What PF spells do you think are over-powered?


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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

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Yeah, it's one of those kinda threads...

I mean it as a serious question, though, and I suppose it's worth clarifying by what I mean by 'overpowered' in this context. Many spells are potentially very powerful. But after several years of playing Pathfinder, I've noticed that my spellcasters all tend to hit commonalities of 'must have' spells. As an arcane caster, I can't imagine not picking up, say, glitterdust, and haste, because those spells are so good for their level that it feels like an intentionally sub-par choice if I don't learn them. As a divine caster, burst of radiance feels similarly so good (guaranteed auto-damage against evil foes? a chance to blind anyone? hell yes...). (Noting it's available as a wizard/sorc spell too. Yeesh.)

These three spells hit my personal criteria for: 'spells I really have to talk myself out of, otherwise every caster I play will feel like a carbon copy of my last caster'. That's what I mean by 'overpowered' in this particular sense: the spells that beat out their competition by such a substantial margin, that you feel like you're crippling yourself/your party if you don't take them.

I'm curious to know if anyone else feels this way about these, or other, spells in the game.

The Exchange

Chains of light is another. Paralysis in which does not give cover so party members can cdg, based on a reflex save?

Magic jar, if I read what people are saying, but I've never used it before and am still trying to figure out how to use it.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

I saw Chains of Light used to shut down a very high level demon in one game I ran. Save or suck, party coup-de-graced the demon next round. So yeah, I'd say it's valid, though as such a high-level spell it isn't one of those I think about so much as the 2nd and 3rd level "gotta haves".

I know a local wizard in my PFS who uses magic jar to great effect. IDK if it fits my personal criteria for it, but it's certainly a circumstantially very-useful spell.


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See Invisibility or Glitterdust. I might not take both but I always get one of them
Invisibility
Greater Teleport
dispel magic
Greater Dispel Magic
Blessing of Fervor
Haste
read magic
detect magic
lesser restoration
Fly

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

I prefer Glitterdust to See Invis, as a general rule. See Invis only benefits one person on the party, and all it does is let you, well, see invis-- Glitterdust has lots of applications as general battlefield control, since it blinds enemies, and therefore reduces their odds of hitting your party, increases your party's odds of hitting them, and does it over multiple foes.

Not saying that See Invisibility doesn't have its uses-- it does, for sure. Just that between the two, I find Glitterdust to be far more bang for your buck.

Dispel Magic -- not one I usually take, though after watching an oracle use it well in one game I've been running lately, I may have to revisit that stance. It always feels so potentially dice-swingy to me, if you roll low on that caster check.

Blessing of Fervor is a good spell, but it grants (arguably) less all around benefits than haste, while being one spell level higher. There's lots of competition for that 4th level spell slot for me, so BoF isn't a 'must-have' the same way I feel haste is.

Read Magic and Detect magic: ha, yes, granted. :D

Lesser Restoration: Another one I almost never memorize, if scrolls are at all available in game. Since the casting time means I will almost never cast it in combat, I might as well save that spell slot for something with immediate usefulness, and wait til after combat to patch up ability damage.

(Sorry, none of this is at all meant as a "you're wrong on those spells!" I'm merely interested in seeing how our opinions as gamers vary on the 'must-haves', so your post is offering me exactly that. :) )


Blessing of Fervor also grants free metamagic feats but I agree for martials haste is the better spell. I also generally prefer glitterdust over see invis since its only a personal spell.


Dispel magic can remove debuffs or buffs. It can also undo traps and so on. It is not a spell that is used every day but it is a spell that is nice to have when you need it. I dont tend to prep more than use of it however.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Any teleporting magic (dimension door, word of recall, etc.)
Any flight magic (Fly, overland flight)
Any summon creature magic at highest level of current caster - if used creatively, it can be very versatile. Not just for trapfinding and combat anymore.

