Ranged Attacks and Monster Hit Point changes


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

As far as ranged attacks goes, I like the future plans for needing ammo, line of sight, and arcane spell failure; however, with the changes to the monster's hit points, wont the buff they give to melee attacks not truly be realized, and in fact, the pain will be worsened when they turn that buff off.

Example: To offset the fact that ammo, line of sight, and arcane spell failure wont be released for at least a couple more months, they are going to buff melee attacks; removing the melee attack buff in the future.

Ryan understands that there will certainly be pain felt to the melee attackers when the buff is removed, but I think that is fine, as the pain will be across the board because range attacks got more difficult at the same time.

However, they are also giving monsters more Hit Points. Now by increasing the amount of Hit Points for monsters, you are essentially negating the melee attack buff that you are giving, at least for PvE (depending, of course, on the amount of HP increase and the amount of melee attack buff given).

So once you remove that melee attack buff, wont it then be felt twice as hard?

Goblin Squad Member

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Ranged attack is still rooted, and due to the lag involved with continuing to fire even after the first target is down, leaves the archer / caster vulnerable to additional attackers, being unable to move or attack (even after switching to melee) for an additional round.

This is compounded even greater when fighting critters that have stun lock, ie. Alpha Wolves, Bandit Archers, Goblin Shamans, certain Ogre (forget which ones), etc..

Making PVE content even more difficult and requiring even larger grouping, when the server population is about to decline (end of KS month 4) is a bad idea.

Goblin Squad Member

I still have concerns moving to a rootless range option. I actually support it because no one likes to remain stationary, but I fear the Ranger/Wizard combo when this happens.

Cast EF and kite for days!

Goblin Squad Member

Atheory wrote:

I still have concerns moving to a rootless range option. I actually support it because no one likes to remain stationary, but I fear the Ranger/Wizard combo when this happens.

Cast EF and kite for days!

Kiting is offset by the expense of ammo, when acting solo or in a pair. Melee attacks are free of ammo cost, and will force ranged attackers to either work in groups and support melee from range or for ranged to switch to melee more often.

Goblin Squad Member

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In theory yes, but this is a GW production. I expect to see that balance in 2 years! :P

Goblin Squad Member

When a player moves during a cast it should be interrupted.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

AGC Ronyel wrote:

As far as ranged attacks goes, I like the future plans for needing ammo, line of sight, and arcane spell failure; however, with the changes to the monster's hit points, wont the buff they give to melee attacks not truly be realized, and in fact, the pain will be worsened when they turn that buff off.

Example: To offset the fact that ammo, line of sight, and arcane spell failure wont be released for at least a couple more months, they are going to buff melee attacks; removing the melee attack buff in the future.

Ryan understands that there will certainly be pain felt to the melee attackers when the buff is removed, but I think that is fine, as the pain will be across the board because range attacks got more difficult at the same time.

However, they are also giving monsters more Hit Points. Now by increasing the amount of Hit Points for monsters, you are essentially negating the melee attack buff that you are giving, at least for PvE (depending, of course, on the amount of HP increase and the amount of melee attack buff given).

So once you remove that melee attack buff, wont it then be felt twice as hard?

The main advantage of range ATM is the ability to kill a mob before it reaches you - most T2 bow users can 1-shot bandit recruits omega wolves and goblins, thinning out camps to the few tougher mobs. higher T2 can 1 shot most whites.

Yellows and Reds are all killable in 2-3 shots with relative efficiency. Meaning you can kill at max range and still turn and leash the rest.

By increasing the HPs of mobs ranged will have a harder time clearing camps solo.

Melee right now have a hard time dealing with large groups. they need to use attacks like whirlwind to thin out the whites then tank the rest, running if they need to. often the presence of 2-3 reds can either stun lock or DPS a melee down too fast to take out larger camps.

The boost in DPS for melee should (in theory) enable melee to dispatch white and yellows much quicker and thus win over larger camps while still maintaining enough stamina to use combos and dispatching enough quickly to at least give them a chance to turn and run.

Goblin Squad Member

Quijenoth wrote:

The main advantage of range ATM is the ability to kill a mob before it reaches you - most T2 bow users can 1-shot bandit recruits omega wolves and goblins, thinning out camps to the few tougher mobs. higher T2 can 1 shot most whites.

Yellows and Reds are all killable in 2-3 shots with relative efficiency. Meaning you can kill at max range and still turn and leash the rest.

By increasing the HPs of mobs ranged will have a harder time clearing camps solo.

Melee right now have a hard time dealing with large groups. they need to use attacks like whirlwind to thin out the whites then tank the rest, running if they need to. often the presence of 2-3 reds can either stun lock or DPS a melee down too fast to take out larger camps.

The boost in DPS for melee should (in theory) enable melee to dispatch white and yellows much quicker and thus win over larger...

This seems to me to be pretty balanced, why the change?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Is there any clarification about whether melee range cantrips and orisons are intended to consume charges, and will not be buffed, or are in the same class as longsword attacks and will be, or neither?

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

To melee you need to be able to take damage - its far easier to kite.

