Just pondering this. First, the crazy level 20 blacksmith (or any other craft) build. (Mwk = masterwork.)
Race: Human (note that a gnome gets a +2 racial, BUT...)
-Heart of the Fields racial swap / +10
-Artisan social trait / +2
-Patient Calm faith trait (get 12 on take 10)
-Skill Focus: Craft / +6
-Prodigy / +4
-Master Craftsman / +2
-Mwk tools / +2
-Skill ranks / +23
-34 Int / +12 (17 base, 5 level up, 6 enhancement, 6 inherent)
=+61. I'm sure there are other things we can do with this.
Mundane crafting is a function of the item's DC. While there are some extremes (traps can get as high as DC 45 for example, as can composite bows rated for +15,) most difficult tasks fall into the 20-25 range. A 25 task accelerated to 35 = 2555 (73 x 35) sp worth of work per week.
For armour, it's 10+AC, so it won't even reach 20. Full plate is 2117 sp / wk, requiring the better part of six weeks to craft. The cute irony is that the mwk is easier at 2190, and can be done in a single week since mwk armour is only +150 gold.
While ordinary weapons can practically be mass-produced (1825 sp / wk for martial weapons and crossbows / bolts,) a mwk weapon takes about a week and a half - and basically three weeks for a double weapon.
So the best we can do under ordinary circumstances is 255 gold / wk.
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Magical crafting, at this level... 73 means that we can take an item of CL 18, miss TEN requisites (for +50,) accelerate, and still be assured of success; and our crafting rate is 2000 gold / DAY.
The number of days in a week is defined as seven (cf: downtime rules in UC,) though two of those are defined as "weekend" days and assumed to not be worked.
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Conclusion:
Common "hard" crafting: 255 gold per week, at a rather high plateau of skill and not reaching for crazy-hard tasks.
Magical crafting: 10k (or perhaps 14k if you push it) gold per week, even for neophyte crafters.
Why is this discrepancy even a thing; and why is it so ridiculously large?
The preservation of sacred cows
Because Magic.
From a game balance perspective, mundane crafting only requires skills, not feats. Magical Crafting can save you money, but not generate income while mundane crafting actually produces a profit.
Lastly, the game is designed to simulate heroic adventuring, not economic systems so one would expect it to be fairly weak in its economic simulations.
3 reasons. Accept any that work for you, or don't.
Because martials can't have nice things.
In all seriousness, it is a holdover from 3.x crafting. Backwards compatibility and all that.
It would probably (hopefully) work differently if pathfinder wasn't shackled to the 3.5 ruleset (yes, Pathfinder is it's own game now, but the pathfinder CRB and the 3.5 equivalent have very similar rules).
Because martials can't have nice things.
In all seriousness, it is a holdover from 3.x crafting. Backwards compatibility and all that.
It would probably (hopefully) work differently if pathfinder wasn't shackled to the 3.5 ruleset (yes, Pathfinder is it's own game now, but the pathfinder CRB and the 3.5 equivalent have very similar rules).
At least martials can take Master Craftsman and get in on some of the magical fun? :P But yeah, I'm aware that Pathfinder remains deeply integrated with d20 (and, thus, with D&D 3.5.) It was more a curiosity for why the mundane-crafting ceiling is as low as it is.
Though... looking at 3.5, it seems that in 3.5, you were allowed to accelerate multiple times, taking a +10 DC for each. Thus our DC 25 task could be accelerated four times for DC 65 (4745 sp with the OP build,) and a mwk component could be accelerated five times to DC 70 (5110 sp.)
I wonder why that didn't make it into Pathfinder, while the rest of Craft did?
Because Magic is as good an answer as you'll ever get.
Because martials can't have nice things.
In all seriousness, it is a holdover from 3.x crafting. Backwards compatibility and all that.
It would probably (hopefully) work differently if pathfinder wasn't shackled to the 3.5 ruleset (yes, Pathfinder is it's own game now, but the pathfinder CRB and the 3.5 equivalent have very similar rules).
At least martials can take Master Craftsman and get in on some of the magical fun? :P But yeah, I'm aware that Pathfinder remains deeply integrated with d20 (and, thus, with D&D 3.5.) It was more a curiosity for why the mundane-crafting ceiling is as low as it is.
