Converting Eludecia - the Succubus Paladin


Conversions

51 to 98 of 98 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aelryinth wrote:
Yes, acid damage would negate troll regeneration and it would get digested if it couldn't rip its way out.

No acid damage involved, oddly. Too bad. :(

Quote:

Kindly remember that when calculating CR for things with NPC/PC class levels, GEAR IS PART OF THE CR.

The reverse is not true for monsters.
So, yes, you MUST include gear when calculating what Elucidea's stats are. Furthermore, you must include what LEVEL of gear, because it makes a CR difference (PC or NPC).

Hmmm...

Bestiary - Monster Advancement wrote:

Step 2: Add Class Levels

Once you have determined the creature's role, it's time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature's ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.

Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.

A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR (as calculated in Step 3, below). To determine the value of this gear, use the value listed for a heroic NPC of that level, as listed in Table: NPC Gear. Once a total GP value is determined, follow the rules for outfitting an NPC as outlined in that section. Gear should help a monster with class levels remain challenging and retain statistics close to those presented on Table 1-1: Monster Statistics by CR.

Oops. Looks like you gear them out appropriate for the CR that you determined in step 3. There's no further CR adjustment, you just get gear as appropriate for your modified CR based on class levels.

Hmmm, seems the rules do not agree.

Keep up the great work Aratrok! :D


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I pointed that out a while back during one of our "gear(from loot) does/does not" affect CR discussions.

Basically if you advanced a hill giant by HD his loot is would be "standard" for his new updated CR.

If you advance the same hill giant by class levels he would gain NPC wealth as if his entire CR was made of class levels.

Basically the class levels rules are a different way of advancing than other methods.

Does it make sense? Technically those advancing HD should give you a monster who by natural ability alone is equal to the monster advanced by class levels, and npc wealth. Now I know this is not true, but that is the idea.

So it is not so much as the rules not agreeing, but not being perfect.

So what if you advance by HD and class levels? Well it is ad-hoc time. OK, honestly it is adhoc time when using plain old HD also, but you get my point. :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

By that standard, not including Gear when doing a comparison for CR, a level 20 fighter is going to fall way, way short of a CR 15 dragon...and not have our Lady's defenses and movement options.

==Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aelryinth wrote:
Paladins <snip> cross.

Heh! Aaaaahhh. (Sorry, Christian humor. Weird, probably-shared-by-no-one-else-but-me Christian humor.)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wrong thread, Tacs >_>


1 person marked this as a favorite.

ARG!

I think I'd saved it here when it first started acting screwy (though I got it in the right place at that point), and I went through and submitted all the posts I had pending. Sorry...

(Deleting...)

EDIT: AHAHAHAHAH~! NOW THAT THE POST IS SUCCESSFULLY DELETED, NO ONE WILL EVER, EVER LEARN THAT I MADE A TERRIBLE MISTAKE~!

...

...

... WAIT-!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Always with the redeeming of the succubi… you never see anybody trying to recruit hezrous to the cause of the righteous. I suspect ulterior motives at work.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
QuidEst wrote:
Always with the redeeming of the succubi… you never see anybody trying to recruit hezrous to the cause of the righteous. I suspect ulterior motives at work.

Hezrou are ugly, and therefore obviously irredeemably bad. Succubi are pretty.

Amirite?

Spoiler:
For real though, succubi are probably the most "visible" demon. When you ask someone to think of a demon, they're more likely to say succubus than, say, vrock. Plus, most demons are rather straight forward destroyers, while succubi are more subtle manipulators and corruptors, and tend to make for more interesting stories in general.

A vrock loose in the city is an encounter. A succubus loose in the city is an adventure.


(I, uh... I also go for redeeming Glabrezu. They... they're pretty useful...)

Sovereign Court

That's why most people needs to embrace Murderhobo creed:

"Men, Women, Old, Ugly, Beautiful, they are all equal under my blade and give me XP."


