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Eludecia, the Succubus Paladin
In worlds where magic is common, powerful wizards sometimes use their dweomers to warp and change creatures for their own purposes. However, even more profound changes sometimes stem from the natural forces in the multiverse. One of those forces is love, and love somehow found the succubus known as Eludecia.
She does not talk about what happened, but during one of her many quests to tempt souls and bring them to the Abyss, she met a beautiful angel, and something unimaginable happened -- she fell in love. Eludecia fought against the unfamiliar emotion for a long time but finally realized that she could not win. So she sought out the angel and confessed her feelings for him, though she did not understand them.
When Eludecia asked for help in redeeming herself, the angel was only too happy to accommodate her. After all, the succubus was extremely beautiful, and he could not help but be attracted to her. Furthermore, the accomplishment of redeeming a demon would certainly make him well known in the angelic hierarchy and advance him in his master's service.
Redemption sometimes comes in a flash, but more often it takes years and years of painful work -- and so it was in this case. Born to evil, Eludecia found it hard even to understand goodness, let alone embrace it. However, she persevered until she finally achieved a shaky redemption. She then dedicated herself fully to the cause of good and took on the mantle of paladin, although no deity was willing to be her special patron.
Eludecia knows that she can never purge herself completely of her evil nature without magical aid, but for now, she shuns such help because she is determined to "make it on her own." Thus, she must fight each and every day to avoid slipping back into her evil ways. Thus far, she has succeeded admirably.
Combat
Succubi are not built for the battlefield, and Eludecia is still nervous about getting into fights, even with her paladin training. She is a fairly good combatant, however, and can be more aggressive than she realizes. This aggression hides her continual worry that she will someday slip off the pedestal of goodness and return to the evil that she now despises.
Eludecia refuses to be deceitful with most creatures, though she deceives evil outsiders without a second thought. She knows that they would have no scruples about tricking her, so she has none about returning the favor. Otherwise, she uses deception only for good ends and never to save her own life.
Other levels for the NPC can be found here.
Eludecia (18th Level)
At this level, Eludecia still prefers not to fight if she can neutralize an opponent by some other means, but as her power has grown, so has her confidence.
Eludecia: Female succubus paladin 12; CR 16; Medium outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar, tanar'ri); HD 6d8+12 plus 12d10+24; hp 133; Init +2; Spd 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (average); AC 32, touch 14, flat-footed 30; Base Atk +18; Grp +25; Atk +25 melee (1d6+7, claw) or +26 (1d10+12/x3, +2 holy adamantine glaive) or +25 melee (2d6+11/19-20, +1 holy cold iron greatsword) or +21 ranged (1d8+5/x3, +1 evil outsiders bane composite longbow [+4 Str bonus]); Full Atk +25 melee (1d6+7, 2 claws) or +27/+22/+17/+12 (1d10+12/x3,+2 holy adamantine glaive) or +26/+21/+16/+11 melee (2d6+11/19-20, +1 holy cold iron greatsword) or +21/+16/+11/+6 ranged (1d8+5/x3, +1 evil outsiders bane composite longbow [+4 Str bonus]); SA energy drain, smite evil 3/day, spell-like abilities, summon tanar'ri, turn undead 14/day (+13, 2d6+19, 9th); SQ aura of courage, aura of good, damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., detect evil, divine grace, divine health, immunities (electricity, poison), lay on hands 132/day, remove disease 3/week, resistances (acid 10, cold 10, fire 10), special mount, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft., tongues; AL LG; SV Fort +26, Ref +22, Will +22; Str 24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 32.
Skills and Feats: Bluff +20, Concentration +19, Diplomacy +24, Disguise +20, Escape Artist +11, Hide +11, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (religion) +11, Knowledge (the planes) +12, Listen +19, Move Silently +11, Ride +23, Search +12, Sense Motive +18, Spot +19; Divine Might (CW), Divine Shield (CW), Dodge, Elusive Target (CW), Improved Buckler Defense, Mobility, Power Attack.
Languages: Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic.
Energy Drain (Su): Eludecia can drain energy (Will DC 24) from any mortal she lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. But because she now believes this ability is evil, she no longer uses it.
Smite Evil (Su): Three times per day, Eludecia may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds +11 to her attack roll and deals an extra +12 points of damage.
Spell-Like Abilities: At will -- charm monster (DC 25), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 23), ethereal jaunt(self plus 50 pounds of objects only), polymorph (humanoid form only, no limit on duration), suggestion (DC 24), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 12th.
Summon Tanar'ri (Sp): Once per day, Eludecia can attempt to summon one vrock. As long as she remains good-aligned, however, no vrock will answer her summons. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.
Detect Evil (Sp): Eludecia can use detect evil at will as the spell (caster level 12th).
Divine Health (Ex): Immunity to disease.
