PTBC - Nightglass


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Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

Before we begin discussion of Nightglass, Book One, I should point out a few comments people (including the author) have made regarding the following question: Who are the people of Nidal?

I somewhat agree with a few of the viewpoints in the thread about how the Nidalese may have deserved their own human ethnicity, but from their descriptions, they also resemble half-elves; well, at least the albino Nidalese with their white hair and pale skin. (This brings the iconic Seltyiel to mind, especially with his background from the Whisperwood in Cheliax that also has Varisian affiliations.) I wonder if this has anything to do with their patron deity Zon-Kuthon, formerly known as Dou-Bral, being the half-brother to Shelyn, who is commonly venerated by half-elves.

As for the fetchlings, the Shadowcallers in Book One are never referred to as such, although they could easily be interpreted as said outsiders. Looking back to the first printing date for both Nightglass and the Advanced Race Guide, they both actually share the same date: June 2012, which makes it difficult to know which version of the Shadowcallers came first - the association in this novel or the exclusive summoner archeype for fetchlings. This makes little difference int he story for me, I was just curious, as both depictions are exactly what I had envisioned them to be when I first built one shortly after the ARG was published. (Fetchling Shadowcallers are SOOO nasty...)


Yes...finally a book I have read. Though my copy is currently on loan to a friend so I'll have work of memory.

As for the people of Nidal question...I figure that they should have their own ethinic group. I also think things like the albinism is mostly due to their isolationism and interbreeding. I seem to recall other Nidal character having other defects...but I maybe wrong here.

Scarab Sages

From the context of Nightglass and Nightblade, the pale hair and skin is presented as not so much a trait of birth as the inevitable effect of Nidal's continued association with Shadows and the Plane of Shadow. Both Isiem and his fellow students start off perhaps pale but otherwise with normal coloration, but as they proceed in their studies as budding shadowcallers they slowly but surely take on the coloration of the adults.

One thing I wanted to ask about: The first chapter of Nightglass tells the tale of a Pathfinder that finds refuge with Isiem's mother. This is never touched on later (and it appears Isiem has no idea it even happened). Was this just Liane's way of writing into the story? A way to establish how terrifying Nidal is to outsiders? I've never been sure.

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber

My understanding is that the Taldan and Chelaxian ethnicities are really almost the same. I suspect that the Nidalese are as different from each of those as they are from each other. So, by that argument, they should probably have their own ethnicity.

On the other hand, Nidal isn't as "major" a country in the Inner Sea as Taldor and Cheliax, so they're less likely to be listed. As with everything, the categories are going to be a little bit artificial and arbitrary, as people will in reality (well, "reality", since we are talking about a fictional world) probably fall somewhere more along a continuum.

(The Tien-Xia entry in the ISWG, if memory serves, mentions that they really are more than one ethnicity, but the Inner Sea folks are generally not aware of that and tend to lump them together. It also mentions that folks from the Tien side of the world return the favor, and think of Inner Sea folks as all being of one big ethnicity.)

Contributor

Belabras wrote:
One thing I wanted to ask about: The first chapter of Nightglass tells the tale of a Pathfinder that finds refuge with Isiem's mother. This is never touched on later (and it appears Isiem has no idea it even happened). Was this just Liane's way of writing into the story? A way to establish how terrifying Nidal is to outsiders? I've never been sure.

What I was trying to do with that prologue was to establish that Nidal is its own profoundly weird little corner of the world, that it's deeply insular and viewed with fear by outsiders, and that its own people don't necessarily have much love for their overlords but they're too scared to leave (if not always too scared to help other people escape). So pretty much the second option, yeah.

Basically I wanted to signal to readers who might not already be familiar with Nidal that "today we're going to look at creepy cultures that are not representative of Golarion as a whole, and btw not everybody who lives here is a totally soulless monster, just... you know... most of the people we're going to spend the rest of the book with. p.s. they have creepy monsters. also magic. you cool with that? cool! let's go!"

It actually never occurred to me until after Nightglass came out that people would expect the prologue POV to show up again, because I'd been reading a bunch of stuff where the prologues were only obliquely connected to the main narrative (GRRM being one obvious example, but it's pretty common in historical fiction too), and so that had dropped out of my head as an expectation readers might have. WHOOPS.

also, hi guys!! I'll try to mostly butt out of the discussion unless anybody specifically wants to ask me anything or there's something I just cannot make myself shut up about. But I'm more than happy to blabber about stuff if you do. ;)

Scarab Sages

Thanks Liane!

