I've been running the Iron Gods Adventure Path for my group and have, so far, met with great enjoyment for all. However, in reading ahead I've come across a couple matters regarding Casandalee that I can't find references for.
First off, her ability to create an AI aggregate. I know she can interface via her wireless with devices remotely, but what are the actual mechanics for taking over a robot. The Technology Guide describes the template once it's done, but what about the actual process? Is there a skill check required? Does the robot in question get a saving throw? What sort of action does it take on her part? If the robot wanders out of range does it revert to its previous programming?
Secondly, her Distrust of Robots trait. It mentions that "Future events in the Iron Gods Adventure Path may give the
PCs a chance to help Casandalee remove this disadvantage", but I've been unable to find any future mention of such events. Was that left out, or is it left to the DM's imagination, and if so, what suggestions might anyone have?
Finally, her entry in VotBC finishes with "as the PCs grow to better understand Casandalee, her personality will begin to stabilize. See "Palace of Fallen Stars" for how the PCs can help the AI adjust to her new life." I've read Palace of Fallen Stars and the Divinity Drive backwards and forwards and found no mention of stabilizing Casandalee's personality, and indeed what the consequences of doing so/failing to do so might be. Thoughts, comments, suggestions?
I'm running the final session of Iron Gods tonight and my party hasn't even talked to Casandalee other than the info dump at the end of book 4. She got tossed into the pack and forgotten. She just doesn't have any relevance to anything else that's going on plot-wise so it's been hard to make her matter to the party.
A possibility, certainly. I don't think it likely in this case, though. Our party's rogue is a formerly atheist android now suffering a crisis of identity after her death at Meyanda's hands and subsequent afterlife experience and scroll-fueled resurrection, and our oracle is of a Metal mystery currently agonizing over the metaphysical consequences of having offed Hellion, potentially part of his collective source of divine magic. Given that, I'm thinking they'll both potentially have an empathy with Casandalee.
Given that, and that I'm taken with the concept of having a sort of Cortana-esque companion, I may need to make adjustments if she's as irrelevant to the story as you say.
James Jacobs revealed on the boards that Casandalee's part was cut down in the editing phase of Iron Gods--originally she was supposed to have been left insane by her experiences at the hands of the Dominion, and the PCs would be able to help her stabilize throughout modules 5 and 6.
Would you know where, or are you just gonna let us guess:-)
Well I'll just wait for a link or the T-Rex himself to give the lowdown, I'm not wading through that, I'll snap just like poor Casandalee:-p
I can't exactly recall at the moment, and I don't have access to my copies of the books, but I believe the robot got some sort of will save. I'll see if I can post more info once I can get to my books. Also, I may be wrong, but I always assumed making an aggregate basically meant she was inhabiting the robot, and she now controlled it, meaning it wouldn't wander out of range or do anything by itself. However, if Casandalee were to make her robotic body walk too far away from her composite AI core, she would lose control of the 'bot. This could be easily remedied by having the 'bot carry the core, or simply making sure she doesn't venture too far.
The whole robotic distrdut thing, I would just have her slowly get not accustomed to robots the more she encounters them. After several encounters, perhaps she finally obtains the courage to interface with one, albeit a low CR specimen, and from there on her confidence grows.
The same goes for emotional state. The more time she spends around the supportive PCs (well, hopefully they're supportive), the better she gets. Make it gradual.
For the robot aggregate/robojack mechanics just do opposed charisma checks. Similar to sentient magic items. Your other questions... not sure to be honest. Im still in TCT and I tend to solve problems as the arise. But I did not notice either issue you mentioned. I'll need to think about both a bit more.
Would love to see more details from Paizo if they had it about her insanity. As a 5e player I'd probably just use the 5e rules on madness and randomly roll not he tables.
I want to point out I did searches for Casandralee and "Iron Gods" and "Iron Gods cut" and "restore AI" - nothing - on the entire message board.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I also did these searches in Google - and other than a very good interview with Mr. Jacobs prior to Iron Gods release I had forgotten about - nothing new or illuminating popped up there either.
