Multiple Animal Companions at maximum effective Druid level.


Rules Questions


So my group really enjoys breaking this game, and I love having Animal Companions to train. I think I've come up with a way to really bother my GM with my next toon, and would like input on it's legality before presenting the character.

Lets start with a Half-Orc/Orc Cavalier 5/Packmaster (Hunter) 2

Half-Orcs & Orcs have access to a feat called Beast Rider, which reads:

"Beast Rider

Prerequisites: Animal companion or mount class feature, character level 7th, half-orc or orc.

Benefit: Select one of the following creature types: elephant, pteranodon, rhinoceros, stegosaurus, or triceratops. Add this creature type to your list of possible animal companions or mounts. When summoning a creature of the selected type to serve as a mount or companion, treat your effective druid level as if it were two levels higher (to a maximum of your character level). If the creature is large enough for you to ride, it gains the combat training general purpose (see Handle Animal) at no cost."

Now lets say I take the above feat and choose a Triceratops as my Cavalier mount (henceforth known as "Triceratops 1"). The Hunter archetype Packmaster has an Ex ability called Pack Bond, which reads:

"Pack Bond (Ex)

A packmaster can have more than one animal companion, but she must divide her effective druid level between her companions to determine the abilities of each one. For example, a 4th-level packmaster can have one 4th-level animal companion, two 2nd-level companions, one 3rd-level companion and one 1st-level companion, or four 1st-level companions.

When a packmaster gains a level, she must decide how to allocate the increase among her animal companions, including whether or not to add a new 1st-level companion. Once a hunter level is allocated to a particular companion, it cannot be redistributed while that companion is in the packmaster's service. She must release the companion or wait until the companion dies to allocate its levels to another companion, which she can then do the next time she refreshes her spell slots for the day. The share spells animal companion ability applies to only one animal companion at a time—the packmaster cannot use it to cast a spell that affects only a single target and have the spell affect all of her animal companions.

A packmaster's precise companion, woodland stride, and teamwork feats apply to only one of her animal companions at a time. (For example, a packmaster can apply precise companion to one companion, woodland stride to another, and a given teamwork feat to a third, but cannot apply any of those to two animal companions at once.) As a swift action, she can change which companion gains any or all of these benefits.

This ability replaces animal companion"

And so, with this ability, I acquire a second Triceratops, "Triceratops 2".

Here's where it gets cheesy...

At 9th level, I take the Horse Master feat:

"Horse Master

Prerequisite: Expert trainer class feature, Ride 6 ranks.

Benefit: Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount."

Now, we all know that as long as the animals are on both lists (which a Triceratops is, due to Beast Rider), then you may use levels from other classes to increase your EDL for a particular companion. Then, I continue taking levels in Hunter and putting all EDLs in Triceratops 2. I take Boon Companion for Triceratops 2, thus boosting my EDL for him by 6 (2 from Beast Rider, 4 from Boon Companion), and Triceratops 1 uses my character level as my EDL for just him.

Thus, 2 maximum EDL Animal Companions at any level, if my logic is correct. Is it?


Sorry it doesn't work. None of your feat/abilities allows you to raise your EDL past your actual character level. Since both cavalier and hunter give companions your EDL is 7 and your character level is 7.

Boon companion add 4 levels but restricts you to your maximum character level so it would give you no bonus as your EDL is already equal to your character level.

Grand Lodge

Nevan Oaks wrote:

Sorry it doesn't work. None of your feat/abilities allows you to raise your EDL past your actual character level. Since both cavalier and hunter give companions your EDL is 7 and your character level is 7.

Boon companion add 4 levels but restricts you to your maximum character level so it would give you no bonus as your EDL is already equal to your character level.

I don't see where he's asking to raise his companions past his current level..

I don't see why you need Boon Companion. When you're level 9 Tri 1 can be actual level 1 and treated as 9 due to Horse Master. Tri 2 can be actual level 8 + 2 (cap'd at 9) due to Beast Rider.