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

Dusk Hall…an academy, yes, and a prestigious one in its own right, but surely not one in which ordinary students seek enrollment, especially since it seems the only way in is to be chosen. The amount of detail within was staggering, and the Joyful Ones were nothing short of horrifying. (I searched the Bestiary books and couldn’t find them – if anyone could tell me where I can find a stat block for them I would greatly appreciate it for when I get ready to GM the Midnight Mirror module in the fall.)

What were just as sick and twisted as the Joyful Things were the elaborate torture rituals performed by the shadowcallers. The Needled Choir was exceptionally nasty, and the silent image Helis used to make Serevil kill Dirakah was equally as sinister. That scene was only topped when Helis herself was betrayed when Isiem tricked Iskarioth by using delay poison to conceal Bedic as a living death trap. I love the line where Isiem says, “I offer you a good man. Young. Strong. Pure of heart. I have done nothing to damage his body.” That was perfectly played, as it was all true! (No Bluff or Sense Motive checks even had to be rolled if that was in-game.) Both of those scenes were remarkable. It never crossed my mind that either of those spells could be used to kill in either fashion and against two significant antagonists no less. So devious. Liane – I pity anyone who gets on your bad side.

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

A lot of people don't like having music on while reading, I guess because they find it distracting, but that definitely isn’t the case with me. If I may suggest a few artists, here’s some of what I’ve been listening to while reading Nightglass: Aesthetic Perfection, Celldweller, Imperative Reaction, Leather Strip, Razed in Black, Suicide Commando, Tactical Sekt

Scarab Sages

I'm not familiar with most of those, but from what I've heard of Celldweller I can see how that might fit.

Contributor

Darkborn wrote:
the Joyful Ones were nothing short of horrifying. (I searched the Bestiary books and couldn’t find them – if anyone could tell me where I can find a stat block for them I would greatly appreciate it for when I get ready to GM the Midnight Mirror module in the fall.)

They are fun little dudes. :)

No Bestiary entry exists for them, as far as I'm aware. The Joyful Things originate on p. 68 of Skeletons of Scarwall (Book 5 of Curse of the Crimson Throne), in the write-up on Zon-Kuthon.

I don't know if they were originally supposed to be/do what I made of them, but it seems like if you've been reduced to a limbless torso, you've got to get your jollies somehow.


Liane Merciel wrote:
Darkborn wrote:
the Joyful Ones were nothing short of horrifying. (I searched the Bestiary books and couldn’t find them – if anyone could tell me where I can find a stat block for them I would greatly appreciate it for when I get ready to GM the Midnight Mirror module in the fall.)

They are fun little dudes. :)

No Bestiary entry exists for them, as far as I'm aware. The Joyful Things originate on p. 68 of Skeletons of Scarwall (Book 5 of Curse of the Crimson Throne), in the write-up on Zon-Kuthon.

I don't know if they were originally supposed to be/do what I made of them, but it seems like if you've been reduced to a limbless torso, you've got to get your jollies somehow.

It looks like the Joyful Ones may be making an appearance in Pathfinder Origins #4: Merisiel. That story takes place in Nidal.

Executive Editor

Itchy wrote:
Liane Merciel wrote:
Darkborn wrote:
the Joyful Ones were nothing short of horrifying. (I searched the Bestiary books and couldn’t find them – if anyone could tell me where I can find a stat block for them I would greatly appreciate it for when I get ready to GM the Midnight Mirror module in the fall.)

They are fun little dudes. :)

No Bestiary entry exists for them, as far as I'm aware. The Joyful Things originate on p. 68 of Skeletons of Scarwall (Book 5 of Curse of the Crimson Throne), in the write-up on Zon-Kuthon.

I don't know if they were originally supposed to be/do what I made of them, but it seems like if you've been reduced to a limbless torso, you've got to get your jollies somehow.

It looks like the Joyful Ones may be making an appearance in Pathfinder Origins #4: Merisiel. That story takes place in Nidal.

It's true! I talk about them a bit in the backmatter as well. :)

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

So there's a centuries old shae imprisoned in a Midnight Mirror...very, very interesting.
Isiem made a great point - which I believe to be the case - when he said "Silence is a trap." But I also think that the prospect of what Silence has to offer will be too much for Ascaros to resist. I'm curious to see how that's going to play out in Part Two, if Isiem even gets back to Pangolais, as he seems quite entrenched in Cheliax right now...


I really liked the way this book gave us a inside look into Nidal and the Strix. Both before hand were mostly not touched upon much. Liane really did a great job of exploring those cultures.

I love the character of Velenne and hope to see more of her in the future.

Though I admitt...I did not like the main character that much. Isiem for some reason never clicked with me as a reader. I don't think it has anything to do with Liane's writing either as I really enjoyed the other characters in the novel...and her writing in general. Maybe he is just too much angst.

Contributor

John Kretzer wrote:


I love the character of Velenne and hope to see more of her in the future.

