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Question. With Marat's ability, could one switch places with a grappled ally?

Example: Tim the enchanter has found himself embraced by an overly affectionate shambling mound. Bob the skull-squishing occultist wishes to be a stupid hero and switch places with the currently grappled Tim. If Bob had made a pact with Marat that day, could he switch places with Tim, taking his place as the grappled person?

Also, I figured I'd drop a possible secret idea. Essentially the rogue talent that grants a combat feat, but in secret form for occultists. I guess it could be limited to occultist feats, but I feel it'd be a bit less useful then.


Questions on Greensprout Rapscallion:

1) The bind spirits class feature of the Rapscallion doesn't advance an occultist's maximum number of spirits bound, right?
2) The improved AC bonus at higher levels appears to be missing.
3) The eternally young trick: given that permanent pact is a requirement for the class, how could you ever not be bound to Tommy? Antimagic type effects/other spells to banish spirits? If that's the only time it's relevant, that seems rather weak for a trick, when other choices include a bonus feat or effects better than feats (eg childish bliss, which is improved [maneuver] + improved bab with maneuver). It doesn't even prevent you dying of old age, since the capstone deals with that.
4) Also the eternally young trick: the ability says you're effectively a Child eternally. Is that supposed to be a Youth? If it shifts your age down to Child, that...actually makes it even worse, as you take a -2 to all your ability scores. Several of the other abilities also seem to assume you're a child; is this a class feature I've missed?
5) Hide from Adults: given that the character is a Youth, does this mean that they themselves are unable to find whoever they hide? What happens if they hide themselves? Come to think of it, this is a more general question about that spell.
6) Swipe Memories: Does this happen in addition to the normal effect of swipe age, or instead of it? Also, is it intentional that targeting a creature with swipe age will qualify them for having their memories swiped for [level] days, even if the original effect only lasted 1 hour/level?
7) Rapscallion Band: What counts as a "leadership modifier"? Just the situational modifiers (great renown, etc)? Your charisma modifier? Your character level? And do penalties also get doubled? If it just applies to situational modifiers and penalties are doubled, it's quite possible to have that part of the ability be a detriment.

I'd like to say that I really like the flavour of this class, and it was strong enough that I went from "not planning to use pact magic at all" to "definitely taking this class ASAP, what's the best way to get the spirit and feats?" with a certain character over the course of my first readthrough of it.

On a related note, a lot of abilities which give flight speed include a clause saying that if you already have a flight speed, that speed gets improved by some amount instead. Is there any chance that Tommy's Soaring Spirits could get something like that?

Contributor

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Is there a particular reason the Angel Constellation's Sacred Touch doesn't scale like the Fiend Constellation's Unholy Touch does?

Nope. [Fixed.]

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For Mage Constellation, do you pick the element for Elemental Ray when making the pact, or is it every time you use the ability? I was thinking Radiant Light was objectively better, since it's untyped and an additional 1d6 every two levels is on average still slightly better than +1/level, but if you get to pick every time you use it, it might offer some decent versatility...

Yes, you have to pick. I don't like how similar I ended up making elemental ray and radiant missile, so here's the update for radiant missile:

"Radiant Missile: While she is bound to an angel spirit, the occultist can unleash a missile of holy energy as a standard action, functioning as magic missile. The damage dealt to an evil outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature increases to 1d6 points of damage. If the target has light sensitivity, light blindness, or vulnerability to light, it takes the penalty from that weakness for 1 round. The occultist can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier."

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Did you catch my correction of one of your updates? here

Yes. I just didn't post about it because it was likely quicker for me to fix it and just move on.

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I have gone through the spirits and constellation aspects and have compiled the following list of spell-like abilities / "functions as" that have material components that cost >1gp.

That's a very nice presentation that you put together there and the list of solutions looks good. The problem is that there's no way that I'm going to be able to edit all of those spirits to make those special exceptions fit for them. The purpose of having general rules is to save space in the spirit sections, because we (Dario and I) need to be very precise with how space is budgeted in this book, especially the Spirits chapter. So forgive me when I say that I don't have the room to even attempt at implementing your suggestions.

Ultimately, this is the solution that I'm going with:

"A granted ability that functions as a spell uses the binder’s level as its caster level; likewise, any spell-like ability granted to a binder by a spell-like ability uses the binder’s level as its caster level. If a minor granted ability functions as a spell that requires a material component that costs more than 100 gp, the binder must supply that material component in order to use that granted ability. Likewise, if a minor granted ability grants a spell-like ability with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, the binder must supply that material component in order to cast that spell-like ability. If a minor granted ability replicates a spell or grants a spell-like ability with a material component with a varying cost, such as fabricate or raise dead, she must always supply that spell’s material component in order to use that ability or cast that spell, regardless of the material component’s cost.

A granted ability that functions as a spell inherits the spell’s school and descriptors for the purpose of determining how it interacts with other effects; for instance, an elf is immune to sleep effects caused by a granted ability that functions as a sleep spell. A granted ability that grants a spell effect to the binder always affects the binder, regardless of type; for example, an aasimar that seals a pact with Aza’azati can reduce her size using the smaller is better granted ability even though reduce person (which smaller is better functions as) normally cannot target outsiders."


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Both the Occult Sadist and the Pact Protector Inquisitor archetypes get the same exact ability for binding spirits. Yet the Occult Sadist gets diminished spellcasting while the Pact Protector loses spellcasting altogether. There's nothing that the Pact Protector gets that makes the loss of spell casting worth it when the other Inquisitor archetype gets the identical ability without losing spell casting.
This is flat wrong. The occult sadist has lore of pain, which states she can only seal pacts with spirits from the Fiend constellation. The pactsworn protector, however, can seal a pact with any spirit she likes and she trades her teamwork feats for pact augmentations, which are generally more useful to the inquisitor because they're numeric bonuses that don't require anything special to use.

Ah. I see it now. I was reading just the Bind Spirit ability and they were identical. I missed the Lore of Pain restricting the Occult Sadist to one constellation.

That makes a lot more sense. .

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And why would a Pact Protector want the ability to perform an Exorcism (from the occult domain)? The single subdomain that can replace it doesn't seem to fit within the archetype's flavor either. I feel like there should be one more subdomain which replaces the 8th level domain power. Maybe granting the binding secret Empower Major Ability or Bouncing Major Ability so they can better defend the Pact.
By that logic, why should the occultist have a binder secret that can dismiss pacts? The simple answer is that if you're really good at something, you should be able to counter that thing too. Pact magic deities recognize this, which is why even the gods who are benevolent towards pact magic give their followers a means to quickly terminate pacts. (No one ever said that you couldn't exorcise yourself, after all. Its not ideal, but its doable. Any pact protectors that have ever had to deal with ravager spirits know this all-too well.)

An occultist can be a very wide variety of personalities. A "pact protector" speaks to a smaller subset. While some occultists may choose exorcism, all Pact Protectors must have Exorcism or Grey Out with no other choices. What is it about protecting a pact that calls for *all* of them being able to do this? Your explanation leaves this wanting.

Edit: But, with space concerns, this difference is probably more irrelevant than we're giving time for. So I say leave it as is and we'll move on.


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Ultimately, this is the solution that I'm going with:

"A granted ability that functions as a spell uses the binder’s level as its caster level; likewise, any spell-like ability granted to a binder by a spell-like ability uses the binder’s level as its caster level. If a minor granted ability functions as a spell that requires a material component that costs more than 100 gp, the binder must supply that material component in order to use that granted ability. Likewise, if a minor granted ability grants a spell-like ability with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, the binder must supply that material component in order to cast that spell-like ability. If a minor granted ability replicates a spell or grants a spell-like ability with a material component with a varying cost, such as fabricate or raise dead, she must always supply that spell’s material component in order to use that ability or cast that spell, regardless of the material component’s cost.

