Well, like how you said proteans are probably best at 12 for the new summoner. For high level play, are there any stand outs that come in to their own, basically? Or, do they wane in late game across all eidolon types?
Ah, I see. Having a large advantage at level 12 doesn't mean that you wane in late game (protean is ahead in late game too, just comparatively further ahead in measurable evolutions at 12, assuming that extremely powerful abilities that have no evolution equivalent are worth nothing). For instance, if we made a third summoner (just to illustrate this point through a more extreme example) that got up to 52 evolution points in the pool at 20th level to APG's 26, but you went up from 30 to 44 points between levels 11 and 12 and then gained 1 point per level after that, then it certainly doesn't wane in late game compared to APG summoner (it's always at least double), but level 12 is still comparatively the one with most evos.
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All eidolons have different abilities, so again, it depends what are you looking for. Inevitable are in my opinions, the default tank but if you knew that your campaign was going to be based around lightning and the likes, you could pick an eidolon which gains resistance then immunity to electricity to be a solid tank. Some eidolons get ability scores increase for free, on top of the normal ability score you get for being an eidolon at a certain levels, hell some eidolon even get additional evolution point. If you know it's going to be a campaign against ghosts/undeads, you might consider a psychopomp for some of their abilities, like ghost touch on all their attacks or spirit sense.
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Mark, this may sound trite, but why wasn't the stamina mechanic extended to some viable general feats, instead of just combat feats?
Granted, lots of work done, people would have complained about their favorite general feat getting no love, but...
Feats like Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Fleet, Endurance and the like all BEG for stamina interaction, and realistically there's no reason why Stamina wouldn't affect them.
In so doing, you finally give the fighter some utility love outside combat feats, if these are restricted to him.
Example:
Great Fortitude: You gain +2 to your fortitude save.
If you have at least one stamina point, this bonus is increased by your Armor Training Bonus.
You may spend one stamina point to reroll a failed fortitude save. You may only do this once per source of the save (i.e. once against any/all of a poison that demands multiple saves, once per disease, once per forced march/day, once per spell that entails multiple saves). if you have a non-Stamina pool (ki, rage, panache, etc), you must spend your point from there, instead.
Fleet: You gain +5 bonus to your base speed.
If you have at least 1 stamina point, your bonus is multiplied by your Armor Training level.
If you spend one stamina point, you may Run at x5 speed (instead of x4) for one round. If you spend 4 stamina points, you do not suffer a Dex penalty to AC while you do so.
I mean, seriously, the whole issue of stamina tied in with the ability to work, keep going, and move around makes more sense then it boosting the ability to disarm someone...
==Aelryinth
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I see people talking about how the new Summoner "limits creativity", to which I kinda have to chuckle. The old Summoner didn't encourage creativity. Trying to build for anything other than being a disgusting DPR machine that nobody but you wanted at the table was always too expensive to reasonably do.
I agree that most things were too expensive (with the possible exception of a skill monkey). But I think pro summoner fans saw the potential of the bare bones and felt that opening up more possibilities would be part of the solution by creating fewer dpr monsters, which fed the perception that eidilons were overpowered, and more other interesting stuff.
Basically, if the conversation were that dpr monsters are overpowered rather than all eidilon were overpowered, the conversation might be different.
Instead, again we merely (so it seems not having the book yet) 16 new chassis for less powerful for monsters but nothing for those who hopping for some improvement in some ways in addition to the Nerf.
Imagine a 1st level eidilon that starts with 13 intelligence because of of a archetype (and took a hit to physical stats), took combat expertise and the spent 2 points for a (currently nonexistent) extra feat evolution and got improved feint.
Imagine a bow wielding eidilon which with the right set of evolutions, sucks at hand to hand but is great artillery.
Imagine spell like ability focused eidilon with reasonably priced evolutions.
That's what those of us wishing for more creativity and fewer ways to make yet another, now less powerful for dpr monster were hoping for (along with a revised spell list).
Instead we got more of same, and we're even more tied down creatively.
That's why creativity is part of the conversation, and that, I think, is what we're getting at. We wanted more creative control and I think the fear of the designers was that this would create more ways to break the game. I think, the limited options on how to play an eidilon was part of the problem. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
It's almost as if anecdotal evidence ranges from unreliable to useless when used to judge the actual numbers and statistics behind something happening, especially mixed with an observer's preexisting opinions and the natural occurrence of confirmation bias or something.