Though I admitt...I did not like the main character that much. Isiem for some reason never clicked with me as a reader. I don't think it has anything to do with Liane's writing either as I really enjoyed the other characters in the novel...and her writing in general. Maybe he is just too much angst.

I have plans for Velenne to reappear in the future. :)

re: Isiem -- yeah, that's kind of my feeling too.

In retrospect, I feel like he's not the most compelling heroic protagonist for most of those books. He's a cerebral, introspective, mopey wizard. Which was fine for Nightglass, because that made him cagey enough to sneak his way out of Nidal (whereas a charge first/think later character probably wouldn't have survived long enough to get anywhere, at least not in the Pangolais of my writing) and empathetic enough to want out, but I feel like I started to run up against the limitations of Isiem-as-protagonist in Nightblade. A guy who's still figuring out his place in the world doesn't always have the fire needed to burn a bright path as he takes it.

Of course part of that story was always meant to show his change into someone who might become a heroic figure (what I was hoping to do with that book, in part, was to show the rest of his transition from Point B to Point C), but for most of Nightblade he's not really there yet, and I don't think that's the greatest storytelling choice I ever made in my life.

But, you know, we learn by doing. And one of the things I learned from that duology is that the next time I wanted to put someone else in the starring role. ;)


Yeah he did work better for Nightglass...though I still did not like him. But in Nightblade I kind of just wanted to grab him and yell at him.

Contributor

Well, the good news is that he's sitting out the next round. ;)

At some point I might revisit his story (at which time he'll probably be a little different from the character we see in those two books, having had a few years to grow and develop in the meantime), but I don't have plans in that direction right now. There are other characters I'm more interested in following for the next little bit.

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

John Kretzer wrote:

Though I admitt...I did not like the main character that much. Isiem for some reason never clicked with me as a reader. I don't think it has anything to do with Liane's writing either as I really enjoyed the other characters in the novel...and her writing in general. Maybe he is just too much angst.

I see where you're coming from, but I actually like Isiem because of his angst, and for the many other ways he differs from most of the lead roles in fantasy novels. In my experience, most of them feature "good" characters and for me, that gets really old really fast. It pleases me to find another author willing to change it up, much like James Sutter had sone with Salim in Death's Heretic/The Redemption Engine.

As far as alignment goes, I would put Isiem at Chaotic Neutral so that he leans across the line into the anti-hero category. He’s had little to no choice in having to perform evil acts in Dusk Hall, some that have resulted in the death of innocents. (The two scenes I referred to earlier come to mind, by not stopping Helis to save Serevil and Dirakah as well as essentially sacrificing Bedic to make up for it.)

Who knows, one day Isiem may have to answer for the morally questionable decisions he has made. Alternatively, atonement may not off the table since he’s had quite a few redeemable actions, going against both Nidal and Cheliax. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

As we finish reading the rest of the week, we should vote on the next novel. (I guess this should have gone out last week, sorry for the delay everyone.) Anyway, I have two suggestions:

#1 - We continue with Isiem through Nightglass.
#2 - We switch it up and go to another Pathfinder Tales series.

I really like the suggestion for Pirate's Honor, having GMed the Skull & Shackles AP last year, and because I'm currently going through withdrawal symptoms from Black Sails being over until next season. However, I would like to still move on to Nightglass before too much time off, so perhaps we could do that after Pirate's Honor, then after our adventures with Isiem we can follow suit with Pirate's Promise.


Oh, neat. Is this a private conversation/group, or is everyone invited?


bugleyman wrote:
Oh, neat. Is this a private conversation/group, or is everyone invited?

Everyone is invited...:)


Darkborn wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:

Though I admitt...I did not like the main character that much. Isiem for some reason never clicked with me as a reader. I don't think it has anything to do with Liane's writing either as I really enjoyed the other characters in the novel...and her writing in general. Maybe he is just too much angst.

I see where you're coming from, but I actually like Isiem because of his angst, and for the many other ways he differs from most of the lead roles in fantasy novels. In my experience, most of them feature "good" characters and for me, that gets really old really fast. It pleases me to find another author willing to change it up, much like James Sutter had sone with Salim in Death's Heretic/The Redemption Engine.

As far as alignment goes, I would put Isiem at Chaotic Neutral so that he leans across the line into the anti-hero category. He’s had little to no choice in having to perform evil acts in Dusk Hall, some that have resulted in the death of innocents. (The two scenes I referred to earlier come to mind, by not stopping Helis to save Serevil and Dirakah as well as essentially sacrificing Bedic to make up for it.)