Simulacrum (Wow, this one can be so abusive if one is creative enough)

I also agree with Wraithstrike's list.

Rope trick is used a lot, yet I see it as useful rather than overpowered. My criteria is magic that can change a narrative unless the GM has a plot device to shut it down.


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Overpowered? Stuff like Simulacrum and Blood Money that explicitly let you break the game into a billion tiny pieces.

Annoyingly obsolete several skills and class abilities, or bypass plots entirely, and make up most of the endemic problem of spells?

Invisibility (Equivalent of 20 ranks in Stealth, starting at level 3).

Fly/Overland Flight (equivalent to infinity ranks in Climb, starting at level 5)

Teleport/Greater/Interplanetary (Bye-bye plots involving overland travel)

Endure Elements (starting at FIRST LEVEL any plots having to do with enduring the elements, ala Dark Sun style stuff or whatever, gone. Even for non-casters. 50 gp for 24 hours of nope in potion form.)

Aram Zey's Focus (Trapfinding in a can!)

And any spells like them. THOSE are really the problem with the game, at least in the sense that they perpetuate the "Neener neener magic makes anything non-magical you could do feel small in the pants" paradigm this game has baked into its very core.


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Rynjin wrote:

b

Endure Elements (starting at FIRST LEVEL any plots having to do with enduring the elements, ala Dark Sun style stuff or whatever, gone. Even for non-casters. 50 gp for 24 hours of nope in potion form.)

I had overlooked this spell. 24 hours of "F**@ you desert" is not going to allow me to run this Dark Sun campaign like I want to. I might have to nix this spell.


Speaking of, any chance of me being able to join that?

Also, since Psionics is a big part IIRC watch out for that one Power that lets you go without food or water for a day too.


Rynjin wrote:

Speaking of, any chance of me being able to join that?

Also, since Psionics is a big part IIRC watch out for that one Power that lets you go without food or water for a day too.

Yeah you can get in. It won't be for a few months though, but I will let you know when it comes up.


Paragon Surge. Only usable by half-elves, gives a free feat and an enhancement to your two best ability scores. Almost every casting class has access to this spell. I see it taken often.

Magic missile is a classic for when you need to add some unavoidable damage to your kit as very few monsters have a shield spell to block it.

Liberty's Edge

Glitterdust
Fly
Haste
Resist Energy
Endure Elements
Detect Magic
Lesser Restoration
Teleportation
Create Pit


Hmmm, if I look at a lot of the 'solid' spells out there, I would say that Cosmic Ray and Icy Prison are both very powerful. I mean, think about it: Cosmic Ray can deal up to 20d6 of 'untyped' damage and the fortitude save doesn't even cut the damage in half (really powerful for a level 6 spell).

In addition, Icy Prison is basically like Chains of Light, so it can end encounters very easily.

Also, Planeshift is absolutely bonkers when you think about it. It requires a will save that ISN'T mind-affecting, and if you fail, u basically just die (send them to the negative or positive energy planes and I'm pretty sure they won't survive for longer then 10 minutes). Heck, even the plane of fire or water could do the trick.

Shadow Lodge

Half the spells in the system should be bumped up to the next level.

Most of the rest should be bumped up 2 or more levels.

Scarab Sages

Protection from evil.

No level 1 spell should grant immunity to all mental domination (by evil creatures). That facet alone should ramp it up to something like a 4th or 5th level spell. I've seen players abuse this horribly (or try to if they haven't read it properly). "Oh, he's got wammied? I'll just cast protection from evil on him. That'll sort it out."

These tend to be the same players that spam detect magic. Identifying magic items by simply casting detect magic makes things a bit too easy. I don't mind if the player describes studying the item. it's when they want to identify it with a casual glance from 20' away outside the room because they're too paranoid to walk on the floor to get a proper look at whatever it is that's emitting that faint magic aura.

