New Arcana (Arcane Bloodline) with Eldritch Heritage

[Amaurot]

I have searched for the topic and know it have been asked several times but I still don't get the answer so sorry please pardon me.

Eldritch Heritage:
Gain a first-level bloodline power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2.

Improved Eldritch Heritage:
Gain a 3rd-level or the 9th-level power (your choice), treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2.

Greater Eldritch Heritage:
Gain a 15th-level (or lower) power that you do not already have, treat your character level as your sorcerer level

New Arcana (Ex) (From Arcane Bloodline):
At 9th (Sorcerer) level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known.
This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting.
You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.

Q1. are the rules supposed to let us gain new spells from New Arcana from IEH even if we don't have sorcerer level?

Q2. if Yes, what is the capable casting level meant by "This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting."?
Does that mean the pseudo-sorcerer level that is capable to cast the spell?
Say if I am a lvl 11 Oracle, the pseudo-sorcerer level will be 11-2=9, a lvl 9 Sor is capable to cast a 4th lvl Sor/Wiz spell, so I can gain a 4th lvl Sor/Wiz spell, am I right?

Q3. and which oracle slots will be used to cast the spells? 4th?

[LazarX]

1. Obviously not since the feat does include the line "this must be of a level you are capable of casting No amount of eldritch heritage monkeyshines gives you spellcaasting ability if you don't have it already.

2. No, see 1 above.

3. No, see 2 above.

[Amaurot]

Thanks for your reply. Does that mean even the feat did say "For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2", it won't grant me any pseudo-sorcerer casting ability?

[LazarX]

Amaurot wrote:

Thanks for your reply. Does that mean even the feat did say "For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2", it won't grant me any pseudo-sorcerer casting ability?

That's EXACTLY what it means. The pseudo class (NOT CASTER) level is only for the purposes of utilizing the arcana and bloodline powers granted by the feats.

Feats, powers, and abilities do not give you anything beyond what they say they do.

[Sandslice]

Actually... I see it a bit differently.

To Q1, this is how I see it.
-If you are any sort of caster, you get the spell in your spells known (or, for prep arcane casters, your method of "storing" known spells.)
-If you are not a caster (and this includes alchemists,) you get nothing. Also, just what in the secret names of Korgash are you doing taking ARCANE bloodline as a non-caster? :P

To Q2:
The BP refers to spells whose level you can cast.
"At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level."

An 11th level cleric is capable of casting 6th level spells, and may therefore take a 6th level sorcerer spell; it does not matter that a Sor 9 is limited to 4th level spells.

And, finally, to Q3:
At the slot corresponding to the spell's sorcerer level. The cleric may prepare her new L6 spell in one of her normal L6 slots.

The oracle (who at L11 hasn't gained her 6th level spells yet) could pick any sorcerer spell up to L5; its level determines what slot you will normally use.

-----

Edit to add: New arcana, as written, doesn't require any pseudo-class. It only requires that you be able to cast spells of the same level as the desired spell.

[Chess Pwn]

this FAQ stops an oracle from gaining wizard spells from this.

[Amaurot]

Thanks for the FAQ, should have checked it more thoroughly.

And one more question, can I cast Giant Vermin on my vermin familiar?

As the Share Spells states "A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast)."

[kestral287]

You get the spells as 'spells known', even if you're a Fighter.

You do not have any way to deliver the spells unless they're compatible with your spell list. So basically, what Chess Pwn said.

[Nefreet]

Amaurot wrote:

can I cast Giant Vermin on my vermin familiar?

As the Share Spells states "A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast)."

I answered this over in your other thread.

[Sandslice]

kestral287 wrote:

You get the spells as 'spells known', even if you're a Fighter.

You do not have any way to deliver the spells unless they're compatible with your spell list. So basically, what Chess Pwn said.

Wouldn't New Arcana prevent you from choosing any spells as a Fighter, because it calls out "a level that you are capable of casting" ? On the other hand, an 11th level cleric (or wizard) can choose a sixth level spell.

And now I have some other questions - for which the FAQ can be credited or blamed. Assume that the spell is on the sorcerer list and the feat-taker's list.

1. If an arcanist takes new arcana, is it a bonus (but fixed) spell known, or it only known as an option for what the arcanist can load? (I'd say the former.)