Who knows, one day Isiem may have to answer for the morally questionable decisions he has made. Alternatively, atonement may not off the table since he’s had quite a few redeemable actions, going against both Nidal and Cheliax. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

That is the thing though I did not find him as a anti-hero either...he was just kind of meh. Also it was not just the angst...I just did not like him. I don't know why really...he just seemed not that interesting to me. Though admittedly it really did not stand out to me till Nightsword.

Of course it is just my opinion and I did enjoy the novel despite my dislike for the main character.


Darkborn wrote:

As we finish reading the rest of the week, we should vote on the next novel. (I guess this should have gone out last week, sorry for the delay everyone.) Anyway, I have two suggestions:

#1 - We continue with Isiem through Nightglass.
#2 - We switch it up and go to another Pathfinder Tales series.

I really like the suggestion for Pirate's Honor, having GMed the Skull & Shackles AP last year, and because I'm currently going through withdrawal symptoms from Black Sails being over until next season. However, I would like to still move on to Nightglass before too much time off, so perhaps we could do that after Pirate's Honor, then after our adventures with Isiem we can follow suit with Pirate's Promise.

While I have been chomping at the bit to discuss the Pirate's x novels I think we should finish up with Isiem and the Nightsword. But I am good either way.

Scarab Sages

Nightblade, I think you'll find ;)


Belabras wrote:
Nightblade, I think you'll find ;)

You are correct...I don't know what I was thinking.


John Kretzer wrote:
Everyone is invited...:)

In that case, I'll copy my review of Nightglass:

bugleyman wrote:

I picked this up at the FLGS on a whim, based largely on the author. I loved River King's Road, and found Mrs. Merciel to be a very nice lady when I had the chance to meet her at PaizoCon 2011, so I wanted to love this book. Unfortunately, it was just OK.

The Good:
--------------
The book really conveys the feel of living in Nidal -- the horror and desperation of everyday residents, the unconscious self-loathing of the rank-and-file oppressors -- in a very immediate way. The prose is well-constructed, with evocative descriptions and many clever turns of phrase. I commend the author in this respect, and only hope I will someday be capable of this level of craft. Well done!

The Bad:
-----------
The work as a whole felt...rushed. Multiple pages were devoted to scenes of little consequence, but other, more important scenes were given little room to breathe. The plot felt disjointed, almost as if there were two books here struggling to get out, but the author couldn't quite decide where she was going. In the end, things didn't really gel into a cohesive whole, leaving the novel less than the sum of its parts.

(***--)

I don't have much to add, as I haven't re-read the book since wrote the review (I just found this thread). However, I do plan to read Nightblade shortly, so naturally my preference would be that the discussion goes there next. It's all about me, after all. ;)

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

I totally didn't expect this tale to take the turn that it did, it WAS like a different story - different environment, different allies and enemies...and that's not a criticism of the structure, I liked how it all played out in the end. It was attempt at redemption that I hoped from Isiem, battling the infamous Hellknights, as very few who take that fight win it, let alone survive.

But let me put this out there: what does everyone think about the strix?


It could have been two books. But I do think Liane handled the transition very well between the break point. Also I think it was necessary as I don't think Isiem would have been able to escape from Nidal with the way it was painted. If he did it would have cheapen how Nidal was set up in the first half the book.

The Cheliax part was was interesting as it gave a look at the strix's culture...I loaned the book to one of my players because he is playing a strix. I find them interesting. Though I think some tribes (like the one that is absorbing other tribes and making them second class citizens) would side with the Cheliax forces and I would have liked a more in depth look at it.

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

I thought the strix culture and local history resembled that of the Native Americans. Well, at least the more isolated or xenophobic tribes. Humans everywhere, and in every era, have committed atrocities for similar gains, and I think that aspect was captured well in this part. This also served to give Isiem the impetus he needed to emancipate himself from his own shady history, and his growth as a charcater seems to be more prevalent here. I especially liked the connections he made with both of the strix oracles, and I hope we get to see him and Kirii together again in the future.
(The same goes for Velenne...)

Contributor

The second half of Nightglass is pretty close to being a fantasy Western, I suspect. Or at least that's what I was going for. :)

This is only sort of tangentially related, but since it falls under the umbrella of "times when I just can't shut up":

One of my primary goals whenever I do a tie-in book is to try and make the setting as much a part of the story as the characters. There are two reasons for this, mainly: (1) I think that such fiction should help bring the setting alive for players and GMs, and hopefully provide a bunch of useful details about what it would be like to visit that particular corner of the game world (what do people eat? drink? how do they dress? what do they do for fun? what are the social expectations and cultural norms?), so that's always a point I try to emphasize; and (2) a long long time ago I read that a good story should be a story that could not happen anywhere else but in the time and place of its setting, and that idea always stuck with me -- that setting should anchor the characters and shape their responses and therefore, to some extent, drive the plot.

