"best" spell perfection for my shaman


Advice


*** DM allow to choose also spells that i add via arcane enlightenment.

so, i am lvl 12, and need to plan the next lvl 13 feat to match the chosen spell.

here are options:

spiritual weapon::

dazing for free :
spell lvl 2. standard cast, Daze save DC 18 or daze
quicken for free:
spell lvl 2. swift action
quicken toppling :
spell lvl 3 :
Swift action
quicken dazing :
spell lvl 5 swift action
quicken toppling, dazing :
require trait. spell lvl 6
swift action

so, total combo : with trait.
lvl 6 spell:
swift action = weapon that attack for 1d8+4 & save foe Daze & toppling each attack.

standard action (lvl 3) = another weapon that toppling & daze each attack.
consider adding persistent for 2 saves for daze.
add another, and another and another until you over swamp the foe.

fire ball::

dazing for free : spell level 3.
quicken for free : spell level 3.
dazing + quicken : require trait. lvl 6.

Enervation::

quicken for free : lvl 4
quicken empower (need trait) : lvl 6 (drain up to 6)
empower + max : lvl 6 drain auto 6

adding 10 level damage a round = no foe in a round... no saves.

Baneful Polymorph::

quicken for free : lvl 5
persistent for free : lvl 5

a single round combo (lvl 5+5): 2 spells = 3 saves or die.
best used after a round of evil eye, while someone add shaken.

with evil eye & shaken, and 3 saves - it's almost a sure thing ANY foe is a goner.
few are immune to it.

Ball lighting: :

quicken for free : lvl 4
persistent for free : lvl 4
quicken + persistent, need trait lvl 6.
quicken, elemental, lvl 5
dazing : lvl 4
dazing, persistent : lvl 6
quicken + elemental + rimmed lvl need trait.

for example, i can swift action (lvl-6) cold ball lighting for
(3d6)*3 & fail save (3times) = free entangle 4 rounds
&
(3d6)*3 damage, each att roll 2 saves (2*3=6 total) or be daze for 4 rounds) .
each round the balls continue...

very versatile


I don't know if your GM cares, but technically Rime Spell can't be added to spells like ball lightning even alongside elemental spell. They actually need the [cold] descriptor, which elemental spell doesn't change(probably an oversight, but still).

If you want to stomp on everything ever, you can't really go wrong with dazing perfected ball lightning.


i tend to agree....
here is round 2 candidates:

spiritual weapon:
is great cause it's cheap - so i can add 2 a round for many combats.
toppling, dazing \ dazing quickened each round. (lvl 2\lvl 4 combo).
force damage = NO FOE IS IMMUNE.
require attack rolls that aint great for a shaman (bab 3/4 and wisdom only).

ball of lighting:
down side = some (demons..) are immune totally to lighting damage. and elemental i will only gain at VERY high damage.

but a persistent, dazing spell (lvl 5 with trait) & quicken persistent (for damage) (lvl 6).
6 saves a round.
3 >> for damage
3 >> for total shut down.
EACH round.
it's costly combo (5+6) but... will last a combat long!

Baneful Polymorph is costly but no foe can resist.


666bender wrote:

spiritual weapon:

...
require attack rolls that aint great for a shaman (bab 3/4 and wisdom only).

If this is your only downside, you can fix that with the feat Spiritual Guardian that lets you use your shaman level as your spiritual weapon's BAB. It also gives a bonus against spell resistance. :-)


Good advice. I will try to fit it in.


final voting:
Spiritual weapon Vs ball lighting?

base spell level:
*** more times a day
*** can add more meta feats as riders.
Spiritual weapon > ball lighting (2 vs 4) .

damage:
3d6*3 Vs 1d8+5.... HUGE difference.
3 balls attacking with 1 move action Vs 1 weapon.
BUT : lighting = a lot of resistance \ immune. force = always good.

save Vs to hit mechanics:
no idea what is better.

so, total review:
Spiritual weapon : "best 1 round combo"
*** quicken, dazing, toppling (with trait), = lvl 5 spell
*** dazing & persistent spell (lvl 6 spell) in 1 round.

several attacks a round, all make you save (DC 18) or daze. can topple and *2 save .
full round = 4-6 attacks, all daze \ trip.
if it's a long day, cast dazing lvl 2 spell. many times a day.

ball lighting : "best 1 round combo"
*** quicken & persistent = lvl 6 spell
*** & dazing & persistent = lvl 5 spell
12 saves a round.
3*2 >>> for 3d6*3 damage
3*2 >>> for 3d6*3 damage and daze.
daze DC = 20
it's a lot more costly, and useless Vs demons. but, strong combo punch,


The thing I really don't like about spiritual weapon is that it attacks non-touch AC. The typical CR12 creature has 27AC. What is your casting stat? 24ish? That is a total attack bonus of +15, or +18 if you burn a feat. Iteratives are even worse. You will hit around 33% of your 2 attacks due to missing their AC (without a feat), or 35% of your 3 attacks (with the feat). Effectively you are getting 2/3 of a hit per round, or 1 hit per round using a feat. Contrast to 3-5 hits per round with ball lightning.