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Aelryinth wrote:

By that standard, not including Gear when doing a comparison for CR, a level 20 fighter is going to fall way, way short of a CR 15 dragon...and not have our Lady's defenses and movement options.

==Aelryinth

Again, a "CR 20" fighter is going to fall short compared to most anything in its CR range because Fighters are bad and have no redeeming qualities, so they are reliant upon gear.

However, the succubus NPC has gear appropriate to an NPC of her CR. In this case, CR 15. If her CR increases, so too does her gear. That's basically what that says. If Aratrok made her a half-dragon succubus and it bumped up her CR but not her HD, her gear would still go up to compensate for the change because her NPC gear treasure is determined by her CR.

And yes. Defenses are good. I'm not sure why being relatively difficult to kill is a problem. I mean, if we're talking about CR 15+ creatures here, there are enemies that killing them isn't even a method of actually defeating them.

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.
QuidEst wrote:
Always with the redeeming of the succubi… you never see anybody trying to recruit hezrous to the cause of the righteous. I suspect ulterior motives at work.

Let me tell you the tale of Alistra the Bard and devotee of Cayden Cailean, who with careful applications of Ghost Sound, Silent Image, and some sound enhancing magic invented death metal in Golarion. Then, used this new artform to convert an entire army of Hezrou.... who then headbanged their way into Pitax in Kingmaker and trashed the place mosh pit style without hurting a single citizen.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aratrok wrote:

Plus, most demons are rather straight forward destroyers, while succubi are more subtle manipulators and corruptors, and tend to make for more interesting stories in general.

A vrock loose in the city is an encounter. A succubus loose in the city is an adventure.

Oh my god, seriously. :D

I ran an adventure back on OpenRPG where the party encountered a succubus enemy and never even fought with her. They tried to, but she just got angry and said she was done playing with them and whisked away. It wasn't the last they heard from her.

Succubi are insanely amazing puppeteers and mastermind characters. With their incredible charms and stealth capabilities they can literally follow a party around and just make their lives miserable, or see how much fun they can have trying to corrupt various members of the party by testing their resolve with various moral conundrums and toying with commoners and such.

Seriously, succubi are scary. They have at-will ethereal jaunt. There could be one sitting next to you right now plotting what sort of nasty things to do and no one is the wiser unless they cast see invisibility.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Well, it's good then that we've a previous example of a Paizo-made succubus/anti-paladin with amazingly equal class levels to use as a guideline.

And she's CR 19, not 15. Higher CR then the Paizo-made Transmuter/13, which clocked in at 17. So, I'm guessing that for succubi, paladin and anti-paladin levels are considered key levels.

The fighter example is there because class levels are base CR in calculation. Yet somehow our demon paladin is to be assessed on pure offensive ability, and not compared after being equipped, but before being equipped.

Which is strange. YOu took her at her weakest, match her up to a dragon for deadliness on the attack, then give her her gear. Very strange, indeed.

==Aelryinth


Hey, wouldn't be the first time Paizo biffed on a stat block. Remember when the NPC codex tried to tell people its NPCs were going to full attack with Spring Attack? Or they had ogres wielding weapons they had no idea how to use? Or the core rulebook claimed that NPCs had a CR of level-2, which ran counter to the bestiary? Or claimed fighters were ever the CR they're marketed as?

Good times.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aelryinth wrote:

Well, it's good then that we've a previous example of a Paizo-made succubus/anti-paladin with amazingly equal class levels to use as a guideline.

And she's CR 19, not 15. Higher CR then the Paizo-made Transmuter/13, which clocked in at 17. So, I'm guessing that for succubi, paladin and anti-paladin levels are considered key levels.

The fighter example is there because class levels are base CR in calculation. Yet somehow our demon paladin is to be assessed on pure offensive ability, and not compared after being equipped, but before being equipped.

Which is strange. YOu took her at her weakest, match her up to a dragon for deadliness on the attack, then give her her gear. Very strange, indeed.