A granted ability that functions as a spell inherits the spell’s school and descriptors for the purpose of determining how it interacts with other effects; for instance, an elf is immune to sleep effects caused by a granted ability that functions as a sleep spell. A granted ability that grants a spell effect to the binder always affects the binder, regardless of type; for example, an aasimar that seals a pact with Aza’azati can reduce her size using the smaller is better granted ability even though reduce person (which smaller is better functions as) normally cannot target outsiders."

This is a solid fix for the problem, simple and elegant. Serves the issue while retaining space.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:

I don't like how similar I ended up making elemental ray and radiant missile, so here's the update for radiant missile:

"Radiant Missile: While she is bound to an angel spirit, the occultist can unleash a missile of holy energy as a standard action, functioning as magic missile. The damage dealt to an evil outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature increases to 1d6 points of damage. If the target has light sensitivity, light blindness, or vulnerability to light, it takes the penalty from that weakness for 1 round. The occultist can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier."

Since it reads a missile of holy energy, does that mean you don't get more missiles as you increase in level? If not, I would suggest replacing "a missile" with "one or more missiles" or something similar. Looks like a neat ability.

Side question, since it states, "A constellation aspect is considered a minor granted ability for the purpose of how it interacts with all effects," does share granted abilities grant the constellation aspect granted by the spirit to which the vestigial companion belongs, or not? I think it probably doesn't, but wasn't entirely certain, so thought I would ask.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
That's a very nice presentation that you put together there and the list of solutions looks good. The problem is that there's no way that I'm going to be able to edit all of those spirits to make those special exceptions fit for them. The purpose of having general rules is to save space in the spirit sections, because we (Dario and I) need to be very precise with how space is budgeted in this book, especially the Spirits chapter. So forgive me when I say that I don't have the room to even attempt at implementing your suggestions.

I understand the problem with space and needing a general rule to help conserve it; I was only concerned with the possibility of questionable rulings.

I've looked back at the spirits that would require special rulings and barring one or two they're all pretty full on text and I can see where even three words could cause issues.

I'll make one final proposal to see if I can bridge the gap:

Solution #2

In the Occultist class section on Constellation Aspects it is already established that:

Constellation Aspects wrote:
If a constellation aspect is marked with an asterisk(*), it physically alters her body, functioning as an additional physical sign. She can show or hide this physical sign just as she could any other.

Using this as already established should not be an issue--the reader is already trained to recognize a single-character modifier of abilities. This can be used to save valuable space on spirits for this and any future works:

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If a spirit's granted ability is marked with an asterisk(*), it requires the binder to show the spirit's physical sign in order to use the ability.

If a spirit's granted ability is marked with an ampersand(&), material components must be provided for the granted spell-like ability or spell-like effect. For example, Eschalon's sow misery acts as cursed earth, which requires 10,000gp worth of powdered onyx. If a binder does not provide the onyx she cannot use sow misery.

This will allow any spirit's entry to save on space by replacing a lengthy requirement with a single character.

If the above is followed:

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- The spirits I mentioned previously will only require a single additional character in their entries, which is no problem.

- Avoid any of the strangeness that could come up with general material-component required spell-like ability rulings that I mentioned previously, as well as any future rulings.
- Give the designers freedom to give a spirit any spell-like ability; if a material component is needed to balance out the ability then it is easily added to the entry at a negligible cost.
- Save on existing space for "You must show X's sign in order to receive this benefit." These 57+ characters are now condensed to *, which saves a ton of space.
: Entries with the above wording: 59
: Total characters saved: 3,363
- Allow for future general additional functions/rulings of granted abilities that can be as detailed as needed and replaced with a single character.

I'm hoping this will help alleviate the issues with space in the chapter as well as making the abilities as easy as possible to understand.

Contributor

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If a spirit's granted ability is marked with an asterisk(*), it requires the binder to show the spirit's physical sign in order to use the ability.

If a spirit's granted ability is marked with an ampersand(&), material components must be provided for the granted spell-like ability or spell-like effect. For example, Eschalon's sow misery acts as cursed earth, which requires 10,000gp worth of powdered onyx. If a binder does not provide the onyx she cannot use sow misery.

No good for two reasons:

A) I am all for fixing things and making improvements. I'd like to believe that I've shown this throughout the thread. However, removing the "it requires the binder to show the spirit's physical sign" line from the granted abilities is more then I'm willing to change. The problem with "training my readers to recognize that * means you show physical signs," is that for the past two years, I've already trained them to look in the text for that cue. Removing that would cause too much confusion short-term for very little benefit long-term.

B) My rule (the one bookrat quoted) addresses all of your problems without the need for me to go back and spend several hours editing the largest chapter in the book for very little gain.

C) Its one thing to have a special symbol that applies to four pages, where a simple scroll / page flip will find you what you're looking for. Its another thing to have that rule hidden away in a separate chapter when you're 120 pages deep in the current one.

Sorry, but my newly modified rule is staying. We can talk about improving the wording if its not clear, but I am not altering over half the product just to add a "shorthand" that adds additional time constraints to me without a significant return mechanically. Time I spend doing stuff like that is time that I could be using writing the nine starless spirits that were unlocked via stretch goals. ;-)

Contributor

Luthorne wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

I don't like how similar I ended up making elemental ray and radiant missile, so here's the update for radiant missile:

"Radiant Missile: While she is bound to an angel spirit, the occultist can unleash a missile of holy energy as a standard action, functioning as magic missile. The damage dealt to an evil outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature increases to 1d6 points of damage. If the target has light sensitivity, light blindness, or vulnerability to light, it takes the penalty from that weakness for 1 round. The occultist can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier."

Since it reads a missile of holy energy, does that mean you don't get more missiles as you increase in level? If not, I would suggest replacing "a missile" with "one or more missiles" or something similar. Looks like a neat ability.

This is the first line of magic missile:

"A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage."

It is literally a copy-paste of the first line of magic missile, with the word "magic" replaced with "holy."

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Side question, since it states, "A constellation aspect is considered a minor granted ability for the purpose of how it interacts with all effects," does share granted abilities grant the constellation aspect granted by the spirit to which the vestigial companion belongs, or not? I think it probably doesn't, but wasn't entirely certain, so thought I would ask.

You can share a constellation aspect with an ally, but your ally doesn't get your constellation aspect for free when you share a different ability with him/her.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Sorry, but my newly modified rule is staying. We can talk about improving the wording if its not clear, but I am not altering over half the product just to add a "shorthand" that adds additional time constraints to me without a significant return mechanically. Time I spend doing stuff like that is time that I could be using writing the nine starless spirits that were unlocked via stretch goals. ;-)

Not a problem--I like the new rule much better vs. the old rule and am happy with the change; I thought I found a way to save some space and wanted to present it but now I realize I didn't properly take into account the ratio of time spent vs. space saved.

For Tarturus's wall of suppression, how would you rule the material component would work? For my games, I'm thinking of it as 100gp of components (1,000gp for 10 minutes/level : 100gp for 1 minute/level), which then falls under the new 100gp cap, and therefore not requiring a component at all.