Nightglass, and especially its second half, probably tries to do that more directly than anything else I've written (except maybe for the Dragon Age book, but that was a different thing -- the setting was the story on that one). Whether or not it worked is not for me to decide. But that was the goal.


I think you did number 1 very well. Both Nidal and the strix became much more alive to me a a GM and a player after reading the book. Which is why I usually read RPG campaign tie-in novels to get those details you mentioned.

Number was also handled very well. As the characters made sense for the setting they were in.


Liane Merciel wrote:

The second half of Nightglass is pretty close to being a fantasy Western, I suspect. Or at least that's what I was going for. :)

This is only sort of tangentially related, but since it falls under the umbrella of "times when I just can't shut up":

One of my primary goals whenever I do a tie-in book is to try and make the setting as much a part of the story as the characters. There are two reasons for this, mainly: (1) I think that such fiction should help bring the setting alive for players and GMs, and hopefully provide a bunch of useful details about what it would be like to visit that particular corner of the game world (what do people eat? drink? how do they dress? what do they do for fun? what are the social expectations and cultural norms?), so that's always a point I try to emphasize; and (2) a long long time ago I read that a good story should be a story that could not happen anywhere else but in the time and place of its setting, and that idea always stuck with me -- that setting should anchor the characters and shape their responses and therefore, to some extent, drive the plot.

Nightglass, and especially its second half, probably tries to do that more directly than anything else I've written (except maybe for the Dragon Age book, but that was a different thing -- the setting was the story on that one). Whether or not it worked is not for me to decide. But that was the goal.

Please don't take my criticism of Nightglass personally. You have shown not only the tenacity and talent to get your work published -- something I haven't yet managed -- but also the humility and grace to consider the opinions of strangers. My hat is off to you, ma'am. :)

Silver Crusade

*tentatively steps into thread*

I feel bad about stepping in here and not talking about the rest of the book but one thing that stuck out to me in the second part was when it's casually mentioned Isiem had other lovers after Velenne, which put me completely in a "waiwha?!?!" moment. Isi doesn't seem the type to go around bars and pick up one night stands due to his mindset and upbringing so this passage has me extremely curious about these former lovers... and then there's how he acts in Nightblade...

Contributor

bugleyman wrote:
Please don't take my criticism of Nightglass personally.

Oh no, never! I hope no one ever worries about that. :)

Books can fail in two ways, I think. Either you didn't achieve the effect you intended, and in that case reader criticism is just about the only way to figure out where you went off course and improve the next time around, or it is successful in being XYZ kind of Book, but not everybody's going to like XYZ Books. And there's no sense getting upset that a reader who loves vampire romances didn't go for your experimental coming-of-age-as-Cthulhu litfic, or vice versa.

So I think it never makes sense to shut down reader feedback. Especially if you're going to go around voluntarily opening discussion threads. ;)

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

Liane Merciel wrote:
(1) I think that such fiction should help bring the setting alive for players and GMs, and hopefully provide a bunch of useful details about what it would be like to visit that particular corner of the game world (what do people eat? drink? how do they dress? what do they do for fun? what are the social expectations and cultural norms?), so that's always a point I try to emphasize.

What first got me interested in the PT novels were the stories in the adventure paths that really made the location that much more vibrant for me, which in turn helped me run a more colorful game. I have seen quite a few comments in discussions about how GMs have given these stories to their players to help imbed their characters into the story and I commend each and every one of them for that. It may seem like minutia to most, but I absolutely DO have interest in the culture of any given region. On the other side of that coin, I am sick and tired of running games with “fish out of water” PC played by selfish players who only care about how awesome their characters are regardless of how ridiculously out of place they are in the story. [If I see one more Tiefling paladin of Erastil who hails from the Five Kingdoms, but is wearing eastern Kikko armor and toting a pair of Red Mantis sawtooth sabres I swear I’m going to light the character sheet on fire right there on the spot...]

Liane Merciel wrote:
(2) a long long time ago I read that a good story should be a story that could not happen anywhere else but in the time and place of its setting, and that idea always stuck with me -- that setting should anchor the characters and shape their responses and therefore, to some extent, drive the plot.

A great point, and one that reminds me of a valuable lesson I learned when I studied screenwriting in college – every scene should be in its very own place and time, both of which should as deliberate as it is significant. Liane is spot on with this, and part two could not have existed anywhere else. [For game purposes, this is also good advice for role-playing. In my opinion, role-playing should always be plot-driven, or at least goal-oriented. In other words, when PCs find themselves in a setting with a role-playing opportunity, they should assess the situation to come up with mental bullet points to check off as they progress with the NPCs, then move on to the next scene, or encounter if things don't go as planned. This formula promotes a faster pace of play and more efficient collective storytelling, which I think is important because too many times have I seen role-playing done just for the sake of role-playing, and the story either goes nowhere or, worse, becomes absurd. Surely, we've all been there...]