==Aelryinth

I'm a bit confused. I was definitely under the impression that Aratrok included gear in her writeup. Let me go check.

Hm, yep, that's right. She has appropriate gear for her writeup.

Aratrok wrote:
Gear 45,000 gp worth of equipment (as a 15th level heroic NPC): mithral breastplate (+2 from magic vestment each day), +1 lucerne hammer, +1 cold iron greatsword, +1 adaptive composite longbow, masterwork spiked gauntlet, +2 belt of giant strength, +2 cloak of resistance, +3 amulet of natural armor, +2 ring of protection, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, boots of speed, quick runner's shirt, 3380 gp of consumables and treasure

The reason we're not freaking out about defenses is frankly because we find nothing wrong with class features intended to make you good at defense to actually make you good at defense. If having those features were to artificially inflate your CR because you had higher than average defenses for your CR, those features aren't really features.

What's the CR of a Barbarian pre-Rage and after Rage? Especially with superstition? The same CR. This isn't complicated.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aratrok wrote:

Hey, wouldn't be the first time Paizo biffed on a stat block. Remember when the NPC codex tried to tell people its NPCs were going to full attack with Spring Attack? Or they had ogres wielding weapons they had no idea how to use? Or the core rulebook claimed that NPCs had a CR of level-2, which ran counter to the bestiary? Or claimed fighters were ever the CR they're marketed as?

Good times.

Or when they said a mayor of a town with expert levels was like CR 10? Whoo boy, they be crazy. :P

Dark Archive

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Do we really need to debate the CR so much, especially since a character like Eludecia is more appropriate as an ally of the party if they meet her then an opponent? I feel this is a less important detail, or at least one that doesn't need more then a page discussing such... but who knows, perhaps I am wrong it is that important.

I admit though that I feel far too much effort is being put into debating the CR then into the conversion itself. I will see to taking what has been discussed and creating a revised version of the conversion Aratrok add what Aelryinth has offered to it, posting an updated conversion sometime by the end of the day.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Uh, he set her at CR 15, gave her gear.

What if he set her at CR 19, and THEN gave her gear? How do the numbers change? For an NPC, maybe not much, but for PC wealth? That's a huge leap.

==Aelryinth

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.

That is the thing though, why would a party be fighting her for that to matter? Also, as an NPC, wouldn't it be simpler to give Eludecia wealth and equipment of a NPC not a PC?

Sure give her gear necessary and appropriate for her level and class, but apart from that I feel there doesn't need to be such importance placed on her equipment.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aelryinth wrote:

Uh, he set her at CR 15, gave her gear.

What if he set her at CR 19, and THEN gave her gear? How do the numbers change? For an NPC, maybe not much, but for PC wealth? That's a huge leap.

==Aelryinth

Since the rules explicitly say that the extra wealth is scaled to help keep them relevant with their CR, arbitrarily increasing her CR would indeed give her more wealth, which would improve her slightly.

PC wealth seems like a non-issue. Not sure why it matters but PC wealth is an additional effect on top of the NPC, resulting in an additional +1 CR.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Well, equipment is a huge part of a character's fighting and defensive ability. Especially a melee type of ANY type. without stat boosters and good weapons, you basically have no offensive abilities. No armor, and you have crippled defensive.

Special note: If she wants to be able to teleport, you need to limit the weight of her gear! She might be using Celestial Mail or Bracers just so she can teleport around.

==Aelryinth


4 people marked this as a favorite.
JonathonWilder wrote:

That is the thing though, why would a party be fighting her for that to matter? Also, as an NPC, wouldn't it be simpler to give Eludecia wealth and equipment of a NPC not a PC?

Sure give her gear necessary and appropriate for her level and class, but apart from that I feel there doesn't need to be such importance placed on her equipment.

... I agree. Since this is your thread, I think that rather than try to convince Aelyrinth that CR does or does not work a certain way, I should really be answering your questions. After all, the CR thing is more a nit to pick than anything else, so let's focus on making a cool NPC.