Shadow Lodge

But your total companion levels are being increased past your character level. Is is unclear whether this does or should work, and the OP admits to doing this in order to:

AmbassadorZubat wrote:
really bother my GM with my next toon

Don't bother your GM. Certainly don't really bother your GM. It makes your GM less likely to rule in your favour in ambiguous situations like this one.


Basically, the way it should work is for levels that don't advance an animal companion instead treat them as though they did.

All of your levels advance animal companions, therefore Horse Master does nothing for you.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:

Basically, the way it should work is for levels that don't advance an animal companion instead treat them as though they did.

All of your levels advance animal companions, therefore Horse Master does nothing for you.

How does Horse Master do nothing? Packmaster will let him split his hunter levels between two animal companions. Cavalier will give his cavalier levels to one companion Beast rider gives +2 to one.

So if cav = 5, and hunter = X + Y, where X + Y + 5 = character level

so without horsemaster he'd have (or at least a very similar variation)
1: 5 + X + 2
2: Y

So how are you saying that both of his animal companions stay maxed out?


Because the intention of the feat was to allow a cavalier to multiclass and continue the advancement of his mount. So basically you're level 5 cavalier level 5 fighter multiclass would still have an level 10 animal companion.

The feat was not well written to include what happens when you can split your effective character levels between more than one animal companion. Despite what is written, I am certain it's intention is not to allow this sort of shenanigans.

Think of horsemaster as granting a number of extra effective levels to your animal companion based on:

bonus levels = character level - levels that advance animal companion

In this case, his character level is 9. He has at least 5 levels of cavalier, and at least 2 of hunter. I was assuming his last two levels were in either cavalier or hunter. However, no matter which it is the result is the same. He has 9 effective druid levels.

Beast Rider effectively adds 2 per companion that meets the criteria.

Boon Companion grants 4.

So, in this case with 2 creatures that are valid for Beast Rider he would have a total of 9 + 2*2 + 4 = 17 effective druid levels, with no single creature being able to be of higher level than character level (9).

So in this case, he could have one 9th level companion and one 8th level companion.

Next level he could have one 10th and one 8th, or two 9th.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:

Because the intention of the feat was to allow a cavalier to multiclass and continue the advancement of his mount. So basically you're level 5 cavalier level 5 fighter multiclass would still have an level 10 animal companion.

The feat was not well written to include what happens when you can split your effective character levels between more than one animal companion. Despite what is written, I am certain it's intention is not to allow this sort of shenanigans.

Think of horsemaster as granting a number of extra effective levels to your animal companion based on:

bonus levels = character level - levels that advance animal companion

In this case, his character level is 9. He has at least 5 levels of cavalier, and at least 2 of hunter. I was assuming his last two levels were in either cavalier or hunter. However, no matter which it is the result is the same. He has 9 effective druid levels.

Beast Rider effectively adds 2 per companion that meets the criteria.

Boon Companion grants 4.

So, in this case with 2 creatures that are valid for Beast Rider he would have a total of 9 + 2*2 + 4 = 17 effective druid levels, with no single creature being able to be of higher level than character level (9).

So in this case, he could have one 9th level companion and one 8th level companion.

Next level he could have one 10th and one 8th, or two 9th.

Ok, I see what you mean, I was going from the perspective that boon companion is superfluous because it doesn't scale while Horse Lord does. In your example, after the next next level he'd fall behind and would need Horse Lord, or he could just take Horse Lord and not need Boon Companion.


My example include boon companion, it is necessary to have that high of an effective companion levels.

My point is horse lord basically converts levels that don't provide an animal companion into levels that do.

Such that is 5 levels were cavalier, 2 were hunter, and 2 were fighter he would still have 9 effective druid levels. Without Horse Lord he would only have 7.

Boon companion and Beast Master would still add 4 and 2* number of valid companions to his total effective druid level pool.

But what Horse Master does not do, is make it so that both animal companions are always at maximum level.