What makes this even worse is that you then target will with Dazing Spell. Part of what makes Dazing so kick*** is that it can be made to target reflex. You know, the save that is by far the worst on almost all high level threats (in some cases over 10 points below the other saves). By using spiritual weapon you are forcing a lower DC save on Will, the best save for most dangerous creatures.

If you are seriously concerned about high resistance/immunity screwing ball lightning, buy a metamagic rod of elemental spell(acid). That should probably be enough.


666bender wrote:

Baneful Polymorph is costly but no foe can resist.

Baneful Polymorph isn't a good choice. It has a very short range and lots of things are immune to it including all undead, constructs and elementals. Also it targets fortitude which is regularly an enemies highest save.

I quite like chain lightning for mass dazing. It has long range, selectively targets without the need for further metamagic, hits lots of enemies even if they are spread out, deals decent damage and is available to you from the Heavens spirit.


666bender wrote:

ball lighting : "best 1 round combo"

*** quicken & persistent = lvl 6 spell
*** & dazing & persistent = lvl 5 spell
12 saves a round.
3*2 >>> for 3d6*3 damage
3*2 >>> for 3d6*3 damage and daze.
daze DC = 20
it's a lot more costly, and useless Vs demons. but, strong combo punch,

Its not just useless against demons, its pretty bad against anything with electricity resistance 10 and useless against resistance 20. The dazing rider only applies if the spell actually deals damage. While 3d6 is likely to give you a number better than 10 sometimes it wont and then you are screwed. Resistance 20 is available from a caster level 7 resist energy, trivial at the level you are looking at.


Snowblind wrote:

The thing I really don't like about spiritual weapon is that it attacks non-touch AC. The typical CR12 creature has 27AC. What is your casting stat? 24ish? That is a total attack bonus of +15, or +18 if you burn a feat. Iteratives are even worse. You will hit around 33% of your 2 attacks due to missing their AC (without a feat), or 35% of your 3 attacks (with the feat). Effectively you are getting 2/3 of a hit per round, or 1 hit per round using a feat. Contrast to 3-5 hits per round with ball lightning.

What makes this even worse is that you then target will with Dazing Spell. Part of what makes Dazing so kick*** is that it can be made to target reflex. You know, the save that is by far the worst on almost all high level threats (in some cases over 10 points below the other saves). By using spiritual weapon you are forcing a lower DC save on Will, the best save for most dangerous creatures.

If you are seriously concerned about high resistance/immunity screwing ball lightning, buy a metamagic rod of elemental spell(acid). That should probably be enough.

FAQ say bard add the performance to the weapon's to hit.

DM agreed any spell that add to ray attacks add to the spell.
so, it's normally +2 good hope & +3 bard boost.
sometimes, i can also add +3 divine favor if i got time to buff.
this make to hit a whole lot better.

no buying gear - so no meta feat rod - i can grab the feat, but... it will be in place of other feats & the starting level of lvl 4 makes it harder to use.
lastly, cant mix quicken and dazing on lvl 4 spell - meaning the quicken version will be, elemental or persistent only. no addon effects.
the standard cast spell can be dazing & elemental & persistent.

BTW - i guess acid is the top elemental for the feat, right?

totally right about reflex saves though.


andreww wrote:
666bender wrote:

ball lighting : "best 1 round combo"

*** quicken & persistent = lvl 6 spell
*** & dazing & persistent = lvl 5 spell
12 saves a round.
3*2 >>> for 3d6*3 damage
3*2 >>> for 3d6*3 damage and daze.
daze DC = 20
it's a lot more costly, and useless Vs demons. but, strong combo punch,
Its not just useless against demons, its pretty bad against anything with electricity resistance 10 and useless against resistance 20. The dazing rider only applies if the spell actually deals damage. While 3d6 is likely to give you a number better than 10 sometimes it wont and then you are screwed. Resistance 20 is available from a caster level 7 resist energy, trivial at the level you are looking at.

ye, the ball need having a elemental feat.