Again, thank you for all of your and Dario's hard work putting this product together as well as speaking to us on the forums. I'm looking forward to seeing the new starless spirits as well as the other chapters we will be getting soon! :)

Contributor

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For Death Howl's Ether Sight...the ability seems confusingly worded to me. Is the intent that you activate the ability as a standard action and that it lasts for a minute by default? Or do you have to maintain it by spending a standard action every round the see invisibility effect lasts? Or can it be initiated as a standard action, but maintained indefinitely without requiring actions until you reach the 1 minute/level limit? If it wasn't for the "as a standard action" part, I would presume either the first or third, and if it wasn't for the specifications for being used for one minute/level, I would assume it would last the normal duration for see invisibility when activated, but as it is...I'm still guessing it's supposed to be one or three, but I suppose I could see two if it was a balance issue...

I have no idea what you're trying to ask me here.

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For Loresir Claw's Whiffling, the flavor seems to imply it would deal sonic damage, but the actual damage is typeless. Is this purposeful?

It should be sonic damage. [Fixed.]

Orich wrote:

Extend Reserve:

- Increases the effectiveness of Reserve Spirit and so encourages its use in multiple binding builds
- Is another candidate for a 5th-level binder secret (with the adjustment to Reserve Spirit's prerequisites) and is focused on utility, not just altering a major ability
- More time that Reserve Spirit can be used increases its appeal for binders

Hopefully some of the others will help me make this argument as well. :)

I agree that Extend Reserve is a great secret, but I don't think it has the same draw as bountiful abilities. That one can be taken at low levels, which is category of secret that we're currently lacking.

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Comments about Ubro's channel energy ability.

I've thought a lot about this ability, and currently I'm leaning towards leaving it alone. I may revise my position on the ability, however.

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Also, I'm sure I've just missed the relevant information, but there seem to be a number of spirits with abilities which refer to saving throws, but don't specify what saves they are. Al'Kra is an example:

If you spot such an omission, please let me know; its an error, not a feature. Al'kra's inspire terror should have a Will save.

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Q: Marat's capstone empowerment says "If defend the ward is used as an immediate action in response to an attack, you become the target of the attack instead of your ally." What happens if you used the ability as an immediate action in response to being attacked yourself, to shift the tank into position to absorb the blow?

No. The wording of the capstone empowerment will be updated to the following:

"You can use defend the ward as a swift action. At 10th level, you can use defend the ward as an immediate action whenever an attack is made against one ally within 30 feet. After switching places with your ally, you become the target of the attack instead."

I think I'm officially caught up now. If I haven't answered your question and its not a grammar error / spelling error, please repost it below. If it is a grammar error / spelling error, I fixed it and simply didn't comment because I'm trying to work faster.

Contributor

Orich wrote:
Not a problem--I like the new rule much better vs. the old rule and am happy with the change; I thought I found a way to save some space and wanted to present it but now I realize I didn't properly take into account the ratio of time spent vs. space saved.

I'm a little uppity about it because during that long gap of time this week that I didn't answer any questions, I was actually reformatting the ENTIRE PDF. I figured out how grid-based text leading worked, so now all of the non-table text in the product is 100% aligned with each other. I want to see if I can figure out a good way to do tables too, but that'll be after the playtest.

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For Tarturus's wall of suppression, how would you rule the material component would work? For my games, I'm thinking of it as 100gp of components (1,000gp for 10 minutes/level : 100gp for 1 minute/level), which then falls under the new 100gp cap, and therefore not requiring a component at all.

Since this was the only granted ability that was really screwed over by the new universal rule, I went and added a line that states that you don't need the spell's material component.

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Again, thank you for all of your and Dario's hard work putting this product together as well as speaking to us on the forums. I'm looking forward to seeing the new starless spirits as well as the other chapters we will be getting soon! :)

I'm hoping to be able to work on them some more this week. I've been writing the frehmin race from the secret stretch goal(s) currently.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Alex, you've been doing a fantastic job putting up with all of us. Thank you for listening to our concerns and addressing each and every minor point we bring up and engaging in conversation about details. As a customer, play tester, and fan of this work, I'll tell you that it speaks great volumes that you listen and engage - and it brings about even greater customer loyalty.

So thank you for listening, even when we (and specifically me) have been a pain in the arse. :)


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Bookrat wrote:

Alex, you've been doing a fantastic job putting up with all of us. Thank you for listening to our concerns and addressing each and every minor point we bring up and engaging in conversation about details. As a customer, play tester, and fan of this work, I'll tell you that it speaks great volumes that you listen and engage - and it brings about even greater customer loyalty.

So thank you for listening, even when we (and specifically me) have been a pain in the arse. :)

Ditto. Seriously, it really is quite impressive how much work you put in.

Contributor

pi4t wrote:
1) The bind spirits class feature of the Rapscallion doesn't advance an occultist's maximum number of spirits bound, right?

Correct. Additional spirits are part of a class feature.

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2) The improved AC bonus at higher levels appears to be missing.

Its +1 at 4th and 8th levels, for a total of Charisma + 2.

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3) The eternally young trick: given that permanent pact is a requirement for the class, how could you ever not be bound to Tommy? Antimagic type effects/other spells to banish spirits? If that's the only time it's relevant, that seems rather weak for a trick, when other choices include a bonus feat or effects better than feats (eg childish bliss, which is improved [maneuver] + improved bab with maneuver). It doesn't even prevent you dying of old age, since the capstone deals with that.

Basically, its extraordinary and you have the ability even if Tommy Greensprout is forced to leave you for some reason, whether that's from antimagic field, banish pact spirits, or something far worse.

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4) Also the eternally young trick: the ability says you're effectively a Child eternally. Is that supposed to be a Youth? If it shifts your age down to Child, that...actually makes it even worse, as you take a -2 to all your ability scores. Several of the other abilities also seem to assume you're a child; is this a class feature I've missed?

5) Hide from Adults: given that the character is a Youth, does this mean that they themselves are unable to find whoever they hide? What happens if they hide themselves? Come to think of it, this is a more general question about that spell.

I think originally I had balanced everything around making you a Child, but I must have changed the spirit without changing the Prestige Class.

Hide from Adults is basically hide from undead, but focused on age category. Greensprout Rapscallions will have a special clause that allows them to always be treated as a child for that effect.

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6) Swipe Memories: Does this happen in addition to the normal effect of swipe age, or instead of it? Also, is it intentional that targeting a creature with swipe age will qualify them for having their memories swiped for [level] days, even if the original effect only lasted 1 hour/level?

You can't take swipe memories until 8th level, at which point age swipe is permanent. Swipe memories is permanent because it doesn't list a duration; it is covered by the "otherwise, this ability functions as modify memory" clause and modify memory is permanent.

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7) Rapscallion Band: What counts as a "leadership modifier"? Just the situational modifiers (great renown, etc)? Your charisma modifier? Your character level? And do penalties also get doubled? If it just applies to situational modifiers and penalties are doubled, it's quite possible to have that part of the ability be a detriment.

A leadership modifier is any of the bonuses found on that table in the Core Rulebook, like great renowned and such. If you're worried about the penalty, don't have Adults as cohorts and followers; Peter Pan didn't and everything worked out okay for him. ;-)


Alexander Augunas wrote:


This is the first line of magic missile:

"A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage."

It is literally a copy-paste of the first line of magic missile, with the word "magic" replaced with "holy."

I would ask that you seriously reconsider this change. The ability to fire a single magic missile is, honestly, nearly worthless past level 1, and 1d4+1 vs 1d6 is (I believe) mathematically identical. The old ability was likely too good (It was by far the best ranged offensive Constellation Aspect bar non) but this change moves it only just barely above the level of a cantrip. 1d4 damage, plus 1d4 damage per two binder levels (as a ranged touch attack) would be much more in line with Fiend's Sow Destruction , Dark Beyond Void Ray and Dragons Draconic Breath .


