Can you make a called shot with a touch spell?


Rules Questions


My DM remembers that when he was a player, they would cast light on people's eyes to blind them. With the added mechanism of called shots, could you do that?


Also, does making the touch attack to land the spell provoke an AoO?


So, light specifies the target as object touched.

A creature isn't an object. And trying to target it's eyes doesn't make it any less of a creature.

You are trying to simulate a 2nd level spell (Blindness/Deafness) by instead using a 0 level spell.

So no, not even a little allowable.

As far as using called shots with spell attacks...it's unclear if they work together. I suspect that they do, but only spells that deal damage.

You could shocking grasp them into their eye, and if you did well enough blind them in a single eye. See the called shot rules for further details.


Light hasn't been able to blind people since... 3.0? I know it existed in AD&D, I'm not sure when it was phased out. No, you can't do it with called shots. It's not a valid target and light doesn't blind people who get too close to it (unless you think you should be able to hold your light rock next to someone's eyes and blind them).

As for called shots with spells, as far as I can tell you should be able to but the spell has to do damage. All the called shots say "injury".


It was continual light that could do it, if I remember correctly - don't have my AD&D books here. I don't think it could at all in 3.0.

But RAW, you could not. It specifies an object as the target.


Claxon wrote:

So, light specifies the target as object touched.

A creature isn't an object. And trying to target it's eyes doesn't make it any less of a creature.

You are trying to simulate a 2nd level spell (Blindness/Deafness) by instead using a 0 level spell.

So no, not even a little allowable.

As far as using called shots with spell attacks...it's unclear if they work together. I suspect that they do, but only spells that deal damage.

You could shocking grasp them into their eye, and if you did well enough blind them in a single eye. See the called shot rules for further details.

Creature and Object aren't mutually exclusive. A houseplant is an object, but not a creature, granted, but you wouldn't hesitate to consider a Construct both an object and a creature. Any tangible object is an object, creature or not. The only time something would be considered a creature but not an object would be if they had absolutely no tangible form with which to interact (ie. incorporeal).

That having been said, called shots are more about damage; dealing a damaging attack to the said area will injure it. Having the Light spell blind a target would be a completely different application. Light radiates from the object, not towards it, so casting light "on a person's eyes" would be like giving them a pair of glasses with LEDs built in all around the rim, facing forwards. Maybe, using a metamagic or some other feat, but there are feats that do this but they only work on the Daylight spell or spell-like ability. Flare Metamagic works on fire, lightening, or light descriptor spells, but only inflicts Dazzled and it only works if the target takes damage from the spell. A non-damaging cantrip like light, fundamentally, cannot do what is being proposed without some significant drawback to balance it out.


Constructs are the only creature type that is also possibly an object. There status as whether they are or aren't objects isn't completely clear within game terms.

Generally speaking, I do not consider constructs objects. I've actually been looking for a definite answer on the status of constructs.


Just slap your hat though and BAM! you've got your own light source now though. Completely off topic. And true.


Okay. What about the AoO?


If you make a touch attack with the light spell? Yeah...that probably would provoke. Damaging touch spells don't provoke because you're considered armed, but non-damaging touch spells...those probably would still provoke as you're not armed.


Claxon wrote:
Constructs are the only creature type that is also possibly an object.[citation needed]

There is nothing that indicates that claim. The game defines "creature" as:

Quote:
Creature: A creature is an active participant in the story or world. This includes PCs, NPCs, and monsters.

There is no game definition for the word "object" so we can go with the most applicable dictionary definition: "anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form." Now, a Humanoid would not be an item, but a Humanoid is most certainly "visible or tangible and relatively stable in form" and, thus, an object. A construct like a Golem, while non-living, would also satisfy both the criteria to be both an object and a creature. An animated object would be all three; item, object, and creature. A ficus, on the other hand, isn't a creature because it isn't an active participant in the story or world. It is living and an object, but not a creature.


I am assuming that generally speaking, objects and creatures are two mutually exclusive things in game mechanics terms. Which is supported by the way in which the magic and spell system works.

Again, constructs are the only creature that might possibly blend the two. And as you note, there are unfortunately not particularly strong rules for defining what is and isn't an object (in the game mechanics sense).

Such as, plant creatures are definitely creatures and not objects.

Quote:

Plant

This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive. A plant creature has the following features.

That strongly implies to me that there is relatively strict separation of creatures and objects, and that at least for the most part anything that is mechanically a creature is not also mechanically an object.


No, it's stating that just because something is alive doesn't automatically mean it's a creature. Both Undead and Constructs are creatures despite not being alive, but that doesn't stop them from being objects when you consider spell targets. A creature is an active participant in the story/world; how, precisely, is that mutually exclusive with being "anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form"? A Humanoid is an object and a creature. Same goes for Dragons, Animals, Outsiders and, essentially, every other creature. Being alive isn't a prerequisite nor a guarantee of being a creature. So a tree is alive and an object, but not a creature nor an item. A Human is alive, an object, and a creature, but not an item. An Animated Sword is an object, a creature, and an item, but not alive. A sack of flour is an object and an item, but neither alive nor a creature. A zombie is an object and a creature, but neither an item nor alive. A ray of sunlight is none of these. A disembodied soul is a creature, but it isn't alive, nor an object, nor an item. These are completely separate criteria that interlock in a variety of different ways.