Kiting has been semi nerfed but with 2-3 shots at max range bow users are still abusing it to semi kite - the risk then is solely on the melee who actually has to get hit.

many creatures stun and thus those learning combat will find that if they melee they are going to die, if they range then they can run away.

end result- Melee sucks, range for the win.

Goblin Squad Member

Quijenoth wrote:


The boost in DPS for melee should (in theory) enable melee to dispatch white and yellows much quicker and thus win over larger...

This is what I am trying to point out though. Im not convinced that the boost in melee DPS will allow us to dispatch mobs any faster because they are also increasing mob hit points at the same time. So, is melee even going to notice that they got a buff in dps for PvE? And if not, then that is REALLY going to suck even harder when they remove that buff.

That was my concern.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Quijenoth wrote:


end result- Melee sucks, range for the win.

This isn't universal. Actually most of my members tend to do melee and not range. Maybe I'm too generous with handing out replacement armour ...

But at least we should be less affected when ammunition comes in.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

AGC Ronyel wrote:
That was my concern.

If done right the DPS boost and HP boost will see 2 things - larger chucks taken away from yellows and reds and less 1 hit wonders from white mobs.

ranged should take 1 extra shot on most mobs while melees should need less hits to kill

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:


Kiting is offset by the expense of ammo, when acting solo or in a pair. Melee attacks are free of ammo cost, and will force ranged attackers to either work in groups and support melee from range or for ranged to switch to melee more often.

This is completely untrue. An archer that runs out of ammo will just run away from combat if he hasn't killed the melee character yet. This is not balance its just range murdering everything. If melee can't charge and hit moving targets by the time they put ammo in and free the range people there will be no point to playing melee.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Phyllain wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:


Kiting is offset by the expense of ammo, when acting solo or in a pair. Melee attacks are free of ammo cost, and will force ranged attackers to either work in groups and support melee from range or for ranged to switch to melee more often.
This is completely untrue. An archer that runs out of ammo will just run away from combat if he hasn't killed the melee character yet. This is not balance its just range murdering everything. If melee can't charge and hit moving targets by the time they put ammo in and free the range people there will be no point to playing melee.

How is this balanced in every other MMO?

Melee usually have a reliable "charge" ability, and with an ability to "slow" or "immobilize" (rooting) their target.

Goblin Squad Member

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That is literally exactly what I said, thank you.

Goblin Squad Member

AGC Ronyel wrote:
Quijenoth wrote:


The boost in DPS for melee should (in theory) enable melee to dispatch white and yellows much quicker and thus win over larger...

This is what I am trying to point out though. Im not convinced that the boost in melee DPS will allow us to dispatch mobs any faster because they are also increasing mob hit points at the same time. So, is melee even going to notice that they got a buff in dps for PvE? And if not, then that is REALLY going to suck even harder when they remove that buff.

That was my concern.

A straight HP buff will mainly effect the ability to Alpha. With higher NPC HP it is likely that T1+2 bows will no longer one-shot basic goblins after the change for example and you may need a T2 plus bow with good RAB to achieve that. (note that the only reason one-shotting is significant at all in game is the weird way it does not aggro the rest of the mob). Of course once you have T2 gear one-shotting starter mobs is sort of irrelevant anyway.

In terms of more serious targets, the real issue with something like a Purple Ustalav General is not his big HP it is getting past his resistances. A melee DPS bump will help a lot there and more than compensate for the extra HP.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Phyllain wrote:
That is literally exactly what I said, thank you.

Well not "exactly". As I said, it is there, just not working that well. The delay in hitting the key, and the ability actually firing and then the lag between no longer hitting the key and the ability still firing, is a real pain in in the butt.

Now they have said that the keystroke fix is planned (currently it fires when you release, not when you press. This may improve overall combat performance, especially in eliminating the delay (lag) and misfires.

Goblin Squad Member

It is kind of exactly what Phyllain said.

Phy said that if Ranged combatants can move while attacking before Melee can reliably apply CC, then Melee will be completely pushed out of PvP. You said that yes, other games balance Ranged by giving Melee reliable means of applying CC.

Whee, tautology!

The current issues with Melee combat have nothing to do with when the attack fires, and everything to do with the desync between client character location and server character location, compounded with the fact that the server seems to do very little to mitigate the differences. You can very, very easily demonstrate that key press timing has very little effect by using trigger macros on all of your abilities. I guarantee you that you will see absolutely no difference.


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A Maneuver:Redouble will definitely help the fighter's survivability. Oh look! I have one in the bank for trade!
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Goblin Squad Member

Or pickup Channel Positive Energy and get back twice as much HP for no power cost!

Is that fixed in EE7 btw?


Or do both!

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tink wrote:

Or pickup Channel Positive Energy and get back twice as much HP for no power cost!

Is that fixed in EE7 btw?

Well now, that kinda depends what you mean by "fixed" .


Basically it isn't a melee buff for PvE. Because they raised the monster HP it is just an indirect method of nerfing ranged characters and another step towards forced grouping.

For PvP it *is* a melee buff... one that is probably well deserved at the moment, at least until fighter charges are dependable.

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