A lot of the spells from levels 7-9 seem to be almost entirely focussed on dealing damage, removing damage or preventing damage. There are more things in existence than damage. There are a lot of things, really big things, that magic can do with level 6 and lower spells that should probably be higher levels. Probably a lot of high level spells that don't need to be quite so high level as well :p.


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wraithstrike wrote:
lesser restoration

My oracle picked this up when we hit level 5, but my party was extremely vocal about me not picking it up at level 4. Is band-aid written on my forehead?


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
lesser restoration
My oracle picked this up when we hit level 5, but my party was extremely vocal about me not picking it up at level 4. Is band-aid written on my forehead?

LOL, it might be. You did not have to play a divine caster at all, so unless you asked for input I would say you were ok to wait until level 5.

Scarab Sages

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Back in the olden days being subjected to a haste spell would age all the targets 1 year. Consequently it was used sparingly and not frequently abused as it is now.

Healing was something you did not do during combat unless it was an emergency. Cure light wounds had a 5 segment casting time while daggers only had a 2 segment attack speed. And there was no concentration skill.

Player: I cast cure light wounds.

GM: Okay but he's got a dagger. It's got an attack speed of 2 so he gets to attack you two and a half times before your healing spell goes off and if he hits once you lose the spell. Get no healing, nothing.

Player: I know I know but we really need this damn it!

Except that while the dagger had an attack speed of 2 the guy wielding it only had 1 attack per round so it all came down to how the group interpreted the inconsistencies in the initiative rules.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

yeah, I'd have to say it all comes down to blood money.


Balgin wrote:
Healing was something you did not do during combat unless it was an emergency. Cure light wounds had a 5 segment casting time while daggers only had a 2 segment attack speed. And there was no concentration skill.

I was young enough and inexperienced enough to not know how quite a few of the rules worked - and weapon speed is an ideal example. Looking back now its pretty staggering. I loved reading the books but couldn't absorb all of the mechanics. We just took turns. Didn't exactly have a proper initiative order either. One side (either PCs or monsters) would go, then the other. Usually went clockwise around the table.


I posted about this here.

These plus Blood Money I would say are the most obvious. Haste is worth a mention though as even as a 4th and possibly as a 5th I belive most people would still cast it.


Balgin wrote:

Back in the olden days being subjected to a haste spell would age all the targets 1 year. Consequently it was used sparingly and not frequently abused as it is now.

Healing was something you did not do during combat unless it was an emergency. Cure light wounds had a 5 segment casting time while daggers only had a 2 segment attack speed. And there was no concentration skill.

Player: I cast cure light wounds.

GM: Okay but he's got a dagger. It's got an attack speed of 2 so he gets to attack you two and a half times before your healing spell goes off and if he hits once you lose the spell. Get no healing, nothing.

Player: I know I know but we really need this damn it!

Except that while the dagger had an attack speed of 2 the guy wielding it only had 1 attack per round so it all came down to how the group interpreted the inconsistencies in the initiative rules.

Assuming you are referring to AD&D (1st or 2nd ed.), it there is no speed "segment". Weapon speeds are just added to the initative roll, so the dagger guy is more likely to go before the healer. 1d10+5 vs 1d10+2, lowest go first.

Cure spells (and damage spells) were generally more powerful due to the fact that everyone had low hit points and did a fairly low amount of damage. There was no power attack, and most did not have damage bonus from strength.

Sovereign Court

The way I remember playing it, weapons and spells and whatnot had a speed of "+X" that you added to a 1d10 initiative roll. Daggers were very fast but not a lot of damage; big weapons were slower but did more damage. Wizard spells tended to be slower the higher the level, except for Power Word spells.

It had the interesting effect that if you had to fight a caster, you'd want a dagger for speed and to have a good chance to interrupt him. That was a reason to have multiple different weapons.

Grand Lodge

Aqueous Orb is the only one I haven't seen listed yet that I can think of off the top of my head.