What happens at other people's tables is irrelevant to me. I've seen eidolons at MY table ruin the enjoyment for everyone (except the summoner player). Even the "toned down" summoner was disruptive. Given players of Summoner's are capable of enjoying more than 1 class, the best decision for my table was to ban them. The unchained summoner gives my table the chance of playing them again.
If someone else's table has never had a problem with the APG-Summoner it would seem silly to ban it. Like the barbarian. My table has never had an issue with it (we never adopted rage cycling and the "hard math" was anything but). The only problem we had was needing the feat that let's you rage while unconscious. A different houserule (that addresses other problems with dying) fixes that as a side-effect so the new barbarian isn't necessarily needed. As such we likely won't be replacing the CRB barbarian with the unchained one.
Something I see here and there is people saying that if they wanted to play a summoner and the only option was the unchained, that they'd play an Occultist Arcanist. I'm not sure how occultist fits the "customization-ness" that they're complaining has been taken out of the summoner's eidolon.
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Something I see here and there is people saying that if they wanted to play a summoner and the only option was the unchained, that they'd play an Occultist Arcanist. I'm not sure how occultist fits the "customization-ness" that they're complaining has been taken out of the summoner's eidolon.
They are just saying , if I can't get what I want, I will play a conjurer with planar ally. Yeah it is strong, no doubt about it but heh, they can already do that with their unchained summoner and roughly at the same levels, due to arcanist having a delayed level to reach a new tier of power and also limited spells that they can prepare. Summoner didn't lose their abilities to spam summon monster and it always will be one of their strongest tools in their arsenal. So even if you lose your eidolon in one fight...you can just toss as many summon monster as you want during the rest of the day, that's without even counting using a single spell. Black tentacles, Invisibility, Acid Pit, Magic Jar, Evolution Surge(Have a large eidolon? Make it huge!), Enlarge Person etc...
Of course, then you have the other camp of summoner saying, they always hated casting summon monster...so make of it, what you will.
So I was wondering, is the unchained summoner still compatible with the pre-existing summoner archetypes and/or have the archetypes been changed too?
Also if its still compatible how do you think the new summoner rules affect the archetypes with more questionable balancing, i.e. synthesist and master summoner (and also the brood summoner which was rather on the other side of imbalanced)?
So the master summoner is likely to stay problematic. Synthesist being toned down is good to hear.
'As for broodmaster i was kind of thinking/hoping that with there being generally fewer EP but instead a suite of type based abilities that the individual eidolons of the brood would be boosted a little in comparison to a regular single eidolon. But then having to share the evolution pool was one of the smaller problems of the archetype I guess.
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Maybe it is just that I play too much PFS, but who in the world chooses a size huge pet? Given how much time is spent in 5 foot corridors, that means either you never get to use it, or you have to dump a lot of resources into trying to fit a huge size creature into 5 feet. It also means that if it does engage the enemy, no one else can get to the fight
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Maybe it is just that I play too much PFS, but who in the world chooses a size huge pet? Given how much time is spent in 5 foot corridors, that means either you never get to use it, or you have to dump a lot of resources into trying to fit a huge size creature into 5 feet. It also means that if it does engage the enemy, no one else can get to the fight
frankly like i said earlier...its one of these evolutions that is better with the spell evolution surge, when you can use it, you cast the spell and you use it. Sure you could have a permanent eidolon at huge size...but yeah like you mention if your dm is often doing traditional dungeons, moving around can be a problem.
Were there any changes to the Unchained Summoner class skill list?
The APG Summoner only had Handle Animal and UMD as Charisma based class skills.
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Are there gonna be any additional types of eidolon? Like shadow/kyton for the shadow caller archetype, or animal/plant for the wildcaller archetype? Or maybe even a more generic eidolon. What if I don't want to use a specific outsider subtype? I kinda feel forced to use fluff I don't like now...
But to name an example, in my WotW party there's a summoner with a cerberus as his eidolon. All of a sudden he'd change from a quadruped to a biped who is skilled in bluff. (and later diplomacy.) So far, he hasn't been really overpowered so I hope he will not have to change his eidolon, but this really does limit creativity.