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

So let’s wait a little longer for votes about what direction people want the book club to go, but it looks like we’re moving forward to Nightglass starting this weekend so go ahead and pick that up if you haven’t already.

We're also slated to start reading Pirate’s Honor and Pirate’s Promise by Chris A. Jackson next, so with those locked in at three weeks per novel that should take us well into the summer so start thinking about what you would like to read afterwards so voting can begin earlier.


Darkborn wrote:

So let’s wait a little longer for votes about what direction people want the book club to go, but it looks like we’re moving forward to Nightglass starting this weekend so go ahead and pick that up if you haven’t already.

We're also slated to start reading Pirate’s Honor and Pirate’s Promise by Chris A. Jackson next, so with those locked in at three weeks per novel that should take us well into the summer so start thinking about what you would like to read afterwards so voting can begin earlier.

You mean Nightblade right?

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

John Kretzer wrote:
You mean Nightblade right?

Yes, Nightblade. Sorry all, long week...

Sczarni Order of the Amber Die

Good evening all, let's get started on Nightblade, if you haven't already. We'll open discussion for Chapters One through Eight next Saturday at 2 pm. If you would like to add anything else about Nightglass before we leave this thread please feel free to do so throughout the week.
Thanks for contrributing everyone!


I just got my copy of Nightglass this week - I had the misfortune of having it held until my next subscription was sent at the end of the month!!

This was an interesting read for me, because I'd read Nightblade about a week prior to stumbling on the first Book Club discussion thread. My reading of the book was a bit spoilered as a result, but also very skewed, because I actually wanted to like Isiem (due to the sequel) than was truly warranted on the page.

It's already been commented on, I know, about the prologue of Isiem's mother and the Pathfinder (and how it doesn't switch back to him); for me, part of the weirdness comes more from it not seeming to have any impact on Isiem's life (and the fact that his mother is an outright devotee of Desna really shocked me, given what I knew of his future). As I went through the story, I kept waiting for some sort reference or allusion back to it. From a reader perspective, it seems to be completely irrelevant to his life - despite him being nearly 12 or so when he was taken away. Taken independently, it seemed as though he was genuinely loved and cared for by a person who would have sparked his desire to leave Nidal without a second thought; or, at least, left burning questions inside him that would have warranted either searching for his mother (and brother), mother's faith, or his father. After reading the prologue, I guess I was... surprised(?) by how "mopey" or lackadaisical Isiem was about his life. If nothing else, it seemed like he would have been cleverly subversive of all Nidal/Chelaxian activities right from the start (just as he saw from his mother). My impression of his life from the second book was that he'd not had any exposure, really at all, to anything of life outside Cheliax up until he met the strix.

I love reading author commentary about their own characters, so I'm sorry if I seem forward, Mrs. Merciel, but your frankness about your own reaction to Isiem is way cool (and interesting!), pretty much precisely because I guess I had a similar reaction to pretty much all his actions, the entire book? Like, above it's mentioned that it's surprising to hear that he'd had other lovers; I was actually shocked that he'd ever even had one, much less one like Velenne. Isiem is so distant and disconnected from everything that I was surprised someone would even find him sexually attractive (much less that he could even engage in intercourse himself). Even towards the end I kept expecting him to make some sort of long-lasting friendship or understanding of the strix, but that didn't come either. He felt lost and adrift the entire time, and it never really went away (later, in Nightblade, when he observes his relationship with the strix, I actually completely agreed, after reading this: he was not really anything at all to them, and if anything, a figure of nebulous to negative benefit).

What I'm left wondering, is how different would he feel had he always harbored memories of his mother, or his childhood, or Desna? And had still been a mystic theurge during the last half of the book - only he'd found some new faith to kindle himself? It was just something on my mind, based on how different the prologue of this book was comapred to how I had imagined Isiem's childhood.

Contributor

Ha, I don't think any author ever worries about people being too forward in asking questions about their work. Mostly we're just thrilled anyone is interested! ;)

So, on Isiem and his subdued affect: What I was aiming for in some of his Nightglass-era portrayal is someone who has learned that it hurts a lot to get attached to people, and worse if you let that show. All his school friends (who are his only friends) get destroyed, one after another, and there's nothing he can do to stop it. In the end, he destroys Helis himself, because the alternative is worse.