Snowball...It's a Lesser Orb of Snow, except better than all the Lesser Orbs. Who thought this was a good idea.

Suffocate and Icy Prison are both SoDs with pretty good no-save riders attached. Nasty stuff.

Limited wish is utterly stupid when abused duplicating certain spells. Geas is the primary offender here.

Keep Watch is also pretty disgusting for it's level. It pretty much negates the problems with sleeping in dangerous places.

Entangle is pretty nasty if you know the terrain is appropriate for it.


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Aroden's ******-****ing Spellbane.


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Ashiel wrote:
Aroden's ******-****ing Spellbane.

Whats wrong with spellbane

It only shuts down pretty much anything and everything spell based that could harm a high level caster.

Whats so bad about that. Casters have to get something nice since a lot of martials are getting auto-crit confirmation or other awesome DPR boosters soon. It's only fair.


wraithstrike wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

b

Endure Elements (starting at FIRST LEVEL any plots having to do with enduring the elements, ala Dark Sun style stuff or whatever, gone. Even for non-casters. 50 gp for 24 hours of nope in potion form.)

I had overlooked this spell. 24 hours of "F**@ you desert" is not going to allow me to run this Dark Sun campaign like I want to. I might have to nix thi

s spell.

But remember,at its core Dark Sun is a low magic setting. As the DM, you decide how low you go

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Endure elements only protects you up to 140 degrees - I seem to recall that some of the Dark Sun deserts can get up to 160 degrees, but that may be only near the Valley of Dust and Fire. I think most areas are in the 120-140 range during the day.

I'm pretty sure the spell existed back in 2e. I think the cost of using up one first level spell slot per party member was considered enough, especially at low levels when it would take most of your daily spells. But 2e didn't have buying potions, so there was no way to spend trivial amounts of money to get spells.

Back on topic, I agree with a lot of the usual suspects. Haste, fly, and so forth tend to be staple spells that can be overused. I think spontaneous casters make them even more endemic - when you only have a few spells known, you're going to want workhorse spells useful in a variety of situations, not niche spells that you may use only once or twice. Sure, those niche spells might be awesome in their niche, but you can't afford to take them.

So we tend to see a lot of the same spells because those spells are versatile and easy to use well. Even prepared casters favor them because often you don't know the details of what you're facing so it's best to be prepared for nearly anything.


Snowblind wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Aroden's ******-****ing Spellbane.

Whats wrong with spellbane

It only shuts down pretty much anything and everything spell based that could harm a high level caster.

Whats so bad about that. Casters have to get something nice since a lot of martials are getting auto-crit confirmation or other awesome DPR boosters soon. It's only fair.

I'm trying to figure out if this post is being facetious or not


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CWheezy wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Aroden's ******-****ing Spellbane.

Whats wrong with spellbane

It only shuts down pretty much anything and everything spell based that could harm a high level caster.

Whats so bad about that. Casters have to get something nice since a lot of martials are getting auto-crit confirmation or other awesome DPR boosters soon. It's only fair.

I'm trying to figure out if this post is being facetious or not

Curses.

Poe strikes again.


It may be that I haven't run or played much PFS at the levels where Limited Wish come into play but what is the abuse of Geas with Limited Wish? Is it just a higher Caster Level and DC or is it something else? (and frankly I haven't ever seen Geas as particularly abusive of a spell - I've always treated it more as a roleplaying focused spell than anything too mechanically abusive)

Liberty's Edge

Rycaut wrote:
It may be that I haven't run or played much PFS at the levels where Limited Wish come into play but what is the abuse of Geas with Limited Wish? Is it just a higher Caster Level and DC or is it something else? (and frankly I haven't ever seen Geas as particularly abusive of a spell - I've always treated it more as a roleplaying focused spell than anything too mechanically abusive)

Geas doesn't offer a save, this is usually balanced out by its casting time. Casting it through limited wish removes said casting time.


