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This has been an ongoing debate between me and some of the other gamers locally. The spell "Sleep" causes the following condition to be applied to affected targets "helpless".
The spell states on pg 344 " Sleeping creatures are helpless." It also states "Sleep does not target unconscious creatures".
Some members of the local PFS have decided that sleep must make you "unconscious" and "prone" seeing as to how that is what happens in the real world. This seems to make sleep more powerful then it is written. It is written to only render a person "helpless", not "unconscious" and "prone". It would seem to me that the spell is not designed to have you drop your weapon and go prone with all that is implied by the condition of "unconscious".
How many people do you know that sleep conscious and standing up?
How many people do you know that sleep conscious and standing up?
My roommate for one, however that still fails to answer the question of a magic spell that has a set number of conditions that it imposes and then people adding more without any rules to back them up.
If you want to rules lawyer sleep, then you go right ahead. I'll go ahead and continue to use common sense. People are unconscious when they sleep. People that fall asleep don't tend to remain standing. Horses, cows, and some other animals do.
"Sleeping creatures are helpless."
They are asleep. This is restating the rule (something particularly common in core rule books, if memory serves) that sleeping creatures are helpless. It is entirely reasonable to rule that you cannot continue to stand when unconscious.
Besides, if you fail the save, you're dead anyways, so who cares?
Or a Pod Person.
Most people who go unconscious standing up tend to fall down just like most people who die standing up will likely fall over. The rules dont say this but dont expect for it not to happen.
True. How many enemies who've had Sleep cast on them stay that way long enough for anything to happen before a, a teammate wakes them up or b, an enemy puts them past sleep and unconscious and into dead?
I think for survivability, I'd leave them standing. The horde of goblins won't really matter, but I can imagine the storm brewing if a PC took a nap and had extra issues once he/she was awoken.
Most people who fall over while asleep would wake up when they hit the floor. It's not an unreasonable question. All I can say is that I would expect the majority of GMs to say you fall over and it doesn't wake you up.
I don't think there's a clear answer to this for paralysis either.
If you cast sleep on someone hiding in a tree, do they fall out? I'd think a flying creature would fall and wake up when it hit the ground (if the falling damage didn't kill it); so falling out of the tree isn't worse than flying. The exception might be avians as they can remain perched while sleeping - bent knees locks the feet on the branch.
And horses and other beasts sleep standing up as well.
But I would go with it being a syncope (fainting) episode. No damage is done in a 0' fall, much like tripping, so I would just rule that they "FALL" asleep.
While it doesn't say they fall, it doesn't say they are standing, breathing, snoring, pumping blood through their veins or anything like it either.
I'd say they fall over....I mean they're asleep....I..I really don't see how there could be another way to see it.
Sounds a lot like the no dead condition.
Oh WAIT! Does this mean if you cast sleep on a paladin he FALLS? I think I've found the next paladin/alignment thread.
The rules are not going to go into every possible detail.
People who go to sleep standing up tend to fall over, and people who sleep are also unconscious.
It does not seem that difficult to me.
Someone can nitpick every little detail, but that causes a lot of problems.
An unconscious person cannot be woken up by normal means. That is completely different than being asleep. Even in Pathfinder it points out that you can wake up sleeping people. You cannot wake an unconscious person by slapping them.
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Maybe this might help.
Just putting this here
The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
This suggests that an unconscious or sleeping creature, since it is unable to make any decisions, cannot choose to attempt a saving throw against a harmless spell.
As for why sleeping=willing is a bad idea...
Some effects are really nasty when they go from willing only to willing + sleeping. Marionette possession is a good example - slumber hex followed by this gets you a Magic Jar'd body at level 5.
It would be nice to have clarification on how the sleep status condition works. It is used everywhere but is never actually defined.
I guess this is the crux of the matter then:
1) Can an unconscious person choose whether they'll attempt to save versus an incoming spell or not, despite not being aware enough to have any chance of recognizing it?
2) Is this decision made for them, based on the type of spell it is?
(Btw, I'm kind of playing devils advocate here since I think this is worthy of clarification.)
I am happy to be able to at least answer this question without a doubt, straight from the prd no less
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
If you are unconscious you are automatically considered willing. perfect for using that marionette possession on the recently fought enemy.
Maybe this might help.
I second this.
Although there may be outside cases where people can sleep standing up, it is an exception, and definitely NOT normal. Analyzing the meaning of individual words in a spell description can cause much confusion, read the game as if it was written for ten year olds, not college grads...
It causes less frustration.
I'd say they fall over....I mean they're asleep....I..I really don't see how there could be another way to see it.
Sounds a lot like the no dead condition.
Oh WAIT! Does this mean if you cast sleep on a paladin he FALLS? I think I've found the next paladin/alignment thread.
And he also fatigued because he "slept" in heavy armor.
Also, if sleeping (unconcious) creature can not choose to attempt savign throw then why Nightmare have one at all?
P.S. While i think target falls unconcious, even modern scinece not sure what "sleep" actually is, and since low-level locomotion is not controlled by cortex, we can assume that magical spell that sends cortex to sleep may not affect brain stem or whatever else allows you to subconciously stand still.
I take it you didn't read earlier posts in this thread? That section of the rules was already brought up, by me no less.
I actually did read the rest of the thread, but the question you stated had no reference to the sleep spell at all. All you asked was "Can an unconscious person choose whether they'll attempt to save versus an incoming spell or not". And that answer is very clear.
Now whether or not the Sleep spell makes a target unconscious seems to be the debate in this thread, so maybe the better question is, does the sleep spell make the target unconscious? I won't get into whether or not it does, but if the target is unconscious the rules are clear that they are considered willing for spell targeting.
I agree with you, casting marionette possesion mid-battle would be a very hard thing to do if you didn't come into the fight with foreknowledge.
EDIT: I understand what you mean now, sorry for my confusion, you are referencing this
"Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality."
I would think you have to be conscious to choose. The creature is choosing, not the player and the creature cannot choose if they aren't aware of the choice. I will try to find something to back that up though.
You should tell your roommate, he needs the 'Sleep Standing Up" feat.
While I have enjoyed the debate on helpless vs unconscious, I think the main question got lost. The spell sleep is a compulsion, you are overriding the targets normal thought process and telling them what to do, in this case it's go to sleep.
To me that means they complete the action as they can within their actions, they don't go to the bathroom, wash their face and put on their PJs, but they still have some bodily control as they go down. I always envisioned it like the classic fantasy where they give a big yawn, then curl up where they are. They don't disarm, they don't put themselves in immediate danger such as face first in a puddle, but unless they specifically sleep standing up they go prone. Only other reason might be if they are already in a sleep-able condition, such as sitting or ensnared in a web etc. This also prevents creatures from falling from trees or ship rigging as they find a secure way to sleep.
This also makes sleep effects more stealthy. Targets may make some noise as they lay down or get comfortable, but they don't crash to the floor or let their weapon simply smash into the ground. All other targets might hear would be a yawn and some shuffling, nothing extremely suspicious.
Now ducks require failing two sleep spells to actually go to sleep, but that's just a known fact.
This thread is from 2015.
And we're on a new edition of Pathfinder.
Those statements out the way, ask your GM.
Most people I know are going to rule you fall prone and drop anything your holding, assuming someone thinks about how suddenly falling asleep should go. Think about it like making someone suddenly narcoleptic for a short time period.