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Is it me or are there two wild callers now?
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Are there gonna be any additional types of eidolon? Like shadow/kyton for the shadow caller archetype, or animal/plant for the wildcaller archetype? Or maybe even a more generic eidolon. What if I don't want to use a specific outsider subtype? I kinda feel forced to use fluff I don't like now...
But to name an example, in my WotW party there's a summoner with a cerberus as his eidolon. All of a sudden he'd change from a quadruped to a biped who is skilled in bluff. (and later diplomacy.) So far, he hasn't been really overpowered so I hope he will not have to change his eidolon, but this really does limit creativity.
He can just pick an eidolon type with a quadruped form which would mean either agathion [NG], Daemon [NE], Demon [CE], Elemental [N], or Psychopomp [N]. With the one step alignment restriction, I suppose Daemon [If your summoner is LE] would be your choice or if the summoner is NE, he could have a Daemon, Demon, elemental or Psychopomp.
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Why oh why does Paizo keep insisting on recycling names? It gets damned confusing!
I just hate having to append source references onto my characters sheets whenever they do this.
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Waaahahaha, love the summoner. Last time I played mine (level 7; APG version) I solo'ed the final PFS scenario boss AND minions in a single round (create pit + low CR zombies = dead zombies and 5 attacks from my eidolon w/ 26str). I'm still not sure I can't do that with this, but I like the shift from players being able to dump all EP into offense and a bit more into flavor and defense (most of the type abilities look defensive).
My summoner strikes me as a little more balanced now. I may still have to hold back a bit, but not nearly as badly. I can't spam haste, can't spam snowball for wicked 1st level damage, and can't dimension door the front-liners to say hello to the mages anymore. That plus the stiff competition for third level spell slots makes for some more interesting decision making. The likely-hood that anyone can alpha-strike something appears to have dropped a bit, and unless you min-maxxed the eidolon before (or used pounce) I don't really see much of a change there, save perhaps that I put a LOT more value on EP (and the extra EP feat).
On top of all that, while feel I can't be quite as "unchained" with my interpretation of my Eidolon, there are enough bases and (hopefully) a few more on the way that I won't feel terribly confined. Luckily one of them matched my current Eidolon fairly closel. I just hope my eidolon can be evil as long as I am not when it comes to PFS play.
Thanks Mike~
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Well, that's the problem I think with having so many products written by different teams and various freelancers...and ironically it was actually named that to attempt to not have a name too similar to yet another summoner archetype...only to accidentally give it the name of another archetype.Why oh why does Paizo keep insisting on recycling names? It gets damned confusing!
I just hate having to append source references onto my characters sheets whenever they do this.
That's actually kind of funny. I guess, it kinda remind me of the winter witches.
Winter Witch (Witch Archetype) and Winter Witch (Prestige Class) being a thing.
And if that wasn't confusing enough, Winter Witches in Golarion encompass, Sorcerers, Oracles (Winter Mystery) and Wizards.
Well, that's the problem I think with having so many products written by different teams and various freelancers...and ironically it was actually named that to attempt to not have a name too similar to yet another summoner archetype...only to accidentally give it the name of another archetype.Why oh why does Paizo keep insisting on recycling names? It gets damned confusing!
I just hate having to append source references onto my characters sheets whenever they do this.
That's actually kind of funny. I guess, it kinda remind me of the winter witches.
Winter Witch (Witch Archetype) and Winter Witch (Prestige Class) being a thing.
And if that wasn't confusing enough, Winter Witches in Golarion encompass, Sorcerers, Oracles (Winter Mystery) and Wizards.
There's also the dueling weapon property from the "Pathfinder Society Field Guide", not to be confused with a similar ability of the same name from the "Advanced Player’s Guide" and "Ultimate Equipment".
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Looking over the book and liking it a whole lot. Laying the ground work for writing up an Unchained Summoner guide. But in the meantime, here's my first impressions on the Eidolon subtypes. Capstones will mostly be ignored because so little in-game time is ever spent at 20, if any at all.
As a note: Each instance of the Quad-legged base form starts off with the same base evolutions of four legs and Bite, so any mention of them beyond this would be redundant. If you liked Murderous Pouncebeasts, then you'll have to wait til level 7 and spend pretty much all of your points to make them really dangerous. Just don't expect to achieve APG-level shenanigans ever again.