Geas is 10 minute casting time with no save
Limited wish->Geas is 1 standard action to make someone do whatever you want ("obey me" is a good start, for example), no save.


Oh here is a dumb spell: Mage's Disjunction.


Well Limited Wish does require a 1500gp diamond so that is a possible way to limit its use (if you don't allow Blood Money - or if you do that would require 3 points of STR damage)

Personally I think given the example I would probably add a line to Limited Wish (in my home games) that "if a duplicated spell has a casting time of over 1 round, limited wish has a casting time of the duplicated spell" - it would rebalance for any spells (Geas or anything else) where the longer casting time is part of the balancing nature of that spell - limited wish would still have a higher caster level).

At that higher level it is worth noting as well that Limited Wish and Geas still need to break through spell resistance.

Also returning to the roleplaying aspects of Geas - I would probably only allow a relatively simple geas command if the casting time is shorter (if it is the full 10 minutes then I would allow a fairly detailed request). In any case I would say an intelligent target would try to subvert most commands (especially if they were contrary to their usual behaviors) and if they could result in death the geas would break (so "obey me" would be open-ended with a limited duration but wouldn't allow the caster to ask the target to enter battle against overwhelming odds)

In general I also find that the whole Enchantment (especially compulsion) school can be ethically troubling - so if the caster were lawful good (and/or if his party has some lawful and/or good players) I might note that this form of compulsion isn't lawful in many places (though this depends on your world - in Golarion slavery is legal in many places) and such compulsions aren't often seen as good actions - but this would vary considerably by the context and the actions forced upon someone.

In any case I would also note that most individuals subjected to a Geas or Quest against their will would bear a grudge (possibly less so if the actions demanded of them were in keeping with their own long term desires - but definitely the case if they were forced to do something against their usual nature.

(and yes I know that likely most players at the levels where they use a limited wish to cast geas against a foe aren't going to keep that foe around to bear that grudge...)

Silver Crusade

At low levels irridate can be very nasty to those with low fortitude saves. One of my games lost a character to it.


Rycaut wrote:

Well Limited Wish does require a 1500gp diamond so that is a possible way to limit its use (if you don't allow Blood Money - or if you do that would require 3 points of STR damage)

Personally I think given the example I would probably add a line to Limited Wish (in my home games) that "if a duplicated spell has a casting time of over 1 round, limited wish has a casting time of the duplicated spell" - it would rebalance for any spells (Geas or anything else) where the longer casting time is part of the balancing nature of that spell - limited wish would still have a higher caster level).

At that higher level it is worth noting as well that Limited Wish and Geas still need to break through spell resistance.

Also returning to the roleplaying aspects of Geas - I would probably only allow a relatively simple geas command if the casting time is shorter (if it is the full 10 minutes then I would allow a fairly detailed request). In any case I would say an intelligent target would try to subvert most commands (especially if they were contrary to their usual behaviors) and if they could result in death the geas would break (so "obey me" would be open-ended with a limited duration but wouldn't allow the caster to ask the target to enter battle against overwhelming odds)

In general I also find that the whole Enchantment (especially compulsion) school can be ethically troubling - so if the caster were lawful good (and/or if his party has some lawful and/or good players) I might note that this form of compulsion isn't lawful in many places (though this depends on your world - in Golarion slavery is legal in many places) and such compulsions aren't often seen as good actions - but this would vary considerably by the context and the actions forced upon someone.

In any case I would also note that most individuals subjected to a Geas or Quest against their will would bear a grudge (possibly less so if the actions demanded of them were in keeping with their own long term desires - but definitely the case if they...

At this stage a rod/metamagic gem of piercing, sure casting and dweomer essense can be tossed in to pass SR on anything near CR appropriate levels. 4000gp for an auto-win against a boss is a pretty good deal at this level.

You can't compel it to take actions that would result in certain death. Anything else is fair game, including fighting along side you so long as it has a non-trivial chance of living through it.

