her talents! Many of the categories are opinions, but based on it being listed as "no real change," I would say that you may have missed something on Defensive Roll; I'd look at it again to see if you can spot what!
Well I'll be! I certainly did miss a slight change in language that actually makes this ability amazing!
I'm not seeing it. What's different about it?

It's not once per day.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How many times do you expect to die in a day?

I still think it's a lackluster choice, since most attacks capable of killing you likely did so much damage you are unlikely to make the save anyways.


Ravingdork wrote:

How many times do you expect to die in a day?

I still think it's a lackluster choice, since most attacks capable of killing you likely did so much damage you are unlikely to make the save anyways.

[snark]How many times do you expect to stand within full attack range of something CR appropriate as a rogue?[/snark]


You can go full yolo with defensive roll not being once per day. eventually the dc becomes impossible though, I think


Aelryinth wrote:
I'm generally of the opinion that you're better off improving Expertise as a feat then just giving it away free.

Likewise. Combat Expertise does also have the potential to improve existing mechanics rather than introducing a new one.

For example, it can half the penalty to attack rolls while using Defensive Fighting (-4 to -2 to att) whilst keeping the bonus to AC (+2).
Instead, it may increase the AC bonus from Total Defense by +1/+1 per 5 BAB.


So, I will have to extrapolate from some more words from the actual book, but I'm pretty sure a rogue who invests in TWF, Spring Attack, and Feinting of some kind under the new action system can move in, feint, get off two sneak attacks, and move back out all in the same round.

Couple that with these fixes here and I think the rogue gets some pretty strong buffs. Personally, I think it should've gotten full BAB.

How is that hampering move?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How are you getting more than one attack while using Spring Attack?


Ravingdork wrote:
How are you getting more than one attack while using Spring Attack?

Would spring attack not allow one to split the movement of a single act up, otherwise the feat is completely worthless.

In any case, greater feint works now with the system letting you TWF for 4 sneak attacks on a full round.

Plus all the other buffs makes the rogue pretty alright. Still would like to see full BAB.


You're right. Spring Attack becomes the next Prone Shooter if it doesn't allow you to move and attack within the same action.

I could see it working two ways. Either spring attack would take up 2 actions (the boring solution), or it allows you to move-attack-move as a single action. In which case, it could open up new doorways for a HIGHLY mobile fighting style. If you stipulate that you can't attack the same person from the same square twice, then you essentially have someone who darts around the battlefield attacking various people (or attacking the same person from all angles).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I'm sure there's a stamina boost for spring attack.

==Aelryinth

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