If this topic was discussed - it's under a different subject matter and only tangentially related at best, and therefore almost impossible to track down.
*THAT* being said I think it's a valid question *to* ask Mr. Jacobs (I have no idea if he'll browse this thread again - history shows he has a high tolerance for criticism however) - if not I'd post it in his 'ask James Jacobs' thread - as this topic really isn't rules based he's more likely to answer.
As to distrust of robots - my personal take on it would be to make it easy if the party has an android in it -
My suggestion - pickup a supplement called 'ultimate relationships' it's a few bucks on this site - and create a 'relationship tree' for casandralee based on the android players interactions with her - with milestones that let her begin to trust the player more and more.
I have to say I like that system for long term NPC interactions and how it provides a nice structure and guide for the GM to work on a progression that feels more natural (for those of us that have a hard time working that out on the fly).
Just my 2 cents.
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My party is guaranteed to have an android - one of my players is super excited for this Path, and he has an android concept all planned out.
For those familiar with Ultimate Relationships, I know it's associated with the Far East Adventure Path (wink wink, etc). Is it just an expansion of the existing mechanics in that Path? Or is there something unique to UR?
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I think part of the problem is that her development should be organic - so much so that I'm not sure ironclad mechanics are the best way of going about it. I'd rather develop it through roleplay and use skills and dice and such to augment that. (I have the same issue with WotR's damsel-in-distress, for the record.)
That said... in the future, explicitly stating that a future volume will develop things further (see also Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth) might not be the best idea. Apparently the editors aren't always on the same page. :)
My party is guaranteed to have an android - one of my players is super excited for this Path, and he has an android concept all planned out.
For those familiar with Ultimate Relationships, I know it's associated with the Far East Adventure Path (wink wink, etc). Is it just an expansion of the existing mechanics in that Path? Or is there something unique to UR?
I bought both products - the Ultimate relationships product is the 'system' to build a relationship tree for an NPC and how to build milestones and such to make a progression - the 'far east' product is essentially the framework used and built for the entire 'far east' AP - even if you don't use that AP for the cost it's a nice add on as it shows in detail how to use the system to build a relationship arc for NPC's that will be with the party for a great deal of time.
In essence it boils down to determining backstory and conversations that the NPC will have with a character (or party) and how they behave - and then being able to 'level up' that relationship via conversation, deeds, and or gifts which culminate into a milestone moment - these are skill checks (meant to be tailored to a skill a player has) that if successful progress the NPC to the next phase where they open up a bit more, and such.
It's not overly complicated - however a straight reading of the system seemed so at first glance, and it wasn't until I read through a completed 'tree' that how to use it made sense for me.
I do recall this being discussed before hand, including James Jacobs, though I can't remember where. I do remember, however, that the answers weren't very solid, just that they originally intended on adding the info in later books, but due to word count and such they decided to cut it before they even created the rules for it, and ended up forgetting they had said anything about it in earlier books. So, in short, though these rules of emotional stabilization and robot distrust elimination were referenced, they never actually existed.
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Well, after a day or so I managed to locate my brain, and found the rules for her hacking into robots, at least (listed under the Treasures section about her Compact AI Core). Thanks for the clarification and suggestions for my other questions, all. I'll put on my miner's helmet and start digging through the Ask James Jacobs thread. If I don't come back, tell my wife I love her.
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Well, after a day or so I managed to locate my brain, and found the rules for her hacking into robots, at least (listed under the Treasures section about her Compact AI Core). Thanks for the clarification and suggestions for my other questions, all. I'll put on my miner's helmet and start digging through the Ask James Jacobs thread. If I don't come back, tell my wife I love her.
Good luck. :)
I already ran a search... but that's all it was, a quick search. It may have been complicated by spoiler tags, or someone misspelling "Casandalee", or who-knows-what.