Once you get to talk to it, preventing it from subverting instructions isn't hard. Tell them to do the following:
-Act in the way you believe is in what I would consider my best interests

-Interpret everything I communicate to you in the way I want it to be interpreted and act based on those interpretations.

-Obey my instructions to the best of your abilities.

-Do not attempt to subvert my instructions.

-Do not attempt to think about subverting my instructions.

-Act and think as you believe I would want you to think.

-Do not deceive me or attempt to lie to me

-In the absence of orders from me to the contrary, act and think in the way you believe I would want you to given that I was in possession of all the knowledge you currently know.

And so on and so forth. Talk to it for a bit and see if it looks like it worked. Don't forget to ask it if you are missing a loophole.

Your GM will have a headache trying to subvert that. You can even keep reapplying the Geas to keep your geased bbeg yours forever. If the creature itself can cast geas, you can order it to put a geas on itself to keep it going (think of a phrasing that works for this, or even better, ask the creature for one - something like a 25 int dragon can probably think of an air tight geas for you).

The ethical issues are there. Bear in mind though that you aren't going to be using this on random thugs. You will be using this on powerful dragons, infernals, caster etc. The law isn't going to reach out this far in most cases, so that shouldn't be a problem(you are probably the one bringing the law to them). Your chaotic good teammates might object strongly to having it self inflict thought control on itself, however.


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Not that hard to subvert, especially not for a strong willed, evil type.

It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for certain powerful, evil types to believe that "your best interests" are best served by any and all other servants being eliminated, because you can't trust any of those others.

The thing about having a tiger by the tail is that you can never let go....

"But master, I know that I acted in your best interests. Your wife and children were merely a lever by which your enemies could work against you. With them gone, you are now more powerful and more free to pursue your goals. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt you will come to know this for the truth that it is. Believe in me, master; I am the only one you can trust."


Saldiven wrote:

Not that hard to subvert, especially not for a strong willed, evil type.

It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for certain powerful, evil types to believe that "your best interests" are best served by any and all other servants being eliminated, because you can't trust any of those others.

The thing about having a tiger by the tail is that you can never let go....

"But master, I know that I acted in your best interests. Your wife and children were merely a lever by which your enemies could work against you. With them gone, you are now more powerful and more free to pursue your goals. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt you will come to know this for the truth that it is. Believe in me, master; I am the only one you can trust."

I can't see how that doesn't breaks several of the commands I suggested. Depending on what screwy logic you use which ones it is exactly vary, but it does break them.

Act and think as you believe I would want you to think is the big one, though.


Limp Lash is the one that comes to mind. I am surprised it hasn't been said yet... maybe my group is using it wrong? Paralysis + Ability sap is SO FRIGGIN ANNOYING!


What's in the box? wrote:
Limp Lash is the one that comes to mind. I am surprised it hasn't been said yet... maybe my group is using it wrong? Paralysis + Ability sap is SO FRIGGIN ANNOYING!

If you move outside the range of the lash the spell ends.

It sucks for a stat dumping caster, but against a martial it will at most force them to take a move action or lose an attack hacking away at the lash. I would rather just glitterdust or hold person and not give the opponent any options.


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Snowblind wrote:
Saldiven wrote:

Not that hard to subvert, especially not for a strong willed, evil type.

It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for certain powerful, evil types to believe that "your best interests" are best served by any and all other servants being eliminated, because you can't trust any of those others.

The thing about having a tiger by the tail is that you can never let go....

"But master, I know that I acted in your best interests. Your wife and children were merely a lever by which your enemies could work against you. With them gone, you are now more powerful and more free to pursue your goals. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt you will come to know this for the truth that it is. Believe in me, master; I am the only one you can trust."

I can't see how that doesn't breaks several of the commands I suggested. Depending on what screwy logic you use which ones it is exactly vary, but it does break them.

Act and think as you believe I would want you to think is the big one, though.