Special Mount (Sp): Once per day for up to 24 hours, Eludecia can call upon her mount as a full-round action.
Tongues (Su): Eludecia has a permanent tongues ability (as the spell, caster level 12th).
Paladin Spells Prepared (caster level 6th): 1st -- bless weapon, cure light wounds; 2nd -- bull's strength, eagle's splendor; 3rd -- cure moderate wounds.
Equipment:+2 mithral breastplate, +1 moderate fortification buckler, +2 holy adamantine glaive,+1 holy cold iron greatsword,+1 evil outsiders bane composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) with 40 arrows, ring of protection +2,belt of giant strength +4,cloak of Charisma +2,boots of speed.
Notes: While wielding her +2 holy glaive or +1 holy cold iron geatsword, Eludecia suffers one negative level: -1 on all skill and ability checks, -1 on attack rolls and saving throws, -5 hit points, and -1 effective level (whenever her level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one).
Tactics: As a 12th-level paladin, Eludecia still takes advantage of the protection afforded by her Divine Shield, which now adds +11 to her AC, but she also uses Divine Might to add +11 to her damage rolls. Since she can turn undead fourteen times a day, she seeks opportunities to shield others from harm with that ability. She still prefers to melee her foes, making as much use of Power Attack as possible.
What about this? Are you asking someone to change the numbers in here to Pathfinder?
Keep in mind PF Succubi are 8 HD, not 6...so, are you going to take away 2 paladin levels, or keep them?
Holy items only take levels from Evil creatures, not those with the Evil subtype, an error in the original stat block.
She also has a really bad gear selection. Her base succubi stats are also way different then 3.5.
If you want a high level paladin-stat succubus, the Paizo module that takes place on the moon features the anti-paladin queen of the planet, who, I believe, is a 12th level anti-paladin.
==Aelryinth
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Wrath of the righteous also has a redeemed succubus. Also the way pathfinder does CR is different.
Succubus are considered combat roles monsters, so adding levels of Paladin increase the CR by 1 for each level. So 12 levels of paladin is a CR 19 succubus. Same as the one in the Moonscare module.
Of course there is nothing wrong in increasing her CR but just saying by pathfinder rules, she isn't CR 16.
Holy items only take levels from Evil creatures, not those with the Evil subtype, an error in the original stat block.
Yes, but creatures with the Evil subtype are affected as if they had an Evil alignment.
This subtype is usually applied to Outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil Outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned.
Appendix 2 from the bestiary, Adding Class Levels lists the process as 3 steps:
1) Determine Role: Not strictly relevant, since we're adding paladin levels which aren't key for any role. If you care, the PRD tags them as Combat.
2) Add Class Levels: Apply +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 modifiers to ability scores, and make adjustments from new class levels.
3) Determine CR: A class level that stacks with existing abilities and role increases CR by 1. Non-key classes increase CR by 1 for every 2 class levels, until they have as many class levels as their original CR. NPC levels are never key, no matter how many you have.
Succubi have the Combat role, meaning paladin levels aren't key for them. The first 7 levels of paladin only increase CR by 1/2, while each additional level past that increases CR by 1. Thus, a succubus (a CR 7 creature) with 12 paladin levels increases their CR by 3 for the first 7 levels to 10, then by 5 to 15 for the next 5.
Of course, these are guidelines and you'll want to compare the end result to PCs and appropriate challenges of its CR to see if it's accurate. I'll put together a possible end result next.
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I understand fulling that there will be differences, as this is taken from D&D not Pathfinder. I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to fix many of the differences and errors, though of note is that she will be Lawful Good by fluff if such an alignment is a tentative thing given the nature of succubus.
My thoughts is that she would have Sarenrae as her deity, since she is all about redemption and unlike that of the D&D pantheon could very likely given Eludecia a chance to prove herself.
In the morning I will look up the succubus and edit some of the above.
What feats, skills, and equipment would any of you suggest?
saying Paladin levels aren't part of the Combat role? Especially for a succubus with a monster Charisma?
Sorry, full CR, baby. Succubi in Pathfinder are much better at fighting then in 3.5.
A PF Succubus has 8 d10 racial hit dice.
Good saves for Reflex and Will.
Racial adjustments: (or just use the base stats)
+2 Str.
+6 Dex
+10 Con
+8 Int
+4 Wis
+16 Charisma.
I'm assuming the base build would be +4 Str, +4 Cha, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +0 Int, -2 Wis. Note that Wis was needed in 3.5 for casting, but not in PF.
For Paladin levels, I'm assuming you put into Str, so 12 levels for Str +3.
Final Result would be: Str: 20 Dex: 19 Con: 22 Int: 18 Wis: 12 Cha: 30
Don't make her carry a holy sword. Use Sword Bond for that if need be. A straight up +3 Sword Evil Outsider Bane weapon will handle all the DR punching on Fiends. If it's both melee and throwing eligible, that's a plus.