Agation: The big "Lay on Hands" Eidolon people were talking about can make for a decent emergency healer, or make up for it's relatively low HP through Eidolon's naturally low HD. Decent Resistance/Immunity. The DR/Evil is fun, but there are usually enough high level Evil creatures in the late and mid game that it won't help as often as you'd like. Two great base forms. True Speech has some utility, but I can't see Speak with Animals being much of a game changer.
Angel: Mixed Resistances and Immunities for all four of the main elements make them fairly durable versus magic damage, though like Agations they'll gain a DR that makes you hope the DM likes to send Neutral enemies at you. Free wings is a plus, and after the Pounce nerf it's sole base form (Biped) is arguably the best in the game.
Archon: In my opinion, Skilled is the strongest evolution point-for-point, and it was unchanged from APG. A boost to Intimidate opens up some interesting demoralize options later down the road, and the free Evo point and ability score boost give you about as much flexibility as you can get from a subtype with one (admittedly great) base form. Situational defenses and a slightly restrictive alignment.
Azata: These artisans may be the best combat Eidolons in Unchained. They key here is that they gain the 4 point version of the Weapon Proficiency evolution for free, saving one of your precious few feats and/or a 4 Evo point dump. Who cares if your Biped doesn't have claws if it can have a halbred? As an added bonus, they make the best use out of the Serpentine base form by giving it arms for free, and turning its often seen and rarely useful Tail Slap attack into a single (and therefor primary) attack with a 1.5 Strength Mod. Add a decent range of elemental Resistances/Immunities and Good Eidolon's usual DR/Evil and you've got a solid package that nears certain APG Eidolons in raw, 'fresh out the gate' power.
Daemon: Their fluff makes me thing it's as close as you can get right now if you want to make an Undead Eidolon. It being evil for the DR/Good on a Neutral Summoner is actually a smart, considering the usual foes you'll face in home games and PFS. A free evolution point early on along with access to every base form gives you a lot of options for kitting out your beastie, but it's alignment may clash with some parties. Situational resistance bonuses are situational.
Demon: And I thought the Daemons might cause trouble for parties. As long as your party is okay with it, you can pick up one of these guys give access to every base form. Shame this is the start of Serpentine forms showing up with tail slap hanging on as a weak secondary attack. Other than the usual Evil Outsider range of elemental resistances and DR/Good, they don't have anything exciting going for them. Still, what they have is alright.
Devil: These corrupting charmers get Skilled (Bluff) and Diplomacy follows suit at level 8, making them a candidate for party face. Useful DR/Good and eventual Immunity to the most commonly used elemental damage (Fire) make them durable partners, and See in Darkness is that kind of utility that only matters once or twice in a campaign, but when it does it REALLY does. Biped with claws makes it great from level 1, too!
Div: Thank goodness Eidolons disappear when their masters sleep, otherwise this one would strangle you in your sleep! Their resistances, immunities, and even See in Darkness are almost perfectly copied from Devil types, but they replace the instances of Skilled with a free Evolution point, which is a gain or a loss depending on what you want it to do. Best way to go if you want something that's just plain disturbing in a psychological sense.
Elemental: Best bang for your buck when it comes to getting 'free evolution points' from built-in abilities, you start off with your chosen element as an Immunity. The literal free evolution point is nice, and then you get a thematic movement speed. Air's Flight has the best value, but you'll want to run a different element if you want to be selfish and hog the airtime with Aspect. The usual anatomical immunities (Crit, Stun, etc) kick in later on, giving you an extra edge in the late game.
Inevitable: They hit the ground running with an okay Biped form and a big resistance bonus to saves against a wide variety of physical conditions that you really, really want to make your saves against. And then a bonus on mental conditions that you'd rather not fail. And then some of the Physical resistances become immunities. And then more resistances and immunities. Really nice, but expect to spend a lot of time telling your DM "Wait, hold on a sec. Let me see if I have a resistance to that effect too." Oh, and DR/Chaotic is pretty cool.