Alexander Augunas wrote:

Its +1 at 4th and 8th levels, for a total of Charisma + 2.

Ah. There seems to be an error in the following sentence, then:

"At 2nd level and every 2 levels afterwards,
this dodge bonus increases as indicated on Table X-X: The
Greensprout Rapscallion."

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Basically, its extraordinary and you have the ability even if Tommy Greensprout is forced to leave you for some reason, whether that's from antimagic field, banish pact spirits, or something far worse.

I see. I still don't think it's a very useful ability - it doesn't come up very often, and when it does you've still lost access to nearly all your other class features, including Tommy's granted abilities. Would it be possible to buff it so that you retain access to Tommy's abilities even if he's dismissed for some reason? As it is, I can't see myself taking it - if the DM is sufficiently dispel-happy for this to be worth taking as it is, I wouldn't use a pact magic character at all.

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Hide from Adults is basically hide from undead, but focused on age category. Greensprout Rapscallions will have a special clause that allows them to always be treated as a child for that effect.

Ok. I am a bit concerned that unless the BBEG happens to be a child, this is basically 10min/level greater invisibility, albeit allowing a will save, as a second level spell.

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You can't take swipe memories until 8th level, at which point age swipe is permanent. Swipe memories is permanent because it doesn't list a duration; it is covered by the "otherwise, this ability functions as modify memory" clause and modify memory is permanent.

This isn't true, or at least not in the current playtest version. You can increase the duration to permanent, by taking a -4 penalty to your roll. You can also increase the duration to 1 day/binder level, by taking a -2 to your roll. However, if you choose to take no penalty, it still only lasts 1 hour/binder level. You could also choose to have it last 10 minutes/binder level still, if you wanted it to wear off after a short amount of time for some reason. I'd suggest adding a requirement that the character is still suffering from the aging effect, as well as having been targeted by it less than level days ago. It's also interesting that you can use this effect on someone who's had a spell making them older cast on them, incidentally.

I'm still waiting for an answer on whether it's an alternative use of age swipe, or whether you can do both with one swipe.

It might also be worth pointing out that the duration is permanent, lest DMs assume it's the same duration as age swipe.

Oh, and if this ability is updated to be memories of being older than a youth, then the "adolescence and adulthood" should be adjusted to just "adulthood".

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A leadership modifier is any of the bonuses found on that table in the Core Rulebook, like great renowned and such. If you're worried about the penalty, don't have Adults as cohorts and followers; Peter Pan didn't and everything worked out okay for him. ;-)

Sorry? I meant the penalties to your leadership score, which are currently also doubled. For instance, the character is guaranteed to take a -2 penalty for having a familiar, for a start. They'll also almost certainly move around a lot, and may not manage to achieve great renown, etc. Peter Pan wasn't exactly well known outside Neverland in the book, IIRC, and within Neverland only because half of the inhabitants were his followers! Would it be better to only double the positive modifiers?


Missed the edit window, but I've spotted a couple of issues with the later spirits:
1) Mascareri: bolster insight doesn't specify a DC.
2) Undying Soul: Technically, the points aren't currently removed from the defiance pool when they're dealt as hit point damage. Also, it's currently not possible to use healing on points in the defiance pool. Is that intentional?
3) Ravage Binder: Seems to be missing an introduction, and prerequisites.


pi4t wrote:
Ok. I am a bit concerned that unless the BBEG happens to be a child, [hide from adults] is basically 10min/level greater invisibility, albeit allowing a will save, as a second level spell.

A few points:

Greater invisibility comes online at 7th level. A Greensprout Rapscallion can get Hide From Adults ability at 7th level at the earliest.

Greater invisibility doesn't end if you attack (unlike normal invisibility), but if you do cause your invisibility to end, it only effects you. Hide From Adults will end if *any* of the recipients even touches another creature, much less attack one - even with a spell - and it ends for all the recipients of the spell. So if you cast it on an NPC and yourself, and that NPC touches a cat, the spell ends for both of you.


I noticed that some spells have a dagger next to them: †

The first time the dagger is used is on Page 10; however, I cannot find where the dagger is defined. I'm assuming that it references spells introduced in this book, but a definition should accompany a symbol before the symbol is used.

The asterisk* is used three times for three different definitions not is defined all three times, but I feel that two of them are unnecessary.

The first is in constellations ( * ) where the asterisk appears with spaces around it in the parenthetical. This usage is the most useful and references multiple constellations throughout the chapter.

The second is the alchemist (*) where the asterisk appears without spaces. It references only a single discovery, so unless new discoveries are going to be included, I feel as if it could be taken out and the one discovery that it applies to can just mention the info. May help with saving space.

The third is the rogue (*) where the asterisk appears without spaces. It also references a single rogue talent, so unless more talents are going to be added, it can be removed and the information can be condensed into the one rogue talent that applies.


bookrat wrote:
pi4t wrote:
Ok. I am a bit concerned that unless the BBEG happens to be a child, [hide from adults] is basically 10min/level greater invisibility, albeit allowing a will save, as a second level spell.

A few points:

Greater invisibility comes online at 7th level. A Greensprout Rapscallion can get Hide From Adults ability at 7th level at the earliest.

Greater invisibility doesn't end if you attack (unlike normal invisibility), but if you do cause your invisibility to end, it only effects you. Hide From Adults will end if *any* of the recipients even touches another creature, much less attack one - even with a spell - and it ends for all the recipients of the spell. So if you cast it on an NPC and yourself, and that NPC touches a cat, the spell ends for both of you.

Ah, I missed the final sentence in the spell's description. That seems reasonable, then.


Regarding Marat as he his in V2 of the playtest. I would not use him, ever. The problem with how he appeared in PMU: Vol 1/ playtest v1, as someone pointed out, is that the bonus was too good at level 1 (ie. +13 AC). But too many changes were made to the minor granted powers, and not beneficial ones.

What follows is my alternative:
Note that Marat's Body is based on the typical armor revelation of an oracle. Marat's Shield summons an actual shield, so two-handed weapon users cannot benefit, unlike before. Unimpeded is back for characters who can afford better armor. The starting AC bonus is +5, as with the V2 version, and tops out at +18, but some characters can afford better if they wish. (And this uses fewer words than the v2 version.)

Bodyguard: While bound to Marat, you gain the benefits of Bodyguardapg.
Marat’s Body: You encase yourself in Marat’s armored body as a full-round action, functioning as mage armor. At 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the AC bonus increases by +2. In addition, Marat’s body possesses light fortification at 4th level, upgrading to moderate fortification at 12th level.
Marat’s Shield: While bound to Marat, you gain the ability to summon a masterwork light shield as a full-round action, with which you are proficient. The shield vanishes if put down or if you summon a second shield. At 6th level and every four levels thereafter, your shield gains a +1 enhancement bonus to its AC, to a maximum of +4. In addition, Marat’s shield becomes a heavy shield at 4th level, upgrading to mithril at 7th level.
Unimpeded: While bound to Marat, your speed is not modified by armor and you reduce the armor check penalty that you suffer from wearing armor by half your binder level. Your movement is impeded normally by medium and heavy loads.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Comments about Ubro's channel energy ability.

I hope I'm not too late to weigh-in here, but what if we tried a middle-ground between "half max spirit level" and "3+Cha"?