A +1 Bow she can enhance with Sword Bond would serve as ranged punch otherwise.
If you buy her a Dex booster, Mithral BP will not have a high enough Dex mod for her. She'll need Celestial armor to get the full advantage of her Dex. Or, she could take that Charisma to AC feat and just get some Bracers +5 or something while she goes around armored as much as classic Wonder Woman.
Fly 50' means no need to invest in flying stuff for your melee. Yay!
All her saves are at +10. her Succubus saves are F:+2, R: +6 W: +6. Her Paladin saves will be F: +8 R: +4 W: +8. Combined with her Cha bonus, final saves are:
Fortitude: +20
Reflex: +20
Will: +24
before you apply a Cloak of Resistance or other ability modifiers.
Her BAB is +18 base.
PC Wealth or NPC wealth? She should at the minimum have Str/Dex/Con/Cha boosters at +2, and +4 to +6 would be more appropriate.
She can Detect Good, Detect Evil at will, has constant Tongues. Perfect diplomat, able to see into the hearts of all before her...
She can Teleport w/o Error at will. Holy maneuverability, Batman. Definitely invest in Dimensional Agility so she can attack coming off a teleport!
She's immune to electricity, fire, and poison. Paladin makes her immune to disease and to fear. Lesser resistance to cold and acid. She's also immune to Charms and Compulsions, which makes her a perfect anti-succubus paladin...
She can go ethereal at will. She should continue to invest in stealth ranks if possible.
Drop the Weapon Finesse feat for Power Attack. She's a combatant now, and her Str score is higher then her Dex.
Agile Manuvers is likewise unnecessary. I would grab an extra Mercy or LOH to CHannel feat.
She has no feats that operate off AoO, so drop Combat Reflexes. I heartily suggest Unsanctioned Knowledge as a feat. She may only be a 9th level caster, but that allows Barkskin at +4, among other things.
The key thing with a paladin succubus is her Profane Gift. +2 to a stat, but most tellingly, she can communicate telepathically with a mark bearer over any distance.
That means this succubus can have an information network of LG knightly types that extend across worlds, and can reach anywhere on a planet in a second if they need help.
That's utterly incredible what it could do for organizing against a common foe. She could literally have knights and allies scattered across the world and keep in contact with them easily. "Knights kissed by the sun" takes on a whole new meaning.
Telepathy 100' means she can coordinate and command in the brightest day, darkest night, or most pitched middle of combat without fail.
+8 Racial modifiers to Bluff and Perception means she should at least be maxing the latter. Note that keeping up with BLuff helps her with her Alter Self disguise ability. As an outsider, all skills are class skills, too.
I can see her as the absolute foil of the nascent demon lord serving Nocticula in the Abyss, who might once have been an angel of Saranrae.
DR/10 Cold Iron or Good means she has extremely solid defenses against evil enemies.
+7 natural AC. She's going to be untouchable in melee.
Her ability to Vampiric Touch her enemies means she's going to be even more redoubtable in melee then a normal paladin, since it's an at-will she can just keep using.
Her massive constitution score gives her a ton of hit points, especially if she has PC wealth and enhances it. 18d10 +108 = 207 HP, before a Con belt or Tome.
Her SPell Resistance as a CR 18 would be 28.
Her succubi summon ability should be changed to a LG outsider like a hound archon if she's considered Redeemed.
lay ON Hands is base 16/day, for 6d6 per.
She has the Aura of Justice and can give away Smites.
She can Smite 4 t/day and has 4 mercies.
For an archetype, might I suggest Hospitalar? It takes her Smites down to 2/day, but she gains 13 uses of Channel/day, maximizing the power of her Charisma score. This leaves room for, say, Ultimate Mercy to raise the fallen, as she can just use Channel to heal others instead. Selective Channeling is also an option here.
If she takes Oath of Vengeance, she becomes a martial nightmare with potentially +8 Smites per day, and a few extra spells. Ouch!
If she could stack her innate spellcaster levels with her Paladin casting that would be awesome, but unlikely. It's also sad that all those bonus spells from massive Cha are going to waste (Note: She's 1 paladin level from 4th level spells, and has bonus spells of 3/3/2 to add to her base of 2/2/1.
Side Note: If you're going the Saranrae paladin route, the Dervish style of combat with a scimitar is stylistically good, and advances to her Str score should instead go to Dex, keeping Weapon Finesse and dropping Combat Reflexes for Power Attack.
This would change her base Str to 15, and her Dex to a very impressive 24 before magic gear. Celestial Mail or Bracers becomes almost a necessity. Note that simply by casting Barkskin, she would have an AC of 28 before any armor or deflection bonuses. As a monster, she might be eligible for the feat that allows Cha as a deflection bonus to AC all the time, so potentially stack +10 on top of that...