If you go through that much trauma continually, over and over again, then you do end up not caring about anything very much, because caring about things sucks. In my view, this is how you end up with the LE Nidalese personality profile: so profoundly inured to suffering that the only thing left to do is cut (yourself or others) to feel something, because everything else is just buried under emotional scar tissue.

Isiem doesn't go all the way to that extreme, partly because of his mother's influence, partly because Velenne pushes him out of it, partly because he has enough of a moral core to rebel inside, to some degree. But he's still a product of his environment. So part of what I was aiming for -- and I'm perfectly willing to concede that it might not have worked, but what I was trying to do -- was show in Nightglass pt. 1 how a "normal" kid becomes Nidalese, and in Nightglass pt. 2 how that same person goes into an emotional limbo (not yet transformed into a hero, really), and in Nightblade we finally see him start to take the last step into becoming a more active protagonist in his own life.

Realistically I think it takes about that long to develop a sense of agency when your entire life has been about not having agency (except in the very narrow sense of "exactly how do I want to hurt this person today?"), BUT, like I said before, I don't think that spending so much time chronicling the transformation of a mopey wizard into a marginally less mopey wizard was the best storytelling choice in retrospect. So, oops.

I did have fun with the monsters, though. ;)

Contributor

As for Isiem and his relationship with Velenne and his history afterward:

So, in that whole dynamic, Velenne never really finds Isiem all that compelling (hence why she's not particularly satisfied with him in bed and doesn't bother hiding it, and lo, he is angsty and Sad). And, again, he has no agency there; it's straight sub/dom without a struggle, which also bores her, but he's not capable of being or doing anything else at that point. She's the teacher and he's the apprentice and that's that.

Given that dynamic, Velenne's pretty much just screwing with him for lols because she can. While she's stationed in Pangolais, she doesn't have anything better to occupy her time, and so that's what she does for fun. For her it's mostly a head game, undercutting his loyalties to Nidal and establishing a relationship that might be useful to her/Cheliax later. But on her end there's no huge fiery attraction; she ignores him for months and then it's like eh, why not. Velenne has one great love in her life (which is also screwed up for its own reasons, because she is who she is) and it's not Isiem.

On his end, I think he's probably just happy to have somebody who's (sort of) nice to him occasionally, and it helps that she's fascinating in her own peculiar fashion. It ends up being formative for him, but it's about as asymmetrical as a relationship can be.

Afterward I figure he'd experiment occasionally, and make abortive attempts at forming real relationships, but never find whatever it is he's looking for. Partly that's because at that stage of his life I don't think Isiem would have the capacity to open himself to embracing (or maybe even understanding) what it is he really wants, and partly it's because his range of available partners basically comes down to a bunch of LE arcane casters -- not the most promising place to find True Love. But he'd try, a few times, and it wouldn't work, and probably more angsting goes there.

Anyway, in a nutshell, I think that whole aspect of his life up until the later part of Nightblade can be summarized as "woe and flailery." When your healthiest relationship was with a Chelish diabolist who was straight-up toying with you, that is a thing of sadness.

Contributor

Finally (and sorry for blathering on at such length!):

xeose4 wrote:
What I'm left wondering, is how different would he feel had he always harbored memories of his mother, or his childhood, or Desna? And had still been a mystic theurge during the last half of the book - only he'd found some new faith to kindle himself?

That's a really interesting question.

My view (and, again, this probably falls under the umbrella of "things I was going for that didn't altogether make it onto the page as clearly as they should have") is that Isiem was, in forgetting, trying to protect both his mother and himself.

He lives in a world where mindreading magic exists, and where he knows for a fact that his superiors in the Dusk Hall are watching the students constantly for any sign of disloyalty, and all of those superiors are by definition either arcane or divine casters. Therefore, thinking too often or too openly about his mother being a Desnan is potentially very bad news both for himself and for her. Furthermore, it's one thing to be a secret Desnan way out in the provinces, up close to the border. It's much riskier to have (or think about) that allegiance in the heart of Pangolais.

So shutting down those memories, in that context, becomes a survival tactic. You cannot even think about secrets without running the risk that they'd get discovered and the one person who ever really loved you might get tortured horribly.

Unfortunately I thought all of this and then I never wrote it down explicitly so welp, that's no use. Lessons for next time. ;)

I haven't decided if Isiem will ever convert to another faith and reclaim his lost cleric levels. It would be interesting but I don't know yet how it would be most interesting.


xeose4 wrote:
What I'm left wondering, is how different would he feel had he always harbored memories of his mother, or his childhood, or Desna? And had still been a mystic theurge during the last half of the book - only he'd found some new faith to kindle himself?

That's exactly what i felt. Even during the first book i was thinking this would happen sometimes.

