Kensai Magus having trouble deciding on Variant Multiclassing from Pathfinder Unchained


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4e multiclassing needed 1 feat (and possibly your paragon path), you usually got a pretty good ability out of it, a skill training, and you also counted as that class for feats.

This is similar, but taking it in the entirely opposite direction. You need 5 feats instead of 1, you don't actually count as that class (can't grab extra rage/hex/etc.), and you don't get any real benefit over just taking a level of the class until after 11 usually.


Does that mean that these variant multiclassing actually count as the class features themselves? If so, could a variant multiclassed Oracle use the "Ring of Revelation" item? Could such a person perhaps take Divine Protection?

It might be expensive, but if it's a way to open up some of the more powerful feats to classes that otherwise wouldn't get them (i.e. Swashbuckler) then it could be something useful.


Eigengrau wrote:

So our group is looking at all the options out of Pathfinder Unchained and it's a pretty great book so far.

I'm on the fence about giving up 5 feats, at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, 19 for secondary class features from the Variant Multiclass rules.

Right now I'm 13th level, 12 Kensai/1 Inspired Blade.
Variant Multiclass options of Alchemist or Wizard seem the best ones so far for my character & playstyle.

Alchemist would give me Mutagens and Bombs as an Alchemist = to my character level. Poison stuff and immunity to it at later levels.

Wizard gives me at 3rd level a familiar, 7th level all the first level powers from a specialized school, 11th level a cantrip as a SLA from my chosen school, 15th level a Wizard bonus feat or Arcane Discovery, and 19th I'd get the 8th level power from my chosen school.

I have Elemental Metamagic now, but choosing Admixture as my school would give me a better option, I'd also gain extra damage on my evocation spells. Familiar is "meh" never really wanted one but it can be a big bonus if I use it right. Cantrip is also "meh". The Wizard Bonus feat or Arcane Discovery is great though. I'm looking hard at Knowledge is Power for that, INT mod to CMD, CMB and on checks to break stuff.

So right off that I'd have to lose 3 feats to gain changing Spell damage type on the fly, +6 damage on Evocation spells, a familiar, and a cantrip SLA. Later I'd lose 2 more feats for the other 2 abilities.

I'm looking at it this way so far: If I could grab a feat that lets me change evocation spells elemental damage on the fly I'd take it. If there was a feat that let me do 1/2 my character level in extra damage on evocations I'd take it. Cantrip no way. Familiar, isn't my cup of tea, but it's not subpar or a feat tax of any kind. I really do want that 15th level ability of getting an Arcane Discovery though.

I'm inclined to do this and would like to hear from anyone on their opinions on the matter.

The ability to get class features over feats is a tricksy thing. Some class features are amazing and totally worth feats, but others... mech. I don't have Unchained yet so I can't really offer an in-depth suggestion yet. (I thought it comes out on the 29th. :/ )


It does come out on the 29th, but subscribers get their PDF's early.


I'll mention this though, if you want to grab VMC Magus for your character, you still have the option of grabbing the Extra Arcana feats. Unlike Witch and Oracle, you can grab extras.


The Magus Subclass might be a nice option for other classes. I'm not sure about the order in which the abilities are gained, but if Arcane Pool is early and scales normally, I will probably select it for some future builds.


Kaouse wrote:

Do the Wizard powers scale with level?

Could put the Kensai back on top of the Initiative order once again if it does. Well, not really, they'd still be only equivalent to a Divine Strategist Cleric with Tactics I guess. Hard to actually beat that initiative, plus the level 20 Foresight power doesn't really stack with the Kensai's Initiative capstone.

Foresight is better really for all the other people who would otherwise be left out of the loop. Admixture seems like a really good idea if you're spamming Shocking Grasp. And who doesn't like Shift? That said, picking up an Arcane Discovery is always a great idea. Time Stutter, Staff-like Wand, all great things to have on a Kensai Magus.

Really though, I see the variant wizard multiclassing working better on an Arcanist. With a familiar, scaling school powers and even access to Arcane Discoveries, it's a fairly powerful choice for an Arcanist, blurring the lines between the two almost even more than the School Savant did.

Yes the Wizard powers you get are equal to your character level.

Time Stutter is pretty awesome itself, I'm leaning more on the Knowledge is Power though, It'll boost my CMD to 50 and my CMB to 29 unbuffed & 36 buffed.


Gisher wrote:
The Magus Subclass might be a nice option for other classes. I'm not sure about the order in which the abilities are gained, but if Arcane Pool is early and scales normally, I will probably select it for some future builds.

3rd Arcane Pool character level -2 is your Magus level for it.

7th level is Magus Arcana, your character level equals your Magus level
11th level Spellstrike
15th Magus Arcana
19th Magus Arcana

Might be great for an Unchained Rogue to get Arcane Deeds from Swashbuckler this way.


Eigengrau wrote:
Gisher wrote:
The Magus Subclass might be a nice option for other classes. I'm not sure about the order in which the abilities are gained, but if Arcane Pool is early and scales normally, I will probably select it for some future builds.