==Aelryinth
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saying Paladin levels aren't part of the Combat role? Especially for a succubus with a monster Charisma?
Sorry, full CR, baby. Succubi in Pathfinder are much better at fighting then in 3.5.
Check your bestiary and the PRD. I'll wait. SR doesn't scale, by the way, and Dimensional Agility would be an illegal feat selection (and not very useful, as greater teleport doesn't deprive you of any actions anyway).
I whipped up a first draft of a Pathfinder version of Eludecia. Her offense is not particularly impressive unless she's smiting, or using buffs/divine weapon, but she's extremely durable (her saves in particular are amazing) and she can do some solid damage when she has time to rev up before hand. If given PC wealth and thus boosted to CR 16 she'd gain dramatically in offensive power due to having more resources to spend on gear and ability score boosters.
Her best offensive attack routine if for some reason she managed to have Divine Bond, Smite, Divine Favor, and Blade Tutor's Spirit active while power attacking and hasted would be +41/+41/+36/+31/+26 (2d6+46/19-20). So, fairly close to what a 16th level paladin or 15th level PC paladin would be able to accomplish. She's also capable of fighting defensively for a +13 bonus to AC if necessary, burning 10 uses of Lay On Hands to raise someone from the dead, and shouting battle cries as a swift action to bolster her allies. Note that she's carrying about 40 pounds of gear, and can only carry 50 pounds of equipment with her when she teleports.
XP 51,200
Succubus Paladin 12
LG Medium outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect good; Perception +34
Aura courage (10 ft.), justice (10 ft.), resolve (10 ft.)
AC 36, touch 18, flat-footed 31 (+8 armor, +4 Dex, +1 dodge, +10 natural, +2 deflection, +1 luck)
hp 202 (20d10+92)
Fort +26, Ref +26, Will +29
Defensive Abilities divine grace +10; DR 10/cold iron or good; Immune electricity, fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10; SR 18
Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (average)
Melee +1 cold iron greatsword +27/+22/+17/+12 (2d6+10/19-20)
or +1 lucerne hammer +27/+22/+17/+12 (1d12+10)
or +1 adaptive composite longbow +25/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+7/x3)
or 2 claws +26 (1d6+6)
Special Attacks energy drain, profane gift, smite evil (4/day, +10 attack and AC, +12 damage)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th)
Constant- detect good, tongues
At will- charm monster (DC 24), detect evil, detect thoughts (DC 22), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), suggestion (DC 23), greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), vampiric touch
1/day- dominate person (DC 25), summon (level 3, 1 babau 50%)
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 11th)
3rd- magic vestment (Unsanctioned Knowledge), blade of bright victory, magic circle against evil
2nd- bestow grace, blade tutor's spirit, litany of righteousnessx2, resist energy
1st- bless weapon, divine favorx2, grace, touch of truthtelling (DC 21)
Str 22, Dex 19, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 31
Base Atk +20; CMB +26; CMD 40
Feats Additional Traits (Magical Knack, Dangerously Curious), Adept Champion, Battle Cry, Craft Wondrous Item, Dodge, Greater Mercy, Osyluth Guile, Power Attack, Ultimate Mercy, Unsanctioned Knowledge
Skills Acrobatics +7, Bluff +26, Diplomacy +33, Disguise +21, Fly +21, Heal +10, Intimidate +27, Knowledge (local) +12, Knowledge (planes) +17, Knowledge (religion) +17, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +20, Stealth +14, Use Magic Device +19; Racial Modifiers +8 Bluff, +8 Perception
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic; tongues, telepathy 100 ft.
SQ aura of good, Change Shape (alter self, Small or Medium humanoid), channel positive energy (DC 26, 6d6), divine bond (+3 weapon, 2/day), lay on hands (16/day, 6d6), mercies (sickened, fatigued, nauseated, stunned)
Gear 45,000 gp worth of equipment (as a 15th level heroic NPC): mithral breastplate (+2 from magic vestment each day), +1 lucerne hammer, +1 cold iron greatsword, +1 adaptive composite longbow, masterwork spiked gauntlet, +2 belt of giant strength, +2 cloak of resistance, +3 amulet of natural armor, +2 ring of protection, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, boots of speed, quick runner's shirt, 3380 gp of consumables and treasure
Check your bestiary and the PRD. I'll wait.saying Paladin levels aren't part of the Combat role? Especially for a succubus with a monster Charisma?
Sorry, full CR, baby. Succubi in Pathfinder are much better at fighting then in 3.5.
Get some common sense. I'll wait.
As for the alignment, check out WotR. Arueshelae or whatever lost the evil subtype when she stopped being evil.
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Check your bestiary and the PRD. I'll wait.saying Paladin levels aren't part of the Combat role? Especially for a succubus with a monster Charisma?