Though... looking at 3.5, it seems that in 3.5, you were allowed to accelerate multiple times, taking a +10 DC for each. Thus our DC 25 task could be accelerated four times for DC 65 (4745 sp with the OP build,) and a mwk component could be accelerated five times to DC 70 (5110 sp.)
I wonder why that didn't make it into Pathfinder, while the rest of Craft did?
The section on accelerated crafting is identical between my copy of the 3.5 PHB and the PRD. Nothing changed in the crossover in this case.Neither say anything about increasing the DC by10 multiple times for accelerated crafting, just the one time increase.
Magical methods of crafting are designed to enable a party to do quick construction while on an adventure. Mundane crafting is downtime activity. One enables stuff to be kitted up on the fly, the other enables a master craftsman to make his own gear in a montage scene.
The discrepancy? All about the style of play and expected purpose of the two methods. It's not about imbalance of classes or martial not having nice things.
Because Magic is as good an answer as you'll ever get.
Actually, this came up while looking at a sorcerer concept, so no martial co-option of casters is actually involved here. And yes, I know that casters steal blacksmiths' thunder too. :)
Master Craftsman itself is another question, one I'm looking through forum history to see if it was ever answered; but at the very least, knowing what mundane Craft can do and how fast is useful.
Magical methods of crafting are designed to enable a party to do quick construction while on an adventure. Mundane crafting is downtime activity. One enables stuff to be kitted up on the fly, the other enables a master craftsman to make his own gear in a montage scene.
The discrepancy? All about the style of play and expected purpose of the two methods. It's not about imbalance of classes or martial not having nice things.
But the magical way can be done in downtime too. Wizards aren't restricted from crafting when they have a month off. In fact, they're somewhat known for it.
The section on accelerated crafting is identical between my copy of the 3.5 PHB and the PRD. Nothing changed in the crossover in this case.Neither say anything about increasing the DC by10 multiple times for accelerated crafting, just the one time increase.
Admittedly, it wasn't in the 3.5 PHB; it's an older option yet, from the 3.0 epic rules. So that could just end up being table variance.
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Magical crafting with regard to weapons and armor is really just giving existing weapons and armor magical properties. With the craft skill you are actually making the item which actually takes a long time.
Magical crafting with regard to weapons and armor is really just giving existing weapons and armor magical properties. With the craft skill you are actually making the item which actually takes a long time.
If I'm reading u right, the magical crafting is only for the enchanting and giving magical properties. If ur crafting from the ground up as in making a +1 long sword without owning a masterwork long word, then u go by regular crafting rules to get the long word and then u go by magical crafting rules to add the magical +1 to it? And not just a single day of making a +1 long sword appear outta nowhere.
Because that's how I've been doing with the crafting rules if so. Didn't know if I was doing anything wrong but seemed right.
Magical crafting with regard to weapons and armor is really just giving existing weapons and armor magical properties. With the craft skill you are actually making the item which actually takes a long time.If I'm reading u right, the magical crafting is only for the enchanting and giving magical properties. If ur crafting from the ground up as in making a +1 long sword without owning a masterwork long word, then u go by regular crafting rules to get the long word and then u go by magical crafting rules to add the magical +1 to it? And not just a single day of making a +1 long sword appear outta nowhere.
Because that's how I've been doing with the crafting rules if so. Didn't know if I was doing anything wrong but seemed right.
It depends on whether the mundane item factors into the price:
Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price.
"Items with value" is a bit deceptive; it rarely happens, even for items where you'd expect it to happen. Rods are essentially light maces, for example, but never factor in. No, not even the Rod of Lordly Might which is (among other things) an actual light mace +2.
You know it's happened if the item's Price is more than twice its Cost.
If it didn't happen, you don't technically need the mwk / high quality mundane thing; it comes into being as part of the abstract cost of making the item. But if it did happen (as with most weapons and armour,) you need the item.
But the magical way can be done in downtime too. Wizards aren't restricted from crafting when they have a month off. In fact, they're somewhat known for it.Magical methods of crafting are designed to enable a party to do quick construction while on an adventure. Mundane crafting is downtime activity. One enables stuff to be kitted up on the fly, the other enables a master craftsman to make his own gear in a montage scene.
The discrepancy? All about the style of play and expected purpose of the two methods. It's not about imbalance of classes or martial not having nice things.
At which point we're back to the fact this isn't an economic sim game, it's an adventure game and the difference in construction time doesn't really matter.