Protean: My personal favorite subtype (at least in theme) is a bit of an enigma. It's a creature that flavors itself off of constantly seeking change, but it's limited to one base type. And that type is Serpentine, with a secondary Tail Slap, and stats that favor Dexterity over Strength on a creature that's encouraged to focus on grappling. Still, the "Floating Grab" enhancement opens up interesting options once you have some Evo points to throw around.
One may be tempted to just take Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers to make up the difference between Strength and Dexterity, but if you soldier on until the Large evolution is available it tilts the scale back towards Strength. Very much a "Late Bloomer" type that strains against a leaner Evolution Point pool until you get a few levels under your belt. Multiattack at level 9 helps a ton, too.
As an alternative, you can start off small sized and get an Agile enchanted Amulet as soon as possible, creating a highly effective multiple-weapons beast. Sadly, this means your fun Grab options are pretty much dead space.
Psyhcopomp: Praise Pharasma! Amazing immunities from level 1 and access to every base form only seem like Paizo is front-loading the amazing parts of your magical Shyguy. The momentum keeps up as you get decent resistances, a free evolution point and the situational (but highly appropriate) Spirit's Touch, letting you bust ghosts with the best of them. DR/Adamantine, Spiritsense, free ability score increase, and spammable Invisibility make this one arguably the second best in Unchained, and a runner up for my favorite because of all the awesome roleplay potential. Add in the most user friendly alignment, and this is my personal recommendation for those who want to play a Summoner but can't decide on what to pick as your sidekick.
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.
That's really cool, but unfortunately those evo points end up limiting eidolon concepts. For instance I wanted to make a spider like eidolon, something with webs. Unfortunately I woild need to pick up a non evil form and am locked into serpentine form, then need to buy more limbs, poison, web, a large and huge evo and so on. I had a similar problem attempting to build a dragon eidolon, needing tail slap, wing buffet, a tail, flight, size boosts, breath weapon and so on. I think that it's great that there are some new forms with new abilities, but it is still slightly disappointing that some of these concepts seem to be unavailable.
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There's nothing that restrains the appearance of an eidolon if that is what you want it to do.
For instance, you can simply have your air elemental serpentine eidolon have wings as part of its natural fly evolution. It can't use them as weapons and doesn't even need to beat them, but it can HAVE them.
Likewise, buying legs on a serpent-like form shouldln't be necessary. As long as they have no combat usage, they are just part of appearance, and could simply make it look like a centipede without changing anything.
==Aelryinth
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There's nothing that restrains the appearance of an eidolon if that is what you want it to do.
For instance, you can simply have your air elemental serpentine eidolon have wings as part of its natural fly evolution. It can't use them as weapons and doesn't even need to beat them, but it can HAVE them.
Likewise, buying legs on a serpent-like form shouldln't be necessary. As long as they have no combat usage, they are just part of appearance, and could simply make it look like a centipede without changing anything.
==Aelryinth
I agree. Flavor should be free as long as the player expects no mechanical benefits.
I agree. Flavor should be free as long as the player expects no mechanical benefits.There's nothing that restrains the appearance of an eidolon if that is what you want it to do.
For instance, you can simply have your air elemental serpentine eidolon have wings as part of its natural fly evolution. It can't use them as weapons and doesn't even need to beat them, but it can HAVE them.
Likewise, buying legs on a serpent-like form shouldln't be necessary. As long as they have no combat usage, they are just part of appearance, and could simply make it look like a centipede without changing anything.
==Aelryinth
That said, it is always nice when the printed fluff and the fluff implied by the mechanics can synch up with the fluff that players want.
I know that someone who wants to play a roguish character can use a slayer instead of a rogue, and all the power to them, but from a design perspective it is really stupid that rogues* are worse roguish characters than several other classes.
Likewise, it is really silly that someone who wants a dragon themed eidolon should have to choose an air elemental subtype and say that it's magical wind flight is actually wings (despite not working like wings by RAW) as opposed to choosing the magical-animal-angel subtype (agathion) and slapping actual mechanically functional wings on it.
*old rogue, at least. Dunno about the new one.
There's nothing that restrains the appearance of an eidolon if that is what you want it to do.
For instance, you can simply have your air elemental serpentine eidolon have wings as part of its natural fly evolution. It can't use them as weapons and doesn't even need to beat them, but it can HAVE them.