Sorry, full CR, baby. Succubi in Pathfinder are much better at fighting then in 3.5.
Get some common sense. I'll wait.
As for the alignment, check out WotR. Arueshelae or whatever lost the evil subtype when she stopped being evil.
Of course, these are guidelines and you'll want to compare the end result to PCs and appropriate challenges of its CR to see if it's accurate.
Why did you boost Wis and Lower Con? She's a paladin, doesn't need wis, but she is a Melee combatant, she needs Con. I don't think she needs Iron Will, either.
Unsanctioned Knowledge gets you an extra spell for every level you can cast. Barkskin to capitalize on her +7 Nat AC should be one of them.
Monsters don't have Traits.
UMD is an excellent skill to pick up, and all skills are class skills if chosen as part of their 4 'choices'. We call that dumping and retraining, if need be.
No quick runner's shirt, it's a controversial item.
Paladin's are not casters, they are a combat class. She's CR 20. She's far deadlier with paladin levels then Fighter, barb, or ranger levels, and trying to argue otherwise is going to make me laugh. +16 base Charisma, baby!
Spell Resistance is generally 10+ CR or HD. She's CR 20, ergo, 30.
==Aelryinth
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Like they even say in the bestiary, those are general guidelines and require careful consideration, the fact that SR doesn't stack doesn't mean anything.
That would be like saying: Pit fiends are combat monster, adding fighter levels, don't increase the spell like abilities of the pit fiend, so it shouldn't increase his cr by one for each fighter levels.
I mean, I'm willing to stretch some explanations pretty far, but a succubus definitely get a nice boost from taking levels of paladin, just divine grace, smite evil and the spells being charisma based are more than enough to sync well with a succubus. Same reason they gave full CR+1 level increase to Izmiara the Insatiable queen (Succubus antipaladin 12, CR 19 from the Moonscar module).
Because she's got plenty of hitpoints and survivability, and not biffing will saves and making perception checks is generally more important, especially since dying by hitpoint loss is uncommon for combatants (death by failed save happens way more often) and paladins get plenty of self healing.
I only picked one spell for Unsanctioned Knowledge. Barkskin would be another good option, but I put this together in like 15 minutes on a break. EDIT: What am I talking about? Barkskin is not a legal option for Unsanctioned Knowledge. I shouldn't have taken that at face value.
Additional Traits has no prerequisites.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Bull. It's a common item.
Paladins have no key role. Seriously dude, crack open your bestiary.
Seriously, dude, crack open the bestiary and read the part about general guidelines and careful consideration.
Then consider her as a Fighter/12 vs a Paladin/12, and tell me which is more dangerous.
The Paladin taking advantage of that monster charisma is LESS dangerous? With monster smites, LOH, boosts to spells, saves? Key levels are guideline levels. Sure, paladin levels suck on a Cha 10 hill giant. But a Cha 27 succubus?
Uh, right. You're outright saying Fighter levels are more dangerous then Paladin levels for a Cha-boosted creature.
Nobody here agrees with you.
Quickrunner's shirt is a PUBLISHED item. That doesn't mean it's common or even supported. You're probably best sticking to core items instead of controversial ones.
Pick any 4 skills for the outsider as class skills. That's ANY SKILL. Thanks.
Barkskin is the level 2 spell in the plant domain list for clerics. If domain spells are not eligible, then you have a point.
She's got +24 to her Will save before Wisdom and Iron Will and Resistance modifiers. Add in a +3 cloak and 12 Wis and Iron Will and she's at +30. Will saves are not going to be an issue for her. Anotehr 40 HP, on the other hand, is extremely useful for a main line combatant.
==Aelryinth
The Fighter is less dangerous. There are very few comparisons where Fighter is a /better/ class to take than virtually anything else.
Succubi have Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, and Knowledge (local) tagged as class skills. Individual succubi don't change that. And a standard pool + 4 is not the same thing as every outsider has all skills as class skills, which is what your post said before you edited it in response to mine.
I've quoted myself once before, I'll do it again:
Of course, these are guidelines and you'll want to compare the end result to PCs and appropriate challenges of its CR to see if it's accurate.
From my perspective it seems pretty appropriate as a CR 15 challenge, if a little high on the power scale (as a martial, gods no it's not as good as a 12th level sorceress or wizard succubus, and much less so than a 15th or 16th level full caster). You may find that to be untrue. The bestiary determines the CR as 15, and you're free to change that.
The exact same build as an anti paladin is cr 19, published by Paizo and probably using this very build from 3.5 as a guideline (the levels are identical).
It's considerably stronger then a 12th level sorceress, who will not have the higher level spells, will have a gimped caster level, and basically only has the advantage of high saves. Note that the caster level of a succubus is already 12 as a default for her spell likes...all sorc levels give is more spells and ONE higher spell level. Wahoo. It'll be a pain to save against them, sure, but comparing the power of a suc sorc/12 to a non-demon sorc/19 is going to be laughable. she'll get ROFL stomped.