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I've been running the Iron Gods Adventure Path for my group and have, so far, met with great enjoyment for all. However, in reading ahead I've come across a couple matters regarding Casandalee that I can't find references for.
First off, her ability to create an AI aggregate. I know she can interface via her wireless with devices remotely, but what are the actual mechanics for taking over a robot. The Technology Guide describes the template once it's done, but what about the actual process? Is there a skill check required? Does the robot in question get a saving throw? What sort of action does it take on her part? If the robot wanders out of range does it revert to its previous programming?
Secondly, her Distrust of Robots trait. It mentions that "Future events in the Iron Gods Adventure Path may give the
PCs a chance to help Casandalee remove this disadvantage", but I've been unable to find any future mention of such events. Was that left out, or is it left to the DM's imagination, and if so, what suggestions might anyone have?
Finally, her entry in VotBC finishes with "as the PCs grow to better understand Casandalee, her personality will begin to stabilize. See "Palace of Fallen Stars" for how the PCs can help the AI adjust to her new life." I've read Palace of Fallen Stars and the Divinity Drive backwards and forwards and found no mention of stabilizing Casandalee's personality, and indeed what the consequences of doing so/failing to do so might be. Thoughts, comments, suggestions?
Okay then, since it appears I haven't discussed this yet... here goes!
The process of her taking over a robot is detailed under the rules for the compact AI core on page 62 of Valley of the Brain Collectors. To do so, the compact AI core must be within 60 feet of the target robot, and she must take a standard action to attempt to gain control. The robot gets a Will save to resist, which is equal to DC 10 + 1/2 the AI's CR + it's Charisma modifier. In this case, that means a DC 21 Will Save to avoid being usurped by Casandalee. This control remains permanent as long as the compact AI core remains within 60 feet of the robot; the assumption is that the robot carries the core on it or in a bag or has it inserted into its chassis or whatever. She can only aggregate one robot at a time, and as long as her distrust of robots remains, she can't aggregate a robot of CR 9 or higher.
The Distrust of Robots was intended to be something that the PCs could fix in the last adventure by installing a specific memory facet into the AI core. Specifically, the psyche facet, once installed into Casandalee's AI, removes her distrust of robots, since it bolsters her sense of self and enhances her ability to resist peril and danger. I just forgot to add that relatively important line of text to the facet's description, alas.
And finally, the bit about her personality being unstable was ORIGINALLY a disadvantage she suffered, in addition to the weakness to robots. It was far too complicated, though, and when I realized I could do the same exact thing by giving her a new oracle curse (a solution that elegantly used up less room AND gave us a new oracle curse for folks to play with), I switched it over to that. But then forgot to cut that final paragraph referencing further information about stabilizing her personality in the next adventure. Since her shattered psyche was an oracle curse, it's not something that she SHOULD be able to lose, after all.
(For those who are curious, the original non-oracle curse version of her shattered psyche was essentially a long table of about a half-dozen different personalities from her previous android lives that she'd randomly shuffle between now and then when trigger events, such as being damaged or startled or confused or the like, took place. Each time she switched personalities, she gained a new boon and disadvantage, and there was originally going to be a detailed subplot in "Palace of Fallen Stars" where the PCs got to know these six or so personalities and helped her decide which one to keep. That whole subplot ended up being cut early on when it became apparent that "Palace of Fallen Stars" needed some extensive restructuring and rewriting of the adventure, and that restructuring would not afford much room at all for side plots such as this, so that helped inform my decision to shift away from this element and make it into a much simpler oracle curse. And again... I then forgot to delete that last paragraph on her page.)
Hope that clears things up! Sorry for the confusion!
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Well I'll just wait for a link or the T-Rex himself to give the lowdown, I'm not wading through that, I'll snap just like poor Casandalee:-p
Answered above.