Magical crafting with regard to weapons and armor is really just giving existing weapons and armor magical properties. With the craft skill you are actually making the item which actually takes a long time.If I'm reading u right, the magical crafting is only for the enchanting and giving magical properties. If ur crafting from the ground up as in making a +1 long sword without owning a masterwork long word, then u go by regular crafting rules to get the long word and then u go by magical crafting rules to add the magical +1 to it? And not just a single day of making a +1 long sword appear outta nowhere.
Because that's how I've been doing with the crafting rules if so. Didn't know if I was doing anything wrong but seemed right.
That's correct.
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At which point we're back to the fact this isn't an economic sim game, it's an adventure game and the difference in construction time doesn't really matter.But the magical way can be done in downtime too. Wizards aren't restricted from crafting when they have a month off. In fact, they're somewhat known for it.Magical methods of crafting are designed to enable a party to do quick construction while on an adventure. Mundane crafting is downtime activity. One enables stuff to be kitted up on the fly, the other enables a master craftsman to make his own gear in a montage scene.
The discrepancy? All about the style of play and expected purpose of the two methods. It's not about imbalance of classes or martial not having nice things.
It kind of does.
A magic crafter can stick a +4 enchantment on a new mithril breastplate in 2 weeks or so. This costs half of 16 thousand gp. A level 6 wizard can make this check (3 (class skill)+5(int)+2(valet familiar)+6(ranks)+1(ioun stone)+ take 10=27 on the check, which is enough).
A typical level 6 PC martial crafter (craft check of 3 (class skill)+6 (ranks)+2(int)+take 10=21) can make an new mithril breastplate in a time period of about 2 and a half years.
2 weeks of downtime happens sometimes (and the crafting can be broken up into multiple periods - the wizard can do parts of the upgrade in 1 to 5 days each). Most PCs do not have 3 years of continuous downtime to make a breastplate.
The crafting(mundane) rules do not really work well in most games because it takes forever to make things. Even though it is not realistic I dont think most groups would mind crafting to advance by gold pieces instead of silver pieces.
Or to commission one from a high-level dwarven expert. :P
And even an extreme blacksmith (the 73 from OP) would need just over 22 weeks (42k / (73 x 26)) ~ 22.13 to make a mithral breastplate.
And yeah, 2.4 years: 42k / (21 x 16) is, of course, 1k/16 = 125.
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As for making the breastplate +4: I'm getting DC 22 without acceleration, 27 with: your build is indeed just enough to succeed! :)
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Magical crafting with regard to weapons and armor is really just giving existing weapons and armor magical properties. With the craft skill you are actually making the item which actually takes a long time.If I'm reading u right, the magical crafting is only for the enchanting and giving magical properties. If ur crafting from the ground up as in making a +1 long sword without owning a masterwork long word, then u go by regular crafting rules to get the long word and then u go by magical crafting rules to add the magical +1 to it? And not just a single day of making a +1 long sword appear outta nowhere.
Because that's how I've been doing with the crafting rules if so. Didn't know if I was doing anything wrong but seemed right.
Or, you use Fabricate to make a Long Sword, then Masterwork Transformation to make it masterwork. Technically, you can skip right to Masterwork Transformation if you pick up any old long sword from a blacksmith, bandit corpse, or monster refuse pile.
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Or, you use Fabricate to make a Long Sword, then Masterwork Transformation to make it masterwork. Technically, you can skip right to Masterwork Transformation if you pick up any old long sword from a blacksmith, bandit corpse, or monster refuse pile.
With Masterwork Transformation alone, you are usually cutting out between 85% and 100% of the crafting involved.
A 315gp MW longsword takes about 20 times longer to make than a 15gp longsword and a single MW transformation. If the craftsman is hitting DC20, it takes roughly half a week for a longsword, vs 2 months for a masterwork sword.
Yay magic?
Sure, having it crafted masterwork is cheaper, but adventurers are busy people. Places to go, people to see and murder for their pocket change etc. Ain't got time for no 2 month crafting times.
Day Job = 1/2 check in gp/week.
Make it = check * DC is sp/week.
I did a calc on this.
If the DC is 5 or higher, and you always make it, this is the better way to make money.
However, there is another wrinkle: Alchemical items. These can be made faster with Master Alchemist. Int Mod doses of poison at the same time, and 10* as fast for alchemical items.
/cevah