Healing Surge wrote:
You channel a rush of positive energy as a standard action, functioning as a cleric’s channel energy. Use your binder level as your cleric level when determining the effects of your channel energy. You can only use healing surge to heal and creatures can benefit from your healing surge a number of times per day equal to 3 + half your maximum spirit level (round up). After using this ability, it becomes expended for 5 rounds.

This will increase the base number of uses to 4/day at level 1, compared to a cleric's 6/day (with 16 Cha). At level 20, the binder will have 8/day (occultists) or 6/day (non-occultists) while a true cleric will have 9/day (22 Cha).

This will help a binder's channel energy to be used to the benefit of a party more often (how the ability will normally be used) while also providing a steady increase of uses rather than the 3+Cha/day "lump sum."


ericthecleric wrote:

Regarding Marat as he his in V2 of the playtest. I would not use him, ever. The problem with how he appeared in PMU: Vol 1/ playtest v1, as someone pointed out, is that the bonus was too good at level 1 (ie. +13 AC). But too many changes were made to the minor granted powers, and not beneficial ones.

What follows is my alternative:
Note that Marat's Body is based on the typical armor revelation of an oracle. Marat's Shield summons an actual shield, so two-handed weapon users cannot benefit, unlike before. Unimpeded is back for characters who can afford better armor. The starting AC bonus is +5, as with the V2 version, and tops out at +18, but some characters can afford better if they wish. (And this uses fewer words than the v2 version.)

Bodyguard: While bound to Marat, you gain the benefits of Bodyguardapg.
Marat’s Body: You encase yourself in Marat’s armored body as a full-round action, functioning as mage armor. At 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the AC bonus increases by +2. In addition, Marat’s body possesses light fortification at 4th level, upgrading to moderate fortification at 12th level.
Marat’s Shield: While bound to Marat, you gain the ability to summon a masterwork light shield as a full-round action, with which you are proficient. The shield vanishes if put down or if you summon a second shield. At 6th level and every four levels thereafter, your shield gains a +1 enhancement bonus to its AC, to a maximum of +4. In addition, Marat’s shield becomes a heavy shield at 4th level, upgrading to mithril at 7th level.
Unimpeded: While bound to Marat, your speed is not modified by armor and you reduce the armor check penalty that you suffer from wearing armor by half your binder level. Your movement is impeded normally by medium and heavy loads.

What's the point of Unimpeded if Marat's Body functions as Mage Armor?


Because someone might want to use actual armor that provides a better AC bonus. 3rd or 4th level PCs might want full plate armor, for instance.


Makes a certain amount of sense. Guess it's a good way to lower penalties for wearing armor.

Contributor

Dexion1619 wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:


This is the first line of magic missile:

"A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage."

It is literally a copy-paste of the first line of magic missile, with the word "magic" replaced with "holy."

I would ask that you seriously reconsider this change. The ability to fire a single magic missile is, honestly, nearly worthless past level 1, and 1d4+1 vs 1d6 is (I believe) mathematically identical. The old ability was likely too good (It was by far the best ranged offensive Constellation Aspect bar non) but this change moves it only just barely above the level of a cantrip. 1d4 damage, plus 1d4 damage per two binder levels (as a ranged touch attack) would be much more in line with Fiend's Sow Destruction , Dark Beyond Void Ray and Dragons Draconic Breath .

Its not supposed to be read as "a single holy magic missile." Its supposed to BE magic missile, just with a clause that it deals additional damage to evil creatures.


While Marat's AC bonus is probably good against smaller creatures, but I have to admit I got more out of the blur ability (from Al'kra who is a 2nd lv. spirit so it makes sense) than the AC in a fight against big creatures. In any event, since I was turned into a vampire, I don't need Marat anymore unless I want to switch places with people. His AC boost didn't help much in my particular fight with said vampire, but, that was just one incident and it'd probably help a lot more against a bunch of mooks with baseball bats.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Dexion1619 wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:


This is the first line of magic missile:

"A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage."

It is literally a copy-paste of the first line of magic missile, with the word "magic" replaced with "holy."

I would ask that you seriously reconsider this change. The ability to fire a single magic missile is, honestly, nearly worthless past level 1, and 1d4+1 vs 1d6 is (I believe) mathematically identical. The old ability was likely too good (It was by far the best ranged offensive Constellation Aspect bar non) but this change moves it only just barely above the level of a cantrip. 1d4 damage, plus 1d4 damage per two binder levels (as a ranged touch attack) would be much more in line with Fiend's Sow Destruction , Dark Beyond Void Ray and Dragons Draconic Breath .

Its not supposed to be read as "a single holy magic missile." Its supposed to BE magic missile, just with a clause that it deals additional damage to evil creatures.

Oh, lol okay... I seriously thought it was 1 missile, never more!

Also, what areas still need proof reading, a second pair of eyes ect.? I have been busy this week with preparations for the new Job and haven't been able to keep up with everyone else's posts.

Contributor

Quick heads up, I'm not going to be responding to as many questions for a few days as I finish up the Stretch Goal spirits. Currently two are 100% complete and a third is 90% complete. When I get them done, I'll be doing a new Kickstarter Update and update the playtest to Version 3.

Question for eric, are we looking at the same version of Marat?

"Most Up-to-Date Version of Marat wrote:


Major Granted Abilities
Defend the Ward: You swap places with one ally within 30 feet as a move action, causing you and your ally to switch places without provoking attacks of opportunity. This ability is a teleportation effect. After using this ability, it becomes expended for 5 rounds.

Capstone Empowerment: You can use defend the ward as a swift action. At 10th level, you can use defend the ward as an immediate action whenever an attack is made against one ally within 30 feet. After switching places with your ally, you become the target of the attack instead.

Minor Granted Abilities
Alarm: While you are bound to Marat, you gain the ability to cast alarm as a spell-like ability at will. You cannot have more than one alarm spell active at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing alarm immediately ends.

Bodyguard: While you are bound to Marat, you gain the benefits of Bodyguardapg.
Marat’s Protection: While you are bound to Marat, you can protect yourself with his spirit or his armored body. If you choose Marat’s spirit, you gain shield as a constant spell-like ability while you are bound to Marat. If you choose Marat’s body, you gain the ability to summon a masterwork suit of scale mail as a full-round action. The armor vanishes if removed or if you summon a second suit. At 3rd level and every four levels thereafter, your scale mail gains a +1 enhancement bonus to its AC, to a maximum of +5. At 9th level, you can summon Marat’s body as a suit of full-plate instead of scale mail.

Marat’s Shield: While you are bound to Marat, there is a 5% chance per binder level (maximum 75%) that when you are struck by a critical hit or sneak attack, the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and the damage is instead rolled normally.


Greensprout Rapscallion, Page 287

Quote:
Improved Age Swipe (Su): At 3rd level, when a greensprout rapscallion makes a successful steal attempt using Tommy Greensprout’s age swipe granted ability, the greensprout rapscallion can increase the duration of the effect to 1 hour per binder level by taking a –4 penalty on his dirty trick attempt. This penalty decreases to –2 at 5th level and –0 at 7th level. At 5th level, the greensprout rapscallion can increase the duration of the effect to 1 day per binder level by taking a –4 penalty on his dirty trick attempt. This penalty decreases to –2 at 7th level and –0 at 9th level. At 7th level, the greensprout rapscallion can increase the duration of the effect to permanent by taking a –4 penalty on his dirty trick attempt. This penalty decreases to –2 at 9th level. At 9th level, the greensprout rapscallion can increase the duration of the effect to instantaneous by taking a –4 penalty on his dirty trick attempt.