666bender wrote:
Snowblind wrote:

The thing I really don't like about spiritual weapon is that it attacks non-touch AC. The typical CR12 creature has 27AC. What is your casting stat? 24ish? That is a total attack bonus of +15, or +18 if you burn a feat. Iteratives are even worse. You will hit around 33% of your 2 attacks due to missing their AC (without a feat), or 35% of your 3 attacks (with the feat). Effectively you are getting 2/3 of a hit per round, or 1 hit per round using a feat. Contrast to 3-5 hits per round with ball lightning.

What makes this even worse is that you then target will with Dazing Spell. Part of what makes Dazing so kick*** is that it can be made to target reflex. You know, the save that is by far the worst on almost all high level threats (in some cases over 10 points below the other saves). By using spiritual weapon you are forcing a lower DC save on Will, the best save for most dangerous creatures.

If you are seriously concerned about high resistance/immunity screwing ball lightning, buy a metamagic rod of elemental spell(acid). That should probably be enough.

FAQ say bard add the performance to the weapon's to hit.

DM agreed any spell that add to ray attacks add to the spell.
so, it's normally +2 good hope & +3 bard boost.
sometimes, i can also add +3 divine favor if i got time to buff.
this make to hit a whole lot better.

no buying gear - so no meta feat rod - i can grab the feat, but... it will be in place of other feats & the starting level of lvl 4 makes it harder to use.
lastly, cant mix quicken and dazing on lvl 4 spell - meaning the quicken version will be, elemental or persistent only. no addon effects.
the standard cast spell can be dazing & elemental & persistent.

BTW - i guess acid is the top elemental for the feat, right?

totally right about reflex saves though.

Are you *certain* that stuff like divine favor works on spiritual weapon. If I read it correctly, it doesn't use your attack bonus as it's attack bonus. It specifically has it's attack bonus set to your BAB plus your wisdom mod. This is different from things like using Bardic performance with ray spells, since those are actually you doing the attack and they use your bonuses. AFAIK spiritual weapon shouldn't benefit from your divine favor any more than summons benefit from buffs cast on you.


andreww wrote:
666bender wrote:

Baneful Polymorph is costly but no foe can resist.

Baneful Polymorph isn't a good choice. It has a very short range and lots of things are immune to it including all undead, constructs and elementals. Also it targets fortitude which is regularly an enemies highest save.

I quite like chain lightning for mass dazing. It has long range, selectively targets without the need for further metamagic, hits lots of enemies even if they are spread out, deals decent damage and is available to you from the Heavens spirit.

chain lighting is amzing spell. BUT, i cant be quickened only dazing.

if foe is immune to lighting so are done


Snowblind wrote:
666bender wrote:
Snowblind wrote:

The thing I really don't like about spiritual weapon is that it attacks non-touch AC. The typical CR12 creature has 27AC. What is your casting stat? 24ish? That is a total attack bonus of +15, or +18 if you burn a feat. Iteratives are even worse. You will hit around 33% of your 2 attacks due to missing their AC (without a feat), or 35% of your 3 attacks (with the feat). Effectively you are getting 2/3 of a hit per round, or 1 hit per round using a feat. Contrast to 3-5 hits per round with ball lightning.

What makes this even worse is that you then target will with Dazing Spell. Part of what makes Dazing so kick*** is that it can be made to target reflex. You know, the save that is by far the worst on almost all high level threats (in some cases over 10 points below the other saves). By using spiritual weapon you are forcing a lower DC save on Will, the best save for most dangerous creatures.

If you are seriously concerned about high resistance/immunity screwing ball lightning, buy a metamagic rod of elemental spell(acid). That should probably be enough.

FAQ say bard add the performance to the weapon's to hit.

DM agreed any spell that add to ray attacks add to the spell.
so, it's normally +2 good hope & +3 bard boost.
sometimes, i can also add +3 divine favor if i got time to buff.
this make to hit a whole lot better.

no buying gear - so no meta feat rod - i can grab the feat, but... it will be in place of other feats & the starting level of lvl 4 makes it harder to use.
lastly, cant mix quicken and dazing on lvl 4 spell - meaning the quicken version will be, elemental or persistent only. no addon effects.
the standard cast spell can be dazing & elemental & persistent.

BTW - i guess acid is the top elemental for the feat, right?

totally right about reflex saves though.

Are you *certain* that stuff like divine favor works on spiritual weapon. If I read it correctly, it doesn't use your attack...

FAQ claim other wise:

FAQ
Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)

For example, a bard's inspire courage ability says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so <you> don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.

The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.


666bender wrote:

chain lighting is amzing spell. BUT, i cant be quickened only dazing.

if foe is immune to lighting so are done

If you are using magical lineage anyway then it can be quickened.

Shamans also get Flame Strike. It hits a fairly small area and has a 15d6 damage cap but half of the damage is "divine power" and therefore ignores any form of resistance allowing you to skip any messing about with elemental spell.

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