So, back to one of your earlier posts. You said this:

JonathonWilder wrote:

...she will be Lawful Good by fluff if such an alignment is a tentative thing given the nature of succubus.

My thoughts is that she would have Sarenrae as her deity, since she is all about redemption and unlike that of the D&D pantheon could very likely given Eludecia a chance to prove herself.

In the morning I will look up the succubus and edit some of the above.

What feats, skills, and equipment would any of you suggest?

So she's LG, has made paladin, and been accepted by a god. Like you pointed out, not likely to be an enemy of the PCs. Alrighty.

First, I think Aratrok did a nice job with his suggested stat block back on page one and I think you can get some nice ideas from that (or just use it).

For my own thoughts... Outsider, pretty much ageless. I would suggest one skill point in each knowledge skill to reflect "life knowledge," so to speak. Doesn't have to be more than one point unless you want her to be a specialist/sage with one or more knowledge skills (which could be an angle for the party to interact with her).

I would suggest emphasizing charisma skills (to reflect her connection with and interest in mortals) but you might consider excluding intimidate (she's here to bring hope, not fear).

Give her a perform and/or some sort of craft related to art. She's got a rare, rare demonic soul (or whatever) and might find expressive outlets.

She uses two-handed weapons in the write-up (glaive, greatsword), so of course the usual feats to be an efficient melee. You'll have 10 feats (20 total hit dice should result in 10). Depending on the "power level" or niche you want her to fill, this is enough to play with some channel feats or mercy feats (like Aratrok's build), or toss in a skill focus if you would like a high specific skill to be something she is known for.

For equipment, eh. She's not set up to be an enemy so combat specific things are not such a big deal. Weapon, armor, a few widgets. Aratrok has a good list. Maybe things to reflect her faith, or perhaps a magic item she can use to help others (even in little ways! Ask the staff at the inn if you can cast pred for them, saves them some work!)

I would consider messing with the spell-like abilities. You are the GM and it would be easy to say that she's lost her summon (for example). I'd keep the energy drain because it is so defining for a succubus and also something she almost certainly can never do again (probably bad for a paladin to suck life energy). The profane gift could go also, or be changed to a divine gift and modified however you see fit.

I hope that helps!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

IF she follows Saranrae, she'll be using a scimitar.

If she's using a Scimitar, she's eligible for Dervish Dance with that monster Dex she'll have (it'll be around 28-32 depending on gear), if you care to build her that way. She doesn't need to be a Str build.

She won't be in heavy armor because she won't be able to teleport with it. So very light armor or bracers.

She doesn't need a holy weapon. She has sword bond if Holy is suitable. A +3 Evil Outsider bane weapon will be +5 against fiends and bypass alignment DR. She can use Sword bond to add +2 to it, or add Holy or Axiomatic to it as need be. Note that as a demon, all weapons she wields are automatically chaotic and evil aligned, so she bypasses those DR's, too!

I think there's a Monster Feat that allows adding Cha as a deflection bonus to AC, based on the nymph. If so, she should definitely take it, because she probably won't wear armor unless she needs to. Saves on a Prot Ring, too.

She's going to have 80 skill points from outsider levels, and 4 class skills of her choice. She's going to have 72 skill points from Paladin levels. Basically, she can take 6 skills to 20 ranks, and 4 skills to 8 ranks.

I suggest Knowledge (the planes), Perception, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Knowledge (religion), and Stealth for 20 ranks, and Knowledge (local), Bluff, Disguise for 8 ranks, and Fly and Escape Artist for 4 ranks.

If she gets an Int Modifier headband, Intimidate is a good add on, or bring Fly all the way up and Escape Artist to 8 ranks.

The feat that allows an attack after coming out of a teleport would be excellent. If so, she might want one of the Vital Strike feats.

She doesn't need Iron Will with Good Paladin saves. Actually, she doesn't need ANY of the default Succubus feats, unless you're making her a dervish dancer. So you have 10 feats to play with. She's already a paladin, retrain away!