As a matter of fact, there's a succubus transmuter/13 in Wrath of the Righteous, and she's only CR 17.
Clearly, you are wrong in your perspective. If anything, the succubus paladin is stronger then the anti-paladin, because evil creatures aren't going to be able to easily get past her DR.
We can most certainly change individual NPC succubi if we like, because a paladin succubus is waaaaaaay off theme and inappropriate. So, we do so! I think UMD instead of Knowledge (local) and/or Intimidate is very much on target, and Disguise is completely optional for a succubus paladin...but useful, especially with Alter Self!
And thanks, but I edited it when I went and looked at the outsider skill list and saw it had changed since 3.5. Dragons get all skills now, alone. Saying we can't change theme skills for a paladin succubus while we make up a unique NPC makes me laugh.
==Aelryinth
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I whipped up a first draft of a Pathfinder version of Eludecia. Her offense is not particularly impressive unless she's smiting, or using buffs/divine weapon, but she's extremely durable (her saves in particular are amazing) and she can do some solid damage when she has time to rev up before hand. If given PC wealth and thus boosted to CR 16 she'd gain dramatically in offensive power due to having more resources to spend on gear and ability score boosters.
Her best offensive attack routine if for some reason she managed to have Divine Bond, Smite, Divine Favor, and Blade Tutor's Spirit active while power attacking and hasted would be +41/+41/+36/+31/+26 (2d6+46/19-20). So, fairly close to what a 16th level paladin or 15th level PC paladin would be able to accomplish. She's also capable of fighting defensively for a +13 bonus to AC if necessary, burning 10 uses of Lay On Hands to raise someone from the dead, and shouting battle cries as a swift action to bolster her allies. Note that she's carrying about 40 pounds of gear, and can only carry 50 pounds of equipment with her when she teleports.
Looks great. I like it. :)
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Honestly I would love one day to play an Incubus Paladin, it would be a real hoot to play.
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Honestly I would love one day to play an Incubus Paladin, it would be a real hoot to play.
I'm playing an incubus anti-paladin. It's pretty rad, so I imagine an incubus paladin would be at least as rad.
Paizo already judged it to be CR 19. What's the controversy?
The question is whether PC levels are Key levels. Paladin and monk are normally not key levels for anything.
But the Charisma synergy with a succubus is immense. A succubus Paladin is way stronger then a fighter of equal level, which is where the judgement comes in. Her saves, Lay On Hands, and spellcasting are considerably better then a fighter's, and sword bond and smite give her better offense.
a comparison to a black dragon is erroeneous, because dragons are the very top of any CR rating, and wise magic item choice and spellcasting make a huge difference with NPC's. They also disregard the power of class abilities vs pure melee ability.
==Aelryinth
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Paizo already judged it to be CR 19. What's the controversy?
That she can't take on level appropriate challenges if she's judged to be CR 19?
Really, look at those numbers. Put her up against any CR 19 creature. She gets crushed, unless they have a poor will save, in which case they get added to her collection.
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Ah, poor will save? Once you equip her as a PC, her Charisma should be around 37. That's a DC 28 Will save for the at-will charm monster.
Her base Will save is +30. Her defenses are incredible. 144d6 worth of healing.
She can Smite something for an additional +13 to hit, +12 damage, and basically hit with every iterative. Add in Power attack, and items to up str or dex depending on the build, and she's a monster on the attack. Sword bond on top of everything else she can do...she's fine.
NPC's are always lower on the totem scale until they are properly equipped.
I think if you put her into a PC party she'd do just fine.
Especially when she starts leveraging profane gift and the ability to communicate telepathically with the recipients across any distance...and then teleport to them on demand.
yeah.
==Aelryinth
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If we are playing that game sure, I would like to mention that the succubus being LG means that she would literally destroy the Black Dragon (Smite Evil +cha to attack rolls, +Paladin level to damage, DOUBLED vs the evil black dragon, hell let's toss in litany of righteousness for even more damage because why not?) , the succubus saves from any spells that great wyrm can throw at her while healing herself between the full attacks.
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And not to mention she could easily be rocking a 50+ AC while she does so. And we haven't even gotten into her diplomacizing Wishes out of hapless efreet for inherent bonuses.
While telepathically commanding multiple orders of knights, adventurers and allies across the entire world.
A-Yup.
==Aelryinth
Raeur,
compare the numbers on ANY NPC to a dragon, and the NPC falls short.
Compare a level 19 fighter from the NPC codex to that dragon, and the fighter will fall short. Yet the Fighter is a key class and almost empirically should be added to the CR.
Sure, offensively, the succubus looks worse...until she gets her gear, and she's smiting, and using spells, and using Sword Bond.