I believe it's all supposed to be the steal maneuver, not the dirty trick maneuver.

Contributor

Dexion1619 wrote:

Oh, lol okay... I seriously thought it was 1 missile, never more!

Also, what areas still need proof reading, a second pair of eyes ect.? I have been busy this week with preparations for the new Job and haven't been able to keep up with everyone else's posts.

I'm going to update the text so it is clearer that it functions 100% as magic missile.

Spells (5), Magic Items (7), and Prestige Classes (6) could use more eyes. I feel like the spirit search is getting a few of editorial errors now, but almost no mechanical questions, which is where I want to be with those spirits.

Rereading Chapter 3 and making sure A) that everything makes sense and B) that nothing is missing or oddly worded would also be helpful.

Contributor

bookrat wrote:

Greensprout Rapscallion, Page 287

Quote:
Improved Age Swipe (Su): At 3rd level, when a greensprout rapscallion makes a successful steal attempt using Tommy Greensprout’s age swipe granted ability, the greensprout rapscallion can increase the duration of the effect to 1 hour per binder level by taking a –4 penalty on his dirty trick attempt. This penalty decreases to –2 at 5th level and –0 at 7th level. At 5th level, the greensprout rapscallion can increase the duration of the effect to 1 day per binder level by taking a –4 penalty on his dirty trick attempt. This penalty decreases to –2 at 7th level and –0 at 9th level. At 7th level, the greensprout rapscallion can increase the duration of the effect to permanent by taking a –4 penalty on his dirty trick attempt. This penalty decreases to –2 at 9th level. At 9th level, the greensprout rapscallion can increase the duration of the effect to instantaneous by taking a –4 penalty on his dirty trick attempt.
I believe it's all supposed to be the steal maneuver, not the dirty trick maneuver.

Yup. That's a pretty big miss.

Contributor

pi4t wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

Its +1 at 4th and 8th levels, for a total of Charisma + 2.

Ah. There seems to be an error in the following sentence, then:

"At 2nd level and every 2 levels afterwards,
this dodge bonus increases as indicated on Table X-X: The
Greensprout Rapscallion."

Yeah. Its missing completely from the text.

Quote:
Quote:
Basically, its extraordinary and you have the ability even if Tommy Greensprout is forced to leave you for some reason, whether that's from antimagic field, banish pact spirits, or something far worse.
I see. I still don't think it's a very useful ability - it doesn't come up very often, and when it does you've still lost access to nearly all your other class features, including Tommy's granted abilities. Would it be possible to buff it so that you retain access to Tommy's abilities even if he's dismissed for some reason? As it is, I can't see myself taking it - if the DM is sufficiently dispel-happy for this to be worth taking as it is, I wouldn't use a pact magic character at all.

I will take a look at it. Can't promise it'll change, because that's a pretty big chunk of the occultist's capstone right there, even if it only applies to one spirit.

Quote:
Quote:
Hide from Adults is basically hide from undead, but focused on age category. Greensprout Rapscallions will have a special clause that allows them to always be treated as a child for that effect.
Ok. I am a bit concerned that unless the BBEG happens to be a child, this is basically 10min/level greater invisibility, albeit allowing a will save, as a second level spell.

Bookrat got this for me; hide undead has a lot of restrictions attached to it, and it doesn't actually give you the invisible condition, so no sneak attacks or anything.

Quote:
You can't take swipe memories until 8th level, at which point age swipe is permanent. Swipe memories is permanent because it doesn't list a duration; it is covered by the "otherwise, this ability functions as modify memory" clause and modify memory is permanent.
This isn't true, or at least not in the current playtest version. You can increase the duration to permanent, by taking a -4 penalty to your roll. You can also increase the duration to 1 day/binder level, by taking a -2 to your roll. However, if you choose to take no penalty, it still only lasts 1 hour/binder level. You could also choose to...

I checked back to my last post to you and I don't believe I actually showed what the new swipe memories is going to look like. Here's what it looks like:

"Swipe Memories (Su): A greensprout rapscallion with this trick can use Tommy Greensprout’s age swipe granted ability to steal the memories of a creature that has been successfully targeted by an aging effect within a number of days equal to the greensprout rapscallion’s level. If the greensprout rapscallion succeeds on a steal combat maneuver check against such a creature using age swipe, he steals all memories that the target has of being older than its current, adjusted age category. A successful Will saving throw negates this effect (DC equals the greensprout rapscallion’s steal combat maneuver result). On a failed saving throw, affected memories are suppressed for as long as the target’s age is adjusted by age swipe; the creature can recall them, but only with great difficulty and questionable clarity. Otherwise, this effect functions as modify memory. A greensprout rapscallion must be at least 8th level before selecting this trick. "

The current wording is as such because there will be another trick that will let you attempt a second steal attempt against a creature that has been affected by age swipe that will let you reduce its age category from Youth to Child.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Dexion1619 wrote:

Oh, lol okay... I seriously thought it was 1 missile, never more!

Also, what areas still need proof reading, a second pair of eyes ect.? I have been busy this week with preparations for the new Job and haven't been able to keep up with everyone else's posts.

I'm going to update the text so it is clearer that it functions 100% as magic missile.

Spells (5), Magic Items (7), and Prestige Classes (6) could use more eyes. I feel like the spirit search is getting a few of editorial errors now, but almost no mechanical questions, which is where I want to be with those spirits.

Rereading Chapter 3 and making sure A) that everything makes sense and B) that nothing is missing or oddly worded would also be helpful.

I've been holding back waiting for the next release, only posting things that I happen to catch as I try to make characters. Currently working on a Greensprout Rapscallion. :)

I want to see all the updates before making any commentary on whether rules make sense.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
I see. I still don't think it's a very useful ability - it doesn't come up very often, and when it does you've still lost access to nearly all your other class features, including Tommy's granted abilities. Would it be possible to buff it so that you retain access to Tommy's abilities even if he's dismissed for some reason? As it is, I can't see myself taking it - if the DM is sufficiently dispel-happy for this to be worth taking as it is, I wouldn't use a pact magic character at all.

I'm going to try something different: I've folded that trick into the Greensprout Rapscallion's capstone, and have given it some much-needed love. Here's the new capstone:

"Greensprout Paragon (Su): At 10th level, all granted abilities that the greensprout rapscallion receives from Tommy Greensprout are considered extraordinary abilities when determining how they interact with an antimagic field. In addition, the greensprout rapscallion stops aging, will never die of old age, and always has access to Tommy Greensprout’s capstone empowerment; he no longer needs to perform a ritual once per day in order to obtain it."


Alexander Augunas wrote:

I'm going to update the text so it is clearer that it functions 100% as magic missile.

Spells (5), Magic Items (7), and Prestige Classes (6) could use more eyes. I feel like the spirit search is getting a few of editorial errors now, but almost no mechanical questions, which is where I want to be with those spirits.
Rereading Chapter 3 and making sure A) that everything makes sense and B) that nothing is missing or oddly worded would also be helpful.

I've been kind of not looking too deeply into spirits past 4th or 5th lv spirits since I won't have a chance to actually be able to play test them. That said, I may delve into them a bit more mechanically when I have the chance, just to see what's what and if there's anything confusing game play wise.

I'll look into magic items as well, but so far the chalk and maybe one or two items are all that I'd see any of my characters purchasing / making.

I've never used a prestige class in my life... so I'm not sure what help I can be here. I mean, I understand how they work just fine, but none have tempted me to leave a base class. Although the master chymist came close, but I never got to play my alchemist...