Wis should be her dump stat.

I already posted what a Str build should be further above.

For archetypes, the only two I could really see being used were Oath of Vengeance for tons of Smites, or Hospitalar for tons of Channels to make her an uber healer at the cost of two of her dailty Smites. THe latter is probably more thematic.

==Aelryinth

Dark Archive

One thing I will note is that I will not be 'optimizing' Eludecia.

The reason being because I care more about staying true to her character then boosting her as high as possible. That since she will be an NPC, I focusing more on favor and staying true to how she was made in D&D. I will make changes where appropriate given the setting and change of system but optimize what is already an impressive character is not my goal in this conversion at all.

Just thought I would let everyone know so they will not be confused why I don't take all their advice.


Pretty much my perspective too. I couldn't keep feats like Divine Might/Shield and Elusive Target, so I opted for making her Lay On Hands awesome and give her the ability to shout battlecries to support people, with Osyluth Guile (sorta) filling in for Elusive Target. And I wanted to give her the same weapon types, even though she didn't have as much cash (since the original handed her PC wealth and upgraded her to CR 16 from CR 15- you could totally do that).

If we were optimizing she'd just pump Dexterity and get bow feats and be done with it. But that's not as interesting.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

A dervish build would be full of flavor and very non optimal. although it would dovetail nicely with archery.

Holy weapons are a definite no no. Not only would she take a constant penalty, neither sword bond nor +5 bypassing all DR existed in 3.5. If she needs Holy, she has it on command.

IF she's Str-based , however, she definitely shouldn't have Weapon finesse, or Agile Manuvers, both of which are meant for Dex higher then Str.

My note on her armor was for practical reasons. Taking away her ability to teleport is a bad idea.

=+Aelryinth


The total amount of gear I presented weighed about 40 pounds, and I mentioned that very thing. What are you talking about? o.O

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

oh, looking at her original gear set, looked like it was over 50 lbs (2 melee weapons? Really?)

==Aelryinth


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Ipslore the Red wrote:
Reggie wrote:
[ A CR 5 troll cannot be killed by a tyrannosaurus no matter how hard to T-Rex tries. Eventually it will get back up and keep fighting a very exhausted T-Rex.

What if the Tyrannosaur eats the troll? Wouldn't the stomach acids finish it off?

Reggie.

(Just curious)

RAW? No. Nothing in the tyrannosaurus' statblock gives it any way to deal acid damage.
And trust me, you think trolls are mean and angry normally? Wait until you have literally s%** all over their day. :P

I'm sure the bad mood would... pass...

=)

Dark Archive

@Aratrok, @Aelryinth
Also keep in mind there is such a thing as a Handy Hoversack Bag and Bag of Holding, so I am not as worried about weight. Then with the Celestial Armours counting as one size category lower (whether light or medium) that would help weight as well.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Honestly speaking, I've found mithral to be the go-to material for a lot of equipment for fiends (the fact it counts as silver which pierces the DR of many other fiends is a plus as well) because of the 1/2 weight thing. For example, in my revised marilith, she's wielding mithral longswords. Keeps the weight down.

Darkwood is similar but you don't find a lot of wooden items. That said, there's something kind of cool about the idea of a staff-wielding marilith...

Dark Archive

My apologies for taking so long to give an update, but I have been working on converting this off and on and even have come up with a few ideas I feel could be interesting. Honestly, I do feel this might be worthy of a CR 19.

Here is the link.

Silver Crusade

Just going to say, Anti paladin is an alternate class to paladin(like samurai to cav)

Dark Archive

Reklaw wrote:
Just going to say, Anti paladin is an alternate class to paladin(like samurai to cav)

... So? Seriously the whole point is that she is a redeemed demon that she has gone from chaotic evil to lawful good. The suggestion that she be an anti-paladin goes completely against concept. Did you even read my first post and the thread in general?