So you're saying you think that a spell like Obscure Object should work on a human? Because they are a creature and object?

Even though spells like Nondetection and Mindblank exist which are either higher level or don't work as well?


Creatures and object are completely separate in the game, other wise spells and the rules text would not bother to specify them. Some spells work on both, but if a spell works on one, then it does not work on the other.
A creature may not be "alive" but it has a life force, when is what people mean when they say a vampire or construct is still living, even though they know it is not alive in the same sense that a human is.


Claxon wrote:

So you're saying you think that a spell like Obscure Object should work on a human? Because they are a creature and object?

Even though spells like Nondetection and Mindblank exist which are either higher level or don't work as well?

I'm saying that's what a careful, logical analysis of the rules establishes. Obscure Object only protects against Divination(scrying). It would offer no protection against spells like Clairvoyance or Locate Object which aren't of the scrying subschool. It also wouldn't work on creatures that aren't objects such as ghosts. Nondetection, on the other hand, protects against a broader range of Divination effects, though not infallibly and doesn't work against non-divination means of information gathering such as Miracle/Wish. Mind Blank protects against everything and infallibly so, but only works on Creatures. So you can Mind Blank a Humanoid, a Golem, an Undead, or an Animated Object (not an exhaustive list) since all these are creatures. You could not, however, Mind Blank a ficus since it isn't a creature. There's a reason, you know, why Undead still need to make a Fort save against spells that can affect objects. It's all right there in the rules; I've even done all the heavy lifting already. There is nothing, neither explicit nor implied, that indicates that Creature and Object are mutually exclusive terms.


Kazaan just to be clear is your argument just for the sake of discussion or do you really think spells that call out creatures or objects are intended by the devs to also affect something in the other category?. And do you also think it is really hard to distinguish between when something is a creature or an object in an actual game?

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:
If you make a touch attack with the light spell? Yeah...that probably would provoke. Damaging touch spells don't provoke because you're considered armed, but non-damaging touch spells...those probably would still provoke as you're not armed.

It won't provoke. Any touch spell make your touch attack a armed attack:

PRD wrote:
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Claxon wrote:
If you make a touch attack with the light spell? Yeah...that probably would provoke. Damaging touch spells don't provoke because you're considered armed, but non-damaging touch spells...those probably would still provoke as you're not armed.

It won't provoke. Any touch spell make your touch attack a armed attack:

PRD wrote:
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

I'm aware, but I think that is really about spells that are meant to be used as touch attacks, which generally cause some sort of damage. However, using light which has a target of object touch (but doesn't actually grant a touch attack) might still provoke. It is a little unclear.

That said, I think it's unlikely to actually come up in a meaningful way in most game.


wraithstrike wrote:
Kazaan just to be clear is your argument just for the sake of discussion or do you really think spells that call out creatures or objects are intended by the devs to also affect something in the other category?. And do you also think it is really hard to distinguish between when something is a creature or an object in an actual game?

"Or" is not the same as "Exclusive Or". They don't list "creatures or objects" as a matter of distinction, it's a matter of inclusion. They want both creatures that aren't objects as well as objects that aren't creatures to be included, but there is a vast area of overlap in between. And no, I don't think it's hard to distinguish whether something is a creature or an object. It's just two Boolean values: Creature (1/0), Object (1/0). Valid permutations are (Creature:true, Object:true), (Creature:true, Object:false), (Creature:false, Object:true), and (Creature:false, Object:false). There are other Boolean values that I listed such as "Living" and "Item". There's no such thing as an argument "just for the sake of discussion". In order to be defined as an argument, it must be a meaningful position so the sake of determining a correct conclusion. I used the data available, analyzed it, and established my logical position. If someone can provide additional meaningful data or a valid alternate interpretation, I'll change my mind. But a person that spawns a conflicting idea merely for the sake of conflict is a troll and to do that would be anathema to me. So, from now into perpetuity, you can rest assured that if I present a conflicting interpretation, it is because of brainpower and not boredom.


Let me put this another way, if they specifically call out affecting creatures(such as "target: creature touched" in a spell do you also think they intend for it to also affect objects?


If they specifically call out target:creature, they mean it to affect a creature. That creature may also happen to be an object, but even if the creature isn't an object, that is inconsequential. You couldn't, for instance, use it on a ficus. But you could use it on an incorporeal creature (provided it's a magic, force, or other kind of effect that can affect incorporeal). You can have a red door. You can also have a door that isn't red, or something that is red, but not a door. You can even have something that is neither red, nor a door. If the Target were "Door", it wouldn't matter whether or not the door is red. If the target were "red or door", that doesn't mean it wouldn't affect a red door.

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