I'll look over the spells too, but I think I'll only do arcane. Never play divine casters so it'd be difficult for me to know if the strength / utility is on par with other divine spells.


Magic Items (Armor Special Abilities)

I will note that outside of the effects on binding DCs I’ve otherwise ignored a spirits favored enemies, so abilities that include these will naturally be less interesting to me. However, I’m going to do my best to stay objective for those that may be interested in focusing on the favored enemy / ally gameplay stuff. Also, these are just my opinions and do also note that I've yet to find many armor special abilities that I'd ever use (including paizo made) outside of reinforced and ones that increase skill. Even still the price generally never seems worth it to me personally. So take this section with a grain of sand from me. ;)

Armor Special Abilities:

Guarded: Interesting. If planned well enough, it could lead to fairly consistent +2 AC and 2 DR against enemies you face for the day. That said, in order to gain that +2 you may find yourself having to bind with spirits that may not be as useful against said enemies, or that you’re not interested in making a pact with that day. It could be good with some spirits whose favored enemies are more general, so that’s a plus and one could wait until they know for sure what the enemy is to make the pact and thus gain the +2 stuff for it, but that is risky as it’s easy to get jumped while not having your spirit bound.

I don’t personally think I’d use this armor enhancement, but for those who focus heavily on defense and don’t mind having to bind spirits they otherwise may not normally bind, it could be good. Cost might be a bit much, but I assume it’s based on Bane and this one can shift so I suppose it’s fair.

Monomorphic Seems very situational to me. As I read it, it basically makes it difficult to polymorph you. Now. I think this includes things such as flesh to stone abilities and obviously turning one into a newt, so that’s nice, but otherwise I don’t see this coming up much. (Is the new aging stuff polymorph? I’ll have to check in on that. If so, I understand this armor enhancement addition, but still feel like it’d be very situational unless an entire campaign is built on these types of hurdles.)

I don’t think I’d personally ever get this armor enhancement. But in the right campaign, it might work wonders.

Occult Augmenting Now this is pretty nice. At least for straight up occultists, it gives a solid, flat bonus to a bunch of useful things (especially saving throws). That said the soonest one could get this, it’d give a +1 bonus to such things. For saving throws this is still great, for AC its ok, for Initiative also ok.

This is an enhancement I’d consider getting. I probably wouldn’t, but that doesn’t mean much.

Occult Warding Seems like it’d be good in an occult heavy setting, decent to ok in an average game. Massive cost though and really one could just get cloak of resistance (as is the norm). I think they stack so there is that.

I wouldn’t get this enhancement, more for the cost than the effect. The effect is fair.

Planeswalking First armor enhancement that interests me and one I think I’d take if I had the gold (which is a lot of gold, but understandable for the ability). Plane shifting may not happen that many times at all in games, and one could get killed by the inhabitants rather quickly, so it could be considered situational. One doesn’t just go to a plane of earth for funzies after all. If I were in a game where I knew plane shifting was going to be a normal thing, I’d grab this in a heartbeat.

Otherwise, my inexperience in plane shifting and why I’d want to do it outside of getting away from an enemy (or back to your plane) I’d probably not get this, even though I think it’d quite cool.

Temporal Grounding Built for the new aging rules it seems and therefore relies very heavily on if your DM intends to use those rules or not. That said, one nifty little thing that could be fun, is getting this enhancement, making or having made a custom demi-plane that moves at a faster speed than the normal world. Then, when you step out of such speed world, you don’t age instantly.

Don’t think I’d really ever use this enhancement outside of that little trick, but in a game heavy with aging effect stuff, it MIGHT be worth the +3 enhancement ability add on.

Next up, Weapon Abilities.


Weapon Special Abilities:

Exorcising Could be very good for full on occult heavy games, where binders are very common and such. A (probably small) bonus to exorcise spirits regardless of how it’s done and very specific spell storing might be helpful if one is playing someone hunting down such people. I’d imagine a magus or paladin here.

In a campaign with low occult influence, where binders are rare, it’s next to useless. However, that’s because it was made for full occult games in mind I’m sure.

Question: Does this allow one to use Exorcise Pact Spirits (the secret) upon hitting the enemy in question? If not, this is notably less useful for actual occultists.

Exorcising Burst Basically an enhanced stronger version of what I said above. Probably more favored by binder hunters if they can afford it.

Occult Augmenting So basically it seems to be pointing back to the Accuracy Pact Augmentation. Thus, it depends on how many times you select the augmentation, on whether this would be good for you.

As it stands, you can either get a +4 weapon (that’s +4 to attack and damage) or you can get a +2 Occult Augmentation. Since this enhancement gives you plus half your augmentation bonuses, that means you’ll need to take the Accuracy Pact at least twice to get your monies worth (i.e. +2 from Accuracy Augmentation, +2 from magic weapon and +1 from Occult Augmentation = +5 altogether.)

Honestly though, I think it would largely equal out to the same quite a bit of the time. Those that take Accuracy Augmentation once, and get the +4 magic weapon are on the same footing as the above. IMO, accuracy augmentation is necessary at least once if you intend to get into the thick of it anyways, so one will likely take it when they can. Hard to judge how useful it is over a +4 weapon overall for me.

Occult Bane As the exorcising weapons, it relies heavily on if you are in a heavy occult influenced game. If yes, this can be very good. If no, then it’s probably not worth your gold and you should get bane for something else.

Spirit-Attuned Better than situational, yet still somewhat situational. It gives a plus to binding DCs, which is always nice although that bonus may be small quite often. The other ability, the one for damage reduction, could be very good under the right circumstance if you’re facing say a demon or even an angel. Situational in that you have to know what you’re facing ahead of time to get full use out of it, but if a slot is left open and one has ample time, this could come in handy.

Rings are up next it looks like. Should be fun.


Found one of the first high cost items in the pdf I want to go after just because it's fun. Loops... here I come. :D

Rings:

Band of Augmentation For 25,000gp you get a 3rd level pact augmentation (if you don’t already have the one the ring was made with / for). If you happen to come across one that is of an augmentation you’ve already chosen, it treats you as a higher level for that augmentation’s purposes. For a 3rd level augmentation, that means… its only useful with the Toughness augmentation since at 3rd level, it’s the only one that increases with level. The rest seem like they’d be unaffected otherwise.

Personally, I’m not sure a pact augmentation is worth 25,000gp a pop. They are essentially a feat. I get that. But at that price range, I’m not sure I’d be excited seeing it in a magical shop window. If the price were lowered a bit, say 15k or 18k I’d be tempted though.

Loops of Forced Requisition Very flavorful and quite fun to think about the possibilities. Now. Let us compare. This basically requires a will save of 18 for each round it is worn, presumably (although I’m not sure) until it is taken off. That said, during those rounds, if they make the save, they could just take it off. If they fail however, they are under the “love spell”, basically just falling in love with the Devotee. They also refuse to take said ring off and after 3 days its permanent. And it means permanent. It gives no indication that it can be broken by spells of any kind, so one better hope Robin gets to Maid Marion in time.

Now we look at the phylter of love. It has no save, but it requires the target to look at what you want them to fall in love with. Also, it gives a few spells that can break the enchantment. Not bad but not great right? Well… it’s cheap all things considered. Where the loops cost 56,000gp, the phylter of love costs around 3,000gp I think. You could make almost 18 phylters of love for that price. If you’re smart, you tell the people who fell in love that the pesky mages and clerics are trying to brain wash them with magic and ruin your love together…

Anyways. A hefty price, but the fact that if it sticks it sticks for good means it’s worth it. Nice.