Depends on how well they know you.

With the posited situation (powerful evil type), they may well be inclined to assume everybody thinks as they do until proven otherwise. That's a pretty common trope in fiction, where the villain doesn't understand The Power Of Love And Friendship or why the hero is persisting or any of a dozen other things.

So, if you're hitting a CE Red Great Wyrm with that, and give him those instructions, it's entirely plausible that his first act is "wipe out your friends".

Given that setup:

-Act in the way you believe is in what I would consider my best interests: So far as he knows, that's what he's doing.

-Interpret everything I communicate to you in the way I want it to be interpreted and act based on those interpretations: This would require him to be psychic. This instruction really doesn't fly all that well, because he doesn't inherently know your interpretation. It negates blatant word-twisting well, but this isn't a case of that.

-Obey my instructions to the best of your abilities: He's doing that.

-Do not attempt to subvert my instructions: Check

-Do not attempt to think about subverting my instructions: Check

-Act and think as you believe I would want you to think: Ultimately an extension of #1

-Do not deceive me or attempt to lie to me: Check

-In the absence of orders from me to the contrary, act and think in the way you believe I would want you to given that I was in possession of all the knowledge you currently know: Check

Not all that hard to screw with. Now, you can rein him in pretty quickly if he's attacking your party in front of you, but if he assumes that everybody is ultimately a ruthless, cold-hearted bastard, he's got an opening to kill everything you love. While not subverting your instructions or lying to you.

It all depends on the worldview of the target, and that's a loophole a GM can drive a truck through without trying.


Best hope that the villain subverted by limited wish-based geas doesn't hold to a worldview that everything is better off dead and remade into something undead, eh?

Nice points, kestrel287. ;)

It'd be rather amusing to watch a character voluntarily change their alignment using this kind of mechanics. Depending on the GM, your character just became his NPC.


I think many of the spells listed a best in class and they do change how the game is played.

The cliffs of insanity are not a challenge to 5th level party.

I think teleport would be made better by making int always scatter. It is great for getting to distant city but awful for getting into the king's bedchamber. Cities set up teleport traps that casters want to get stuck in so they end up in the town square. For small village aim high and use feather fall to land safely.

Simalcrim and planar binding can shatter a game.

Enlarge person is not OP in that is game breaking but is is really good.

Cummune without cost is know everything eventually.


Does the commune without cost mean that improved familiars who have a commune once a week ability are broken?

Liberty's Edge

Rycaut wrote:
Does the commune without cost mean that improved familiars who have a commune once a week ability are broken?

I don't know if I would call it broken, but it can be a very powerful tool to gather information. I would say it depends on your campaign and the amount of time that passes.

For example, in one campaign I am in there is little downtime, the past 10 sessions (or so) have taken place within 1 week. In that campaign it would be a nice thing for when you need it, but hardly something you can spam.

In another campaign I'm in each session is basically a new week (normally), having commune (for free) in that group would be fairly potent (though I don't think I'd call it broken).

To expand on this, the nature of the campaign matters too. If that second campaign I listed were to be a "mystery" styled campaign, where we are detectives or something, then being able to use commune every week would probably start approaching problematic levels.


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I've banned three spells outright in the game I'm running:

Blood Money - for obvious reasons.

Snowball - shouldn't exist.

Disable Construct - really shouldn't exist.

Though Snowball and Disable Construct aren't necessarily overpowered, they're spells that have been deliberately designed to get around intended limitations and drawbacks for spells.

Snowball is an elemental damage spell with evocation spell scaling that was made as a conjuration spell solely to get around spell resistance. It specifically contradicts the spell creation guidelines in Ultimate Magic.

Disable Construct is an even worse offender. It is, to my knowledge, the only enchantment school spell that targets an opponent that doesn't allow spell resistance. There's no justification for having this spell bypass spell resistance, and in fact the only reason it does is so that it can target golems.

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