It sais, that "armor spikes deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack"...
What about STR mod? Is there some extra damage for positive STR modifier?
And what about when enemy grapples you?
Thanks!
By the book you need to be the one making the successful grapple check to deal the extra damage. As it is stated that this is extra damage, I would argue that it is done on top of the regular damage you do when you use a grapple attack to do damage, which already includes the strength bonus.
Since it does not explicitly say that you do damage to an enemy when they grapple you - which for example some spells, abilties etc do - I think that by RaW it does not. It would not be a bad houserule, but be prepared for anyone to start putting spikes on their armors :).
Wouldn't a grapple attack, rather than a grapple attempt or check, only apply to the cases where you are using the grapple in order to do damage, however?
Look up the Armor Enchantment - Grinding. If you have ever read the Drizz't series, and know who Pwent is, this is basically what he has, and what you want. It also counts as armor spikes when attacking, as it says, so I can only assume if you have armor spikes only, defending does not work with them. They require you to aim your body, not just react when grappled.
Also, if you are confused when you do damage with armor spikes, try looking them up as a light martial weapon, which they are listed as. They can be used as a separate attack or do damage when you grapple, and they are just like any other weapon for calculating damage.
It is not unclear at all actually...
You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack (see "spiked armor" in the Martial Weapons Table). The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
At no point does it say anything about you being grappled, however, there is a way to circumvent this. At the cost of a +1 modifier, you can add this to your armor.
A shield or suit of armor with this special ability is covered with jagged burrs and razor-sharp serrations that saw and grind whenever the wearer is grappled or entangled. Any creature succeeding at a grapple combat maneuver check against the wearer takes damage equal to the armor or shield's enhancement bonus (with each successful check) as the barbs and blades bite into it. This special ability counts as armor spikes for the purpose of making attacks on the wearer's turn.
You can get the Armor Spikes, eventually get Grinding for the defensive, and enchant your Armor Spikes all the way up to a +10 weapon on an armor set that is +10. Of course, that is if you had the money to sink in to something like this, which would seem kind of useless to do...
which allow you to deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attackSo, the argument is that you do extra damage on a successful grapple check. If someone makes a successful grapple check against you, then that's a successful grapple check, and you inflict the damage.
It is not a grapple check, it is a grapple attack. -YOU- deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple -ATTACK-. It is an attack action to grapple someone and get this damage, and not a reaction to someone else grappling you. It is not a defensive action, it is an attack. On your turn you attack. How can that be interpreted any other way besides the way it is written? To top it off, Grinding even furthers the RAW by saying "This special ability counts as armor spikes for the purpose of making attacks on the wearer's turn." Why would it not say it counts as armor spikes in general? Making armor spikes in to a defensive thing instead of a -WEAPON-(which it is a Light Martial Weapon and that is all that it is but in the form of an armor attachment) makes an Enchantment completely useless, so if you use RAI to make it so you can use them for defenses, you are breaking the rules to make your own shortcut.
So... Can I add my STR bonus?
And what about GRAPPLE ATTACK - what is it? When aintaining grapple as a free action - is it a grapple attack? And will I deal extra damage?
And what about wild armor in wild shape? Can I use armor spikes on my armor when in the bear form, for example?
It would help if armour spikes weren't just a Fantasy trope. If you could see real examples you would have an idea of how they could work.
It would help if armour spikes weren't just a Fantasy trope. If you could see real examples you would have an idea of how they could work.
Em... I just want to grab a foe and thurst spikes into his body. So, if my STR is good enough, he will tke more damage. And if I'll maintain the grapple - I'll do more damage.
There are some examples of using armor spikes in real life - some armor with spikes on chest.
I would say yes you get the Armour Spike damage when maintaining a Grapple - you get the damage for each successful Grapple Attack Check you make.
As for Wild Armour - no I'm afraid not as the spikes are a weapon and cannot be enchanted as armour.
No mate there really aren't any examples of armour spikes in RL.
Armour is designed to deflect and/or absorb force, put spikes on it and you interfere with deflection and you turn every weapon that hits you into a spiked version of itself. No Studded Leather or Boob Cups for the same reasons - rings, scales, plates, flat rivets all good; spikey bits saying hit me here - bad!
It would help if armour spikes weren't just a Fantasy trope. If you could see real examples you would have an idea of how they could work.
http://www.geeknative.com/33171/siberian-spiked-armour/
A bear protection suit is more akin to a barbed vest rather than actual armour but I appreciate the Google Fu alexd1976. Can you imagine if you fell over in that thing?
Sucj thing for example: http://admem.ru/content/images/1391026726.jpg
So... Can I add my STR bonus?
And what about GRAPPLE ATTACK - what is it? When aintaining grapple as a free action - is it a grapple attack? And will I deal extra damage?
And what about wild armor in wild shape? Can I use armor spikes on my armor when in the bear form, for example?