Silver Crusade

JonathonWilder wrote:
Reklaw wrote:
Just going to say, Anti paladin is an alternate class to paladin(like samurai to cav)
... So? Seriously the whole point is that she is a redeemed demon that she has gone from chaotic evil to lawful good. The suggestion that she be an anti-paladin goes completely against concept. Did you even read my first post and the thread in general?

I did, I'm saying literally Anti paladin is a pull off of paladin, use the preexisting anti-paladin write as an example for math and number break down reasons.


remember monsters as pc races can write off some of their "level adjustment" every few levels of a pc class they obtain

"It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down."

quote from monsters as pcs rules so your sucubus paladin 12 would be cr 19 before any of the write offs but you would have gained sufficient levels to gain an extra 3 levels in paladin for sucubus paladin 15 while every one else is level 19

Dark Archive

Oh, we're going back to the whole challenge rating thing?

Again my hope is that the party won't try to fight Eludecia. If they do, I do believe it is a foregone conclusion that unless they're at least at or above level 18 they're not going to be able to win, and by that level they should have access to spells that quite clearly show that she isn't someone they need to fight.

The party wants to try fighting her they can, but unless they're nearing highest level play her challenge rating doesn't even really matter.

I'll put her challenge rating as 19 for now.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At the sake of simplicity, why assign a CR at all?

If it is someone that should serve as an exemplar, not unlike a deity, then perhaps not giving a 'hard' number to the 'CR' might make it less of a challenge and allow one to focus more on the personality and development of the individual from their background?


JonathonWilder wrote:
Honestly, I do feel this might be worthy of a CR 19.

Hmm, check out this official table for reference values. Some of her values could use a boost - if you really want to throw her into battle (either against the PCs or other NPCs).


JonathonWilder wrote:

Oh, we're going back to the whole challenge rating thing?

Again my hope is that the party won't try to fight Eludecia. If they do, I do believe it is a foregone conclusion that unless they're at least at or above level 18 they're not going to be able to win, and by that level they should have access to spells that quite clearly show that she isn't someone they need to fight.

The party wants to try fighting her they can, but unless they're nearing highest level play her challenge rating doesn't even really matter.

I'll put her challenge rating as 19 for now.

oh is this for a npc then? i thought it was you trying to transfer one of your pc's from 3.5 to pathfinder if its for an npc you ignore the cr rebalancing i think as its for pc use only. then the cr would be 18 if your using npc wealth (either normal or heroic) or 19 if you use pc wealth

Dark Archive

Yes this is for a NPC... An admittedly likely to be very influential and powerful NPC where ever I place her taking into consideration all she is capable of, as pointed out by Aelryinth.


Interestingly enough she remains smiteable by Paladins because of her subtype, and by Anti-Paladins because of her alignment.


Reggie wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Ipslore the Red wrote:
Reggie wrote:
[ A CR 5 troll cannot be killed by a tyrannosaurus no matter how hard to T-Rex tries. Eventually it will get back up and keep fighting a very exhausted T-Rex.

What if the Tyrannosaur eats the troll? Wouldn't the stomach acids finish it off?

Reggie.

(Just curious)

RAW? No. Nothing in the tyrannosaurus' statblock gives it any way to deal acid damage.
And trust me, you think trolls are mean and angry normally? Wait until you have literally s%** all over their day. :P

I'm sure the bad mood would... pass...

=)

Swallow whole damage is described as bludgeoning AND acid so once he's inside, it's all over.


JonathonWilder wrote:
Yes this is for a NPC... An admittedly likely to be very influential and powerful NPC where ever I place her taking into consideration all she is capable of, as pointed out by Aelryinth.

ok so ya 18 cr if using npc WBL and 19 if using pc WBL

Dark Archive

Honestly, she probably have access to whatever funds she needs given her level and position... though I could simply see how much the cost of all her equipment goes to.

Oh, just to make mention, I will be making use of the book Ultimate Charisma.

51 to 98 of 98 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Conversions / Converting Eludecia - the Succubus Paladin All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Conversions