As it turns out, sometimes I have other things going on here at work, or in my real life, and when I post a reply to a question on a thread at the end of the work day, it might be 12 to 24 hours before I'm able to post a follow up.
I knew I wasn't going to be able to provide the information I just posted above at the time, and honestly DID think I'd already done it somewhere else. Since I didn't have the time to post that big block of text at the moment, I challenged the might of the internet to come help and seek out if I'd posted it before, hoping that I had, and hoping that some helpful soul would be able to provide the information more quickly than I could.
I'd like to think my track record here on these boards was good enough that folks knew that I would eventually (and likely relatively quickly, as in within 24 hours) get a more informative post up online, but apparently that's not the case, and as such, I suppose I should refrain from trying to be casual about how I post to these threads. Sometimes I loose track of the fact that I'm not just another gamer and that the words I post here carry additional weight, and for that, and for my misplaced attempt at humor to tide this question over for the hours it would take before I had the chance to post a more in-depth reply, I apologize.
So yes, as Liz says... don't be insulting. Be patient instead. It makes for a nicer environment here. Thanks.
Well I apologize as well, I've been kicked around by the powers that be in my life more than usual lately, I just felt like I needed to stand up to something I guess, not saying its right, just explaining, sorry :-)
edit: and no need to apologize i was the one in the wrong, like i said its been hard the last week or so, not a lot of bright spots, which made me overly sensitive, Liz is right i was a jerk:-)
there was originally going to be a detailed subplot in "Palace of Fallen Stars" where the PCs got to know these six or so personalities and helped her decide which one to keep.
Awesome! I'm doing this. #yoink
The process of her taking over a robot is detailed under the rules for the compact AI core on page 62 of Valley of the Brain Collectors. To do so, the compact AI core must be within 60 feet of the target robot, and she must take a standard action to attempt to gain control. The robot gets a Will save to resist, which is equal to DC 10 + 1/2 the AI's CR + it's Charisma modifier. In this case, that means a DC 21 Will...
Perfect, thanks JJ. How long before you make a 5e adventure path/super-module? Do I need to talk to Mike Mearls to get this done!?
I'd like to think my track record here on these boards was good enough that folks knew that I would eventually (and likely relatively quickly, as in within 24 hours) get a more informative post up online, but apparently that's not the case, and as such, I suppose I should refrain from trying to be casual about how I post to these threads. Sometimes I loose track of the fact that I'm not just another gamer and that the words I post here carry additional weight, and for that, and for my misplaced attempt at humor to tide this question over for the hours it would take before I had the chance to post a more in-depth reply, I apologize.
Don't take it personally. Its the internet after all. Though I appreciate its difficult sometimes NOT to take it personally.
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The process of her taking over a robot is detailed under the rules for the compact AI core on page 62 of Valley of the Brain Collectors. To do so, the compact AI core must be within 60 feet of the target robot, and she must take a standard action to attempt to gain control. The robot gets a Will save to resist, which is equal to DC 10 + 1/2 the AI's CR + it's Charisma modifier. In this case, that means a DC 21 Will...Perfect, thanks JJ. How long before you make a 5e adventure path/super-module? Do I need to talk to Mike Mearls to get this done!?
I normally never say never, since a lot can change in the future...
...but at this point, I feel PRETTY confident that my days doing official D&D products are behind me.
Mr Jacobs I'm in love with the idea of having them choose which personality to keep. Were any of the boons and drawbacks ever created? How about the personalities themselves, were any ever defined before it was cut? If the answer is no I'll try to make up my own, but I'd love to hear about any official / unofficial framework that may have been put together. Anything the writers at Paizo came up with would surely outshine my feeble attempts after all.
Thanks for always trying to answer our slightly inane questions!
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Mr Jacobs I'm in love with the idea of having them choose which personality to keep. Were any of the boons and drawbacks ever created? How about the personalities themselves, were any ever defined before it was cut? If the answer is no I'll try to make up my own, but I'd love to hear about any official / unofficial framework that may have been put together. Anything the writers at Paizo came up with would surely outshine my feeble attempts after all.