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:

My example include boon companion, it is necessary to have that high of an effective companion levels.

My point is horse lord basically converts levels that don't provide an animal companion into levels that do.

Such that is 5 levels were cavalier, 2 were hunter, and 2 were fighter he would still have 9 effective druid levels. Without Horse Lord he would only have 7.

Boon companion and Beast Master would still add 4 and 2* number of valid companions to his total effective druid level pool.

But what Horse Master does not do, is make it so that both animal companions are always at maximum level.

He doesn't need Boon Companion to accomplish his goal

Once he hits 9 and selects horse master he can distribute his levels thusly between his two pest.

8 + 2 (cap'd at 9)
1 (up to 9 via horselord)

He doesn't need the +4 from boon companion.


I'm not going to weigh in on the specifics of the debate, it is a proper theoretical debate to have of course, the rules need clarifying.

I'd think carefully about playing this build though. At low levels, its extremely powerful, the action economy and meat shield aspect of it is great for those early levels. I did a oneshot with a Cavalier(Huntmaster) at lvl 1. 5 birds all dropping alchemist fire, it was a specatcular site.

As you level up though, you'll end up expending increasing numbers of feats on Boon Companion (multiple times) and other feats to try to keep up the number of companions. Whenever you go to buff your companions, you'll want to use Communal versions of spells and pick up rods of extend. But you'll really be hit hard on pocketbook. If you've ever played with an animal companion, you'll know the pain of spreading your GP between two characters. Trying to do even 3 is extremely tough.

If you play it at a high character level, equip the companions for hard offensive strikes and expend little on their defenses, maybe just a Cap of the Freethinker and some low level save boosting.
Beyond that, whatever their offensive niche is (powerful charge, pounce, manufactured weapons on apes) focus on it.

Use Magic Device is an option, and things like Wands of Magic Missile or Wands of Scorching Ray are dirt cheap. Mirror Image is a cheap spell given how durable it makes a companion.

Mostly, I just don't recommend it for past maybe lvl 7 or so. You're better off with just 1 companion at those levels.


I think my reading would be that Horse Master applies before you divide your levels among the multiple companions.

Logic: Horse Master sets your EDL to character level. Packmaster says you divide up your EDL. Seems fairly clear that Horse Master has to apply first.


Weirdo wrote:

But your total companion levels are being increased past your character level. Is is unclear whether this does or should work, and the OP admits to doing this in order to:

AmbassadorZubat wrote:
really bother my GM with my next toon
Don't bother your GM. Certainly don't really bother your GM. It makes your GM less likely to rule in your favour in ambiguous situations like this one.

No, you don't understand. My GM is a long time friend who would appreciate the hell out of this build if it would actually function. The two of us exchange notes on silly builds and such all the time. It would bother him to have to deal with it in an actual game.


Regardless of how it would be received, the fact of the matter is that your total EDL is still capped at your character level, at least via the methods you've already mentioned. (The "why" has already been fleshed out by others, so I see no further need to address it.)

Alternatively, you could take the animal ally feat prior to acquiring a mount; the extra EDL would be independent of your cavalier EDL progression (unlike Horse Master and other "catch up" methods), thus giving you extra hit dice to allot to another animal companion. For this method to work, though, you'll need to either take your first 4 levels in some other class (probably fighter), thus delaying your build by that many levels, or taking the Standard Bearer archetype (which doesn't mix with Huntmaster if memory serves right).


Azoriel wrote:

Regardless of how it would be received, the fact of the matter is that your total EDL is still capped at your character level, at least via the methods you've already mentioned. (The "why" has already been fleshed out by others, so I see no further need to address it.)

Alternatively, you could take the animal ally feat prior to acquiring a mount; the extra EDL would be independent of your cavalier EDL progression (unlike Horse Master and other "catch up" methods), thus giving you extra hit dice to allot to another animal companion. For this method to work, though, you'll need to either take your first 4 levels in some other class (probably fighter), thus delaying your build by that many levels, or taking the Standard Bearer archetype (which doesn't mix with Huntmaster if memory serves right).