2. Certain spells (eg, antimagic field) are lower level for sorcerers than for clerics. As such, if an oracle takes I. Eldritch Heritage (New Arcana) at L13, can he:
-Take AMF and cast it as a 6th level spell now; or
-Take AMF, still be forced to wait until L16, and cast it as a 6th level spell; or
-Take AMF, which is useless to him because he has to wait until L16 and cast it as 8th level?
(The reverse, with hold person as an example, is similar but less of a problem.)

3. For pure prep casters, is the spell "known":
-In the Spell Mastery sense, as a spell you can prep without the spellbook; or
-As a spell added to your spellbook; or
-If a divine-prep caster, as a new option that your spell-source can grant; or
-As a known spell (in the spontaneous caster sense) and so you can't use it because you don't cast that way?

[kestral287]

Sandslice wrote:

And now I have some other questions - for which the FAQ can be credited or blamed. Assume that the spell is on the sorcerer list and the feat-taker's list.

1. If an arcanist takes new arcana, is it a bonus (but fixed) spell known, or it only known as an option for what the arcanist can load? (I'd say the former.)

He puts the spell or spells into his spellbook, and treats them like any other spells in his book.

Sandslice wrote:

2. Certain spells (eg, antimagic field) are lower level for sorcerers than for clerics. As such, if an oracle takes I. Eldritch Heritage (New Arcana) at L13, can he:

-Take AMF and cast it as a 6th level spell now; or
-Take AMF, still be forced to wait until L16, and cast it as a 6th level spell; or
-Take AMF, which is useless to him because he has to wait until L16 and cast it as 8th level?
(The reverse, with hold person as an example, is similar but less of a problem.)

D. Not take AMF, because it's not of a spell level that he can cast.

Sandslice wrote:

3. For pure prep casters, is the spell "known":

-In the Spell Mastery sense, as a spell you can prep without the spellbook; or
-As a spell added to your spellbook; or
-If a divine-prep caster, as a new option that your spell-source can grant; or
-As a known spell (in the spontaneous caster sense) and so you can't use it because you don't cast that way?

Spellbook for the former, spell-source for the latter (which makes it entirely useless- if a prepared divine caster has the spell on his list he can cast it, so making it a 'spell known' is pointless since he already knows the spell by definition).

[Sandslice]

kestral287 wrote:

D. Not take AMF, because it's not of a spell level that he can cast.

Rewinding:

-New Arcana adds a sorcerer spell. You must pick a spell of a level you are capable of casting.
-AMF is a 6th level sorcerer spell.
-A 13th level oracle (of 16 Cha or higher, of course) is capable of casting 6th level spells.
-AMF is on the cleric spell list. (At 8th level, but that should not matter here, because New Arcana is giving you the spell from the sorcerer list and therefore at the sorcerer-spell level.)
Therefore, a 13th level oracle gaining New Arcana can pick AMF.

Quote:

Spellbook for the former, spell-source for the latter (which makes it entirely useless- if a prepared divine caster has the spell on his list he can cast it, so making it a 'spell known' is pointless since he already knows the spell by definition).

Actually... it depends on the oracle question. It may be possible to make it a "spell known" at a lower level than your class normally gets it.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Sandslice, the spell doesn't appear on the oracle spell list as a 6th level spell, so it can't be added to spells known as a 6th level spell other than by a class feature of the oracle class. IEH doesn't work for this, as per the FAQ linked upthread.

[Sandslice]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Sandslice, the spell doesn't appear on the oracle spell list as a 6th level spell, so it can't be added to spells known as a 6th level spell other than by a class feature of the oracle class. IEH doesn't work for this, as per the FAQ linked upthread.

That addresses spells that aren't on your own class list. If it's also intended to exclude spells that are on your list but at a different spell-level, then I'd suggest that New Arcana should be considered for an errata, so that it can't be gained through Eldritch Heritage unless you have the bloodline class feature (ie, sorcerers and bloodragers.)

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

There's really no need for that, since IEH can be used to take the 3rd level bloodline power as well, and that does have effects that can be used by any spellcaster. The Eldritch Heritage line allowing one to take bloodline powers that have no effect, due to a class not having features that allow the powers to be used, is not a problem with the feats or the class features. One simply does not choose those bloodline powers when taking the feat.

[Sandslice]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

There's really no need for that, since IEH can be used to take the 3rd level bloodline power as well, and that does have effects that can be used by any spellcaster.

Metamagic Adept only works for spontaneous casters, because its mechanic has no meaning for prep casters. An oracle could use it, but a cleric couldn't.