Ring of Dancing Chains This will be in speculation as I couldn’t find anything on the “Dead Dancing” thing it’s talking about. 75k gp seems quite a lot for a whip ring…even if it is adamantine and magical. I guess it depends on what the “dancing deadly” thing does. So. I’ll leave it at, more than likely would sell immediately if found in a cave of a dragon.

Ring of Reincarnation[b] Ok. So. Normally I’m not a fan of Reincarnation, but this one is pretty sweet as it allows you to keep the race you’re playing, just, you turn into a kid. Hard to explain to the wife I’m sure, but at least you’re not dead right? Plus it works twice. Overall a good item with an interesting downside and it could be a great item for BBEG villains.

[b]Ring of the Secret Sect Ok. Well. At least it gives a couple bonuses that don’t rely specifically on organizations. However, since those bonuses are for a very specific thing, it can be very situational. I will say, since we haven’t seen pretty much any organization save for maybe 1, it’s hard to tell this items worth. It’s also reliant on how many organizations find their way into a DMs world. If a lot and it’s part of a plot, this could be a lot of fun. If none, well, maybe you catch an NPC in a lie about them being in the same organization? Overall, until we see info on organizations, it’s meh and I wouldn’t pay 10,950gp for it.

Looks like Rods are next, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow night some time. Also have no idea if any of this is actually useful feedback. But I'm too far in to stop now right? haha.

EDIT: Also. Just going to re-put this Secret Idea out there. A secret that lets you get a bonus feat. Sort of like that of the Rogue Talent. It'd offer flexibility to players, could be taken early if they have the prereqs and would help free up some feat room which I've felt the occultist sort of needs. Just an idea though... (one I like haha)

Contributor

Quote:
EDIT: Also. Just going to re-put this Secret Idea out there. A secret that lets you get a bonus feat. Sort of like that of the Rogue Talent. It'd offer flexibility to players, could be taken early if they have the prereqs and would help free up some feat room which I've felt the occultist sort of needs. Just an idea though... (one I like haha)

I've thought about it a lot, actually. Before we ever started the Kickstarter, I thought about it. With the current formatting of the binder secrets (in which they are essentially formatted like feats), this idea doesn't work well. It is odd to see an ability that is formatted similarly to a feat that tells you that you gain an actual feat as a bonus feat.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Quote:
EDIT: Also. Just going to re-put this Secret Idea out there. A secret that lets you get a bonus feat. Sort of like that of the Rogue Talent. It'd offer flexibility to players, could be taken early if they have the prereqs and would help free up some feat room which I've felt the occultist sort of needs. Just an idea though... (one I like haha)
I've thought about it a lot, actually. Before we ever started the Kickstarter, I thought about it. With the current formatting of the binder secrets (in which they are essentially formatted like feats), this idea doesn't work well. It is odd to see an ability that is formatted similarly to a feat that tells you that you gain an actual feat as a bonus feat.

Honestly I can see it working. As mentioned you can swap rogue talents for feats and vice versa. Even if you just allow it to be swapped for an occult feat specifically it would help builds out greatly and lower pressure on adding new secrets below level 5.


Fallenreality wrote:
Honestly I can see it working. As mentioned you can swap rogue talents for feats and vice versa. Even if you just allow it to be swapped for an occult feat specifically it would help builds out greatly and lower pressure on adding new secrets below level 5.

I agree; it would be beneficial for multiple builds to be able to swap out secrets for feats, even if only occult feats, as some Occultist builds are secret-heavy while others are feat-heavy.

From the builds I've made so far I don't see any balancing issues with being able to swap and it would give more flexibility at the higher levels as well once you start running out of your "must-have" secrets for a build.

That being said, I hope we still get Bountiful Abilities added in. :)


Alexander Augunas wrote:

Question for eric, are we looking at the same version of Marat?

Yes, I was talking about that version. Not only do you not get proficiency with the armor, but you suffer the ACP penalty and slow movement too, thanks to the loss of Unimpeded.

My version also deals with the request that someone else said for using Marat while using the beast shape ability of Fey Baraddu.

Thinking about it, perhaps Unimpeded should also grant Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency.


Orich wrote:
Fallenreality wrote:
Honestly I can see it working. As mentioned you can swap rogue talents for feats and vice versa. Even if you just allow it to be swapped for an occult feat specifically it would help builds out greatly and lower pressure on adding new secrets below level 5.

I agree; it would be beneficial for multiple builds to be able to swap out secrets for feats, even if only occult feats, as some Occultist builds are secret-heavy while others are feat-heavy.

From the builds I've made so far I don't see any balancing issues with being able to swap and it would give more flexibility at the higher levels as well once you start running out of your "must-have" secrets for a build.

That being said, I hope we still get Bountiful Abilities added in. :)

It's not balance that's the issue. It's formatting.

The idea against having a secret that grants a feat and having a feat that grants a secret is that secrets and feats are formatted similarly; therefore, people will get confused between the two and think that feats and secrets are the same thing.


ericthecleric wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

Question for eric, are we looking at the same version of Marat?

Yes, I was talking about that version. Not only do you not get proficiency with the armor, but you suffer the ACP penalty and slow movement too, thanks to the loss of Unimpeded.

My version also deals with the request that someone else said for using Marat while using the beast shape ability of Fey Baraddu.

Thinking about it, perhaps Unimpeded should also grant Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency.

So right now, as written, using Marat's Body penalizes the occultist with a -3 to attack rolls, all skills involving movement, and all str and dex based skills. At level 9, this penalty increases to -5.


Page 113, Sevnoir totem requirement says "you are a drown..." Probably meant to be Drow.


bookrat wrote:

It's not balance that's the issue. It's formatting.

The idea against having a secret that grants a feat and having a feat that grants a secret is that secrets and feats are formatted similarly; therefore, people will get confused between the two and think that feats and secrets are the same thing.

But that also applies to Rogue Talents and other similar class features--Binder Secrets are in a separate section than Feats and so any confusion should be minimal. You just need a binder secret formatted similarly to combat trick:

Quote:
Occult Secret: A binder that selects this secret gains a bonus occult feat (see Feats). This secret can be taken multiple times.

Contributor

Orich wrote:
bookrat wrote:

It's not balance that's the issue. It's formatting.

The idea against having a secret that grants a feat and having a feat that grants a secret is that secrets and feats are formatted similarly; therefore, people will get confused between the two and think that feats and secrets are the same thing.

But that also applies to Rogue Talents and other similar class features--Binder Secrets are in a separate section than Feats and so any confusion should be minimal. You just need a binder secret formatted similarly to combat trick:

Quote:
Occult Secret: A binder that selects this secret gains a bonus occult feat (see Feats). This secret can be taken multiple times.

Do you remember a few weeks ago when I said, "Hey, binder secrets are formatted like feats and not rogue talents, i.e. they have big, bold titles and prerequisite lines and benefit lines, should I change them to use the same formatting as rogue talents?" And how everyone said, "No." This is a consequence of that. The reason there is no binder secret that grants a feat has nothing to do with the mechanics and everything to do with the formatting. Having an ability that is formatted similarly to a feat state, "You gain a bonus feat!" is confusing.

Again, it has NOTHING to do with the mechanics and EVERYTHING to do with the layout.


Question regarding the Rings of Forced Requisition. Does the devoted know that something is happening to them when they make their will save? I mean, they're making a will save each round they wear it, but do they know that something's attacking their will when this happens?

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