I suppose I need to just tell you what is in the PRD instead of saying what to look up...
Armor Spikes are not armor itself. They are a Martial Light Weapon. Like any light weapon, you can use it as an off handed attack for the purpose of two or multiweapon fighting. Any time you make a successful grapple check, there are a few options available to you as to what you do next, to include doing damage if you have a damage source. This all depends on the feats you have taken, of course. There are some fighting styles that give you special actions to take on a confirmed grapple check. However, if you have Armor Spikes, a weapon used for grappling, then you get to do 1d6+ your modifier for any weapon of the martial light weapons category + any enhancements to the Armor Spikes themselves, not the armor. Anything else you would like to know?
Those are Besagues for protecting the armpits on Plate Armour and yes you are right they have spikes on them. Usually attached at a single point and not too rigidly.
Thanks!
A bear protection suit is more akin to a barbed vest rather than actual armour but I appreciate the Google Fu alexd1976. Can you imagine if you fell over in that thing?
It looks wildly impractical, I can't imagine any sane person putting that thing on.
I also never use armor spikes ingame, same reason. :)
I think there was a suit of Maximillian plate that had spikes also, there really is a real-world precedent for it.
We have always had spiked armor inflict the base (non-STR enhanced) damage if the target/wearer has been grappled. If used actively to attack, STR bonus is added.
I think there was a suit of Maximillian plate that had spikes also, there really is a real-world precedent for it.
If you could find an image of that I'd love to see it.
I'm not convinced of a RL precedent though for the reasons I stated above. Though I am open to being convinced if anyone can find examples of Armour Spikes that look even vaguely usable for doing damage. Though none of the Medieval Archaeologists at UCL I asked ever could.
This is driving me bananas now, I KNOW I have seen an image of real full plate with hundreds of spikes, somewhere...
Regardless, the bear hunting armor IS armor, it's two layers of leather with an iron helmet, don't just dismiss it...
Granted, it wouldn't WORK against a bear, but that doesn't change the fact that some wackadoo, somewhere, made this stuff...
I will post a link when/if I find more info on the plate armor I'm sure existed at some point...
It only makes sense against a bear or similar, if it tries to bite you? face full of spikes. If it swipes at you? paw full of spikes.
Hit that suit with a hard club though and half a dozen nails would be punching through that backing layer of leather.
PM me if you find that pic Alex1976 and I'll happily admit I'm wrong.
No luck, the Indians had ceremonial armor with spikes for executioners, but nothing practical/for everyday use. Apparently there were Roman troops with spikes for fighting elephants(?) Can't find reliable sources for either though.
There are plenty of helmets with spikes on them, and gauntlets (cestus?) I can't imagine it would be that hard to extrapolate that to include spikes on the back of a solid chest piece, on bracers (a la batman), on the shins/boots perhaps?
Whether or not it existed in real life... it's a part of the game :D
I never imagined armor spikes as having the coverage of that silly bear suit I posted a link to, just several spikes in strategic locations.
It is a fantasy game after all, if people can hurl fireballs, let the fighters have their pointy things.
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Many weapons in Pathfinder, just don't exist IRL, and some wouldn't even function at all.
The Dire Flail, is one such example.
You could always see Armor Spikes, creating an effect similar to Siberian Bear Hunting Armor.
You would be surprised what crazy real life weapons and armor don't exist in Pathfinder.
I wasn't saying they shouldn't be in Pathfinder, just it's hard to envision how they work without evidence.
Studded Leather is another one, I've used it since 1st ed whilst knowing it was really a misunderstanding of what a Brigandine was. It's now just part of RPGs to wear "studded" leather - it wouldn't be the same without it.
Wait, we are questioning how well something like spikes would work without evidence, but we are all okay with Magic Missile and Fireball?
My brain is leaking out of my ears...
Magic missile is a force effect that automatically hits there is little about it to be unsure of and little argument about how it works.
The same with fireball; it causes a ball of fire of a certain size at a point you designate. We all see it in our minds eye in pretty much the same way.
The fact that a Dire-flail is obviously not Real World doesn't cause a problem because it's just a weapon with some stated qualities. There's a drawing of it and everyone imagines it in much the same way.
Armour Spikes on the other hand are not precisely defined and therefore need some common sense and extrapolation of rules. This is complicated by the fact they are not based on any RW item so everyone imagines them differently (depending on which Fantasy artist or film they associate them with*) and thus think they should have different qualities.
Even though it's a Fantasy World it still needs to be believable within it's own context.
* And/or what they want to do with them c.f. TWF armour spikes and 2HW
Anyway, getting back on track to the original question...
When you attack, apply your STR mod as appropriate.
If someone grappling you takes damage from the spikes, I would say no STR mod, or if anything, THEIR STR mod (they use their full strength to get a bonus to hit, so it makes sense that the bonus to damage should apply equally).
My two cents.