Thanks for always trying to answer our slightly inane questions!
I'll double check tomorrow at work, but I suspect they were created but deleted.
Thank you for coming back to answer, Mr. Jacobs. I'm glad everyone is friendly now. :)
I'm also interested in seeing anything that may have been written on the topic. Worst case scenario, if it's all been deleted already, we can brainstorm right here.
Ditto on every surface. :)
Okay; I checked, and it turns out I didn't keep the words at all. They're gone. Sorry, folks!
I appreciate the response though! You folks at Paizo have some of the best PR I've ever seen in any company.
On to pressing matters (or fun ones, who's counting), Mr. Jacobs said a half dozen or so personalities, and it's as good a number as any. Considering she had six lives, Casandalee could have done just about anything. I'd probably start off with standard tropes to begin any discussion for personalities and develop them from there (easy way to round them out), like an intelligent wizard-esque personality, a brutish fighter one, a sketchy rogue, a serene monk, a wisecracking bard, and a wise cleric.
It's late and I have work in the AM, so I'll brainstorm more tomorrow night, but I want to hear people's opinions on what personalities they'd like to see Casandalee have. Have at it, I'll put in more effort tomorrow.
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So here's a noodle-melting idea for everyone regarding Casandalee.
What if Sidrah Imeruss wasn't really human? You'd have to play with the timeline a little, but if the "official" Technic League story is that they killed Sidrah, it removes incentive from future league members to go look for her. Sidrah's remains are never discussed, nor what they did with her body. What if Sidrah fled into the Silver Mount after the assassination attempt and went on to her next life there.
This would turn Sidrah into one of Casandalee's personalities and allow the PCs to (potentially) meet Sidrah and learn more about the ancient history of the Technic League and Androffa/Divinity's mission.
Yeah, Casandalee does predate the Technic League, but I do like the idea! Anyways, you could make it that Sidrah is the most elusive of her personalities, limiting the Technic League info.
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Okay; I checked, and it turns out I didn't keep the words at all. They're gone. Sorry, folks!I appreciate the response though! You folks at Paizo have some of the best PR I've ever seen in any company.
On to pressing matters (or fun ones, who's counting), Mr. Jacobs said a half dozen or so personalities, and it's as good a number as any. Considering she had six lives, Casandalee could have done just about anything. I'd probably start off with standard tropes to begin any discussion for personalities and develop them from there (easy way to round them out), like an intelligent wizard-esque personality, a brutish fighter one, a sketchy rogue, a serene monk, a wisecracking bard, and a wise cleric.
It's late and I have work in the AM, so I'll brainstorm more tomorrow night, but I want to hear people's opinions on what personalities they'd like to see Casandalee have. Have at it, I'll put in more effort tomorrow.
Casandalee actually had a LOT more than six lives. I chose a half dozen because that was a good variety for numbers but also a manageable number. Feel free to make the number whatever you wish. Up to 113, of course!
Casandalee actually had a LOT more than six lives. I chose a half dozen because that was a good variety for numbers but also a manageable number. Feel free to make the number whatever you wish. Up to 113, of course!Okay; I checked, and it turns out I didn't keep the words at all. They're gone. Sorry, folks!I appreciate the response though! You folks at Paizo have some of the best PR I've ever seen in any company.
On to pressing matters (or fun ones, who's counting), Mr. Jacobs said a half dozen or so personalities, and it's as good a number as any. Considering she had six lives, Casandalee could have done just about anything. I'd probably start off with standard tropes to begin any discussion for personalities and develop them from there (easy way to round them out), like an intelligent wizard-esque personality, a brutish fighter one, a sketchy rogue, a serene monk, a wisecracking bard, and a wise cleric.
It's late and I have work in the AM, so I'll brainstorm more tomorrow night, but I want to hear people's opinions on what personalities they'd like to see Casandalee have. Have at it, I'll put in more effort tomorrow.