But defensively and for utility use, OMG, she's incredible.
And in a fight? She'd butcher that dragon.
==Aelryinth
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Compare a level 19 fighter from the NPC codex to that dragon, and the fighter will fall short. Yet the Fighter is a key class and almost empirically should be added to the CR.
Compare a Fighter to a Warrior of the same CR and it will fall abysmally short.
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Ashiel, with all due respect, that's a terrible comparison. Fighters lack spells and cannot be pitted realistically against a paladin. If you want this point to work, you have to use a ranger or druid or something. Then you have to work out the druid's build—is she a healer? A wild shaping pouncer? A grappler?
Once you have determined all this, the focus of this thread's discussion will no doubt improve massively.
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Ashiel, with all due respect, that's a terrible comparison. Fighters lack spells and cannot be pitted realistically against a paladin. If you want this point to work, you have to use a ranger or druid or something. Then you have to work out the druid's build—is she a healer? A wild shaping pouncer? A grappler?
Once you have determined all this, the focus of this thread's discussion will no doubt improve massively.
Well Aratrok could have just made the succubus a CLERIC or ORACLE instead. She could have just taken a feat to get her Charisma all of her saves. She would trade 3 points of BAB and 12 HP for 6th level divine spellcasting which nets her spells like divine power (+4 luck to hit/damage, +12 temporary Hp, +1 attack/round), spell immunity, righteous might (+4 Str/Con, size increase, DR 5/evil which makes it near impossible to bypass all her DR without a Paladin) and domain powers (like freedom of movement on demand without actions needed), planar allies, and so forth.
She definitely wouldn't be weaker and would be more effective against a wide variety of foes. Ael is complaining that Scissors beats Paper because he's talking Paladin vs Evil here, but Cleric just stomps all over everything regardless of its alignment. :|
Honestly I think her CR is pretty much on par. CR doesn't fluctuate because the enemy is weak against your attacks. One does not lower the CR for undead because a cleric casts disrupting weapon, nor do you lower raise the CR of the party because they're throwing holy smites at evil creatures.
It's not about Succubus Paladin vs Dragon to determine CR, it's about succubus Paladin compared to Dragon. Are they both roughly as challenging to fight? Honestly I look at her and think "Hell yeah, I'd like to take a whack at that!"
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I'm just saying, comparing the succubus to a druid would probably boost this thread's ratings thought-provoking discussion.
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I'm just saying, comparing the succubus to a druid would probably boost this thread'sratingsthought-provoking discussion.
Well druid seems really off-theme from what the succubus was supposed to be, unless you mean in comparing her to what a 16th level druid NPC could do.
If it's the latter, well, comparing her to any 16th level caster is going to probably favor the caster. IMHO, her defenses are probably what makes her shine the most. Her offense is passable, which is good because she's a essentially built as a martial, but she's tanky. That's good. Tanky monsters aren't found very often and they make good enemies to use for solo-fights (because they can actually survive incoming hurt over more than a round or so).
You make a good point about the druid though. What a class is good at, while having little actual bearing on their CR, does influence how tough the fight is overall very easily. For example, a creature that is dedicated support (buffer, debuffer, healer, CC, etc) isn't typically going to be very dangerous by themselves but their CR is still valid because when building encounters they can have advantages to leverage.
On a humorous note...
Then you have to work out the druid's build—is she a healer? A wild shaping pouncer? A grappler?
All of the above. Since healing magic doesn't require good save DCs or anything, a wild-shape emphasis druid with natural spell can happily do all of those things and then pop a heal spell to reset the fight for herself by healing 160 HP (especially if her form has a burrow speed or anything that can allow her to break LoE while she recovers for her next phase).
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I'm just saying, comparing the succubus to a druid would probably boost this thread'sratingsthought-provoking discussion.
Hey! Hey. Heyyyy.
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I think that we can assume smite in CR since she would not be fighting the party if they were not evil.
That's kinda like saying a Ranger wouldn't fight the party if they weren't their favored enemy.
I'm just saying, comparing the succubus to a druid would probably boost this thread'sHey! Hey. Heyyyy.ratingsthought-provoking discussion.
S$+!, the jig is up!
*Scampers out*
I'm just saying, comparing the succubus to a druid would probably boost this thread'sHey! Hey. Heyyyy.ratingsthought-provoking discussion.
Beat me to it. :D
Ash I disagree with you on this one. In general paladins fall if they fight things that are not evil.
There can be exceptions but I think it is true more often then not.
So... all those Chaotic Neutral bandits and proteans, Lawful Neutral Judge Dredd types and overly-enthusiastic Inevitables, Chaotic Good Robin Hood types doing more harm than good that they perhaps don't realize, and True Neutral wild animals, magical beasts, constructs, elemental outsiders, and so forth are fall-worthy encounters, huh?