Likewise, buying legs on a serpent-like form shouldln't be necessary. As long as they have no combat usage, they are just part of appearance, and could simply make it look like a centipede without changing anything.
==Aelryinth
Yeah but as you said, wing buffet etc is off the table if you only "imagine" the wings. Yes, you can flavor your eidolon having abilities that it actually doesn't, but it does not address the issue of many concepts requiring specific base forms and a certain number of evolution points to achieve. Don't get me wrong, the old summoner was horrible and had tons of issues, it's just saddening that the perception (whether correct or not) that people only built optimised DPR pouncing machines has now resulted in some of that previous freedom or creativity being taken away to prevent abuse.
I agree. Flavor should be free as long as the player expects no mechanical benefits.There's nothing that restrains the appearance of an eidolon if that is what you want it to do.
For instance, you can simply have your air elemental serpentine eidolon have wings as part of its natural fly evolution. It can't use them as weapons and doesn't even need to beat them, but it can HAVE them.
Likewise, buying legs on a serpent-like form shouldln't be necessary. As long as they have no combat usage, they are just part of appearance, and could simply make it look like a centipede without changing anything.
==Aelryinth
That said, it is always nice when the printed fluff and the fluff implied by the mechanics can synch up with the fluff that players want.
I know that someone who wants to play a roguish character can use a slayer instead of a rogue, and all the power to them, but from a design perspective it is really stupid that rogues* are worse roguish characters than several other classes.
Likewise, it is really silly that someone who wants a dragon themed eidolon should have to choose an air elemental subtype and say that it's magical wind flight is actually wings (despite not working like wings by RAW) as opposed to choosing the magical-animal-angel subtype (agathion) and slapping actual mechanically functional wings on it.
*old rogue, at least. Dunno about the new one.
I agree, but I dont think the devs knew of a way to keep customization up while keeping the power level down.
If guess a GM could allow you to use the normal eidolon base forms, and if he is worried about power give you less evolution points to use.
Contributor
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Is it me or are there two wild callers now?
Thanks to Heroes of the Wild, there are also two Favored Terrain rogue talents and two ultra-similar feats (Favored Enemy Spellcasting/Foebane Magic). The latter are at least a little mechanically different, but... I think they need someone to be the System Options Expert.
Maybe it is just that I play too much PFS, but who in the world chooses a size huge pet? Given how much time is spent in 5 foot corridors, that means either you never get to use it, or you have to dump a lot of resources into trying to fit a huge size creature into 5 feet. It also means that if it does engage the enemy, no one else can get to the fightfrankly like i said earlier...its one of these evolutions that is better with the spell evolution surge, when you can use it, you cast the spell and you use it. Sure you could have a permanent eidolon at huge size...but yeah like you mention if your dm is often doing traditional dungeons, moving around can be a problem.
You can use Evolution Surge to make an eidolon Large but not Huge.
A Huge eidolon is a much better option when you have the Evolutionist archetype and can reconfigure your eidolon once per day -- so you can change the eidolon's size when it becomes inconvenient.
I think PFS generally cuts off before you can get a Huge eidolon, doesn't it?
I'm liking what I have read so far about the unchained summoner. I think I can see myself playing one.
Yeah, I wanted an air elemental eidolon in the shape of a dragon that could bash people with his wings.
IMPOSSIBLE to do as the rules stand now.
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Stops lecturing mid sentence.
*jaw drop*
...That's...actually a good idea.
inconvenient.
I think PFS generally cuts off before you can get a Huge eidolon, doesn't it?
Not entirely. PFS continues on beyond level 12 but that depends on sanctioned APs for the most part.
Also, a Summoner can cast Enlarge Person on a Large Eidolon.
Yes, but that is not a particularly good idea -- the minuscule strength bonus you get from the Enlarge Person spell do not make up for your size penalties. An eidolon with the Large/Huge evolution gets strength and natural armor bonuses that more than make up for the associated size and dexterity penalties.
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I can't stand the fact that if my 20th-level unchained summoner makes his eidolon huge, and increases a single ability score by 2 points, he only has 1 evolution point left over.
They cut the evolution points in half, but didn't adjust the evolution prices at all.
That means every single huge eidolon is going to be DAMN BORING. Large ones too.