I meant she had six lives for us to play with :) Didn't word it correctly I was tired.
Like you said six seems like a good number, and I wholeheartedly agree. Fits a d6 roll neatly, also any more personalities than that could just become troublesome as fleshing out all of them could prove extremely time consuming.
The main personality would of course be the oracle Casandalee, so I'll probably remove cleric from my original list, as there's some overlap there.
Anyway, I just got home from work so I'll be brainstorming and hopefully come up with something or another.
So here's a noodle-melting idea for everyone regarding Casandalee.
What if Sidrah Imeruss wasn't really human? You'd have to play with the timeline a little, but if the "official" Technic League story is that they killed Sidrah, it removes incentive from future league members to go look for her. Sidrah's remains are never discussed, nor what they did with her body. What if Sidrah fled into the Silver Mount after the assassination attempt and went on to her next life there.
This would turn Sidrah into one of Casandalee's personalities and allow the PCs to (potentially) meet Sidrah and learn more about the ancient history of the Technic League and Androffa/Divinity's mission.
I like this alot, but her being an actual human could potentially be a mind blowing experience for players, if they don't find out on their own. It may be worth saying she managed to make a copy of her mind similar to the way Casandalee did and introduce her as a separate AI companion.
Could potentially allow for the morally grey choice (my favorite kind of choice) of overwriting an evil NPCs mind to give Sidrah an actual body. Sidrah wants a new body and can tell the PCs what section of the ship had a Psychic Imprinter (in the Artifact section of the Tech Guide). The issue is tracking down that section. I may play around with this, but would probably make it high level post-campaign content.
I love the idea of somehow incorporating Sidrah into Casandalee's backstory, even if it's not as one of her personalities.
The big question that we have to answer when brainstorming here is how to offer PCs a series of options that seem viable. That is, I can come up with lots of crazy personalities that would be funny and entertaining for Casandalee to swap between, but when it comes down to stabilizing Casandalee into one of six possible personalities, that choice is only interesting if the players have to choose between several personalities that they'd want on their side.
So, I could make a crazy murder-fiend who's just out for blood, but if that's one of the six options, my players are unlikely to consider that as one of their viable options (YRMV).
What kinds of personalities/boons/etc. would be distinct, entertaining, and still tempting as permanent choices for Casandalee's personality?
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Well, I'd first say that it would be best customized to a specific group's style. But that's true of everything. :)
That said, here's a few potential ideas (off the top of my head):
Casandalee, N oracle; speaker for the many past lives; does whatever she does
Arrakhal, CN bloodrager; crazed by "imprisonment in data form"; can generate pulses of liberating emotion
Irah, LG rogue; fascinated by concepts of law and justice as compared to AI programming; aids party teamwork Tactician-style
Eleth, LE monk; believes in her own superiority over biological beings (scares the other personalities with its resemblance to Unity); gains bonuses when taking over robots
Karah, NG druid; intrigued by living things, growth, and rebirth; can influence growing things or cast druid spells
Ulumee, CG ranger; hunted dangerous invasive species, especially aliens (such as Dominion invaders); grants favored enemy bonus against aberrations (via Hunter's Bond: Companions, so half bonus)
These are just a few ideas. Hopefully this offers some inspiration. :)
I bought both products - the Ultimate relationships product is the 'system' to build a relationship tree for an NPC and how to build milestones and such to make a progression - the 'far east' product is essentially the framework used and built for the entire 'far east' AP - even if you don't use that AP for the cost it's a nice add on as it shows in detail how to use the system to build a relationship arc for NPC's that will be with the party for a great deal of time.
I grabbed UR and just read it, kind of convoluted without examples. Wouldn't mind using the idea for Casandalee and potentially Isumi. If I grab the far east AP (I guess its the Jade Regent one?) that combined with UR should give me enough info to build my own tree?
Sounds like thats what you are recommending.