I'm being a bit deliberately hyperbolic but there's nothing AT ALL in the paladin falling texts that say "you fall if you fight a non-evil opponent". If the paladin has justifiable reason to battle someone that doesn't break one of the restrictions (don't do evil acts, etc.) there's no reason they should fall.
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Paladin can fight things that are not evil...hell paladin can even fight other lawful good people.
2 Paladins on opposite side of a conflict, both protecting their Kingdoms is totally fine.
But I do think, mathius meant that Paladin fails* Instead of fall, but even that, heh, yeah Paladin don't do as much damage but they are far from being too weak vs non evil creatures.
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Pretty much. Humorously, there's quite a few low-CR monsters that roflstomp high CR monsters because those monsters cannot realistically fight back. For example, a spider swarm is what, CR 1 or 2 or something (haven't looked it up. :P), but it will assuredly kill a CR 7 hill giant because the giant literally cannot hurt it unless it's got the right gear to deal with the job (like burning oil or something).
Meanwhile, a CR 3 shadow will utterly destroy most any brute monsters that it encounters because unless they're wielding magical weaponry or have some sort of offensive magic to fall back on, they cannot reasonably hurt them, while the shadow's strength-damaging touch will tear them apart.
A CR 1 bloody skeleton will eventually kill anything that doesn't have fast healing, holy water, or positive energy damage, because it keeps standing up and attacking every hour.
Heck, most anything with regeneration is a death-sentence in the same way if the monster is fighting doesn't have a way to ends its regneration. A CR 5 troll cannot be killed by a tyrannosaurus no matter how hard to T-Rex tries. Eventually it will get back up and keep fighting a very exhausted T-Rex.
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Ash I disagree with you on this one. In general paladins fall if they fight things that are not evil.
While I'm not the strictest GM on the block when it comes to paladin acrobatics, I'm pretty certain that there's nothing in their codes that only allow them to fight evil enemies. Otherwise Paladins would have to sit around and twiddle their thumbs in any encounter with constructs, animals, charmed/dominated foes, etc.
Paladins aren't even bad at it. I once made a "I hate paladins" gauntlet which consisted of a series of encounters that basically ignore anything that the Paladin brings to bear against evil creatures or undead. It was worth it enough just for the chance to witness a Paladin suplexing a Gazebo. :3
There can be exceptions but I think it is true more often then not.
Also at these levels a rangers favorite enemy does not matter since he will use instant enemy. I realize that eats an action but still.
We could replace it with any instance of "my attack hates X". Bane weapons? What about elemental weaknesses? If a wizard prepares fireball and fights an Ice Elemental, the CRs of the creatures in this situation don't change even though the wizard has a form of attack that is especially effective against the Ice Elemental.
[ A CR 5 troll cannot be killed by a tyrannosaurus no matter how hard to T-Rex tries. Eventually it will get back up and keep fighting a very exhausted T-Rex.
What if the Tyrannosaur eats the troll? Wouldn't the stomach acids finish it off?
Reggie.
(Just curious)
[ A CR 5 troll cannot be killed by a tyrannosaurus no matter how hard to T-Rex tries. Eventually it will get back up and keep fighting a very exhausted T-Rex.
What if the Tyrannosaur eats the troll? Wouldn't the stomach acids finish it off?
Reggie.
(Just curious)
RAW? No. Nothing in the tyrannosaurus' statblock gives it any way to deal acid damage.
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RAW? No. Nothing in the tyrannosaurus' statblock gives it any way to deal acid damage.[ A CR 5 troll cannot be killed by a tyrannosaurus no matter how hard to T-Rex tries. Eventually it will get back up and keep fighting a very exhausted T-Rex.What if the Tyrannosaur eats the troll? Wouldn't the stomach acids finish it off?
Reggie.
(Just curious)
And trust me, you think trolls are mean and angry normally? Wait until you have literally s%## all over their day. :P
Paladins do absolutely fine against non-evil foes. that's what spells and Sword Bond is for.
i.e. upping the enhancement bonus to +5 to bypass strange DR, adding Axiomatic, Adding Brilliant 'the PC-Killer' enhancement, etc.
Yes, acid damage would negate troll regeneration and it would get digested if it couldn't rip its way out.
Kindly remember that when calculating CR for things with NPC/PC class levels, GEAR IS PART OF THE CR.
The reverse is not true for monsters.
So, yes, you MUST include gear when calculating what Elucidea's stats are. Furthermore, you must include what LEVEL of gear, because it makes a CR difference (PC or NPC).
Her defensive abilities are being totally undersold, and as a paladin, smiting is a THing. Just given the probably resources at the command of a level 20 paladin figure with that charisma, teleporting and telepathic communication with all her allies everywhere...eesh. This lady would be TERRIFYING to cross.
==Aelryinth