Well, the whole point of cuting the evolution points by half, was to reduce the numer of evolutions. If they also cut the costs by half, there's no point in changing it
I think part of my negative reaction to the unchained summoner is that there were real problems with the APG summoner that everyone can agree on, and then there were problems that some people had with it and problems some other people had with it. Both sides here can, in all fairness, consider the other side's problems silly; specifically, some people (like me) who cannot understand why there would be an issue with players exploiting summoner spell levels - to me, as a GM who regularly does this, I wouldn't even listen to the argument. The answer is "no", unequivocally, because unless a summoner in the party itself made that wand, they will not find it on the market. Wands always use the wiz/sorc, cleric, etc. "in that order" for a reason.
At the same time, the other group is looking at people complaining about the lack of creativity and the crippling of the eidolon and having the same nonplussed reaction of "how can you complain about lack of creativity? just be more creative with a little structure!" and are just as boggled at me as I am at them for the summoner spell list quibble.
My frustration comes in because I had hoped that the Unchained summoner would address the issues that people who like the APG summoner still have with it, while at the same time helping the summoner see more play and be rebalanced across the board in a way that offers everybody something they want. I genuinely want to like the outsiders listed and the bonus abilities they get, but the same problem of players not having enough creative control over their own eidolon, not being able to dump the summon monster SLA that is so controversial anyways, and not having enough evolution points to cover some still-overpriced evolutions are all still there. I mean I guess the Unchained did a good job of getting people who thought the APG summoner was too powerful to consider playing it, but it doesn't seem (to me) to offer much to the other problems people had with the APG summoner.
Well then there's the problem of having to have certain alignments for certain base forms, though that trouble is mostly tied to quadruped. Having to be withing 1 step of your Eidolons Alignment is annoying, like a arcane casting cleric. Though I suppose the Synthesist gets around this with their eidolon not actually possessing a mind.
unlimited flexibility in builds has always been a catch-all for relentless optimization. So, that's why paths and pre-reqs exist.
The idea of templates puts a damper on unlimited ideas, sure...but flavor is easy enough to use in most cases. if that hits the power curve...that's a feature, not a bug.
==Aelryinth
Well then there's the problem of having to have certain alignments for certain base forms, though that trouble is mostly tied to quadruped. Having to be withing 1 step of your Eidolons Alignment is annoying, like a arcane casting cleric. Though I suppose the Synthesist gets around this with their eidolon not actually possessing a mind.
To me, it's less annoying than monks or barbarians and their alignment issues. At least with eidolon's it makes sense. But still, just use the removing alignment option or ask your GM to ignore the restriction.
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I mean I guess the Unchained did a good job of getting people who thought the APG summoner was too powerful to consider playing it, but it doesn't seem (to me) to offer much to the other problems people had with the APG summoner.
Pretty sure, lowering the power didn't inspire too many to play it, but made them willing to let others play it. "I don't like their fun" so to speak.
Example,1) people upset that they can summon so many times as a SLA (was unchanged).
2) Neat spell list with SM4 instead of SM 3 as a 3rd level spell (9th level chassis fit into a 6th level list).
Sure, someone will play it not that it is weaker, but rarely is it only because it was made weaker.
Most people would have loved the archetype eidolons without the spell list change or lowering Evolution point reduced.
Heck, why not lower preqs and lower points. Why lower points but keep high preqs so many things.
Based upon what I recall hearing about the alignments and why they went with one step, I think a fair compromise is that you cannot have an eidolon that has an opposing axis, so if you are Whatever Chaotic then you can't take any lawful eidlons, but if you're LG, you could take LG, NG, NL, and TN, thus allowing LG to finally get an Eidolon Mount.
I noticed something strange re-reading the first two pages of this thread. The Agathion Eidolons don't use the nerfs Lay on Hands actual Agathions have.
For those unaware, Agathions used to have Lay on Hands as a paladin of equal hit dice/level, been when people started using the Silvanshee as familiars and getting Lay on Hands like that(remember, Familiars use their master's level for HD related things) they changed it. It's late and I'm not looking them up, but I'm still reasonably sure it wasn't just the Silvanshee nerfed(Which wouldn't make since and, since it wouldn't, means it likely was considering the terribly heavy handedness of FAQ and Errata lately).
I wonder if that was intentional for the Eidolons.