3rd Arcane Pool character level -2 is your Magus level for it.

7th level is Magus Arcana, your character level equals your Magus level
11th level Spellstrike
15th Magus Arcana
19th Magus Arcana

Might be great for an Unchained Rogue to get Arcane Deeds from Swashbuckler this way.

That is so much more useful than the Witch Subclass!

It would be a decent option for several full caster classes.

Or you could make a really nice Eldritch Knight Build with that. Something like

1 level in Inspired Blade Swashbuckler (Magus subclass)
5 levels in Wizard
10 levels in Eldritch Knight
4 levels in Wizard

It would be like a more arcane/less martial Kensai.


You won't be getting Precise Strike until 9th, so... maybe.

If I was building a Rogue that high, definitely. But one-handed Dex is a really weak style, so unless I rolled with TWF and then dropped the second weapon that would be awkward. And you typically want to do the inverse with Dex and TWF; picking up the second weapon when you have the wealth and damage boosters to support it.


Ohoho... The Magus VMC is quite powerful, as I thought it would be.

Arcane Pool + Magus Arcana gives you access to some fairly high level Arcana (Bane Blade, Reflection, etc.). Spellstrike is also a great bonus, though you'd need to already be a gish caster/martial to truly make use of it.

I wonder what the Cleric multiclass is. Besides domains and Channel Energy, there's not really much the Cleric class can give you, but if it allows you to qualify for Versatile Channel and subsequently the Envoy of Balance Prestige class, I'll be happy. Divine Protection on top of that is quite the bonus too.


Kaouse wrote:
I wonder what the Cleric multiclass is. Besides domains and Channel Energy, there's not really much the Cleric class can give you, but if it allows you to qualify for Versatile Channel and subsequently the Envoy of Balance Prestige class, I'll be happy. Divine Protection on top of that is quite the bonus too.

I don't have the book, but the Cleric has pretty much the same amount to give as a wizard.

Probably a weak channel to start, then a domain ability, an at-will orison, a more powerful channel, the higher level domain, etc. Just like the Wizard with school power.


I would spend the feats on stealing stuff from the swashbuckler via arcane deed.

Edit: how did you get signature deed?


GM let me have it. However I've not used it abusively yet on parrying, when/if I do he might take it away. I sometimes forget to announce my intention to parry.


On 2nd thought, I can probably afford to let that feat go, I have 10 Pananche pts., and could dip into my arcane pool if needed for more.


Answering an earlier question, Witch and Oracle don't allow access to the "Extra X" feats because the VMC only grants access to a partially restricted list of hexes/revelations. Most of the really good revelations (i.e. Sidestep Secrets) are not options. For Witches, slumber is nerfed and ice tomb is not allowed. So they also disallowed the Extra feats so you couldn't pick those up, or that's my guess.


Thats probably an accurate guess.

Dark Archive

All I need to know is if Life Link is an option for Oracle Revelations!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Seranov wrote:
All I need to know is if Life Link is an option for Oracle Revelations!

Yes, life link is an option.

Dark Archive

Calth wrote:
Seranov wrote:
All I need to know is if Life Link is an option for Oracle Revelations!
Yes, life link is an option.

Haha! Single classed Oradin here I come!


Kinda side-eyeing how they specifically excluded stuff like Sidestep Secret from VMC. So the ability is totally fine on an Oracle but would be busted on a Swashbuckler?


What about summoner? having a handy meatshield wuld be pretty good for most classes. How does it work with VMC?


In regards to the original question, I think that Admixturer VMC is worthwhile for a magus. A straight damage bonus to your shocking grasps, plus the ability to switch the energy type on the fly is highly beneficial. Cantrip-as-SLA is pretty weak, and I don't know if there's any Arcane Discoveries that a Magus would really want - probably just use the Wizard Bonus Feat for Spell Perfection instead. (Well, Knowledge is Power would be really nice if you're focused more on a manoeuvre than on the typical shocking grasp nova build) As for the 19th level power, well, who really cares about 19th level?


ZanThrax wrote:
In regards to the original question, I think that Admixturer VMC is worthwhile for a magus. A straight damage bonus to your shocking grasps, plus the ability to switch the energy type on the fly is highly beneficial. Cantrip-as-SLA is pretty weak, and I don't know if there's any Arcane Discoveries that a Magus would really want - probably just use the Wizard Bonus Feat for Spell Perfection instead. (Well, Knowledge is Power would be really nice if you're focused more on a manoeuvre than on the typical shocking grasp nova build) As for the 19th level power, well, who really cares about 19th level?

TIME STUTTER!!!!!!


Time Stutter is great and tempting, very tempting.
I was worried about high level encounters and their CMB attacks, thats why I thought about the knowledge is power discovery. I guess I could get a few magic items to help with that though.

Time Sttutter or a wizard feat would probably be best for me, feats & arcanas will be tight with this VMC build.

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