Liane Merciel wrote:
I haven't decided if Isiem will ever convert to another faith and reclaim his lost cleric levels. It would be interesting but I don't know yet how it would be most interesting.

Well if you ever do, I'm buying the book. Finding another (most probably the Desnan) faith and somehow connecting to his past would be a very interesting way to wrap some things up. Maybe his mothers past catches up with him ? A bit of insight in the mysterious Desna and her faith would also be great, since she's also quite the weird deity although good of course.

I loved the look into Nidal/Pangolais, you did some great worldbuilding there, and would be very interested to see Isiem and the story return there. The Desna'n underground freedom fighters are an as of yet untapped aspect of Nidal in your stories.

I would love to see Astarathian from Dragons Revisited feature in a high level story in Pangolais, and see some with the Nidalese government and the Dark Druids.

Also of course a final confrontation/resolution with his friend and their different lifepaths would be great.


The connection between the weird outer space Desna and Zon Kuthon is imho the connection to the Dark Tapestry. A great mystery to explore...

And her portfolios/theme of liberation/freedom, luck and travel are very fitting for Isiem. Only the dreams are missing for now.

And now for something completely different:

What level is Isiem right now ? Any insights from the books ? (highest level spell cast?) Also what about his alignment? Do you all concur on CN ?

Contributor

Conversion to Desna is a big "maaaybe."

My major qualm there is sort of meta: there are a lot of PTales characters who worship Desna already, and other authors are doing enough interesting and creative stuff with that deity that I'm not sure I'd have anything worthwhile to add.

So I'm kind of vaguely leaning toward Shelyn instead, partly because she's had less coverage in the fiction and partly because the Shelyn/Z-K backstory seems like it could be interesting.

But that's all super super vague and nebulous. No need to rush to any decisions on that for a while. :)


Liane Merciel wrote:

Conversion to Desna is a big "maaaybe."

My major qualm there is sort of meta: there are a lot of PTales characters who worship Desna already, and other authors are doing enough interesting and creative stuff with that deity that I'm not sure I'd have anything worthwhile to add.

That hasn't stopped a plethora of non-good, anti-hero rogue-like male main characters from being written though :P

I'm just poking fun! All those characters have managed to be differentiated and fun to read; I think any take you did would be fun as well. It's really fascinating to see you thinking about the meta, and specifically "well what would Desna add" but does the deity have to add anything? To me it seems like focus could reasonably be on his own finding the new faith and the exact deity is irrelevant. If his mother had worshiped Shelyn I'd be advocating for Shelyn! But right now, after this book, I guess I'd be surprised since he does seem at least in line with Desna, whereas I (as just the reader) don't understand what would appeal to him, a mopey intellectual wizard disconnected from himself and his feelings, about the goddess of arts and romantic love.

If trodding new ground is of interest though, what about the empyreal lords? Specifically, I'm wondering about the Black Butteryfly - basically Desna's inverted shadow. there's a connection to all the things that Thanael mentioned, with the added bonus of being different. I dunno, just a thought.

I am with Thanael also in wanting closure with Ascaros. I have faith that Isiem is smart enough to pull him free of Nidal! Somehow...


Thanael wrote:

And now for something completely different:

What level is Isiem right now ? Any insights from the books ? (highest level spell cast?) Also what about his alignment? Do you all concur on CN ?

I know during Nightblade it's almost flat-out stated that he's level 10 (he can cast teleport, his highest spell). I actually didn't know until this one that he was ever a theurge, though I knew Ascaros was. If that's the case and he simply has dead levels without spell slots, he may be more like 12 or 14, while Ascaros is at least 14-16 (as he can cast teleport as a sorcerer who's ALSO a mystic theurge and delayed in level).

I actually disagree with the CN stance - he strikes me as extremely concerned with the law and what's "right" or "just". Neutral to be sure, even with Nightblade; he doesn't seem driven to do the right (re: morally virtuous) thing for its sake alone, but more for the fact that he has certain qualms about people with power doing things unnecessarily. Imo chaotic would come in if he did things heedless of laws or code, or wasn't so preoccupied with justifying his actions. I view his constant searching for external validation to be either N or LN, depending on how successful you feel he is at conforming to what someone else tells him is right or wrong.


Don't be meta! ;-) I'd love to hear you explore the weirder side if Desna or the Black Butterfly maybe. Which other novels feature clerics/worshipped of Desna btw? I'm aware only of Dave Gross.

I honestly can't see Isiem worshiping Shelyn though maybe you could convince me otherwise. But adds as connection to darkness, travel, luck and the stars and butterflies and her weirdness are much more fitting for him IMHO. And they tie better into the weird Nidalese shadow stuff.

Nightstar maybe?


Stoic Optimism a Desnan religion trait fits Isiem IMHO.

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