Ill try and dig it up, but Im pretty sure there was a dev post admitting that Animal Ally is misworded and not intended to work that way. Basically, just like horse lord, it is supposed to give a character a EDL of his non-ac granting character levels that stacks with the EDL of ac granting character levels, and not let you double dip levels. Basically, the intent for all feats and rules elements with regards to animal companions is that a given character level can only ever count once when determining your EDL. Boon companion and similarly worded abilities can break this with multiple ACs, but that is because they are independent static values, not based on character levels.

Edit: Couldn't find it. But the feat is horribly worded and non-functional if you are following strict RAW. You lose the benefit of a feat if you no longer meet its prerequisites, and Animal Ally's benefit invalidates its own prerequisites. You would need a "Special: " text block exemption to override this, and it doesn't exist, throwing the feat into an infinite on/off loop, which is obviously broken. The simplest fix is just make your non-EDL granting levels-4 give you an AC that stacks with your EDL granting levels.


Calth wrote:
Edit: Couldn't find it. But the feat is horribly worded and non-functional if you are following strict RAW. You lose the benefit of a feat if you no longer meet its prerequisites, and Animal Ally's benefit invalidates its own prerequisites. You would need a "Special: " text block exemption to override this, and it doesn't exist, throwing the feat into an infinite on/off loop, which is obviously broken. The simplest fix is just make your non-EDL granting levels-4 give you an AC that stacks with your EDL granting levels.

The fix you purpose isn't really a fix, as doesn't fix anything other than people getting more than their character level in EDL - and that's presuming you wish to treat this as a problem. I personally see no problem with having more than your character level in EDL, especially when the excess EDL is going to get put into another creature anyway (as opposed to someone trying to make one super-powered animal companion with extra hit dice).

If you were to simply run with the assumption that the feat continues to work after you've gained an animal companion - an assumption that the writers apparently made as well - then the pre-existing text about stacking is already adequate.

As an aside, if you really wanted to fix the problem you pointed out, simply change the prerequisite to say: "must not have an animal companion or mount that advances as an animal companion prior to acquiring this feat". (I might be missing something, but I don't see how the fix posited earlier corrects this problem.) o.O

Scarab Sages

There may be a different single class build. There is a Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor Archetype that is very much like the Hunter, it gets an animal companion and shares combat feats with it. The inquisitor could take the Animal Domain (I like the feather subdomain) and pick up an animal companion at his Inquisitor Level-3 which could then be brought up to level with boon companion.

That might work.


B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:

There may be a different single class build. There is a Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor Archetype that is very much like the Hunter, it gets an animal companion and shares combat feats with it. The inquisitor could take the Animal Domain (I like the feather subdomain) and pick up an animal companion at his Inquisitor Level-3 which could then be brought up to level with boon companion.

That might work.

Or Chivalry Inquisition for mount of your level.

Grand Lodge

Ian Bell wrote:

I think my reading would be that Horse Master applies before you divide your levels among the multiple companions.

Logic: Horse Master sets your EDL to character level. Packmaster says you divide up your EDL. Seems fairly clear that Horse Master has to apply first.

Gotchya, after rereading it I agree


claudekennilol wrote:
Ian Bell wrote:

I think my reading would be that Horse Master applies before you divide your levels among the multiple companions.

Logic: Horse Master sets your EDL to character level. Packmaster says you divide up your EDL. Seems fairly clear that Horse Master has to apply first.

Gotchya, after rereading it I agree

In which case, the math I did above would calculate your total effective druid level including bonuses provided by boon companion and beast rider with the caveats that apply such as correct creature type and companion level not being above character level.


this is what you want http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rwqw?APE-WITH-RANGED-WEAPON-3-ANIMAL-COMPANION S


i also have a cleric build if you want to see it. there is no way you can actually play it because no one will love you.

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